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Anybody else doing Roll-On (modification) comparisons?

connie_rider

Member
Member
After I bought my C-14, a Buddy and I would compare our bikes by doing 3rd gear Roll-On's.
ie; One of us would do a mod, we'd do a test, and the other would add the same thing, or install some other mod.

Our test consisted of getting the bikes rolling, put them in 3rd gear, let them stabilize at about 2000 RPM's, count to 3, and whack the throttles open.
We generally knew the result "way "before 10,000 RPM, but was fun to go there.
A roll-on takes clutch work, how a person shifts, etc out of the comparison...
Ok, it's not very scientific, but it was a good way to compare mods... (Sort of a poor mans Dyno)
We later did the same vs other bikes...

I'm about 215, plus gear. My bike is a 2014, w/early ZX-14 header, 2 Area P Mufflers, 50 series rear tire, MRA windshield, Mountain Runner Premium Flash, and the fastest Color {2014 red}..
(Yes, I know the red gives me an unfair advantage, but "ehhhh"...)

I've done pulls against several bikes; some were stock, some with Slip-on's, some with other Flashes, and 1 with a Yoshimira Full system and a Flash.
At this stage, only the Yoshimira bike is out pulling mine. {but I've added the MRP since we last met, so there is a re-match coming} 😜


Wondering; Is anyone else doing the same thing, and what mods seemed to do the most for your bikes?
NOTE: The idea here is not to see who's bike is fastest. It's to compare modification's..

Ride safe, Ted
 
Well, I guess you 2 will have to be on my list. <evil grin>
But I'm wondering more; who/what has been on your lists?
What mods made the most diference??

What started the Roll-on tests idea; was Steve as he built Shouldaben.
He found that some of his modifications {that seemed/felt good when riding alone} actually hurt performance.
ie; He sometimes lost low end torque to gain peak power.
By doing repeated roll-on's, he was able to decide what the different mods accomplished.
(maybe he'll post some of that info)

Ride safe, Ted
 
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Well, I guess you 2 will have to be on my list. <evil grin>
But wondering more, who/what has been on your lists?

What started the Roll-on tests was Steve as he built Shouldaben.
He found that some of his improvements that seemed good, actually hurt performance.
ie; He lost low end torque to gain more peak power. (maybe he'll post some of that info)

Ride safe, Ted
I am certain there are trade-offs in areas.

If you are asking above what I have done for power to the ground performance enhancement, would say nothing out of the ordinary:
  • Full AreaP Header / Exhaust & associated ECU Tuning
  • Healtech Quickshifter
  • Penske 8975 Rear Shock
As you stated this wasn’t a post on who has the fastest machine (so I won’t brag :devilish:) rather about performance / satisfaction with modifications. I am very satisfied with this setup.

AreaP has freed the power plant, especially top end, Healtech makes effortless exploitation of the power curve and then Penske holds everything to the ground.

Comparisons always fun and sometimes quite informative.
 
Comparisons always fun and sometimes quite informative. I totally agree.
Also agree that everyone has their own thoughts/preferences.
{Some (Non believers) don't realize that the
2014 Red "is" the fastest color} 😆

I suspect that your Area P bike would pull mine {much like the Yoshimira did}. {NOTE: It also had a Full Area P style Flash}
As my bike has headers with a different design/smaller head pipes, the question would be; "if"/when it would pull the most? <"grin">
A roll on between our bikes should give an indication of that difference.


Ride safe, Ted

PS: I'm not trying to start a challenge of my bike vs others..
The thought is to compare the differing modifications that all of us have done
 
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Then beyond just the initial pull I cannot say enough about the QS. Takes a bit of setup to get just right but once you are there - well that’s the point you aren’t there you are down the road in another gear. 🤪
 
The QS sounds interesting.
Luckily (& being a wise mad-man); I took the shifting out of the comparison with a 3rd gear roll on.. <evil grin>

Yoo hoo(??),,, Is anybody (else) out there?
SOMEBODY else must have done comparisons? and want to tell us of their mods??


Ride safe, Ted
 
I personally think 2000 rpm is way too low to start a roll-on test that goes to 10K.
Outside of taking off I never go below 3K, can you go down to 2K or lower when strolling Yes - but then I believe there are some hefty pressures that build up.

This is a torquey engine, for its design/ displacement but yes agree 2K is too low for a roll on.

BTW my shift minimum, if just putting, along on flat ground is 4K.
 
The torque peak of the C14 is over 6K rpm. So, if you start a roll-on test at 2000 rpm...your road speed has to over TRIPLE before you even get to the torque peak. It therefore really becomes a test of low-rpm pulling power and doesn't really indicate what is going on between peak torque and peak horsepower.
 
and the fastest Color {2014 red}..
(Yes, I know the red gives me an unfair advantage, but "ehhhh"...)

Ride safe, Ted

Ted my friend, we have covered this many times before - Red is NOT the fastest color. It can attract the attention of the highway patrol faster than a mobile doughnut shop, but that's about it when it comes to realtime performance. It is well documented here, not to mention Kawasaki is well aware that Silver is the fastest color by a wide margin. So much for wishing it was faster, but this IS unfortunately the real world......

Sorry
 
ursharkfuel; Surely,, you jest.. <grin>
{Yea, I know. Don't call you Shirley}.

All: From what I'm seeing in this discussion, no one else is doing a Roll-on as a test?

I personally think 2000 rpm is way too low to start a roll-on test that goes to 10K.

rogracer; You may be right about the 2000 RPM.
Others can do a roll on in any manner they wish.
I'm trying to get a discussion going to share some results.
I am not making rules. {Just noted the way we do it. (see below**)}
Differing methods can be used, and (if different than mine) the results should include the method that was used.

** fyi; When I first tried this, a Buddy and I compared our bikes in all 6 gears, and from differing RPM's.
Using 3rd gear @ 2000 RPM seemed to be the best option.
A stock C-14 pulls away very easily from 2k in 3rd gear.
ie; If a C-14 won't do this, It indicates that the mods that were made, hurt low end performance.

NOTE: We used 2000 RPM because we want to see "what" effect the headers/Flashes/mods have on low/mid range RPM's and when it initially occurs.
ie; Our hope is to see when the modification initially shows itself, and not have to go to triple digits.

Ride safe, Ted
 
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The torque peak of the C14 is over 6K rpm. So, if you start a roll-on test at 2000 rpm...your road speed has to over TRIPLE before you even get to the torque peak. It therefore really becomes a test of low-rpm pulling power and doesn't really indicate what is going on between peak torque and peak horsepower.
Not really what they are trying to accomplish. This isn't racing. it's comparing where various mods affect the power band. As an example, a roll on from 2k/3rd gear with a stock header and an area p header will have the area p bike left in the dust till about 6k, then it will real in and pass the stock headered bike. I did this many times. This way you can decide what's more important to you, more low end torque or more hirh rpm HP. Not everyone wants the same thing, in fact the c-14 owners who want more peak HP are in a very small minority.
Steve
 
Because of my riding style, I intentionally worked for a bike that kept more low end torque.
ie; I prefer low/mid range torque over peak HP and adjusted my bike for that.
The Roll-on's helped me determine what was working.

Little bit on my riding style;
{Our play area is primarily Northern Arkansas. (55 posted / 20-40mph suggested speeds in the twisties) "lots" of curves}
** We (generally) cruise at about 65ish, and use about 2x (suggested) thru the twisties, & then return to cruise speed..
***We (seldom) go over 80mph. (as we don't have a Get out of Jail Free Card)...
NOTE: I sed seldom, not never.. <evil grin>

I prefer to ride thru the twisties in a higher gear, using torque to carry me "smoothly" thru. (Smooth [old guy] style)
Many that we ride with, prefer a lower gear to pull them thru. (Hooligan [Daredevil] style)
ie; I use 4th and 5th, and they use 3rd or even 2nd in the same twisties.

We all stay together. So, either style works...
NOTE: When the groups go out to ride, we think of them as slow/med/fast. (We feel that we're the med group).

As "no one" else seems to be doing Roll-on's, {??}
,,,,,,,,,let's
(also) talk about your riding styles, favorite play areas, and bike Mods?

Ride safe, Ted

PS: A Roll-On uses WOT (Like a Dyno) and doesn't evaluate how the bike does at lower throttle settings.
The only thing {I know of} that does that, is "lots" of miles in the twisties.
 
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From 6K to 10K it is a 67% increase in road speed. 2K to 6K is a 3X increase in road speed. The vast majority of the test is performed way below peak torque, and only a relatively small part is in the so-called "power band". From what you say Steve, if the AreaP bike ends up winning by 10K, then the stock bike must not pull very far ahead in that *really long slow pull* from 2 to 6K. There just wouldn't be enough time in the short 6-10K burst unless the bikes where pretty close when they hit 6K. If you didn't state otherwise, Steve, I would have bet a stock bike would have won that contest.
 
My guess;
Think about the 6K as a pass point, not a "start" to go faster point.
ie; At 6K he passes the stock bike, so the Area P bike is already going faster at 6K.
,,, "But" he was going slower at the initial Roll-on {because of less low end torque} and had to make up the difference in order to pass at 6K.
NOTE: After 6K, he's already going faster, and then {because of a more rapid increase in HP} the faster he goes, the faster he gains momentum.

Ride safe, Ted
 
So that implies the AreaP bike is making more torque than the stock bike at some point well below 6K. Maybe starting at 4K there is an advantage? Maybe lower even? Maybe the stock bike only has the advantage at really low RPMs?
 
So that implies the AreaP bike is making more torque than the stock bike at some point well below 6K. Maybe starting at 4K there is an advantage? Maybe lower even? Maybe the stock bike only has the advantage at really low RPMs?

no, and you can look at the various dyno charts to see. The area p has a dip around 5000, even less than previously, but it comes out of it STRONG. It is not stronger than the stock pipe below that. In the roll ons I've done, the stock piped bike would be about 3 bike lenghts - maybe a bit more, by about 6000, then the areap p bike comes on strong, passes and gaps the stocker pretty bad.

The takeaway is that you can see where the power is concentrated for each setup. that's the purpose of it.

Keep in mind this isn't a race bike and most riders aren't spending much time at peak power / wot. Most time is running around 10% throttle or even less. BIG anything will hurt light throttle power. The roll ons are kind of a way to judge rideability, too. Personally I'll trade peak power for a higher average on the torque curve. Again, these are street bikes, not drag bikes.

Steve
 
Ahhh, soooo. (A dim light came on for me)

So, below 5k the 2 are somewhat even, somewhere before 5k the stocker will pull away, and just before 6k the Area P will gain momentum rapidly, pass the stocker, and continue to accelerate away?

Going back to my [old guy] riding style, vs Hooligan.
Assuming we're riding at my speeds;
In the gears I use, I primarily use 4k-5k in the twisties.
I seldom exceed 6k, and he "must" use a lower gear to keep RPM's at 6k or more.

Ride safe, Ted
 
Ahhh, soooo. (A dim light came on for me)

So, below 5k the 2 are somewhat even, somewhere before 5k the stocker will pull away, and just before 6k the Area P will gain momentum rapidly, pass the stocker, and continue to accelerate away?

Going back to my [old guy] riding style, vs Hooligan.
Assuming we're riding at my speeds;
In the gears I use, I primarily use 4k-5k in the twisties.
I seldom exceed 6k, and he "must" use a lower gear to keep RPM's at 6k or more.

Ride safe, Ted
They're not even close to even below 5000.
Steve
 
Damn...from 3 bike lengths back to a big gap...all in the span of a few seconds. That sounds like nitrous and a turbo kicking in...not just exhaust changes! Anyway, I do agree that rideability and torque at streetable revs is more important than peak HP...I never ment to imply otherwise.
 
Not a problem rogracer. Good discussion!
NOTE: That was exhaust changes "and" a Flash (built to optimize the characteristics of the Area P header's).

Steve; For clarity, your talking about a stocker? {possibly slip-on's but no flash}

I haven't compared my bike to a bike with a Full Area P system, so maybe (someday) I'll get to do a comparo.
I did do a roll-on with a bike that had Yoshimira system, and a special Flash.
(he pulled away smoothly throughout the RPM Range)
** I've now gone from a MR to a MRP and hope for a re-match someday. :devilish:

As I modified my bike, I have done multiple roll-on's with bikes set up in various ways.
I have compared to stock, stock with slip-on's, bikes with various flashes, and the bike with the Yoshimira set up.
Along the way, I was stock, stock with slip-on, stock with slip-on and various Flashes, header installed/2 different flashes/2 different sets of mid's and 2 different slip-on's.
My bike currently has ZX-14 header/no Cat/MRP Flash/2 ea. 2" mids & Area P Mufflers.

My last 2 Roll-on comparisons were with 2 bike's.
,,One had an Ivan's Flash and Slip-on. The other was a stock Connie.
I pulled away pretty rapidly from both, but neither had headers. {and [ursharkfuel] they weren't 2014 Candy Cardinal Red.} 😜
** I assume that they both hope for a re-match someday. 😏

PS: On 1 run each, I did let them begin accelerating just before I started my accell.
{I waited until their rear tire was near my front as I wanted a better comparo}
In both cases, my bike was able to catch/pass before the RPM's got to the 5k range.

Ride safe, Ted
 
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From 6K to 10K it is a 67% increase in road speed. 2K to 6K is a 3X increase in road speed. The vast majority of the test is performed way below peak torque, and only a relatively small part is in the so-called "power band". From what you say Steve, if the AreaP bike ends up winning by 10K, then the stock bike must not pull very far ahead in that *really long slow pull* from 2 to 6K. There just wouldn't be enough time in the short 6-10K burst unless the bikes where pretty close when they hit 6K. If you didn't state otherwise, Steve, I would have bet a stock bike would have won that contest.

Not sure about the drag strip or other venues, but what I noticed in my relatively small experiment pulling against Ted's red rocket is that when I opened up the throttle I got just a little chug and then the power came on. And even when the power came on it pulled hard but not nearly as much as Ted's in the 1,000 feet or so we tested. We ran it a few times and each time I did seem to pull ahead by a bit but just as I felt the power band climb I could see that Ted had already revved faster and was easily able to gallop away on me.

After our test runs I found my Black Widow slip-on had been delivered and installed it right away. Night and day difference from the seat-of-the-pants perspective, but I don't have any actual dyno data to back it up. Then I installed the baffle and ran a few "errands" to see the difference, and again that change was noticeable in the neck. The gurgle was still there off throttle, but the open pipe was unquestionably faster revving and smoother gear changing.

Parenthetically, I pretty quickly noticed that I had a tiny air leak around the seal of the mid-pipe and the muffler. I noticed it while cleaning and observed what looked like caramelized water droplets spreading forward on the mid-pipe just in front of the clamp. It wiped off with warm water on a damp cloth, which told me it was likely from the light drizzle I'd run into for about a half mile one afternoon. I grabbed the ratchet and socket and cranked them down after putting a thin coat of exhaust system sealer on the inside of the muffler. Problem solved as far as I can tell.

IMO there's always a question of distance for the tests. If we're talking about 100' the two bikes (bone stock vs flashed & full exhausted) might be similar, like Steve said with the advantage going to stock with its narrower piping. If we're talking about 1000' there's obviously enough of a distance for the less restricted motor to rev 10%-20% faster thus increasing the RPMs earlier than the stock bike by the 300' (or even maybe the 200'?) mark. Once that dynamic has begun the gap only increases massively by the the 1000' cutoff as the restricted motor putters behind.

They're still a lot of fun stock, but once you've tasted the well-breathing version of it you'll thirst for opening it up.
 
Not a problem rogracer. Good discussion!
NOTE: That was exhaust changes and a Flash (built to optimize the characteristics of the header's).

Steve; For clarity, your talking about a stocker? {possibly slip-on's but no flash}

I haven't compared my bike to a bike with a Full Area P system, so maybe (someday) I'll get to do a comparo.
I did do a roll-on with a bike that had Yoshimira system, and a special Flash.
(he pulled away smoothly throughout the RPM Range)
** I've now gone from a MR to a MRP and hope for a re-match someday. :devilish:

As I modified my bike, I have done multiple roll-on's with bikes set up in various ways.
I have compared to stock, stock with slip-on's, bikes with various flashes, and the bike with the Yoshimira set up.
Along the way, I was stock, stock with slip-on, stock with slip-on and various Flashes, header installed/2 different flashes/2 different sets of mid's and 2 different slip-on's.
My bike currently has ZX-14 header/no Cat/MRP Flash/2 ea. 2" mids & Area P Mufflers.

My last 2 Roll-on comparisons were with 2 bike's.
,,One had an Ivan's Flash and Slip-on. The other was a stock Connie.
I pulled away pretty rapidly from both, but neither had headers. {and [ursharkfuel] they weren't 2014 Red} 😜
** I assume that they both hope for a re-match someday. 😏

Ride safe, Ted

** I assume that they both hope for a re-match someday. 😏
LOL, you know it's true Ted. Soon we can try again. :^ )
 
I pulled away pretty rapidly from both, but neither had headers. {and [ursharkfuel] they weren't 2014 Red} 😜


Ride safe, Ted

Atomic Silver vs Candy Cardinal Red - are you serious.....they only made that color one year for a reason LMAO Honda probably gave them what they had left over when they cancelled the Pacific Coast 800.

A modified Candy Bird Connie vs a stock Atomic Silver would be close, but I would give it to the candy with the mods. If all things were equal, the rider of the SILVER Connie would be seeing candy bird red in his rearview.... :LOL:
 
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USF; as I always respect another's opinion,,, "You may be right".
(It's extremely unlikely) but it's a possibility. 🥴

I wanted to understand the data, so I went and researched Dyno Plots "everywhere" I could.
I particularly looked for Full Area P System Plots.
All plots (including the plots on Area P's site) showed a drop in torque at 4800-5000 RPM's, followed by a rapid increase.
NOTE: On Area P's site, it was more that the torque stopped increasing, than a actual torque drop. But their ECU was "not" flashed.

By the way; Comparing their plot of an Area P header and Un-Flashed ECU, with a plot of an Area P header and a Flashed ECU,,, is "a stunner"..
ie; A Flashed C-14 (that does not have a header) does better.

Ride safe, Ted

PS: TD902, Ya just gotta believeeee.
The filter you selected does not fit a C-14. This one does. but most of us are using stock or less expensive filters.
And; https://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/kn-air-filter-ka-1406?sku_id=857599
 
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LOL, can't quite wrap my head around the differential particle equation that leads to one light photon of a certain pigment reducing the friction of a motorized monster moving faster than the same monster with a slightly altered color code... but ok. LOLOLOLOL

One other thought I had about the 3rd gear roll-ons, in addition to the exhaust mods and flashes, is the airbox filter. I haven't swapped mine out yet, but given the upgrades some are making I think it only makes sense to swap this small item for a better breathing dust catcher.

Has anyone got a bead on an aftermarket that's less expensive than this one?
This product FITS your 2021.png
 
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Steve; For clarity, your talking about a stocker? {possibly slip-on's but no flash}

Ride safe, Ted

the specifics, my 2012 with the fully stock exhaust and my flash VS Mike Dionnes 2008 with a full area P pipe, power commander and flies out. My bike would leave his FAST at the first turn of the throttle, and we were probably starting around 3000 rpm. Seriously, about 3 bike lengths, then his would come on hard. In the lower gears when we did this, he wouldn't even catch me before the first shift came. When we did this in high gears (5 0r 6) where gaining rpm slows way down, mie bike would pull in front of his till about 100, then he'd catch me and pass me, and there was no hope from that point on.
Mike and I did this A LOT. It was some of the tuning for the flash early on in 2015. He was pretty frustrated that his bike didn't just run away right away. On Chris Jone's dyno, my bike peaked at 146 sae and his was 157. Mike ended up putting his flies back in, pulling the PCV, and having me flash his bike.
 
So, I guess the next obvious question is; did it do better after going back to your Flash etc?

TD-902; Remove your fingers from the order key at Revzilla.. (see below)



And this is our heapo cheapo; {This is in my bike}

OOPsss; Red Alert, RED ALERT!!!!
Ted may have made a mistake. (??)

According to K&N & BMC, HiFlo, the air filter I listed is different on Connie's after 2014?
Is this correct?

Ride safe, Ted
 
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So, I guess the next obvious question is; did it do better after going back to your Flash etc?

TD-902; Remove your fingers from the order key at Revzilla.. (see below)



And this is our heapo cheapo; {This is in my bike}

OOPsss; Red Alert, RED ALERT!!!!
Ted may have made a mistake. (??)

According to K&N & BMC, HiFlo, the air filter I listed is different on Connie's after 2014?
Is this correct?

Ride safe, Ted

So far the Hiflo does not work with the 2021, according to the Amazon site search... :^ (

1620783506052.png
 
I agree, plus the K&N, and BMC apparently don't fit a 2021.
But, I was unaware of a change in the filter in any C-14's.

Couple of things that may have been missed in the Full Area P discussion;
1) Steve's stock Connie was a stock exhaust "with his Flash" vs a Full area P system.
,,,,, Helps explain the better acceleration in lower RPM's.
2) 2andblue, (with Full area P system) has a minimum shift point of 4K, Mikes {Full Area P} was out accelled by a stock Connie w/flash at low RPM, rogracer thinks 2k is too low to do Roll-on's, & ursharkfuel thinks a Silver bike can out accel a RED one..
3) I prefer low RPM's and routinely shift/cruise below 4k.
4) Later Connies may have a different Air Filter?

All are indications of the performance differences.
All are indications of how a rider has adapted his riding to the performance diferences.
{or adjusted his bikes performance to his riding style).
Some are indications how fast a RED Connie is. (Sorry, I couldn't help myself) 🥸

A Roll-on test would have shown these differences.
Discussions about Roll-on's "DID" help us see the differences.

Let's keep talkin'.

Yoo hoo(??),,, Is anybody (else) out there?
SOMEBODY else must have done comparisons? and want to tell us of their mods??


Ride safe, Ted
 
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I've done roll-ons and all manner of comparisons with a friend in Wisconsin. The good thing is his bike has been the same since 2011, and I've been through 6 different flashes in that time. We both have full Area P's. He's got a PC5 with autotune, and we were exactly even back when I had a PC5 with the FuelMoto map. I've never been able to keep up since, until the next curve!

I'd love to do some testing with Ted. If he beats me then we'll keep going till the next curve. ;)
PS: A Roll-On uses WOT (Like a Dyno) and doesn't evaluate how the bike does at lower throttle settings

The newer Dynojet 250i dynos with the Eddy Current option do evaluate part throttle settings.
 
Was looking at a Black Widow discussion and see where some have changed from a Big PIpe header to a Black Widow.
Below are comparison's of the 2 types. {include partial throttle thoughts/comparison's}


On the Air filter question; The simplest way to settle it is;
Does anyone know if Kawasaki shows the same part number for their air filter in all years?
If so, the K&N/B<C/HiLo/etc just have an error in the fitment list.

Ride safe, Ted

PS: I do not think that a Roll-on is the ideal way to compare modifications.
{Like a Dyno Run} it is a comparison at WOT and doesn't show us partial throttle.
I feel the only way to evaluate partial throttle is to go out and ride.
(I think all of us are good with that option}.. 🤑
 
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PS: I do not think that a Roll-on is the ideal way to compare modifications.
{Like a Dyno Run} it is a comparison at WOT and doesn't show us partial throttle.
I feel the only way to evaluate partial throttle is to go out and ride.
(I think all of us are good with that option}..
Roll-on provides for a piece of the puzzle. Gas mileage, low-end / top-end, what exactly you want in ‘your’ desired machine.

For myself this machine has way more than enough torque so if with the Full Area P I am sacrificing something down low I, for one, am not detecting it and, two, on top end well we know that story, need some good 👓 to see this quickly pulling away machine. :eek:
 
I'd love to do some testing with Ted. If he beats me then we'll keep going till the next curve. ;)
Hi Laker. As usual, I have a comment.
The next curve.. You might have a point.
After all, I'm old and slow. 🤠

The newer Dynojet 250i dynos with the Eddy Current option do evaluate part throttle settings.
On the Dynojett 250i w/Eddy current, we'll have to discuss that a bit. :sneaky:
I agree that (for tuning) the Eddy current is great and a very useful tool.
Because it gives you the ability to add/control/measure load throughout the RPM range.
That extra load will effect the curve.
But the throttle is still WOT on most dyno runs/plots that we see.
(From our talks, I know you understand the difference, but many are not familiar with Dyno testing).

I used to do Dyno Testing before I retired.
NOTE: We were not tuning, we were comparing..
{We compared the plots and had little interest in peak HP}.
To ensure "comparable" partial throttle tests, a throttle stop was used in the system.
The throttle stop assured exactly the same throttle opening on each run. {to make the partial throttle runs comparable)

Ride safe, Ted
 
Roll-on provides for a piece of the puzzle. Gas mileage, low-end / top-end, what exactly you want in ‘your’ desired machine.

For myself this machine has way more than enough torque so if with the Full Area P I am sacrificing something down low I, for one, am not detecting it and, two, on top end well we know that story, need some good 👓 to see this quickly pulling away machine. :eek:

I agree, that yours "may" quickly pull away.
ie; {There's always that possibility, {even though yours isn't the faster Candy Cardinal RED}

But (because of better low/midrange torque and RED) you'll have to catch me first.
"And" Being a slow/old guy with many/sneaky tricks, I "may" get bored,,, and shut the throttle off before you get there... :ROFLMAO:
<Evil Grin>

Ride safe, Ted
 
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But the throttle is still WOT on most dyno runs/plots that we see.
(From our talks, I know you understand the difference, but many are not familiar with Dyno testing).
"Dynojet’s Load Control System uses the latest in eddy current power absorption technology, which combines with our easy-to-use software to give any technician repeatable, consistent results. The Load Control software provides a technician with the ability to control vehicle RPM or speed at any throttle opening. Through our exclusive closed-loop software design, the vehicle is automatically held at the pre-determined setting."

This is what I was reading from Dynojets website. It sounds like they can analyze part throttle settings. Probably some new fangled thing utilizing throttle position sensors. I may not be understanding correctly and yes we can discuss. But you are correct, the only dynos I've been around was years ago, and only did full throttle pulls.
 
I'll start with; I am not current on the new systems. Retired for dyno testing long ago. Not an expert in any way.
Just putting out what I used to do.
Sorry for the long post.......

Your right on the money about the capabilities of the Eddy current/other types of Dyno load control.
Basically, you dial in the loads that a vehicle sees at a given speed/gear/rpm. {duplicate road load conditions}
We did road tests to gather the data on each vehicle we tested.
We then, installed that data into the dyno system, and used that info to make the vehicle think it's under the correct load in any given circumstance.
(The problem is knowing what those loads are, and installing those exact loads on the dyno).

A dyno with load control can be great for tuning.
A tuner can pick a gear/rpm/etc and tune (in that RPM or throttle opening range) to get everything ideal.
When done, he can go to another RPM range and repeat.
The plots made from these are great for a tuner to see changes in the area he is adjusting.
BUT"; Most people don't have the knowledge to use the area plots.
MOST ask only; "How much HP does it make", & not "which has the best torque curve".
So, WOT Plots are the most common
.

NOTE: The same tuning can be done on the road, but it takes longer.
And, {in ways} the road is occasionally better as it's actual, not (hopefully) the correctly duplicated conditions.

When we were testing, we did all kinds of tests.
One of the main tests we did, was mileage accumulation.
Mileage accumulation tests; The vehicle's operated on the dyno's 24 hours a day / 7 days a week.
During those extended runs, the vehicles did accels/cruise/idle/etc etc etc.
NOTE: Each vehicle had air forced over it to duplicate/control operating temps.

In order to operate the throttle by computer control, we attached a servo on the throttle (to open and hold the throttle at varying/specific openings).
For manual accell tests, we installed a throttle stop on the throttle linkage. {It allowed the throttle to open to a specific setting}

Without one of these, you can do repeat tests, but you can't open a throttle to the exact same opening "repeatedly".
So, exact throttle opening's are more difficult. (But not impossible)

Ride safe, Ted
 
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I agree, plus the K&N, and BMC apparently don't fit a 2021.
But, I was unaware of a change in the filter in any C-14's.

Couple of things that may have been missed in the Full Area P discussion;
1) Steve's stock Connie was a stock exhaust "with his Flash" vs a Full area P system.
,,,,, Helps explain the better acceleration in lower RPM's.
2) 2andblue, (with Full area P system) has a minimum shift point of 4K, Mikes {Full Area P} was out accelled by a stock Connie w/flash at low RPM, rogracer thinks 2k is too low to do Roll-on's, & ursharkfuel thinks a Silver bike can out accel a RED one..
3) I prefer low RPM's and routinely shift/cruise below 4k.
4) Later Connies may have a different Air Filter?

All are indications of the performance differences.
All are indications of how a rider has adapted his riding to the performance diferences.
{or adjusted his bikes performance to his riding style).
Some are indications how fast a RED Connie is. (Sorry, I couldn't help myself) 🥸

A Roll-on test would have shown these differences.
Discussions about Roll-on's "DID" help us see the differences.

Let's keep talkin'.

Yoo hoo(??),,, Is anybody (else) out there?
SOMEBODY else must have done comparisons? and want to tell us of their mods??


Ride safe, Ted

Another item to add to this list, while not specifically having a roll-on relevance, might be low dust (or "dustless") brake pads.
I know we have dustless pads for high end sports cars, and am wondering if they've made their way into the biking world.
Sure would be nice to cut down on the wheel/tire cleanup after every ride.
As long as they perform as good/better than stock, aren't a gazillion $'s and don't warp the rotors.

Thx, AB
 
Another item to add to this list, while not specifically having a roll-on relevance, might be low dust (or "dustless") brake pads.
I know we have dustless pads for high end sports cars, and am wondering if they've made their way into the biking world.
Sure would be nice to cut down on the wheel/tire cleanup after every ride.
As long as they perform as good/better than stock, aren't a gazillion $'s and don't warp the rotors.

Thx, AB

Ya'll are gonna laugh at me.
I bought a set of inexpensive pads to use in an emergency.
Ended up installing them before a ride after discovering the OEM's were badly worn.
I liked them. {Kevlar/REALLY Cheap} Don't make the grinding noise of the OEM/Sintered Metal.
They lasted as long as the OEM's, and I thought they worked just as good. {??}



I looked up OEM Air filters. Apparently All C-14's use the same air filter.
(So (apparently) the K&N, and BMC for earlier C-14's WILL fit a 2021.

Ride safe, Ted

PS:
Thank ya'll for the compliments. "Blush"
 
Ya'll are gonna laugh at me.
I bought a set of inexpensive pads to use in an emergency.
Ended up installing them before a ride after discovering the OEM's were badly worn.
I liked them. {Kevlar/REALLY Cheap} Don't make the grinding noise of the OEM/Sintered Metal.
They lasted as long as the OEM's, and I thought they worked just as good. {??}

...
I looked up OEM Air filters. Apparently All C-14's use the same air filter.
(So (apparently) the K&N, and BMC for earlier C-14's WILL fit a 2021.

Ride safe, Ted

PS:
Thank ya'll for the compliments. "Blush"

Good info Ted. Did you notice any more or less post-ride mess on the rims after installing the Sumos?

I'm just guessing, but the eBay product mgrs likely don't know if those pads you linked are (or aren't) compatible. Their point of sale says they're not, but if you're using them and Mitsubishi's Nissin brake system hasn't changed over the past few years then it's a good bet they'll work on the 2021 too.

As for the air filter, I'm going to be ordering one now that THAT mystery has been resolved. LOL Only thing that's changed for the past few years has been the paint scheme it seems. :^ ) AB
 
Here's me asking what some might consider a dumb question: I've seen some older writeups about how the Kawa codes work, but my '21 has an elongated suffix after the ZG1400 part that's different from when I owned them in the past.

ZG1400EMFNL is the full model of my machine, but I can't seem to find out what that means or how I can use it to find matching parts or saddles, etc (other than listing new units for sale across North America).

Anyone have a clue? Thx, AB
 
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So far the Hiflo does not work with the 2021, according to the Amazon site search... :^ (

View attachment 29223
May be an image of 4 people


The one on the left is Hi-Flo, and the one on the right OEM. Notice how much more restrictive the screen is on the Hi-Flo. Also while the foam weatherstripping around the perimeter was the same thickness on both new, the OEM kept its original thickness better. Is it enough to hurt performance? I don't know? Just my observations
 
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That's a good observation.
I also agree about the holes on the support metal. Seem too small, but it a previous post, someone calculated the area and said that the were not a issue.
If they are, I'll remove mine before the next Roll-on.. <evil grin>

C'mon folks. if your not doing Roll-on's (against another Connie), how are you "comparing" your bikes?

Ride safe, Ted
 
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C'mon folks. if your not doing Roll'on's, how are you comparing your bikes?

Ride safe, Ted
I have joked about this a couple times but really the only comparisons we have done to our upgraded machine are below
  1. Magic trick (low mileage disappearance) of the rear tire
  2. Consciousness needed to prevent power wheelies through 2nd gear (although balanced smooth and fun - wasted energy)
    • Anyone who says a shaft bike can't wheelie (without a clutch-up)... you are wrong
  3. Acceleration force at which my bottom is pushed against up-step of seat
  4. Length of road needed to accelerate to an unsaid speed
  5. Increased gas mileage when taking it easy
    • We have seen fleeting glimpses of 51 - 53 AVG MPG doesn't last long, too much road to eat up
We ride 2-up (except for very RARE occasions), for a middle aged couple we probably have some of the wildest times enjoying this machine.
 
Thanx 2andblue. You answered my question and helped me make my point. (y)
Most are doing the same as you, plus their doing drag races or a ride thru the twisties.
NONE are a good comparison of mod's.
1); Most don't compare difference, (you judge effect by feel, or they involve rider skill/shifting/twisty etc.
2); Drag or twist; Being faster (thru skill) does not equally compare the difference in torque/power of the bike.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,The gear that you are in, or differing shift points, does not equally compare the difference in torque/power of the bike.

A Roll on "is" a comparison between 2 bikes, and rider skill/etc do not affect the results.

NOTE: I'm not saying that the other methods aren't indicators that you made an improvement, and their fun as heck.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I'm saying their not a effective way to evaluate the effect of a modification.

Ride safe, Ted

PS: I've done 2-up comparisons too. Wife was mad as heck. So, I did it again. 😜
 
Thanx 2andblue. You answered my question and helped me make my point. (y)

NOTE: I'm not saying that the other methods aren't indicators that you made an improvement, and their fun as heck. I'm saying their not a effective way to evaluate the effect of a modification.
Totally agreed, I cannot measure how much the performance difference made from previous as I don’t have a ‘ghost’ machine beside, or errrr behind me 😜.

There are some rather delicate, and surprisingly cost effective, instruments you can place on car that read from different telemetry, measure g-forces and speed then make calcs on performance. Could possibly work on MC too.

Supposedly quite repeatable - possibly a tool to play with and not spendy.
 
I recently learned of a free app that you can load on your phone.
Measures/records measure g-forces, lean angle, braking, accelerating, speed, and more.
If you had it on 2 bikes, I'm guessing that after a ride you could put the tracks on a computer, study the tracks, and compare the bikes to see if there is any difference.
Or, you can do a roll-on and know...

Ride safe, Ted
 
I wish I had another C14 owner nearby I could do roll on's with. It would especially be useful after you made some performance mods, to do it again against the same bike.
 
Back in 2015, while I was first building my flash and didn't have my own dyno, I used roll-on comparisons frequently. It just so happened that COG member Zarticus weighed about the same as me and our bike must have been very close in power, because on stock roll ons we would run together. Then as the flash was developed, I would outrun him by an ever increasing margin. Frustrating for Gary, but he knew I'd make it up to him in the end, and I did. Roll ons proved themselves in the real world. You have to establish a baseline, and not change anything on the control bike or any results are void.
All the answers don't come from a dyno graph.
Steve
 
I wish I had another C14 owner nearby I could do roll on's with. It would especially be useful after you made some performance mods, to do it again against the same bike.
Agreed....
Best to re-run with same the bike,
(if not the same bike) know "all" the different mods that are on each bike,
(Not as good, but comparable if all differences and mods are considered)
Rider weights should also be considered.

Explanation;
Recently I compared my bike with another. "Our intention was to compare 2 Flashes".
I had Area P Slip-On, he had a TBR Slip-On.
I had Flash X. He had Flash Y.
My bike pulled his easily / repeatedly.
,,,,, That seems to indicate that my Flash {X} was faster than his {Y}.
But, we assumed the 2 Flashes would be pretty similar? {There was a big difference}
So we decided to figure out the difference.

We realized that the difference was probably;
My bike has Headers installed and his doesn't.
,,, {Plus my bike is [the superior] 2014 RED}. <grin>
Bottom line; You have to look at the total picture. Our test was not an equal comparison.
Our Roll-on's indicated only that; my bike (with it's mods) was faster, "not" Flash X was better than Flash Y.

Ride safe, Ted
 
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May be a dumb question, but is everyone turning off their traction control when making roll-ons or leaving it activated? Haven't seen anyone talk about how deactivating traction control affects the torque delivery. Only reason it came up is it hit me that pulling wheelies would probably be tough to accomplish with it active.

Not that I'm considering pulling wheelies anytime soon, but some younger bikers were sharing their exploits and it got me thinking about how hard it would be for my 650+lb buxom brunette to expose her nethers from one wheel. It also got me thinking about suspension settings too, but now I'm maybe getting too techie?

How much impact does a tuned suspension have on getting the torque to the tarmac vs a factory setup?

Inquiring minds... yada yada yada. LOL :^ )
 
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Turn KTRC off for longer wheelies or for high acceleration otherwise you can do shorter wheelies such as ‘skipping wheelie’ e.g. exiting a corner with high throttle) or at high at speed without setting off the KTRC.

I have though activated KTRC a couple times but it takes a lot if you are already moving. I don’t get into the dumping the clutch deal I would expect that would activate KTRC immediately.
 
Roll-on Test report;
At the National, David and I got a chance to compare our bikes/systems.
"Our intention was to compare 2 header Systems".
** I have a 2006 ZX-14 Header with 2 Area P Slip-On's.
** He has a Full Area P Header System with the a single/larger Area P Slip-On.

Per my other comparisons; we started our comparison at 2000 RPM's in 3rd gear..
From 2000 RPM's, we expected my bike to initially pull ahead (because of the smaller tube size) and his to pass me at approx. 5000 RPM's (because of the/larger/better designed system).
But it didn't happen as we expected.
Yikes!

ie; My bike initially pulled ahead (by approx. 2 bike lengths) and then his bike matched my acceleration, but did gain on me.
{2000-8000 RPM Range}

We pondered this and decided to try another run from 4500 RPM's in 3rd gear.

From 4500 RPM's, we expected his bike to immediately pull ahead (because of the/larger/better designed system) and continue to pull away from me.
But {AGAIN} it didn't happen as we expected. 1624144614909.png x2
ie; After an instant, my bike pulled ahead by about 1/2 Length, and then his bike matched my acceleration, but did gain on me.
{4500 - 10,000 RPM Range}

,,,,, This comparison seems to indicate that my ZX-14 Header System was faster than his Full Area P Header System. 1624144685495.png
But {as I sed} the results were NOT what we expected. 1624145159304.png

So we decided to list the variables and try to figure out why we got the results we did.
Variables;
My bike is low miles (25,000, and his is high miles 150,000+)
I have Steve's Mountain Runner Premium Flash and he has Ivan's Area P System Flash.
My bike is [the superior] 2014 RED, and his is Silverdammit}. <sly grin>

Bottom line; If you look at the total picture. Our test was not exactly an equal comparison.
Our Roll-on's indicated only that; my bike (with it's mods) was faster, than his bike (with it's mods). 1624145398732.png

But, the results sure made me happy! <evil grin>

Your thoughts on our comparison??

Ride safe, Ted

PS: Is anybody else doing comparison Roll-on's??
 

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Ted's account is accurate. I was disappointed but not devastated. A half a bike link or even a full bike length at 120 in 3rd doesn't effect the twisties much. But bragging rights go to Ted, for now. And that 2014 red is sharp and somewhat uncommon I think. And that home made header is impressive. We'll do some more 'testing' at the FFF.
 
Ted my wife and I celebrate each thousand miles as another bike year - e.g. our 2017 ‘Blue’ recently turned 37 Yrs Old (37,000 miles)

Now that we have the age naming nomenclature understood - from what I read above it seems you are telling me that a 150 yr old bike did not let you drive away :unsure:

How about you pick on a bike a little closer your own age - see you at National next year, or sooner…

Now that I have that out of my system 😊.. Thanks for sharing the comparison, certainly very interesting. Glad to hear of the fun and boys just being boys..
 
Ted my wife and I celebrate each thousand miles as another bike year - e.g. our 2017 ‘Blue’ recently turned 37 Yrs Old (37,000 miles)

Now that we have the age naming nomenclature understood - from what I read above it seems you are telling me that a 150 yr old bike did not let you drive away :unsure:

How about you pick on a bike a little closer your own age - see you at National next year, or sooner…

Now that I have that out of my system 😊.. Thanks for sharing the comparison, certainly very interesting. Glad to hear of the fun and boys just being boys..

THAT is hilarious! 150yo bike! Hahahahahah... almost choked on dinner here. :^ )
 
Ted's account is accurate. I was disappointed but not devastated. A half a bike link or even a full bike length at 120 in 3rd doesn't effect the twisties much. But bragging rights go to Ted, for now. And that 2014 red is sharp and somewhat uncommon I think. And that home made header is impressive. We'll do some more 'testing' at the FFF.

I can see Ted's head swelling from here. He's gonna have to ride helmetless because they don't come in XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXL! :LOL::ROFLMAO:
 
Ted's account is accurate. I was disappointed but not devastated. etc etc etc
Uh ohh. Sounds like a new bike a'commin. 1624198641056.png
Ted my wife and I celebrate each thousand miles as another bike year - e.g. our 2017 ‘Blue’ recently turned 37 Yrs Old (37,000 miles) etc etc etc
Using your numbers; I already did a roll on with my 25 year old vs a 5 year old..
Same result. 1624198648858.png
No, I'm not a pede-file...
THAT is hilarious! 150yo bike! Hahahahahah... almost choked on dinner here. :^ )
Don't laugh. Your next. 1624198657579.png
i wish i could have made it. ti compare bw with it. had to work. next year. great job guys
You shoulda been there. See ya in Arkansas. 1624198664286.png
He's gonna have to ride helmetless because they don't come in XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXL! :ROFLMAO::LOL:
I'm riding helmetless already.
{I just paint my head to confuse "the unworthy"}.
Ptttttttttttttttt,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

All jokes aside; My intention for this discussion was not "Braggin' Rights".
Even though it's fun to brag, 1624198477638.png the discussion was intended as a way to "do bike comparisons and report them".

What I'm seeing, is;
*{much like Dyno Runs} there is always a variable in the comparison.

I'm also seeing;
** Every test, leads to more $$ for performance farkles, and a REMATCH!.
***No one else is reporting that they do this?

Ride safe, Ted
 
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More observations and speculations regarding roll on's I've done with Ted and Andy;
> Teds advantage over me was at the instant of cracking the throttle open, otherwise pretty much even. It was much more pronounced at 2000 rpm, but I never run below 3500 during spirited riding. So I'm not sure how relevant/important that really is (to me). Other than to highlight the small tube headers advantage in getting the airflow started.
> Andy's bike has a full Area P with a PC5 autotune. We did very similar roll on's last fall at the Spider. Way back when I had a PC5 with Fuelmoto map we were dead nuts even. We' been riding together since 2010 and his bike hasn't changed since 2011. I got flashed in 2015?
> So last fall, we hit the throttle at 3500, and stayed close to even with him slightly pulling me by a 1/4 bike length, up to 6500rpm. Then at 6500 it was like he pushed a boost button and would quickly walk away by 2 bike lengths. up to the same 120 in 3rd as me and Ted.
> I remember that same hit at 6500 on mine back when I had the PC5.
> So the speculation part is; I believe Ted would pull Andy same as he did me, But Andy would come storming back just like the we thought my bike would do.
> So for the next testing session with either one of these bikes, I'm going to remove the flies, again for the third time. It might help the 6500 hit, maybe.
 
I have never done one Ted, I'll do one with ya when you're up here in Oct.

My mods are few, only a slip on & a old Beta test version of a outdated Evo flash. Not to mention the bike is getting up there in miles, quite a few more than David's. It'll be interesting to see how big the difference is.

It'll be the battle of many mods & few miles, verses few mods & many miles. 😳
 
Thanx Laker. That's more info.
Yes Cliff. We'll do a roll-on and get more info.
Kzz; (at this stage) we really don't have enough Data to positively know anything.
We have too few tests to use as comparisons and we're finding that the variable's are "Many".
That's why I keep asking for more runs by other bikes.

** I'm unsure if any brand of Slip-on is any better than another, but a Slip-on does seem to be better than a bike with a stock muffler.

From memory, here are the Roll-on's that I've done.
NOTE: Robert (#4) and I did multiple runs with our bike's as we both made changes.

Before I did all my mods {I had a Area P slip-on only};
#1 ,,,, I did a Roll-on against a stock mufflered bike and pulled away from him.
#2 ,,,, I did a Roll-on against a bike that had a Brothers slip-on and pulled away from him.
#3 ,,,, I did a Roll-on against a Bike that had a ?? slip-on and Steve's EVO Flash and he pulled away.
#4 ,,,, I did a Roll-on against a Bike that had a 2 Brothers slip-on and Steve's EVO Flash and he pulled away.
I next added Steve's EVO Flash.
#4 again; I did a Roll-on against same Bike that had a 2 Brothers slip-on and Steve's EVO Flash and we were pretty even.
I next added Steve's Mountain Runner Flash.
#4 again; I did a Roll-on against same Bike that had a 2 Brothers slip-on and Steve's EVO Flash and I pulled away.
I next added a ZX-14 header and 2 Area P mufflers.
#4 again; I did a Roll-on against same Bike that had a 2 Brothers slip-on and (now) Steve's Mountain Runner Flash and I pulled away.
#5,,,, I did a Roll-on against a Bike that had a Yoshimira Full Exhaust and Steve's Area P Flash and he dusted me.
#6,,,, I did a Roll-on against a stock Bike and I dusted him.
I next added Steve's Mountain Runner Premium Flash.
#4 again; I did a Roll-on with same Bike that had a 2 Brothers slip-on and (now) Steve's Mountain Runner Premium Flash and I pulled away.
#7,,,, I did a Roll-on against a stock Bike and I dusted him.
#8,,,, I did a Roll-on against a Bike that had a 2 Brothers slip-on and Ivan's Flash and I pulled away.
#9,,,, I did a Roll-on against a Bike that had a Area P Full Exhaust and Ivan's Area P Flash and pulled only a bit (only in the low RPM's).

Currently; #4 won't talk to me about another test, I'm looking for #5 for a re-test, #6 added a Slip-on and Steve's Mountain Runner flash (and is looking for me), #7 bought a new BMW (and is looking for me), OOps; #8 #9 is removing Flies (and will be looking for me)

Ride safe, Ted

PS: To those that are looking for me, I'm here, but we need others to do runs and report..
I know it doesn't sound like it, but the idea of this discussion is not Braggin' Rights.
It's posted to determine what modifications work.
 
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Thanx Laker. That's more info.
Yes Cliff. We'll do a roll-on and get more info.
Kzz; (at this stage) we really don't have enough Data to positively know anything.
We have too few tests to use as comparisons and we're finding that the variable's are "Many".
That's why I keep asking for more runs by other bikes.

** I'm unsure if any brand of Slip-on is any better than another, but a Slip-on does seem to be better than a bike with a stock muffler.

From memory, here are the Roll-on's that I've done.
NOTE: Robert (#4) and I did multiple runs with our bike's as we both made changes.

Before I did all my mods {I had a Area P slip-on only};
#1 ,,,, I did a Roll-on against a stock mufflered bike and pulled away from him.
#2 ,,,, I did a Roll-on against a bike that had a Brothers slip-on and pulled away from him.
#3 ,,,, I did a Roll-on against a Bike that had a ?? slip-on and Steve's EVO Flash and he pulled away.
#4 ,,,, I did a Roll-on against a Bike that had a 2 Brothers slip-on and Steve's EVO Flash and he pulled away.
I next added Steve's EVO Flash.
#4 again; I did a Roll-on against same Bike that had a 2 Brothers slip-on and Steve's EVO Flash and we were pretty even.
I next added Steve's Mountain Runner Flash.
#4 again; I did a Roll-on against same Bike that had a 2 Brothers slip-on and Steve's EVO Flash and I pulled away.
I next added a ZX-14 header and 2 Area P mufflers.
#4 again; I did a Roll-on against same Bike that had a 2 Brothers slip-on and (now) Steve's Mountain Runner Flash and I pulled away.
#5,,,, I did a Roll-on against a Bike that had a Yoshimira Full Exhaust and Steve's Area P Flash and he dusted me.
#6,,,, I did a Roll-on against a stock Bike and dusted him.
I next added Steve's Mountain Runner Premium Flash.
#4 again; I did a Roll-on with same Bike that had a 2 Brothers slip-on and (now) Steve's Mountain Runner Premium Flash and I pulled away.
#7,,,, I did a Roll-on against a stock Bike and dusted him.
#8,,,, I did a Roll-on against a Bike that had a 2 Brothers slip-on and Ivan's Flash and pulled away.
#9,,,, I did a Roll-on against a Bike that had a Area P Full Exhaust and Ivan's Area P Flash and pulled only a bit.

Currently; #4 won't talk to me about another test, I'm looking for #5 for a re-test, #6 added a Slip-on and Steve's Mountain Runner flash (and is looking for me), #7 bought a new BMW (and is looking for me), #8 is removing Flies (and will be looking for me)

Ride safe, Ted

PS: To those that are looking for me, I'm here, but we need others to do runs and report..
I know it doesn't sound like it, but the idea of this discussion is not Braggin' Rights.
It's posted to determine what modifications work.

Yep, as #6 I can attest to having been dusted on my shiny new bone-stock bike. I didn't even have the grip puppies on yet at the time. I now have the MRP and BW can installed. Aside from a few other new farkles and a T021 Battlax rear tire replaced 2,650 miles ago it's still unimproved.

This is good data Ted. I'm starting to get even more interested now as I see how the bikes stack up. I've got one of your items to return, so one day this week (between rain showers?) let's see about meeting somewhere that Smokie the Bear won't come racing up behind us? Nice long stretch of pavement without traffic and potholes should tell us more about how these two setups compare. :^ ) AB
 
Thanks I think. Sounds like I need a exhaust system.
All I have to do roll ons with are HDs in various stages. C14 sightings are rare here.
 
Thanks I think. Sounds like I need a exhaust system.
All I have to do roll ons with are HDs in various stages. C14 sightings are rare here.
HD's in various stages... I have a friend whose son has harley's baddest bike, I think it's called a CVO with a 117" engine? This kid (early 30's) has the FAST bug bad. He sent the bike to what is considered the best HD shop in Canada, they changed pistons, cams, headwork, exhaust, something about the illegal (in the states) sreaming eagle ECU tune.. His Dad rides an FJR and told me to be careful, that HD is FAST! So we got together for some roll ons. My bike, a 2012 with area p slipon and somebody must have apparently tuned it while I was sleeping.
We did roll on's in 1st, second and 3rd gear. I let him pick what gear we were in and he could start the runs at whatever rpm he wanted.
So let's put it this way, it was an absolute beatdown. When it was all over, My friend's son told me next time he's going to have a supercharger on his bike. I believe him.
So much for racing HD's.
Steve
 
HD's in various stages... I have a friend whose son has harley's baddest bike, I think it's called a CVO with a 117" engine? This kid (early 30's) has the FAST bug bad. He sent the bike to what is considered the best HD shop in Canada, they changed pistons, cams, headwork, exhaust, something about the illegal (in the states) sreaming eagle ECU tune.. His Dad rides an FJR and told me to be careful, that HD is FAST! So we got together for some roll ons. My bike, a 2012 with area p slipon and somebody must have apparently tuned it while I was sleeping.
We did roll on's in 1st, second and 3rd gear. I let him pick what gear we were in and he could start the runs at whatever rpm he wanted.
So let's put it this way, it was an absolute beatdown. When it was all over, My friend's son told me next time he's going to have a supercharger on his bike. I believe him.
So much for racing HD's.
Steve

Went out for a quick ride the other day with a buddy who has an FZ1 with full exhaust and an Ivan’s tune. Not sure what else was done, and he didn’t either because he bought it used.

We weren’t really racing but on a couple back roads we lined up when turning and took off full throttle from 2nd gear. He didn’t pull away on me, but he for sure had me winding this up to 10k RPM so I wouldn’t fall behind. Of course his bike weighs half what our Connies weigh, but he has .352 liters less so I was a bit surprised by how fast he was. And his bike is a 2004 model year.

Another one of my amigos has a Road King 114 and up to about 60mph he can hang but then quickly falls behind. Might have something to do with the gearing, but I suspect the V-twin nature severely limits their top end.

I’ve got Steve’s MRP and a BW slip on which should give me a bit more legs, but I’ve got no illusions about being the fastest beast on the street. I’ve been passed on the highway by ZX10’s and Busas like I was in the short bus lane, and I was casually cruising at 120. LOL
 
#8 is removing Flies (and will be looking for me)
Come on man, I'm #9
Might have something to do with the gearing, but I suspect the V-twin nature severely limits their top end.
Not entirely true. I've got a Ktm 1290 vee twin. Same geometry vee and same crank configuration as a Harley. I did a roll on with Zg/Zn Kim in Kentucky the week prior to the national. It was not controlled in any way. After the first attempt by me to get his attention, he figured it out. So we tried again, and the ktm left him sitting. Found out later he was in 3rd at 7000rpm. I don't even know what gear I was in. Point is, the ktm is a hoot! I also don't know his mods, if any. The Harleys are limited by their inability to breath and massive rotating/reciprocating weight.
#2 ,,,, I did a Roll-on against a bike that had a Brothers slip-on and pulled away from him.
Ted made a comment after our test. I think he was trying to make me feel better but the statement was true. He said if you take 3 bikes off the assembly line at the same time, one will be the fastest. One will be the slowest. I think Ted got a good one.
 
Come on man, I'm #9

Not entirely true. I've got a Ktm 1290 vee twin. Same geometry vee and same crank configuration as a Harley. I did a roll on with Zg/Zn Kim in Kentucky the week prior to the national. It was not controlled in any way. After the first attempt by me to get his attention, he figured it out. So we tried again, and the ktm left him sitting. Found out later he was in 3rd at 7000rpm. I don't even know what gear I was in. Point is, the ktm is a hoot! I also don't know his mods, if any. The Harleys are limited by their inability to breath and massive rotating/reciprocating weight.

Ted made a comment after our test. I think he was trying to make me feel better but the statement was true. He said if you take 3 bikes off the assembly line at the same time, one will be the fastest. One will be the slowest. I think Ted got a good one.

I must’ve gotten the one in the middle. LOL
 
Clearly, I did get a good one, and I agree that it has an advantage...
ie; I keep telling ya'll that 2014 RED is the fastest Color..

Another Roll-on report, kinda..
Background info;
Before the National I did a 3rd gear Roll on with my son on his FJR.
NOTE: He had his wife on the back and I beat him handily.
So, she got on my bike for another test.
We again beat him handily.
,,,,,,But this time, his wife was on my bike. {laughing and waving at him}. 😁

When #9 and I did our Roll-on's, Roger was behind us on his FJR.
He reported that he kept up with us.
This was a surprise to me {after my son's tests} so I asked him about it.
Roger sed that the difference was; he had Ivan's FJR Flash in his bike.

Ride safe, Ted
 
When #9 and I did our Roll-on's, Roger was behind us on his FJR.
He reported that he kept up with us.
This was a surprise to me {after my son's tests} so I asked him about it.
Roger sed that the difference was; he had Ivan's FJR Flash in his bike.

Ride safe, Ted

AND he was a gear lower, because FJR's can't run with a Concours. BTDT many times.
Steve
 
So, she got on my bike for another test.
We again beat him handily.
,,,,,,But this time, his wife was on my bike. {laughing and waving at him}. 😁
Cruel, kinda funny but cruel.

Ted you and sporty red are ruthless - keep it up!!!

Ted are you doing anything other than roll-on (WOT) with your right wrist. No clutching? Tires I would also look there as a variable, seems small but could be a variable / factor, diameter, weight.
 
Lots of good stuff here..

Forgive me if it's been asked, but how do you start at the same time? Is there a countdown of sorts? One person counts down with they're left hand or are you communicating with coms?
 
Rodger is spinning a tall tail. 2 spiders ago I learned he had Ivan's flash. So we agreed to a test. After the test I asked him what happened, some problem? Did you forget to go? No problem, just a 25 year old engine design. Thats back when a good man with a porting tool could make a living.
 
So, I've been duped by Roger?? o_O Arghhh, the shame, the shame! :eek:

I was not being cruel. I was trying to make the test fair by having her get on my bike. {I expected him to pull away}
She (on the other hand) WAS being cruel! hee hee

Your correct. Many things can be a variable and can effect the test. (Always evaluate the results to see what variables are present)
** While evaluating earlier runs with Robert (bike #2) we thought that differing tire sizes may have made a difference.
But realized that the larger 55 series tire (which should have been a disadvantage) was accelerating the fastest. (??)
NOTE: We seldom go to 10k. Normally the fastest accell shows itself by 6-8K.

No, no clutch work at all.
The purpose of the Roll-on procedure is to make it entirely Bike X vs Bike Y.
So, we only twist the throttle.

Start procedure is EZ.
.. Both riders shift into 3rd gear.
.. #1 person watches his Tach and hold's his bike at 2,000 RPM (or another "agreed on" RPM)
.. The other matches him and nods when both bikes are even/ready
.. #1 does a count with left hand movement. ( 1, 2, "3" )
.. Both riders grab a handful of throttle and go on
"3"
NOTE: When I'm the #1 (counter person) I normally wait a half of instant after "3" {to be sure that #2 has time for an even response}
{Occasionally 1 bike will have an initial advantage with a quicker throttle twist, but the bike with the fastest initial accell normally shows itself anyway}
(and you can always do a rerun**)

** Reruns should be done at another location; As the bikes can be heard from a long distance and multiple runs may draw "unwanted" attention.
,,,, (Don't ask me how I know this) :whistle:


Ride safe, Ted
 
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So, I've been duped?? o_O
Arghhh, the shame, the shame! :eek:

I was not being cruel. I was try ingto make the test fair by having her get on my bike. {I expected him to pull away}
She (on the other hand) WAS being cruel! hee hee

Your correct. Many things can be a variable and can effect the test.
** While evaluating earlier runs with Robert (bike #2) we thought that differing tire sizes may have made a difference.
But realized that the larger 55 series tire (which should have been a disadvantage) was accelerating the fastest. (??)
NOTE: We seldom go to 10k. Normally the fastest accell shows itself by 6-8K.

No, no clutch work at all.
The purpose of the Roll-on procedure is to make it entirely Bike X vs Bike Y.
So, we only twist the throttle.

Start procedure is EZ.
.. Both riders shift into 3rd gear.
.. #1 person watches his Tach and hold's his bike at 2,000 RPM (or another "agreed on" RPM)
.. The other matches him and nods when both bikes are even/ready
.. #1 does a count with left hand movement. ( 1, 2, "3" )
.. Both riders grab a handful of throttle and go on
"3"
NOTE: When I'm the #1 (counter person) I normally wait a half of instant after "3" {to be sure the #2 has time for an even response}
{Occasionally 1 bike will have an initial advantage with a quicker throttle twist, but the bike with the fastest initial accell normally shows itself anyway} (and you can always do a rerun**)

** Reruns should be done at another location; As the bikes can be heard from a long distance and multiple runs may draw unwanted attention.

Ride safe, Ted

“…may draw unwanted attention.”

LOL, yeah this can be a potential issue. 😉
 
Clearly, I did get a good one, and I agree that it has an advantage...
ie; I keep telling ya'll that 2014 RED is the fastest Color..

Another Roll-on report, kinda..
Background info;
Before the National I did a 3rd gear Roll on with my son on his FJR.
NOTE: He had his wife on the back and I beat him handily.
So, she got on my bike for another test.
We again beat him handily.
,,,,,,But this time, his wife was on my bike. {laughing and waving at him}. 😁

When #9 and I did our Roll-on's, Roger was behind us on his FJR.
He reported that he kept up with us.
This was a surprise to me {after my son's tests} so I asked him about it.
Roger sed that the difference was; he had Ivan's FJR Flash in his bike.

Ride safe, Ted

My friend Ted suffers from delusional thinking. RED is far and away a slower color, and he doesn't realize he actually NEEDS the mods to keep up with the box stock SILVER rockets. When it comes to a half a bike length that could easily be explained by reaction time, throttle adjustment or slack and so on. But I am sure the RED is the first problem Ted. Fix that flaw, and you'll have a faster bike - the mods will be the gravy!
 
Ursharkfuel; I like your reasoning/explanation...
{It's wrong, but I like it!} LOL..

Jim; Staying ahead in the twisties is not a comparison of bikes.
It's more about rider skill, and I'm certain that your the faster rider.
Puuuuuuulease don't flash your bike...

The purpose of this discussion is NOT to see if my bike is faster than everyone elses.
The intention is; to get folks to use a Roll-on as a means to compare bikes.
We often see that people think their Flash/header/fairing/color is the best.
But; without a way to compare bikes, it's only an opinion.

By doing a Roll-on with another bike and sharing the results and variables, we can see trends.. {what is fastest/most torquey/etc}
{NOTE: Dyno runs are almost worthless for a comparison because the Dyno itself puts a huge variable in the tests}.
(ie; No 2 Dyno's produce the same numbers when run in differing conditions).
The Dyno plots can be used, but the numbers themselves will vary.

But 2 bikes, side by side, are a good comparison and the results can be used.

NOTE; Even with the variables, in my Roll-on's I can see that there is 1 thing that repeatedly stands out.
ie; 2014 RED is the fastest Color. 🤣

Now, if others will start reporting their tests, we may be able to "discover" other truth's..

Ride safe, Ted
 
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Don't worry Ted I am not going to flash my FJR, it goes faster then I can ride it now. But I was just messin with ya.
From your roll on test I would think your home built exhaust is atleast equal to or slightly better in performance then the Area P.
Of course this is just an observation.
 
I feel sooooo much better.
I'm not so sure about my system yet. I think the Full Area P should have pulled mine in the higher RPM's.
I think he may have had other variable's (high mileage engine) that effected the results.

When I built my system, I used headers with smaller head pipes and their not a true Tri Y.
I did this because they were available/inexpensive/had 2 mufflers/ and I thought they would give me better response at low Throttle settings.
I still think so, but a Roll-on (or a dyno run) does not measure that.

Ride safe, Ted
 
I just saw this thread for the first time today and enjoyed reading it. (I've only got through the first page)

Me and friend of mine used to do the same thing your talking about all the time for fun, just to test out our bikes and the mods. Not a race, but I think more than anything it is a good measure of low to midrange torque, which is what I like.

We would do each gear, one at a time except for first, because of wheelies. We would start at 3000 rpm. We would do second, and start over and then do 3rd and so on.

The first ones that we did was a 2005 (1st Gen) bone stock FJR (lower gearing than gen 2 or 3, I think) and a ZRX1200R bone stock except a slip on (which makes little difference on a ZRX)

We looked like Ponch and John riding side by side. I was amazed at how those two bikes were exactly the same in every gear. Neither pulled away from the other at any speed (we cut it off at around 100.)

I put a full muzzy system, Ivan's jet kit and pods. We did the same test and it was no contest. The ZRX would walk the dog on the FJR at any RPM, any gear, any speed.

He also has a 2010 C-14 that was bone stock. I never got to run it while my ZRX was stock.

So the ZRX piped podded and jetted would walk away pretty easily from the stock C-14, especially at lower RPM's. ZRX's have great low end torque.

The thing that blew my mind the most, was when he put a Two Brothers Slip on on the C-14. Nothing else. No flash, just a slip on.

Now the C-14 was dead even with the ZRX. I still can't believe that the slip on made that much difference without a flash.

Then I bought a 2013 C-14 that was bone stock. I put a full Black Widow system and a flash.

Now when we roll on at 3000, I might get one and half bike lengths in front of him at first, then they are dead even the rest of the way and that's just sometimes. Most of the times, they are dead even.

I was expecting to be able to smoke him. The difference IMHO was negligible. The only place that I barely had any more torque than him was at an RPM that is probably lower than I would normally be riding at.

Dollar for dollar he got more gains than I did.

I probably weight 10-15 more ponds than him. We're pretty close in weight.

I got tired of that Black Widow blasting out my ear drums on long trips, so I put a Yoshimura on the BW header and mid. It sounds much better, but we haven't ran since I made that change.

Sorry for being so long winded.
 
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