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Anybody else doing Roll-On (modification) comparisons?

connie_rider

Member
Member
2andblue; Ahh Haa. I see the method to your madness..
ie; The wife doesn't allow competitive accels, but spirited acceleration out of corners is ok.

This isn't quite the same as my Roll-on test, but it is a decent base line for a comparison later.
As Steve noted, it is above the prime RPM's where the Reducer would show itself.
But, it should show if the reducer works for your riding style.
And, momma is still happy.
 

2andblue

Member
Member
I'd put my 2014 BLACK C-14 with a stock exhaust and Shoodabeen flash up against anything with $ to back it up.
My fault for poking and picking at Ted "the truth is coming", blah blah blah.

No all out street racing anyone. I will tone my eagerness to see Ted handover the torch to a faster, stronger color..

Will be first to admit I enjoy a spirited ride, both my wife and I do. My wife is the smarter of us two, I admit it freely, and checks me when we get too hot or for safety of others following us - so no straight out street racing is allowed period. Slip the notion to a fellow rider "over the next series of miles we will do x and when" and see what performs better and where - I can get away with that... lol
 

2andblue

Member
Member
so you realise you're getting outside what the reducer is designed to do, correct?
If just put-put or cruising my shift range is usually 4K - 4.5K and have Quickshifter only set to engage above 4K. During decel if below 3500 - 3800 will downshift a gear.

To me there are two separate power bands on this machine, one 3300 - 4300 then 5400 to the 🌙. I prefer the higher band.
 

Steve in sunny Fla

Iron Butt
Industry Vendor
If just put-put or cruising my shift range is usually 4K - 4.5K and have Quickshifter only set to engage above 4K. During decel if below 3500 - 3800 will downshift a gear.

To me there are two separate power bands on this machine, one 3300 - 4300 then 5400 to the 🌙. I prefer the higher band.
When you are just put-putting around, You're using lower rpm and light throttle. That's the area the reducer should help in. That's the area the big header pipe is being lazy in. And I have to ask - as you asked a previous poster (but in reverse) are you maybe keeping more rpm's on it because it's lacking in the lower rpms?
Steve
 

ursharkfuel

God got one thing wrong: Stupid should be PAINFUL!
Member
I'm with 802740..
I'd put my 2014 BLACK C-14 with a stock exhaust and Shoodabeen flash up against anything with $ to back it up.
Once you've gone black, you'll never go back
Nick
2014 C-14 Black

Don't say that to Ted, he's brainwashed and thinks Red is fast and is well past the point of reason. He's so far gone he has his neighbors kids painting their bicycles red. He really needs an intervention...... :ROFLMAO:
 

2andblue

Member
Member
When you are just put-putting around, You're using lower rpm and light throttle. That's the area the reducer should help in. That's the area the big header pipe is being lazy in. And I have to ask - as you asked a previous poster (but in reverse) are you maybe keeping more rpm's on it because it's lacking in the lower rpms?
Steve
We should define better more RPM’s… I don’t find 4K to 4.5K shift point to be an excessive / high RPM when put-putting. Then above put-putting staying above 5K I have instant ticket ship.
 

turbojoe78

Member
Member
We should define better more RPM’s… I don’t find 4K to 4.5K shift point to be an excessive / high RPM when put-putting. Then above put-putting staying above 5K I have instant ticket ship.
When your just traveling down a long straight road, getting from place to place, (highways) what gear and rpm's do you usually travel at?

Most of my riding is commuting highways back and forth to work. I'm usually in 6th gear running between 3000 and 4000 rpm's.
 

2andblue

Member
Member
Unlike ones that can or do trailer most of our odometer (50% or more) is spent getting to POI.

In these settled miles, outside of spirited times or steep mountains, above 60mph we’re in 6th gear / on average.
 

connie_rider

Member
Member
I've been monitoring the discussions.
I think his Roll-on test will be good enough for a comparison.
ie; His (2and blue) method is Not as good as my way of doing it, but ehhhh'... <smarty eleck grin> 😆

Waiting for his repeat Roll-on Comparison.
Hopefully he (2and blue) will follow thru with some additional tests, soon.
NOTE: I also think he should also give us his thoughts on low speed/light throttle feel.

IMPORTANT:
Every header is designed differently.
,,What reducer works for one, may "will" be different for another.
,,,What 1 rider likes will also be different from another's wants..
(As I sed previously) This idea is a work in progress...
Lets find out if it works for differing individuals and differing exhaust systems.
ie; We need others to do some reducer installations, and then some Roll-On Comparison Testing.
Hint! HINT!!!!


Note; The Area P Header is the biggest tube'd header that I know of for the C-14.
The ones I know of; (Stock ZG, ZX-14, ZX-14R, Black Widow, Delkevic, Area P, Yoshimira, Muzzy)
So, it will take some testing to find out the best reducer size's.

By the way;
My RED bike has 2 mufflers. It has the ZX-14 Header.
I've been working on reducers for the 2 mid pipes.
{Steve's been helping me figure out the reducer size to try.}
We found only 1 commercially available size that almost fits in my pipes. I bought them immediately.. ($14)
Unfortunately, they don't fit tightly. So,,, I put them in my lathe and I'm modifying the reducers we bought.
,,,,(As usual), I'm (overengineering) the process.
,,,,,I am NOT a machinist!!
Eventually, I'll have an answer on mine...

EXCUSE : During this past week, and continuing; I've been having Kidney Stone issues.
It's not EZ to do anything while crying with pain.. {Gloom}

Ride safe, Ted
 
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Steve in sunny Fla

Iron Butt
Industry Vendor
Ted, I think there IS a formula that will work across the board. Remember the issue is to first find the reducer that doesn't' cost WOT power but also enhances light throttle power .

After the tests I've done the formula is that the discharge nozzle ID should be the same or very close to the OD of 1 header pipe.
This would be for a 4 pipe into 1 muffler system.


That same formula might work across the board, but what folks need to understand is that the idea is to stop light throttle reversion / passive EGR action through the exhaust back to the cylinders. The smaller you can go without losing top end power may be beneficial, but you'll be at the point of needing a dyno to see if you're starting to hurt the WOT power.

I also think there's potential for increased fuel economy.

Steve
 

laker9142

Member
Member
Look at what just showed up! Sorry to hear about the kidney stones Ted. I'm sure that's a pain. I am a machinist if you need any help.
 

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connie_rider

Member
Member
Uhh ohhhh. I see tinkerin' (and a re-match) comin'.. (y)
(I have Ideers) 😵

I finally passed 2 stones on Wednesday, so no Machinist needed there. 🥴

I have the reducers almost ready for final install in my headers (mine are the same headers as in photo)
I had to stretch the big ends of the reducers I bought. (to get them to fit ID of exhaust ports)
I made sleeves for the small ends. (to get them to the ID Steve suggested) (So, I can now test with 2 different ID's if needed)
Excuse; Other projects (and 1 week of stones) have been slowing me down.

Ride safe, Ted
 

connie_rider

Member
Member
Ok, back from the deer hunt. Stones have processed thru. Other projects done..
Will be working on the reducer again..

While I was away has anyone done more Roll-on test's or testing of Reducers?

Ride safe, Ted
 

Steve in sunny Fla

Iron Butt
Industry Vendor
Ok, back from the deer hunt. Stones have processed thru. Other projects done..
Will be working on the reducer again..

While I was away has anyone done more Roll-on test's or testing of Reducers?

Ride safe, Ted
Turbojoe did the reducer in his Black Widow system. He posted about it in the Black Widow torque thread in my Shoodaben area.

Steve
 

kzz1king

Member
Member
Ok, back from the deer hunt. Stones have processed thru. Other projects done..
Will be working on the reducer again..

While I was away has anyone done more Roll-on test's or testing of Reducers?

Ride safe, Ted
Bow hunting as I type. Pretty slow. Riding season over and none of my buddies will roll on with me! I will try next spring with a buddies Valkyrie.
 

connie_rider

Member
Member
Back from Mexico with another Roll-on Report.
Go to Reply #126 for previous test info.

This morning I completed the installation of 2 Reducers in my exhaust system.
Each Reducer has a 1.40" ID.

Ride report; The results are;
His bike now pulls away from mine (approx. 1 length) as we start the test.
At mid RPM's he stops pulling away.
At high RPM's my bike pulls up or ahead of his.

I'll wait for input from Steve/others before I try another step.
Right now, I feel the the 1.40" Reducers hurt my bike in the lower RPM Range.
It feels a little tiny bit sluggish at WOT/Low RPM accels.
At lower throttle settings, it feels about the same as before, but a twisty road is needed to evaluate that.
At high RPM's it did not seem to hurt the acceleration.

Ride safe, Ted

PS: My header is different than the BW/Delkevic/Area P as mine is a 4 into 2 system with small head pipes.
So, the results of my test may/will not be the same as results from the other headers.
 

Steve in sunny Fla

Iron Butt
Industry Vendor
Back from Mexico with another Roll-on Report.
Go to Reply #126 for previous test info.

This morning I completed the installation of 2 Reducers in my exhaust system.
Each Reducer has a 1.40" ID.

Ride report; The results are;
His bike now pulls away from mine (approx. 1 length) as we start the test.
At mid RPM's he stops pulling away.
At high RPM's my bike pulls up or ahead of his.

I'll wait for input from Steve/others before I try another step.
Right now, I feel the the 1.40" Reducers hurt my bike in the lower RPM Range.
It feels a little tiny bit sluggish at WOT/Low RPM accels.
At lower throttle settings, it feels about the same as before, but a twisty road is needed to evaluate that.
At high RPM's it did not seem to hurt the acceleration.

Ride safe, Ted

PS: My header is different than the BW/Delkevic/Area P as mine is a 4 into 2 system with small head pipes.
So, the results of my test may/will not be the same as results from the other headers.

So go back up to the formula of each reducer ID being = 1 header pipe diameter. Maybe even +.125". You're right, the dual muffler system and whatever amount of turbulance is going on as the flow splits is the issue. Still, I'm surprised low rpm suffered, I would have expected to see that on the top end, which it seems like you're not experiencing. I think it's possible that it's hosed up the jetting down low (rich) . Very strange that you're catching and passing at high rpms... since you were very even before, this to me means you are actually getting more power than before as the rpm's rise.

ETA: this is an experiment, correct? Next thing I would do is remove 1 of the reducers and go do the roll ons again.

Steve

Steve
 
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connie_rider

Member
Member
I'll admit that the results didn't come out as I expected.
I thought;
(low/mid RPM's would improve or remain the same)
(high RPM's would remain the same, or loose power)
ie; The results are the reverse of what I expected.

My "next step" thought was;
1) Install the 1.25" Reducers (and see what happens).
2) Remove the 1.40" Reducers (and see if the bikes repeat our previous tests)
I hadn't thought about removing 1 of the reducers.
That is an option I haven't considered, and I think it's a good plan.

NOTE: This discussion is primarily a Roll-on Test discussion.
I've been trying to explain the process, and get others to do tests and report.
That said, I'll re-post what I said after our second series of tests.

MOST IMPORTANT FINDINGS:
The (recent) Roll-on tests "clearly show" that the modifications made a difference.

Ride safe, Ted
 
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Steve in sunny Fla

Iron Butt
Industry Vendor
NOTE: This discussion is primarily a Roll-on Test discussion.
I've been trying to explain the process, and get others to do tests and report.




Ride safe, Ted

I think you're mostly going to hear crickets until you're done testing. Those who try this are the lab rats of the COG laboratory. Everyone else is sitting back and seeing what happens. Or they just don't care, but for such an easy mod that's not really consistent with the bikers I know.

Steve
 

connie_rider

Member
Member
No. Still on the work bench.
(I have someone help me get the bike off the bench as I dropped my C-10 while trying to do it alone)
Haven't found any help yet.
Mebbe today.
 

Steve in sunny Fla

Iron Butt
Industry Vendor
No. Still on the work bench.
(I have someone help me get the bike off the bench as I dropped my C-10 while trying to do it alone)
Haven't found any help yet.
Mebbe today.
Wow, we're getting old. I have a fork cartidge kit for my versys1000 waiting for installation... I can't put it on the lift and centerstand it yet, still to weak, post operation.

steve
 

connie_rider

Member
Member
Update; Didn't get it off the table.
Wasn't home/had to take care of some things for my Mom/neighbor not available.
Going hunting today, so prolly next week.

Other excuse's;
I'm retired. (I can always put something off, for another day) 🥴
My co-tester isn't available. (Younger, and still has to work for a living) 😆
Cold (Last night it got all the way down to 50* brrrr) 🤠

Ride safe, Ted
 
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texas.devops

Eager Upshifter in SW Houston
Member
Gonna drop this here for research purposes. Not sure whose '08 that is but it sure sounds nice! BW header and Delk can is a pretty sweet sounding combo. Not where I'm headed (investment wise), but interested to hear what y'all think.
 

Steve in sunny Fla

Iron Butt
Industry Vendor
100% true?
Not really sure how to take this. You're new, I've been a member since 2005. I don't know what info you have that would have you to question my honesty.

Of course it's 100% true.

I frequent all the Concours sites and pages. I know what goes on everywhere, not just here. Guys contantly call / email me for tech advise. I talk to a bunch of folks each week. Do I know all about that video? Yes, in fact the dyno chart from it is what I posted a few posts back. I knew about it from the owner before the video was posted. I had the dyno charts before it was posted. I talked with him before he even went to Moore's and told him how it would turn out. It went how I said it would. He got a couple more HP and his fuel economy is unacceptable. I even made a comment in the comment section of the video.

And what info do you have to question my honesty? I'd like to hear it. Please post it for all to see.

Steve
 

briev802740

Member
Member
Not really sure how to take this. You're new, I've been a member since 2005. I don't know what info you have that would have you to question my honesty.

Of course it's 100% true.

I frequent all the Concours sites and pages. I know what goes on everywhere, not just here. Guys contantly call / email me for tech advise. I talk to a bunch of folks each week. Do I know all about that video? Yes, in fact the dyno chart from it is what I posted a few posts back. I knew about it from the owner before the video was posted. I had the dyno charts before it was posted. I talked with him before he even went to Moore's and told him how it would turn out. It went how I said it would. He got a couple more HP and his fuel economy is unacceptable. I even made a comment in the comment section of the video.

And what info do you have to question my honesty? I'd like to hear it. Please post it for all to see.

Steve

I was asking if it was 100% true, not necessarily questioning your honesty as a person... a lot people talk on the internet. That person had an ecu flash he was not happy with. Got it dyno tuned and then posted how happy he was with it on YouTube. Your post made it seem he is not happy which contradicted his own review pinned on that channel. So yea, that part is surprising.

I think a lot of people would be interested in that scenario.
 

Steve in sunny Fla

Iron Butt
Industry Vendor
I was asking if it was 100% true, not necessarily questioning your honesty as a person.

If a person says something that's not 100% honest, then they are not being honest. case closed.

Trust me, I know a lot of truth of what happens in the concours world, including a real inconvienient truth that some of my unique work is in at least 2 others tuners files that they are making money on. And yeah... 100% true.

Steve
 
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briev802740

Member
Member
If a person says something that's not 100% honest, then they are not being honest. case closed.

Trust me, I know a lot of truth of what happens in the concours world, including a real inconvienient truth about one of the most popular tuners for this model. And yeah... 100% true. Be careful what you wish for.

Steve

hey man, im just a person who owns a concours. its odd to be warned to be careful on the internet like that. ive owned many bikes and haven't experienced a warning on a forum like this. in my opinion, if there is a known problem with anything that is popular with a specific service I would expect everyone to be up front about it. for example, if I knew that a specific tuner was providing a subpar tune, or a specific product was inferior, I would just state it . I would let the group of owners know of the issue I am seeing. that is one of the reasons we are all here for right?

idk man, I apologize if you took my initial response as anything but inquisitive. I am interested in tuning and services/products that are available for the bike we all share an interest in.

what is the real inconvenient truth?
 

Steve in sunny Fla

Iron Butt
Industry Vendor
hey man, im just a person who owns a concours. its odd to be warned to be careful on the internet like that. ive owned many bikes and haven't experienced a warning on a forum like this. in my opinion, if there is a known problem with anything that is popular with a specific service I would expect everyone to be up front about it. for example, if I knew that a specific tuner was providing a subpar tune, or a specific product was inferior, I would just state it . I would let the group of owners know of the issue I am seeing. that is one of the reasons we are all here for right?

idk man, I apologize if you took my initial response as anything but inquisitive. I am interested in tuning and services/products that are available for the bike we all share an interest in.

what is the real inconvenient truth?
apparently i was editing that post while you were posting this one. Read my edited post. the answer is there.

Steve
 

briev802740

Member
Member
others stole your work? that sounds pretty sticky. and that sucks
and not to depreciate that statement, but who? who should the owners here avoid as quality tuners?
 

Steve in sunny Fla

Iron Butt
Industry Vendor
others stole your work? that sounds pretty sticky. and that sucks
and not to depreciate that statement, but who? who should the owners here avoid as quality tuners?

The forum rules won't let me state who. I will tell you this... the original one is the original tune in the video we're discussing, the second is the one who posted the video, though he was copying the original tuners work, not knowing my work was in there. Still, he didn't return to a stock bin file, he built on the other tuners unique work. I got this info from the owner. Meanwhile I haven't taken 1 single map value from anyone else's work other than the stock bin file as a base. In fact my first tune predates all others currently tuning this model by at least 2 years. I have learned that this is a "buyer beware" sleight of hand business with some tuners. They take your work, and accuse you of taking theirs. The customers get bounced around like a beach ball.

Steve
 

2andblue

Member
Member
Trust me, I know a lot of truth of what happens in the concours world, including a real inconvienient truth that some of my unique work is in at least 2 others tuners files that they are making money on. And yeah... 100% true.

Steve
Steve,

I assume you are aware, the theft or fraud of intellectual property is a serious crime that the US government is investing significant resources to assist small businesses - see: National Intellectual Property Rights Center more about their mission here and here’s where you file a complaint to get resources to assist.

I think anyone can enter the claim if they believe IP theft has occurred not just the business owner… if someone is stealing from you Steve they’re stealing from others and should be reported, are you filing yet? Hope the links help.
 

Steve in sunny Fla

Iron Butt
Industry Vendor
Steve,

I assume you are aware, the theft or fraud of intellectual property is a serious crime that the US government is investing significant resources to assist small businesses - see: National Intellectual Property Rights Center more about their mission here and here’s where you file a complaint to get resources to assist.

I think anyone can enter the claim if they believe IP theft has occurred not just the business owner… if someone is stealing from you Steve they’re stealing from others and should be reported, are you filing yet? Hope the links help.

The issue here is that nobody's work in this area is patent protected or copyrighted. In order for intillectual theft to be upheld, you need a layer of protection. Example... I have an item that has been granted a patent. During the time the patent was enforceable, had it been copied I could seek some type of legal remedy - IF i had enough money to enforce the patent. That seems to be the part folks forget - in cases like this the only people to make money are the lawyers. But just like there's no legal protection of my work, There's also no legal reason I can't state the truth publically. I'm not slandering any person or company if I can prove what I say. Meanwhile, I have been slandered repeatedly, but took no legal acton because of the financial cost associated (yes, I've consulted lawyers). Like I said, the only ones who will make any money are the lawyers. Also, it seems the links you provided had more to do with issues like China stealing copywrited or patented materials and selling them back to us on a large scale, not something like we're discussing here.

I think we've gone full on thread hijack.

Steve
 

2andblue

Member
Member
The issue here is that nobody's work in this area is patent protected or copyrighted. In order for intillectual theft to be upheld, you need a layer of protection. Example... I have an item that has been granted a patent. During the time the patent was enforceable, had it been copied I could seek some type of legal remedy - IF i had enough money to enforce the patent. That seems to be the part folks forget - in cases like this the only people to make money are the lawyers. But just like there's no legal protection of my work, There's also no legal reason I can't state the truth publically. I'm not slandering any person or company if I can prove what I say. Meanwhile, I have been slandered repeatedly, but took no legal acton because of the financial cost associated (yes, I've consulted lawyers). Like I said, the only ones who will make any money are the lawyers. Also, it seems the links you provided had more to do with issues like China stealing copywrited or patented materials and selling them back to us on a large scale, not something like we're discussing here.

I think we've gone full on thread hijack.

Steve
Agree way off track - it happens.

Domestic or INTL you can file then the Feds get involved and do their thing. I would file if I were you, either way..
 

connie_rider

Member
Member
Not yet. (I know that it's been on the bench since Nov. 17,,,,,, Guess I'm a slacker)
Excuses;
I've been having kidney stone issues. (5 BB's so far)
I moved into the deer hunting mode. lots of deer to see, but no Mr Big.
I did some Thanksgiving blessings. (ie; Ate too much)
This week, I'm planning to take my mom to the Dr., then do a few more days of hunting.
Followed by; load some ammo and sight in a rifle. (We're trying to work up a load for a 307)
(Yes, I sed 307)

NOTE: I have cranked the bike and (with 1 reducer) it seems sharper than it did with 2 reducers.
Soon; I'll do a test ride, and see how it feels (ie; butt dyno test).
But I won't actually know anything until I do a roll-on-comparison with old "you-know-who".

Getting back to the discussion topic. Has "anyone else" done any Roll-on-comparisons?

Oh,,, and speaking of slackers; 2andblue; Did you ever do your reducer install, and repeat your modified roll-on test?
See post #145/(err) Oct 24..
ie; Will try the reducer see if there is a difference leaving corners same speed if I can pull away before top.


Ride safe, Ted <evil grin>
 

2andblue

Member
Member
Not yet. (I know that it's been on the bench since Nov. 17,,,,,, Guess I'm a slacker)
Excuses;
I've been having kidney stone issues. (5 BB's so far)
I moved into the deer hunting mode. lots of deer to see, but no Mr Big.
I did some Thanksgiving blessings. (ie; Ate too much)
This week, I'm planning to take my mom to the Dr., then do a few more days of hunting.
Followed by; load some ammo and sight in a rifle. (We're trying to work up a load for a 307)
(Yes, I sed 307)

NOTE: I have cranked the bike and (with 1 reducer) it seems sharper than it did with 2 reducers.
Soon; I'll do a test ride, and see how it feels (ie; butt dyno test).
But I won't actually know anything until I do a roll-on-comparison with old "you-know-who".

Getting back to the discussion topic. Has "anyone else" done any Roll-on-comparisons?

Oh,,, and speaking of slackers; 2andblue; Did you ever do your reducer install, and repeat your modified roll-on test?
See post #145/(err) Oct 24..
ie; Will try the reducer see if there is a difference leaving corners same speed if I can pull away before top.


Ride safe, Ted <evil grin>
Slacking / well sorta - been tied up like nobody’s business.
 
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