• Can't post after logging to the forum for the first time... Try Again - If you can't post in the forum, sign out of both the membership site and the forum and log in again. Make sure your COG membership is active and your browser allow cookies. If you still can't post, contact the COG IT guy at IT@Concours.org.
  • IF YOU GET 404 ERROR: This may be due to using a link in a post from prior to the web migration. Content was brought over from the old forum as is, but the links may be in error. If the link contains "cog-online.org" it is an old link and will not work.

Aftermarket headers

chrismpero

Guest
Guest
Looking into replacing my stock manifold with an aftermarket header. Besides the ZX route we apparently have 3 direct fit choices that I know of, Area P, Delkevic and Black Widow. I would probably be using an Akrapovic slip-on as my muffler.. I've searched and seen opinions on Area p and Delkevic but not Black Widow. Looking into opinions on build quality on any or all of them. Thank you.
 
I went with the ZX-14 Headers and basically built my own mid pipes and mounts. I use Area P mufflers.
Lotsa work to get it the way I wanted it...
At the time, Muzzy and Area P were available. With Area P being top dog, and Muzzy eventually going away completely.
I think Delk. has surprised many with it's quality. Not perfect, but good for 1/2 the cost.
Yoshimira and Akrapovic headers are also being used by some.

If you do the headers, a Flash is almost mandatory.

As far as which one to get, It all comes down to how deep your pockets are.

NOTE: Many have discovered that just doing a Flash and a slip-on will make a Concours a completely different bike.
          Adding the headers will give you more peak power, maybe better power delivery, but you'll probably loose some low end torque. {Particularly if you opt for the big head pipe designs}

Ride safe, Ted
 
Thank you Ted. Main reason I want to replace is one of the tubes on mine is dented. I think it's robbing a little power although I can't confirm. I do know I find it runs out of steam above 110-115MPH, idk if its wind resistance or my fat 230 lb ass lol. Bike only has 20k on it, recent air filter, clean oil, no faults... I already have a MRP flash and know I would need a different one for a full system.
 
I have a Full Length Akrapovic Exhaust for a ZX14 on my 2011 C14. The fit with ever so slight muffler hanger extension fabrication for the single sided system. So, look at some Aftermarket Full Length systems for the ZX14's for more options.
 
We play in the twisties, and don't want to go to jail.. so we try to keep it below the ton..
So, I seldom get mine up that high any more.
But know I could whenever I want, even before the flash/headers.

It would take a major dent to kill that much power.
Pretty EZ to remove a dent anyway...

Your best/quickest/cheapest option is the Delkevics.
Not sure your Akrapovic will be direct bolt on though. Do-able, but not a direct fit.
  ie; Most header mid pipes are bigger than ZG-1400 slip-on mid pipes..

Ride safe, Ted
 
I bet that sounds and looks nice Pope!

Ted, Delkevic provides a link pipe for the factory pipe or slip-ons if my research proves right.

The dent makes the pipe looks like it would cut down flow 40-50% by the size of it. I was thinking of bringing my infrared thermometer with me on rides and check the individual temps of the pipes. That might help with a increased back pressure, lack of flow diagnosis.
 
It's possible, but I'm unaware that they sell the mid pipes alone.
  They usually want to sell mid pipe and muffler as a package...

I talked a lot with Delkevic as they developed the ZG-1400 header system.
  It is basically a copy of a OEM ZX-14R system with special mid pipe (single muffler set up), or mid pipes (dual muffler set up).
  (Issues; Pretty big head pipes, cylinders not paired like a ZG)

Important; Their ZG header mid pipes are not the same configuration {bends/diameters} as the stock ZG-14 Header to slip on mid pipe.
For instance;
    On Area P's: the Mid pipe and muffler for OEM system are 2" OD.
                        the Slip-on and muffler for their header is 2 1/4".

Bottom line; The header you purchase may or may not fit your Akrapovic muffler. Do a lot of research...

Ride safe, Ted   
 
I have been sitting on this info, waiting till I have a tune up and ready, but I'm still dealling with heart issues so things move slow for me right now.

  1) I do not recommend the Delkevic header. it is a large tube 4 into 1 with a bifurcating plate. It will work better above 5000 rpm, but I'm an "under the curve" guy for street use, and I don't like sacrificing throttle response and torque down low, at light cruise throttle, if I can help it.

  2) Some may remember this... certainly Connie Rider does... back in 2016 I approached AreaP about building a branded header for me. It would have 1.5" head pipes, be a tri-y, and exit so that you can use the midpipe / slip on you already own. Area P became busy and didn't even release any of their own pipes for a couple years, so that didn't come to pass BUT...

  3) The Black Widow Pipe is EXACTLY what I had discussed with Area P.  I already have one. And have one on my Versys 1000. The build quality for the price is amazing. I will be tuning to it, but I expect it won't be far off of the flashes I currently have. I do have a customer already running the BW header / area p slip on, and my Hammer flash. He's reporting more power coming on at 3500 rpm, and seems very happy with the setup so far.

4) Here's a link to their site https://www.blackwidowexhausts.co.uk/

  5) A great tip - order directly from Black Widow, not ebay. I bought mine through Ebay, it cost 325.00 US and was here in about 5 days. If you order from their site you'll save close to 100.00 US. WHAT A CRAZY GOOD DEAL!  :beerchug: :beerchug:

  Steve
 
Steve in Sunny Fla said:
I have been sitting on this info, waiting till I have a tune up and ready, but I'm still dealling with heart issues so things move slow for me right now.

  1) I do not recommend the Delkevic header. it is a large tube 4 into 1 with a bifurcating plate. It will work better above 5000 rpm, but I'm an "under the curve" guy for street use, and I don't like sacrificing throttle response and torque down low, at light cruise throttle, if I can help it.

  2) Some may remember this... certainly Connie Rider does... back in 2016 I approached AreaP about building a branded header for me. It would have 1.5" head pipes, be a tri-y, and exit so that you can use the midpipe / slip on you already own. Area P became busy and didn't even release any of their own pipes for a couple years, so that didn't come to pass BUT...

  3) The Black Widow Pipe is EXACTLY what I had discussed with Area P.  I already have one. And have one on my Versys 1000. The build quality for the price is amazing. I will be tuning to it, but I expect it won't be far off of the flashes I currently have. I do have a customer already running the BW header / area p slip on, and my Hammer flash. He's reporting more power coming on at 3500 rpm, and seems very happy with the setup so far.

4) Here's a link to their site https://www.blackwidowexhausts.co.uk/

  5) A great tip - order directly from Black Widow, not ebay. I bought mine through Ebay, it cost 325.00 US and was here in about 5 days. If you order from their site you'll save close to 100.00 US. WHAT A CRAZY GOOD DEAL!  :beerchug: :beerchug:

  Steve

I'll be keeping an eye on this for sure!  Maybe a winter in Nebraska upgrade...  One question, why do all the header manufacturers state that no tuning is required when obviously there will be?
 
Christopher said:
Looking into replacing my stock manifold with an aftermarket header. Besides the ZX route we apparently have 3 direct fit choices that I know of, Area P, Delkevic and Black Widow. I would probably be using an Akrapovic slip-on as my muffler.. I've searched and seen opinions on Area p and Delkevic but not Black Widow. Looking into opinions on build quality on any or all of them. Thank you.

AreaP Full system is sweeeeet!  Fit-up was a breeze and performance exceeded my expectations.  I see you want to use a specific slip-on, be informed: AreaP does not sell their headers separate from the mid-pipe and muffler; it’s an all or nothing package with the headers.  Also muffler is specific to the AreaP header flows and is different from their Slip-on so you can’t just immediately flip it as an AreaP slip-on to recoup some $.

As mentioned by some - AreaP price is a bit high but quality of materials, craftsmanship and the full exhaust port to muffler tip custom sheet performs terrific.  This is an entirely new machine!  Flashing the C14 is a prerequisite in the first place and flashing for the AreaP specific fuel mapping is required to gain full performance. 

Yes I would do it all over again.
 
turbojoe78_MA said:
Steve, I've got a Delkevic mid pipe and 18" CF oval can in the garage rafters.  What would be the advantage of the Black Widow over the stock headers?

aside from weight and no cat in the header, I would say the fact that the head pipe is +3mm  and the tri-y transitions are smooth. It's going to make more power on the dyno, and be great for light throttle riding, too. Eventually I'll get it up on the dyno and we'll get the numbers. It's not going to get to area P power, but it's going to retain the low end / light throttle that the area P loses. "area under the curve" . Steve
 
As long as it makes a hp or 2 more than  stock pipes and retains all of the magic in the MRP flash I'll be happy.  :)
 
Update:

I got a great deal on an Akra slip-on via the FB page. I was on the fence about getting the full system from Black widow anyways but now it's a non issue so now I'll be ordering just the header from them at some point. I've been hesitant as the only flash available for a full system is the AreaP one that i know of. I patiently await a flash for the BW style header full system.

Ride safe, stay safe

Chris
 
Christopher said:
Update:

I got a great deal on an Akra slip-on via the FB page. I was on the fence about getting the full system from Black widow anyways but now it's a non issue so now I'll be ordering just the header from them at some point. I've been hesitant as the only flash available for a full system is the AreaP one that i know of. I patiently await a flash for the BW style header full system.

Ride safe, stay safe

Chris

  I already have guys running a flash for that. contact me when the time comes and you're ready.
 
Steve in Sunny Fla said:
Christopher said:
Update:

I got a great deal on an Akra slip-on via the FB page. I was on the fence about getting the full system from Black widow anyways but now it's a non issue so now I'll be ordering just the header from them at some point. I've been hesitant as the only flash available for a full system is the AreaP one that i know of. I patiently await a flash for the BW style header full system.

Ride safe, stay safe

Chris

  I already have guys running a flash for that. contact me when the time comes and you're ready.

Roger that! I wasn't sure...

Silly question but as far as A/F ratios, the difference in flow between the Akra and BW muffler is probably negligible huh? I'm sure its close to impossible to make a flash for every header/pipe combo...

Thanks!

Chris
 
Steve in Sunny Fla said:
I have been sitting on this info, waiting till I have a tune up and ready, but I'm still dealling with heart issues so things move slow for me right now.

  1) I do not recommend the Delkevic header. it is a large tube 4 into 1 with a bifurcating plate. It will work better above 5000 rpm, but I'm an "under the curve" guy for street use, and I don't like sacrificing throttle response and torque down low, at light cruise throttle, if I can help it.

  2) Some may remember this... certainly Connie Rider does... back in 2016 I approached AreaP about building a branded header for me. It would have 1.5" head pipes, be a tri-y, and exit so that you can use the midpipe / slip on you already own. Area P became busy and didn't even release any of their own pipes for a couple years, so that didn't come to pass BUT...

  3) The Black Widow Pipe is EXACTLY what I had discussed with Area P.  I already have one. And have one on my Versys 1000. The build quality for the price is amazing. I will be tuning to it, but I expect it won't be far off of the flashes I currently have. I do have a customer already running the BW header / area p slip on, and my Hammer flash. He's reporting more power coming on at 3500 rpm, and seems very happy with the setup so far.

4) Here's a link to their site https://www.blackwidowexhausts.co.uk/

  5) A great tip - order directly from Black Widow, not ebay. I bought mine through Ebay, it cost 325.00 US and was here in about 5 days. If you order from their site you'll save close to 100.00 US. WHAT A CRAZY GOOD DEAL!  :beerchug: :beerchug:

  Steve


How do you  feel about ceramic coatings  the headers?

Years ago when I installed the ZX headers I wrapped them with heat tape,

after my Jack Russell tore into my bike chasing lizards ripping off some tape it looks like chit

for that price I'm intrested..
 
Steve in Sunny Fla said:
  I already have guys running a flash for that. contact me when the time comes and you're ready.
:hum:
note to self..... Might want to talk with Steve in regards to the differences between the BW full length exhaust vs. the Akrapovic ZX14 full length exhaust........ as in would this new in beta testing BW flash or would the Area P flash be a better flash for my bike which has the Akrapovic ZX14 full length exhaust....
 
Christopher said:
Thank you Ted. Main reason I want to replace is one of the tubes on mine is dented. I think it's robbing a little power although I can't confirm. I do know I find it runs out of steam above 110-115MPH, idk if its wind resistance or my fat 230 lb a** lol. Bike only has 20k on it, recent air filter, clean oil, no faults... I already have a MRP flash and know I would need a different one for a full system.
The replacement header won't fix that unless that is one major dent.
A stock C14 doesn't start to "run out of steam" until well over 130Mph in OD/6th.
Drop her to 5th and she'll scream all the way to 160+.
And that's with my fat 400lbs a** on my 74k mile 08.  :rotflmao: :motonoises: :great:
With the MRP and an aftermarket muffler the bike should be quite capable of 170+
 
Christopher said:
I finally pulled the trigger and ordered the BW header as a birthday present to myself.  :)
Very happy with the AreaP Full System performance throughout entire power-band.  If I were able to ghost ride my previous factory exhaust machine the full AP exhaust configuration would blow its saddle bags off.  You’ll love the improvement!!! 

Unless there is a DRAMATIC performance difference: BW and Delkevic at half the price or less make it very hard to justify the extra money spent on AP.

For sure many are looking to hear your impressions and report. 
 
all in all, it really reduces to a noise induced perception,,,, oh and I say this with knowing the profiles and programs of the C14.  it seems so, but the BUTT dyno, is subjective., and and a dyno really doesn't matter, nor does a mechanical dyno. based on parameters of your own riding habits.
 
Christopher - Enjoy noise I guess... Based on the parameters of your own riding habits of course.
 
I got the BW header installed, time consuming but not bad all n all. It came with a adapter for smaller diameter link pipes but my Akrapovic one fit perfectly. Very nice quality, clear directions, packed well and it got from the UK to Connecticut in 4 days!  With the DB killers out of the Akra its fairly loud, about 95db at idle and cruising with a few short bursts I saw 105db. I have yet to really get on it. Power gains are noticeable tho as I asked Steve upgrade the flash from MRP to MRP w/BW header. I can't wait to go on a extended ride.
 
Oh Great...
Now, we 're waiting on a  "from MRP to MRP w/BW header" Flash report.

Just pickin' on ya. 
Go do a long ride and enjoy.

Ride safe, Ted
 
Lol! It runs great, that is all. Also, I would not hesitate to recommend any of his flashes or the BW products.  If you're reading this and have yet to get a flash,  email Steve and get the ball rolling!

I wish! I'm currently sitting in a trailer,  track side at New haven station waiting to service a couple 4k HP  Diesels  :)
 
 
How do you  feel about ceramic coatings  the headers?

Years ago when I installed the ZX headers I wrapped them with heat tape,

after my Jack Russell tore into my bike chasing lizards ripping off some tape it looks like chit

for that price I'm intrested..
[/quote]

Ceramic coated headers significantly reduce heat. When I built the header for my C-10 I had it ceramic coated and I was amazes how much it reduced the heat.
 
I think it would help with the heat externally and MAYBE help a bit with performance but with the engine being so small in cc/ci it might not make a difference like it would with a V8.
 
Christopher said:
I think it would help with the heat externally and MAYBE help a bit with performance but with the engine being so small in cc/ci it might not make a difference like it would with a V8.
When I said C-10, I meant my Concours, and it did make quite a bit of difference.
 
Christopher said:
I got the BW header installed, time consuming but not bad all n all. It came with a adapter for smaller diameter link pipes but my Akrapovic one fit perfectly. Very nice quality, clear directions, packed well and it got from the UK to Connecticut in 4 days!  With the DB killers out of the Akra its fairly loud, about 95db at idle and cruising with a few short bursts I saw 105db. I have yet to really get on it. Power gains are noticeable tho as I asked Steve upgrade the flash from MRP to MRP w/BW header. I can't wait to go on a extended ride.

Looking forward to hearing how you like the newly found performance - once you can really get on it.

AREA P Full System greatly improved higher RPM pulls, stock >8K RPM fairly flat - with AREA P the pull is strong / constant up to 10K indicated on tachometer.  Never hit rev limiter but with no indications of letting up I expect pull would continue to red line.

95 dbA idle?  That is significantly louder than AREA P which is 86 - 87 dbA, stock 77 - 78 dbA



 
Looking forward to hearing how you like the newly found performance - once you can really get on it.

Me too!!


AREA P Full System greatly improved higher RPM pulls, stock >8K RPM fairly flat - with AREA P the pull is strong / constant up to 10K indicated on tachometer.  Never hit rev limiter but with no indications of letting up I expect pull would continue to red line.

95 dbA idle?  That is significantly louder than AREA P which is 86 - 87 dbA, stock 77 - 78 dbA

Yes, I was very surprised myself.

[/quote]

 
2 and Blue and Chris:

    Can either of you outline the differences between the area p header and the black widow header? What can be expected from each, performance wise?

    What criteria did you apply in purchasing your header? What were you trying to accomplish? What were you wanting to gain, and what were you willing to give up?

  Spoiler alert... I know the answers as to what each header does already. I'm trying to find out why people make the choices they do regarding header selection.

  Steve
 
Steve in Sunny Fla said:
2 and Blue and Chris:

    Can either of you outline the differences between the area p header and the black widow header? What can be expected from each, performance wise?

    What criteria did you apply in purchasing your header? What were you trying to accomplish? What were you wanting to gain, and what were you willing to give up?

  Spoiler alert... I know the answers as to what each header does already. I'm trying to find out why people make the choices they do regarding header selection.

  Steve

Differences: BW is a tri-y , Area p is not? Just a guess, honestly don't know.
Expectations: No heat sink, less weight, more power all around.
Criteria:  looked at reviews,  website  and took your advise as you said it was a great choice :)
Trying to accomplish: POWER! Lol
Willing to give up: A few Ruples in my pocket.
 
Christopher said:
Differences: BW is a tri-y , Area p is not? Just a guess, honestly don't know.
Expectations: No heat sink, less weight, more power all around.
Criteria:  looked at reviews,  website  and took your advise as you said it was a great choice :)
Trying to accomplish: POWER! Lol
Willing to give up: A few Ruples in my pocket.

    POWER ... Where in the rpm range, under how much throttle?
     
    Steve
 
Steve in Sunny Fla said:
Christopher said:
Differences: BW is a tri-y , Area p is not? Just a guess, honestly don't know.
Expectations: No heat sink, less weight, more power all around.
Criteria:  looked at reviews,  website  and took your advise as you said it was a great choice :)
Trying to accomplish: POWER! Lol
Willing to give up: A few Ruples in my pocket.

    POWER ... Where in the rpm range, under how much throttle?
     
    Steve

From what little seat time I had I would say every RPM I was at under 5k and less than 50% throttle.
 
Steve in Sunny Fla said:
2 and Blue and Chris:

    Can either of you outline the differences between the area p header and the black widow header? What can be expected from each, performance wise?

    What criteria did you apply in purchasing your header? What were you trying to accomplish? What were you wanting to gain, and what were you willing to give up?

  Spoiler alert... I know the answers as to what each header does already. I'm trying to find out why people make the choices they do regarding header selection.

  Steve

Steve Hi, I cannot inform of the differences between the AreaP and BW. 

My Expectation:  Improved performance especially top end.  I was unwilling to give up anything other than a few $$$.

Criteria: High Quality, High Performance Full Exhaust purposefully designed Exhaust Port to Tail Pipe for the C14. - - - Can other systems be refit from other models, sure however I wasn’t willing to try and beat the engineers that are designing this important piece of an engine’s performance.

I landed on the Area P after Market Research, (not many systems meeting my above) Testimonials of others with C14 / Full AreaP and Data from numerous professional tuners showing significant, usable performance gains.

Also Steve a clarification for those reading - AreaP To my knowledge doesn’t offer a header only product. 
 
2andBlue said:
Steve Hi, I cannot inform of the differences between the AreaP and BW. 

My Expectation:  Improved performance especially top end.  I was unwilling to give up anything other than a few $$$.

Criteria: High Quality, High Performance Full Exhaust purposefully designed Exhaust Port to Tail Pipe for the C14. - - - Can other systems be refit from other models, sure however I wasn’t willing to try and beat the engineers that are designing this important piece of an engine’s performance.

I landed on the Area P after Market Research, (not many systems meeting my above) Testimonials of others with C14 / Full AreaP and Data from numerous professional tuners showing significant, usable performance gains.

Also Steve a clarification for those reading - AreaP To my knowledge doesn’t offer a header only product.

    OK, let me ask this... you particularly wanted top end power. Yet you stated that you don't rev the bike over 10k, which is actually 9500 rpm (the tach lies) . So you're not getting the top end power you paid for.  Why are you not running the bike WOT to the limiter? that's what that header excels at.

    You also stated that you're not willing to give up anything. Yet you did give up quite a bit of lower rpm / light throttle response, as a consequence of the large tubes. Have you done any roll ons with other concours from say 3500 rpm to see what I'm talking about?

    Please do not take this as me bagging on the area p pipe or your choice. I'm not, and for peak power, it is the ONLY choice. But that's my point... you're not using it drag racing, or pinning the tach for your adrenaline fix. You're never getting the benefit of what that pipe was built for .

  Maybe you bought it because it showed the highest HP potential on a dyno chart. This is the common way guys select thier HP goodies. Did the big hp # influence your decision that the AreaP would be the best exhaust for your needs?
 
    Thanks,  Steve
 
Hello Steve - great conversation!

We will often / frequently be in the 7K to 9.5K RPM range mainly under acceleration then shift to higher gear or depending on tightness of corner to corner stay in same gear and use deceleration of engine braking without need to downshift.

When riding spiritedly (as much as I can get away with) we are rarely below 4.5K - 5K.

Have not tried any roll-ons or any comparison riding with another C14.

We do enjoy the ability to take off at a higher rate of acceleration especially above 5K RPM.  Yes true I am conscious to not hit rev limiter and know I am leaving some on the table.  Have never perceived hitting rev limiter to be a positive event on any other vehicles and have not hit on this machine.

Again great chat Steve.

 
2andBlue said:
Hello Steve - great conversation!

We will often / frequently be in the 7K to 9.5K RPM range mainly under acceleration then shift to higher gear or depending on tightness of corner to corner stay in same gear and use deceleration of engine braking without need to downshift.

When riding spiritedly (as much as I can get away with) we are rarely below 4.5K - 5K.

Have not tried any roll-ons or any comparison riding with another C14.

We do enjoy the ability to take off at a higher rate of acceleration especially above 5K RPM.  Yes true I am conscious to not hit rev limiter and know I am leaving some on the table.  Have never perceived hitting rev limiter to be a positive event on any other vehicles and have not hit on this machine.

Again great chat Steve.

  When you are running 7-9500, are you accelerating full WOT or less than WOT ? And what gear are you in? To consider this, I think it's typical to be in a lower gear and use a lot of rpm, but that doesn't necessarily mean a lot of throttle. You can get to a lot of rpm without WOT, particularly in the first 3 gears or so.

  Just so you know, I'm gathering Data for a project. There are no right or wrong answers. Just didn't want you to think the tone was "adversarial" which so far it seems you haven't and I'm glad for that.
  Steve
 
Steve in Sunny Fla said:
  When you are running 7-9500, are you accelerating full WOT or less than WOT ? And what gear are you in? To consider this, I think it's typical to be in a lower gear and use a lot of rpm, but that doesn't necessarily mean a lot of throttle. You can get to a lot of rpm without WOT, particularly in the first 3 gears or so.

  Just so you know, I'm gathering Data for a project. There are no right or wrong answers. Just didn't want you to think the tone was "adversarial" which so far it seems you haven't and I'm glad for that.
  Steve
With you (Steve) just gathering data for a project, I felt that I should chime in.....  :)

2011 C14 with ZX14 TB's. I'm currently running one of your (Steve's) earlier flashes and a PC-V w/Autotune (<- due to the ZX14 TB's).

Exhaust: Akrapovic Titanium Full Length ZX14 Exhaust

Differences: It's lighter that either of the other two that's being discussed.
Expectations: More free flowing exhaust & Weight Reduction
Criteria:  reviews, website (mainly from ZX14 riders)
Trying to accomplish: Weight Reduction, Upper RPM Performance
Willing to give up: Some Low RPM Torque

I do WOT up to the rev limiter in the lower gears when accelerating and where conditions allow.

I have my PC-V Autotune Maps setup for separate maps for each gear per discussions with Steve a few years ago.
  -The 1st-3rd gears are more performance/acceleration orientated.
  -4th is mostly in the 14:1 with some cells set similar to the 1st-3rd values.
  -5th & 6th are a little leaner below 3500 RPM for Highway Cursing.

Just wanted to mention this a Steve is gathering data for a project and hope that whatever he comes up will be a better setup for my bike, as I'd like to remove the PC-V & Autotune.
 
Good discussion adder Pope!

Steve for myself, more frequently when in the 7 - 9500 1st and 2nd gear and varying between 40% - 100% throttle depending on level of escape velocity, road contour.  2nd and 3rd usual acceleration onto highway and same throttle percentages.  Then nobody around 4th and 5th occasional tests of land speed 60% - 100% throttle.

Above accounts for probably 15% of our ride time (at most) rest is spent in cruise / sport tour mode which is usually 4 - 6000 and on average probably 15% - 40% throttle.

Love the bike, glad to have the extra on top end available when we want it and from my perspective the loss of low end you describe is not discernible and top end performance clearly enhanced. 

:great: Everyone Steve’s doing a project - chime in as relevant. :great:

Thanks Steve.
 
Steve in Sunny Fla said:
2andBlue said:
Hello Steve - great conversation!

We will often / frequently be in the 7K to 9.5K RPM range mainly under acceleration then shift to higher gear or depending on tightness of corner to corner stay in same gear and use deceleration of engine braking without need to downshift.

When riding spiritedly (as much as I can get away with) we are rarely below 4.5K - 5K.

Have not tried any roll-ons or any comparison riding with another C14.

We do enjoy the ability to take off at a higher rate of acceleration especially above 5K RPM.  Yes true I am conscious to not hit rev limiter and know I am leaving some on the table.  Have never perceived hitting rev limiter to be a positive event on any other vehicles and have not hit on this machine.

Again great chat Steve.

  When you are running 7-9500, are you accelerating full WOT or less than WOT ? And what gear are you in? To consider this, I think it's typical to be in a lower gear and use a lot of rpm, but that doesn't necessarily mean a lot of throttle. You can get to a lot of rpm without WOT, particularly in the first 3 gears or so.

  Just so you know, I'm gathering Data for a project. There are no right or wrong answers. Just didn't want you to think the tone was "adversarial" which so far it seems you haven't and I'm glad for that.
  Steve

I reserved a full area p system, with no obligation, thinking all the other systems were cheap and inferior in regards to quality and performance.  Has anyone done a side by side pros and cons comparison of the main systems available?  I currently have Steve MR flash on an otherwise stock machine and would like to pick up that top end power, but if I can do it for ~$600 instead of ~$1,000 that's a no brainer. 
 
Eric, if you have the area P full already there's 2 options from Shoodaben already:  The Hammer and the Mountain Runner Premium.  Both of these should give you that ultimate power using premium gas.  For myself, I think smaller header pipes to keep the low end grunt is more important.  That's just my opinion.  Of course we all have different wants/needs in our riding so I hope your bike sets the high bar for HP .  >:D
 
Bruce, I think that is incorrect.
Steve has a special (Area P} Flash for bikes with the full area P system.

Like you, I wanted to keep my low end grunt, so I installed a {OEM 2006 ZX-14} header. It has smaller head pipes/different cylinder pairing than the Area P.
NOTE: At the time, I also wanted dual mufflers...
I'm using the Mountain Runner Premium Flash in my bike.

If the $600 headers were available when built my set up, I think I would have selected the Black Widow headers over the Delkevic because of the smaller head pipes and cylinder pairing.
  ie; To keep my low end torque

Ride safe, Ted
 
Bruce_Reafsnider_TN said:
Eric, if you have the area P full already there's 2 options from Shoodaben already:  The Hammer and the Mountain Runner Premium.  Both of these should give you that ultimate power using premium gas.  For myself, I think smaller header pipes to keep the low end grunt is more important.  That's just my opinion.  Of course we all have different wants/needs in our riding so I hope your bike sets the high bar for HP .  >:D

I don't have the Area P yet, but I had pretty much made my mind up, until reading this last discussion...  We all want that max power at WOT near redline, but realistically I maybe do that a couple times a month.  And the Area P isn't cheap...
 
I'm going to give some ideas to think about. I'm NOT going to expand on it. y'all do it in your conversations, you'll get to where you need to be .

  1) area under the curve. It matters.

    2) be concise about how you ride, what you're wanting to accomplish, where you want any power gains maximized, and what you're willing to give up as compared to what another system offers.

    3) remember that it's not just an issue of RPM, it's also an issue of throttle amount... how much air is being moved through the air pump.

    4) do you really know how how / why headers work, various designs etc?

    5) Here's an example of a guy who doesn't understand, and ignores advise : claims he wants more low end grunt, and then chooses an area P full system. What's wrong with this picture?


    Steve
 
Great points Steve.  I'm looking at dyno charts on your site and I do see a dip in the line between 4,500 and 5,500 rpm with the full system.  And, that is typically where my rpms are when I ask for more power out of her, like passing cars on the highway. 
Your charts also confirm my "butt dyno" readings that say I only get more noise over 8,000 rpm and very little increase in power.  That's what I want to fix, and it looks like the full system does that very well.  So, if I spent $600 on one of the cheaper systems, and it still only makes more noise over $8,000 rpm, I've wasted my money.  (Except for losing ~20 lbs)
So, if anyone has installed a system with the smaller head pipes I'd like to hear what the power difference was in the top end. 
To summarize:  I'm willing to lose a little on the bottom to have significant gains on top.  I just don't know if that's a function only of tube size, or mainly losing the cats.
 
connie_rider said:
Bruce, I think that is incorrect.
Steve has a special (Area P} Flash for bikes with the full area P system.

Like you, I wanted to keep my low end grunt, so I installed a {OEM 2006 ZX-14} header. It has smaller head pipes/different cylinder pairing than the Area P.
NOTE: At the time, I also wanted dual mufflers...
I'm using the Mountain Runner Premium Flash in my bike.

If the $600 headers were available when built my set up, I think I would have selected the Black Widow headers over the Delkevic because of the smaller head pipes and cylinder pairing.
  ie; To keep my low end torque

Ride safe, Ted

Yeah you're right about the full Area P flash.  It was in the back of my mind because for now I only have a slip on installed.  Backing out now...

 
Not an expert, but think;
Tube size is only part of how a header works.
  Tube size/length/pairing/configuration/collector design/muffler restriction all work together with (fueling and the cam) to control the power curve.
    They must all work together.

Ride safe, Ted
 
When I bought my 09 used it had the full area P with PC 5 and auto tune, after Steve came out with his tune I waited till I thought all the bugs (if there were any) were worked out and shipped the ECU off to SISF and removed the  PC 5 and auto tune and reinstalled the secondary butterflies.  The only problem I had with the PC 5 was an occasional pop thru the exhaust under deceleration after the SISF tune this has never happened again.
Now with these new systems available I'm thinking of selling the area P and going to a system with the smaller headers for more low end power as I very seldom go over 8000 RPM (no need to) and most of the time ride two up.
Steve if you see this do you think the area P tune would work or should the ECU be updated for the exhaust swap.   
 
Gscott said:
When I bought my 09 used it had the full area P with PC 5 and auto tune, after Steve came out with his tune I waited till I thought all the bugs (if there were any) were worked out and shipped the ECU off to SISF and removed the  PC 5 and auto tune and reinstalled the secondary butterflies.  The only problem I had with the PC 5 was an occasional pop thru the exhaust under deceleration after the SISF tune this has never happened again.
Now with these new systems available I'm thinking of selling the area P and going to a system with the smaller headers for more low end power as I very seldom go over 8000 RPM (no need to) and most of the time ride two up.
Steve if you see this do you think the area P tune would work or should the ECU be updated for the exhaust swap. 

  Send the ecu back . BTW, selling the area P ought to get the Black Widow system paid for, or very close. The area P is still in high demand, and is the ONLY choice for those wanting max peak hp from their Concours.
 
So, other than weight savings, is there any advantage to the BW system vs. stock?  I guess I wouldn't have people ask me if it's an electric bike anymore :)
 
Eric said:
So, other than weight savings, is there any advantage to the BW system vs. stock?  I guess I wouldn't have people ask me if it's an electric bike anymore :)

I installed it recently, for me no convertor (no heat sink), more exhaust flow overall. Looks like better quality material than stock as well.
 
Steve in Sunny Fla said:
turbojoe78_MA said:
Steve, I've got a Delkevic mid pipe and 18" CF oval can in the garage rafters.  What would be the advantage of the Black Widow over the stock headers?

aside from weight and no cat in the header, I would say the fact that the head pipe is +3mm  and the tri-y transitions are smooth. It's going to make more power on the dyno, and be great for light throttle riding, too. Eventually I'll get it up on the dyno and we'll get the numbers. It's not going to get to area P power, but it's going to retain the low end / light throttle that the area P loses. "area under the curve" . Steve

Steve, with a full exhaust upgrade and flash, would the bike run cooler as well?  ie, breathes better?
 
Yall I havent been on here in a while so i hope you dont mind if i jump in on this discussion.
Ive been running the Area P and Steve's Area P flash on my 16 since late last fall. 
Im a bit of a power junkie so I absolutely love the big top end power I get and I certainly dig the unique sound the AP gives me.
Steve is spot on here though .. There is a trade off.  Im ok with it and have learned to maneuver the power curve . BUT
I would have seriously considered the Black Widow if I had the choice last year. Now that im running the AP ill stick with it.
I would not lay any money on low end roll ons against the BW.  I think the same bike with that pipe would get me every time.
Now on up on the big scary end i would throw down some dough.  I dont get to use that much. the roads get short and the curves start coming quick.
So you really wanna think about where you want to "use" that usable throttle before you start pulling plastics. maybe this helps somehow.


 
strum said:
Yall I havent been on here in a while so i hope you dont mind if i jump in on this discussion.
Ive been running the Area P and Steve's Area P flash on my 16 since late last fall. 
Im a bit of a power junkie so I absolutely love the big top end power I get and I certainly dig the unique sound the AP gives me.
Steve is spot on here though .. There is a trade off.  Im ok with it and have learned to maneuver the power curve . BUT
I would have seriously considered the Black Widow if I had the choice last year. Now that im running the AP ill stick with it.
I would not lay any money on low end roll ons against the BW.  I think the same bike with that pipe would get me every time.
Now on up on the big scary end i would throw down some dough.  I dont get to use that much. the roads get short and the curves start coming quick.
So you really wanna think about where you want to "use" that usable throttle before you start pulling plastics. maybe this helps somehow.

Thanks for jumping in.  It's good to hear from someone that's running the Area P!  It sounds like the BW would in fact be the better set up for me, but I do wonder how much improvement there will (if any?) in the top end power.  I grew up on 4 cylinder bikes and always expect that next level of power coming in around 7 - 8 grand, and on this machine that never happens.  :(
 
Eric said:
strum said:
Yall I havent been on here in a while so i hope you dont mind if i jump in on this discussion.
Ive been running the Area P and Steve's Area P flash on my 16 since late last fall. 
Im a bit of a power junkie so I absolutely love the big top end power I get and I certainly dig the unique sound the AP gives me.
Steve is spot on here though .. There is a trade off.  Im ok with it and have learned to maneuver the power curve . BUT
I would have seriously considered the Black Widow if I had the choice last year. Now that im running the AP ill stick with it.
I would not lay any money on low end roll ons against the BW.  I think the same bike with that pipe would get me every time.
Now on up on the big scary end i would throw down some dough.  I dont get to use that much. the roads get short and the curves start coming quick.
So you really wanna think about where you want to "use" that usable throttle before you start pulling plastics. maybe this helps somehow.

Thanks for jumping in.  It's good to hear from someone that's running the Area P!  It sounds like the BW would in fact be the better set up for me, but I do wonder how much improvement there will (if any?) in the top end power.  I grew up on 4 cylinder bikes and always expect that next level of power coming in around 7 - 8 grand, and on this machine that never happens.  :(

For the biggest top end power.. 6 grand and up WOT I dont think youll beat the AP. Because I havent ran the BW I can only guess but I expect the top end power will increase.  I dont think youll go wrong with either pipe but you have to decide where you want the most "usable" throttle control. Steve has tried to explain this a million times and Im not sure most get it.
  In these N Ga mnts. we ride pretty dang hard sometimes. And not bragging but I dont get passed much. Now what changed with the AP is ,Im  running a lower gear than I used to so that im in the upper rpms and I use all the trottle I can. Meaning (in laymans terms)  I have to gear down and run the dog s*** out of it. lol. But that said itll do it. 
So im getting some really great power I just have to take it off the top so to speak instead of haveing it avalilble at the lower end . Hope this helps.
 
Good summary STRUM - pretty much sums up my experience.  I would add, the C14 stock I found had more than ample torque down low and top end was, as I’ve stated several times -flat.  Given the fact the Full AreaP allows for better spooling I too find myself in a lower gear ready the opportunity to let her sprint.

Still wouldn’t mind some day doing a stock gear to gear roll on from lower RPM to see the difference.  Whatever difference down low there is - is dramatically evaporated above 5,000 or definitely 6,000.

Once over I’d do it again in a heartbeat, plenty torquey of an engine.
 
2andBlue said:
Good summary STRUM - pretty much sums up my experience.  I would add, the C14 stock I found had more than ample torque down low and top end was, as I’ve stated several times -flat.  Given the fact the Full AreaP allows for better spooling I too find myself in a lower gear ready the opportunity to let her sprint.

Still wouldn’t mind some day doing a stock gear to gear roll on from lower RPM to see the difference.  Whatever difference down low there is - is dramatically evaporated above 5,000 or definitely 6,000.

Once over I’d do it again in a heartbeat, plenty torquey of an engine.

My buddy has an 08 and we have done roll-ons in every range.  Every time we are equal  until we get up into the upper range then I start pulling. Roll-ons are funny though just a tad early on either part and the results differ.
 
Wingedspirit said:
Anyone have  power data on the Black Widow yet?

I plan on going to the dyno this season, I want to block off or delete the PAIR 1st though.  Will report back with #'s. All bikes are different as well as dynos but going anyways.
 
Christopher said:
Wingedspirit said:
Anyone have  power data on the Black Widow yet?

I plan on going to the dyno this season, I want to block off or delete the PAIR 1st though.  Will report back with #'s. All bikes are different as well as dynos but going anyways.
Where are you in New England?
 
Gixerhp said:
Christopher said:
Wingedspirit said:
Anyone have  power data on the Black Widow yet?

I plan on going to the dyno this season, I want to block off or delete the PAIR 1st though.  Will report back with #'s. All bikes are different as well as dynos but going anyways.
Where are you in New England?

Southeast Connecticut
 
Christopher said:
Gixerhp said:
Christopher said:
Wingedspirit said:
Anyone have  power data on the Black Widow yet?

I plan on going to the dyno this season, I want to block off or delete the PAIR 1st though.  Will report back with #'s. All bikes are different as well as dynos but going anyways.
Where are you in New England?
There a few other members near you
Im not riding much this year cause major carpel tunnel problems with my hands.
Southeast Connecticut
 
Gixerhp said:
Christopher said:
Gixerhp said:
Christopher said:
Wingedspirit said:
Anyone have  power data on the Black Widow yet?

I plan on going to the dyno this season, I want to block off or delete the PAIR 1st though.  Will report back with #'s. All bikes are different as well as dynos but going anyways.
Where are you in New England?
There a few other members near you
Im not riding much this year cause major carpel tunnel problems with my hands.
Southeast Connecticut

Good to know! Ugh that sucks, I have it slightly myself. You're able to wrench ok?  I have it from years of wrenching and playing drums. Both hands...
 
i just bought the black widow header direct from them. shipped same day. im using two brothers can/midpipe. i contacted black widow about adapters and quickly got a response. it bolts right up. black widow really wants to get into the game. i had a chat with sales and they are very positive about pr and supplying exhaust to the usa
 
Look forward Mav to hearing how you like the headers, performance and fit/ form.

BW sounds like a great supplier.
 
Also waiting to see dyno numbers from a bike with the Black Widow Headers.

From what I can see, the BW's are approx. the same design as my 2006 ZX-14 headers.
,,(Same head pipe diameter's, same cylinder pairing, no Cat, same head tube lengths).
The biggest difference is my ZX-14 headers have dual mufflers and the Black Widows run a single muffler.

I think the Black Widow is the optimum system for the C-14's.
It won't make as much peak Power as the Area P or the Delkevic, but it will give you better low/mid power, and peak will be close.

If you want more Peak power, the Area P {or probably the Delkevic's} will give you that, but they won't give the same low/mid RPM torque.

NOTE:
I now have Steve's Mountain Runner premium in my bike. I like it!!
I previously had his Mountain Runner Flash in the bike and it did well, but {with these headers} the MR Premium is definitely better.

Ride safe Ted
 
I should have gotten base dyno #'s when my bike was stock. I never thought I would have gotten a flash let alone a full system. Every dyno is different too so the numbers are subjective. Right now as it sits it has the BW header, Akra pipe and the modified MRP flash for the BW headers. There is slight popping as I have yet to block the pair so that will def throw the af ratio off but I would think the HP and TQ #'s wouldn't be affected. I gotta do something with the pair sys when I do my valve adjustment before this season.
 
The actual numbers you get, aren't as important as the shape of the power/torque curve.
After you do the run, you can compare your curve with other base line curves to see improvement.
It will be evident.

ie; While dyno number's vary, the plots are consistent.

Ride safe, Ted
 
what is the hot ticket on replacing headers. i have lower radiator mount removed but i still can’t get at 2 of the inside flange nuts. i decided to get the black widow muffler too.
 
Last edited:
did you guys remove the radiator?
need a tad more details
I did not remove radiator. To open up more space I used a bungee cord wrapped around the wheel to pull against ear on the lower radiator. This provided more than adequate space to get in to drop OEM and mount up the AreaP headers , expect to be the same for the BW headers.

Radiator removal is literally minutes to do BTW. Drain coolant from water pump plug, pop off hoses, remove the horn then the two mounting bolts atop the radiator.

Depending on maintenance record may be time to change coolant anyway.

When I installed AreaP the machine was nearly new so I did not want to dump and fill the radiator.

Try the bungee or drop the radiator.
 
I did not remove, just dropped it and let it hang by the hoses. I did get a zip tie and held it forward tho. FWIW, the left fan lead is short and came disconnected when I dropped it down. Luckily I found it and connected it when I was putting it back together. I looked for the R fan connector to no avail as its buried. Once I got it running I confirmed they both worked tho. Just some food for thought.
 
i got the headers installed. it is indeed a tri y set up. cylinders 1/4 on one y 2/3 on the other y.
these join in for the 3rd y to a single. i sent ecu to ivan for full exhaust flash. he called me and said my slip on flash was good enough due to smaller header tubes. we are gonna hookup in the fall for full dyno. midrange punch is awesome. bike was a little louder but still not ear hurting. my two brothers bolted right up. midpipe black widow sent for the black widow muffler not correct. im working with them to fix this. i had one header leak. had to loosen it all up and wiggle and curse to seat header tube. i will keep you guys updated.
build quality and welds were top notch. this is a very nice set up
 

Attachments

  • camphoto_1691952160.jpg
    camphoto_1691952160.jpg
    155.3 KB · Views: 168
  • camphoto_630072926.jpg
    camphoto_630072926.jpg
    142.6 KB · Views: 169
  • camphoto_162216788.jpg
    camphoto_162216788.jpg
    176.4 KB · Views: 166
also all tubes clear nicely. come with o2 sensor ports with plugs on each y. also in box lots of stickers, exhaust joint compound and nice black widow keychain/necklace doo/ dad. i put my fob on it.
 
Last edited:
Good info Maverick. I think Steve said the same about the flash {because of the size of the head Pipes}.
For comparison; Can you tell me the OD of the head pipes on your Black Widow system?

The OD of OEM head pipes is 1 3/8" {?? MM}.
The OD of the ZX-1000 Head pipes {that I have on my bike} are 1 1/2" (?? MM).
The OD of the head pipes on a Delkevic system are (I think) 1 9/16" (?? MM).
The OD of the head pipes on a Full Area P system are (I think) 1 5/8" (?? MM).
The OD of the head pipes on a Black Widow system are 1 ?/? ". (?? MM).

Ride safe, Ted
 
Last edited:
Good info Maverick. I think Steve said the same about the flash {because of the size of the head Pipes}.
For comparison; Can you tell me the OD of the head pipes on your Black Widow system?

The OD of OEM head pipes is 1 3/8" {?? MM}.
The OD of the ZX-1000 Head pipes {that I have on my bike} are 1 1/2" (?? MM).
The OD of the head pipes on a Delkevic system are (I think) 1 9/16" (?? MM).
The OD of the head pipes on a Full Area P system are (I think) 1 5/8" (?? MM).
The OD of the head pipes on a Black Widow system are 1 ?/? ". (?? MM).

Ride safe, Ted


OD of the BW head pipes is 38mm, same as the original zx14.

OD of the AreaP is 44mm.

OD of stock is 35mm

OD of Delkevic is 42/43 mm (depends where you measure)
 
Good info Maverick. I think Steve said the same about the flash {because of the size of the head Pipes}.
For comparison; Can you tell me the OD of the head pipes on your Black Widow system?

The OD of OEM head pipes is 1 3/8" {?? MM}.
The OD of the ZX-1000 Head pipes {that I have on my bike} are 1 1/2" (?? MM).
The OD of the head pipes on a Delkevic system are (I think) 1 9/16" (?? MM).
The OD of the head pipes on a Full Area P system are (I think) 1 5/8" (?? MM).
The OD of the head pipes on a Black Widow system are 1 ?/? ". (?? MM).

Ride safe, Ted
ok i will get 4 u when i get off from work
 
OD of the BW head pipes is 38mm, same as the original zx14.

OD of the AreaP is 44mm.

OD of stock is 35mm

OD of Delkevic is 42/43 mm (depends where you measure)
thank you Steve for the information I guess I don't have to get the measurement now, u beat me to it🤗
 
I'm taking moonshiner 28 up to the dragon late April riding all around there the next two days I'll let you guys know how it does. it better not rain this time either!
 
I
I'm taking moonshiner 28 up to the dragon late April riding all around there the next two days I'll let you guys know how it does. it better not rain this time either!
t's gonna pull like a train from 3500 up. IMO, the BW header is the best pipe diameter and layout available for this heavy sport tourer. To bad it took so long to come to market. I tried in 2016, but couldn't get areaP, delkevic or 2 brothers to build it. I never spoke with BW, but we must have been on the same wavelength, they released it in late 2019.
 
I solved the riddle. the Black widow mid pipe is the correct one. I did not notice it until I had the bike on the kickstand and notice the two brothers had a center stand pad bracket to keep it from hitting the pipe. the Black widow has the same bracket. I was trying to get that bracket and mount it to the stock exhaust mounting bracket. this would make the pipe look like it was totally bent wrong. Black widow uses the muffler as its main midpipe support. the two brothers has an extra bracket for stock mounting. the reason I did not notice this is because I had the bike in the center stand while I was doing the header swap. I have the bike on the kickstand and noticed it. my bad
 

Attachments

  • IMG_20210302_152913_989.jpg
    IMG_20210302_152913_989.jpg
    85 KB · Views: 159
Soooo; Correcting my note, and Putting it all together.
..The OD of the head pipes on a OEM C-14 system are,,,,,,,,(approx.) 1 3/8" {35 MM}. ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,(stock)
..The OD of the head pipes on a OEM ZX-14 system are,,,, (approx.) 1 1/2" (38 MM).,,,,,,,,,,,,{1/8" (3 MM) bigger than stock}
..The OD of the head pipes on a Black Widow system are (approx.) 1 1/2" (38 MM). ,,,,,,,,,,,,{1/8" (3 MM) bigger than stock}
..The OD of the head pipes on a OEM ZX-14R system are (approx.) 1 11/16" (42/43 MM). {5/16" (8 MM) bigger than stock}
..The OD of the head pipes on a Delkevic system are,,,,,,,,, (approx.) 1 11/16" (42/43 MM). {5/16" (8 MM) bigger than stock}
..The OD of the head pipes on a Full Area P system are,,,,, (approx.) 1 3/4" (44 MM). ,,,,,,,,,,,.{3/8" (9 MM) bigger than stock}

Ride safe, Ted
 
Last edited:
Very nice - looking forward to your ride reports. Ivan’s latest product for full AreaP is awesome, had stock product before also great so I looked forward to hearing the slip-on product.

How many miles on your machine? I see you mention a full dyno this fall, if you’re close to your valve adjustment I would suggest getting that in first.
 
Top