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Anybody else doing Roll-On (modification) comparisons?

I think I'm top dog on being long winded, so not a problem..

Good info. THANK YOU!!
After you finish your read, please comment some more.

err, Ya need to check your Buddy out, there may be a Flash on that ECU.

NOTE: Steve has developed an EZ modification to the Delkevic and Black Widow headers that seems to add more low/mid power and a bit of peak RPM.
Try it and you might surprise your buddy.. <evil grin>

Check out this discussion for more info. He's posted the details on the Delkevic mod, but not the BW. (yet)
https://forum.concours.org/index.php?threads/delkevic-header-c14-getting-your-torque-back.53727/
 
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Posting this again to ask if anyone else is doing Roll-on's?

This method is the best way to compare modifications to your bike.
Find a Buddy (It is not important that he have a C-14. Just a bike that is reasonably close on size/power.)
Do a roll-on with him and develop a base of whose is faster and when. (at what RPM)
later you can do modifications to one of the bikes and do a re-test.
That retest will show if your modification helped or hurt.
Please post your results here.


Previously I did comparisons with David. (See posts 66 and 67).
We agreed to compare again at the Final Fall Fling.

Update; At the FFF, David and I were able to do only 1 test.
ie; Not many straight sections in Arkansas for testing.
Results were about the same, but my RED bike seemed to do slightly better than it did previously.
(Err: Being a REALLY NICE guy, I offered him some RED spray-paint to make the bikes more even.)

We're now (both) considering some mods to our bikes, and will someday do a rematch.
(The madness never ends 😆)

Ride safe, Ted

PS: Good news: I've found another COGger/Buddy here in Houston to do comparisons with. (as he or I do mods)
We've already done a base line test.
(err) Since that test, he's added a Slip-on and a MRP Flash, {and I offered RED spray paint. 😜 }
""I think it's time for a rematch"".. (y)
 
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Are there not available some relatively economical telematics devices ( <$300 ) that can plug inline with sensor feeds and result in more data based performance metrics and evaluation of performance before / after changes? Guess I’m a data guy.

IMO showing up to a roll-on is great but unless carefully controlled could result in incorrect assumptions. There are a number of variables that can have a significant impact with this type of performance being measured. One of the largest is weight, are you scaling and adding weight to one bike to make all equal? Some may say 10# what is that on a roll-on drag, it’s huge! Another is tire size / outside diameter what’s the difference between a 50 / 55 tire - it is measurable.

All these subtleties add up to make a big difference and could direct someone in the wrong way when really the exhaust didn’t help the other guy it’s the gallon of milk in bag that made it look like the other outperformed.

If we could find a telematics device not overly spendy I would have fun with that any time I want versus tracking down my buddy to do a roll-on.

Not against the in person fun. Ted can’t wait to meet up, I’m sure you are already tweaking on your machine - I am 👍.
 
Are there not available some relatively economical telematics devices ( <$300 ) that can plug inline with sensor feeds and result in more data based performance metrics and evaluation of performance before / after changes? Guess I’m a data guy.

IMO showing up to a roll-on is great but unless carefully controlled could result in incorrect assumptions. There are a number of variables that can have a significant impact with this type of performance being measured. One of the largest is weight, are you scaling and adding weight to one bike to make all equal? Some may say 10# what is that on a roll-on drag, it’s huge! Another is tire size / outside diameter what’s the difference between a 50 / 55 tire - it is measurable.

All these subtleties add up to make a big difference and could direct someone in the wrong way when really the exhaust didn’t help the other guy it’s the gallon of milk in bag that made it look like the other outperformed.

If we could find a telematics device not overly spendy I would have fun with that any time I want versus tracking down my buddy to do a roll-on.

Not against the in person fun. Ted can’t wait to meet up, I’m sure you are already tweaking on your machine - I am 👍.

Again, you're not getting what the intent is here. Ted isn't trying - with the roll on's he's going to do with a fellow Houstonian - to prove whose bike is faster. He's trying to use a known performance bike as a "constant" so when he makes the changes he can tell if some improvement was made, or not. This is the best we can do, lacking telemetrics or a dyno.
 
Again, you're not getting what the intent is here. Ted isn't trying - with the roll on's he's going to do with a fellow Houstonian - to prove whose bike is faster. He's trying to use a known performance bike as a "constant" so when he makes the changes he can tell if some improvement was made, or not. This is the best we can do, lacking telemetrics or a dyno.
Steve I get the concept and intent, it's not hard to follow, however condition control can be surprisingly hard. Then you start making changes on multiple machines(both test machines) and wow now you are all outta whack.

I like to measure the exact subject machine against itself.

Steve are you aware of any devices that can accurately measure time / distance: 0-60 mph, 1/4 mile, G-Forces, Calc HP that don't cost an 🦾 & a 🦿 ?
 
Steve I get the concept and intent, it's not hard to follow, however condition control can be surprisingly hard. Then you start making changes on multiple machines(both test machines) and wow now you are all outta whack.

I like to measure the exact subject machine against itself.

Steve are you aware of any devices that can accurately measure time / distance: 0-60 mph, 1/4 mile, G-Forces, Calc HP that don't cost an 🦾 & a 🦿 ?
Steve I get the concept and intent, it's not hard to follow, however condition control can be surprisingly hard. Then you start making changes on multiple machines(both test machines) and wow now you are all outta whack.

I like to measure the exact subject machine against itself.

Steve are you aware of any devices that can accurately measure time / distance: 0-60 mph, 1/4 mile, G-Forces, Calc HP that don't cost an 🦾 & a 🦿 ?
The idea is that one machine cannot make any mods between the testing. I did this with a fellow cogger in 2015 when first developing my flash, and it turned out to be very helpful. Did it again in 2016 with another who had an area p, first with my stock exhaust and then with the area p exhaust. Now I have a dyno, but controlled roll ons were good, too. Of course I was datalogging the whole time, which is invaluable from a tuning aspect.

One thing that everyone either glosses over or doesn't understand is that I talk about overall performance, which is area under the curve on WOT, and also light throttle performance, which you're NOT SEEING on dyno runs. I'm considering this bike from a street riders perspective, not a drag racers perspective. And I have to ask... do you see the bikes with my tune in them getting whooped regularly? if it's happening, I sure don't hear about it.

Steve
 
OK, everyone wants to see dyno charts or it didn't happen. I get it. So I'm going to post 2 charts here. Look at them carefully, you'll see
1) the effectiveness of my reducer mod;
2) what I mean by tuning for the whole area "under the curve"
3) these are BOTH done with a BLACK WIDOW EXHAUST and are depicted in the same STD correction factor. (very comparable)

So you know what you're looking at... The first is a dyno chart taken from a you tube video of a Concours 14 with the BW system that was first tuned by "a competitor" and then re-tuned by Chris Moore of Moore Mafia you tube channel. (you can watch the whole video there).There's 2 runs, one is the before, as tuned by " a competitor" , the second (higher) run is after Moore's tuning.

The second chart is from a customer's bike I tuned a few months ago. The lower powered run is what it charted with just my tune / bw header. The higher powered run is what it did with the exhaust reducer added into the BW header.

Now I know y'all are going to get wrapped up in the peak power on both charts being low. I get it. I know the bike I worked on well, from stock with a slip on all the way through the BW header tuning... and it was IMO lower on power, comparatively, than alot of other bikes I've dyno'ed. It was a very low miles bike, and think it still had friction throughout. I also feel the one Moore tuned was also a relatively weak bike. So don't get all hung up on the peak #'s. Welcome to the world.

What I DO want you to look at is what I'm calling "area under the curve" . Compare the HP runs on both charts, and you'll see mine hits just about peak HP at 8000 rpm and holds it just about to redline, whereas the other tunes are still climbing at 8000 rpm. I consider that power left on the table... less power under the curve.

The final thing to look at is that you'll see the higher powered run on my chart is WITH the exhaust reducer. WHAT! you mean it made power with a restricted exhaust!!! BLASPHEMER!!! o_O o_O o_O

Steve
 

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That's what I like to see.. Open discussion and the exchanging idea's!

2and blue, I can see your point, but I can also see that "your a believer".
ie; You believe the numbers are the same on different dyno's/locations/bikes/conditions and are unaware of the MULTIPLE variables on dyno (or telemetric) tests.
Take my word for it. No 2 dyno's produce the same number's.
Particularly
when those 2 dyno's are in different locations and the tests are conducted under different conditions, on different days, by different people.

ALL the variables you mentioned (including weight) also "occur" on dyno tests, "plus" temperature, humidity, altitude, barometric pressure, dyno rolling resistance, warm up, dyno calibration, operator, data collection/calculation, etc, etc, etc..

Next; Consider a Roll on.
A roll on test is being run; bike vs bike, so both bikes are seeing the same conditions during the test.
ie; Temperature, humidity, altitude, barometric pressure, dyno rolling resistance, warm up, dyno calibration, operator, data collection/calculation, etc, etc, etc... are the same, and the things that I crossed out, don't exist in the Roll-on test.

Lastly. Consider the cost of doing roll-on's vs Dyno time, or dyno/telemetric costs.

I'm NOT saying that the Roll-on Test is without variables, nor is it fool proof.
But, it's a very good option to evaluate modifications.
And, it's fun.

Thoughts???

Ride safe, Ted
 
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I like it Ted for the fun factor.

I am a believer of controlled conditions and reduction of variables that can effect my measurements. Being a control freak my outcomes are usually very predictable, I don’t like surprises, one reason I could never be a MC passenger for any extended period of time.

My thoughts - let’s roll!
 
My excuse; I've been trying to get some discussion (on Roll-on's) for a long time.
I want to discuss that (Roll-on's) rite now, and your chart helps me make my point.

2 and Blue, look at his charts.
(For the sake of discussion, lets assume the reducer was added to your bike).
The 3rd chart (after adding the reducer) "clearly" shows an increase in torque/power in several different area's.
By the way Steve, "Wow" (That is impressive)!

2 and Blue;
Your method;
If you had done a base line plot, you could now compare the plots., and see a before/after plot {of your bike}.
Because there was an increase in several area's of the plot, you could see that "there was a change"!

But; Do you "know" if the reducers actually helped your bike on the road?
ie; Would your bike have an advantage because of that change, and at what RPM?


My method; If we had done a base line run (of our bikes), installed the reducer in one (yours), and then do another Roll-on, we "would" be able to see the difference the mod made, and at what RPM it works.
(in this scenario, lets assume the bikes were dead even during the base line),

{The scenario}; Lets "assume" that your bike "now" easily pulls away from mine (at lower rpm's), stays ahead thru (the mid rpm's), but mine comes "surging" past you (at higher RPM's).

So,,,
How would "you" rate the reducer install?

My guess is;
,,,,{As you like high RPM power}, you would not like the change {because my bike pulls away at high RPM's}.
,,,,{As I like low RPM torque}, I would add the reducers to mine. {as they demonstrated a low/mid RPM advantage}

Ride safe, Ted

PS: Looking at Steve's chart, I do not "know" how the scenario would actually play out.
I just laid it out this way (as the scenario I used) helped me demonstrate how a plot and a roll-on work.


Last PS: If I were you, I would keep the reducers and paint your bike RED. <evil grin>
 
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My excuse; I've been trying to get some discussion (on Roll-on's) for a long time.
I want to discuss that rite now, and your chart helps me make my point.

2 and Blue, look at his charts.
(For the sake of discussion, lets assume the reducer was added to your bike).
The 3rd chart (after adding the reducer) "clearly" shows an increase in torque/power in several different area's.
By the way,, "Wow" (That is impressive)!

Your method; If you had done a base line plot, you could now compare the plots., and see a before/after plot {of your bike}.
Because there was an increase before and in several area's of the plot, you could see that "there was a change"!

But; Do you "know" if the reducers actually helped your bike on the road?
ie; Would your bike have an advantage because of that change, and at what RPM?


My method; If we had done a base line run (of our bikes), installed the reducer in one (yours), and then do another Roll-on, we "would" be able to see the difference the mod made and at what RPM it works.
(in this senario, lets assume the bikes were dead even during the base line),

{The senario}; Lets assume that your bike "now" easily pulls away from mine (at lower rpm's), stays ahead thru (the mid rpm's), but mine comes "surging" past you (at higher RPM's).
How would "you" rate the reducer install?

My guess is;
,,,,{As you like high RPM power}, you would not like the change {because my bike pulls away at high RPM's}.
,,,,{As I like low RPM torque}, I would add the reducers to mine. {as they demonstrated a low/mid RPM advantage}

Ride safe, Ted

PS: Looking at Steve's chart, I do not "know" how the senario would actually play out.
I just laid it out this way (as the senario I used) helped me demonstrate how a plot and a roll-on work.


Last PS: If I were you, I would keep the reducers and paint your bike RED. <evil grin>
Geez Ted, you have a elevated complication to an art form. How would it play out? look at the chart. Compare the before and after. The restricted run is stronger from throttle turn to redline. Stronger is stronger. It's marginal, but it's there. If it were 2 different bikes, all else being equal, it would have a marginal edge.
Steve
 
Looking at Steve's chart, I do not "know" how the senario would "actually" play out.
I just laid it out this way (as the scenario I used) helped me demonstrate how a plot and a roll-on work.

ie; I "made up" a scenario to demonstrate the differences; what a plot indicates, and what a Roll-on demonstrates, and how 2 people would evaluate the results differently.
NOTE: The final "surge" (Included in my scenario), was the effect of the RED paint. <evil grin>

Ride safe, Ted
 
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Geez Ted, you have a elevated complication to an art form. How would it play out? look at the chart. Compare the before and after. The restricted run is stronger from throttle turn to redline. Stronger is stronger. It's marginal, but it's there. If it were 2 different bikes, all else being equal, it would have a marginal edge.
Steve
But an edge non the less.
 
My excuse; I've been trying to get some discussion (on Roll-on's) for a long time.
I want to discuss that (Roll-on's) rite now, and your chart helps me make my point.

2 and Blue, look at his charts.
(For the sake of discussion, lets assume the reducer was added to your bike).
The 3rd chart (after adding the reducer) "clearly" shows an increase in torque/power in several different area's.
By the way Steve, "Wow" (That is impressive)!

2 and Blue;
Your method;
If you had done a base line plot, you could now compare the plots., and see a before/after plot {of your bike}.
Because there was an increase in several area's of the plot, you could see that "there was a change"!

But; Do you "know" if the reducers actually helped your bike on the road?
ie; Would your bike have an advantage because of that change, and at what RPM?


My method; If we had done a base line run (of our bikes), installed the reducer in one (yours), and then do another Roll-on, we "would" be able to see the difference the mod made, and at what RPM it works.
(in this scenario, lets assume the bikes were dead even during the base line),

{The scenario}; Lets "assume" that your bike "now" easily pulls away from mine (at lower rpm's), stays ahead thru (the mid rpm's), but mine comes "surging" past you (at higher RPM's).

So,,,
How would "you" rate the reducer install?

My guess is;
,,,,{As you like high RPM power}, you would not like the change {because my bike pulls away at high RPM's}.
,,,,{As I like low RPM torque}, I would add the reducers to mine. {as they demonstrated a low/mid RPM advantage}

Ride safe, Ted

PS: Looking at Steve's chart, I do not "know" how the scenario would actually play out.
I just laid it out this way (as the scenario I used) helped me demonstrate how a plot and a roll-on work.


Last PS: If I were you, I would keep the reducers and paint your bike RED. <evil grin>
Ted when we ride together the only red that will be seen from my bike is my brake light waiting for you to catch up 🔥

Steve and I talked offline regarding the reducer, dimensions, install, etc.. will make some measurements and see what I can do to get this done. Interest certainly peaked.
 
Found a no cost App that might be fun for some to try and share results, then changes can be tested against yourself or others and shared. Weather, altitude, road surface level, etc. are some major variables to be aware of - however does make roll-ons more available to compare…. Accuracy? But could again be way to get some engagement in the privacy of your own favorite spot..

App is called GPS Race Timer Looks like an easy app to use and several different types and endless configurations of tests can be measured.

Roll-ons can be set by setting a starting gear and speed with a specific range of speed to be measured in time to go from starting speed to target speed. Seems this would be rather reliable. For this test you’d set the device to measure a range of speed just above your start speed. Set a starting gear, and speed range and have at it. For instance: 2nd gear roll-on you would set App to measure time to travel from 30mph to 70mph. Get your bike up to 25 mph 2nd gear then WOT the has and hold until after 70. Timer will measure the time it takes to go from 30mph to 70 mph.

Other tests include standing still start to any defined distance such as 60 FT, 1/8; 1/4; 1/2; 1 or custom miles.

Or even other tests of standing still start to any defined speed such as 0-60, 100 or other mph.

Reading reviews it seems the start from standing still measurements could be hit/miss. All about detection of the movement.

I am going to try the above roll on that I described and share. Need to find an open space here, not as easily done some days in SE PA.
 
Steve, very interesting to see the dyno charts, and this is not the first time I've seen proof that decreasing the size of an exhaust component shows better performance. I'm no exhaust expert, but I've done a lot of reading about various intake/header/cat/muffler modifications on cars over the years and a little bit of tinkering, and I know that just having a gigantic pipe with no restriction is NOT the way to go in pretty much all cases. Thanks for showing us some measurable results!

On the other topic...

I have to say that I've been reading through discussion about the 'Roll-On Tests' in various threads, and while I agree that it is a fun way to see how mods impact your bike's performance, I would tend to think of these as little races. You're only really comparing two different bikes at a given point in time, but there are too many other variables at play to DEFINITIVELY say that mod X did Y, in terms of performance. If you want to measure things, you put the bike/car/engine on a dyno and you control as many variables as you can, and measure those that you can't control. Temperature, humidity, same rider who is familiar with the operation of said dyno.

Roll-on testing would definitely be far more useful than, say, a 0-60 or 1/4 mile test, because that introduces even more variables.

If I slept poorly or somehow skipped my morning coffee (say it ain't so!) would probably affect my own ability to ride the bike to its potential... Maybe I'm shifting too late or too early, or sitting more upright because my back hurts that day (more wind resistance). Certain modifications are affected more by temperature and humidity whereas the stock systems may provide less performance overall, but also less deviation under changing conditions. And we as humans are, despite our incredible adaptability, imperfect machines, especially when it comes to repeatability. I feel there's so much human input involved in riding motorcycles that the deviation from run to run is more than most minor modifications would show in a roll-on race.

Now, that's not to say that the rider, who is accustomed to that motorcycle, would feel the change... we all know our butt dynos are INCREDIBLE accurate, but 'feel' is such a hard thing to quantify, and I think I speak for most riders that if a performance parts company is marketing their product not based on observed numbers but just on "it feels nice", they'd go out of business real quick.

Having said all of that, real-world ride testing absolutely has value. For instance, not having ridden Steve's tunes but reading about them, it seems to me that most of the improvement is NOT in the numbers produced on the dyno but rather in the drivability of the tune. Throttle mapping, ignition timing, etc. all play a role in this.

OK, so having typed all this out, I guess I mean to say that I wouldn't believe a lot of claims about improvement based on Roll-on tests from other people. If I rode the bike before/after and felt something myself, that would be worth something. Otherwise, I'd better see numbers or a whole lot of personal observations from people who have done said modification, and the logic/science/math/whatever would have to make sense to me too.
 
Steve, very interesting to see the dyno charts, and this is not the first time I've seen proof that decreasing the size of an exhaust component shows better performance. I'm no exhaust expert, but I've done a lot of reading about various intake/header/cat/muffler modifications on cars over the years and a little bit of tinkering, and I know that just having a gigantic pipe with no restriction is NOT the way to go in pretty much all cases. Thanks for showing us some measurable results!

On the other topic...

I have to say that I've been reading through discussion about the 'Roll-On Tests' in various threads, and while I agree that it is a fun way to see how mods impact your bike's performance, I would tend to think of these as little races. You're only really comparing two different bikes at a given point in time, but there are too many other variables at play to DEFINITIVELY say that mod X did Y, in terms of performance. If you want to measure things, you put the bike/car/engine on a dyno and you control as many variables as you can, and measure those that you can't control. Temperature, humidity, same rider who is familiar with the operation of said dyno.

Roll-on testing would definitely be far more useful than, say, a 0-60 or 1/4 mile test, because that introduces even more variables.

If I slept poorly or somehow skipped my morning coffee (say it ain't so!) would probably affect my own ability to ride the bike to its potential... Maybe I'm shifting too late or too early, or sitting more upright because my back hurts that day (more wind resistance). Certain modifications are affected more by temperature and humidity whereas the stock systems may provide less performance overall, but also less deviation under changing conditions. And we as humans are, despite our incredible adaptability, imperfect machines, especially when it comes to repeatability. I feel there's so much human input involved in riding motorcycles that the deviation from run to run is more than most minor modifications would show in a roll-on race.

Now, that's not to say that the rider, who is accustomed to that motorcycle, would feel the change... we all know our butt dynos are INCREDIBLE accurate, but 'feel' is such a hard thing to quantify, and I think I speak for most riders that if a performance parts company is marketing their product not based on observed numbers but just on "it feels nice", they'd go out of business real quick.

Having said all of that, real-world ride testing absolutely has value. For instance, not having ridden Steve's tunes but reading about them, it seems to me that most of the improvement is NOT in the numbers produced on the dyno but rather in the drivability of the tune. Throttle mapping, ignition timing, etc. all play a role in this.

OK, so having typed all this out, I guess I mean to say that I wouldn't believe a lot of claims about improvement based on Roll-on tests from other people. If I rode the bike before/after and felt something myself, that would be worth something. Otherwise, I'd better see numbers or a whole lot of personal observations from people who have done said modification, and the logic/science/math/whatever would have to make sense to me too.
Steve, very interesting to see the dyno charts, and this is not the first time I've seen proof that decreasing the size of an exhaust component shows better performance. I'm no exhaust expert, but I've done a lot of reading about various intake/header/cat/muffler modifications on cars over the years and a little bit of tinkering, and I know that just having a gigantic pipe with no restriction is NOT the way to go in pretty much all cases. Thanks for showing us some measurable results!

On the other topic...

I have to say that I've been reading through discussion about the 'Roll-On Tests' in various threads, and while I agree that it is a fun way to see how mods impact your bike's performance, I would tend to think of these as little races. You're only really comparing two different bikes at a given point in time, but there are too many other variables at play to DEFINITIVELY say that mod X did Y, in terms of performance. If you want to measure things, you put the bike/car/engine on a dyno and you control as many variables as you can, and measure those that you can't control. Temperature, humidity, same rider who is familiar with the operation of said dyno.

Roll-on testing would definitely be far more useful than, say, a 0-60 or 1/4 mile test, because that introduces even more variables.

If I slept poorly or somehow skipped my morning coffee (say it ain't so!) would probably affect my own ability to ride the bike to its potential... Maybe I'm shifting too late or too early, or sitting more upright because my back hurts that day (more wind resistance). Certain modifications are affected more by temperature and humidity whereas the stock systems may provide less performance overall, but also less deviation under changing conditions. And we as humans are, despite our incredible adaptability, imperfect machines, especially when it comes to repeatability. I feel there's so much human input involved in riding motorcycles that the deviation from run to run is more than most minor modifications would show in a roll-on race.

Now, that's not to say that the rider, who is accustomed to that motorcycle, would feel the change... we all know our butt dynos are INCREDIBLE accurate, but 'feel' is such a hard thing to quantify, and I think I speak for most riders that if a performance parts company is marketing their product not based on observed numbers but just on "it feels nice", they'd go out of business real quick.

Having said all of that, real-world ride testing absolutely has value. For instance, not having ridden Steve's tunes but reading about them, it seems to me that most of the improvement is NOT in the numbers produced on the dyno but rather in the drivability of the tune. Throttle mapping, ignition timing, etc. all play a role in this.

OK, so having typed all this out, I guess I mean to say that I wouldn't believe a lot of claims about improvement based on Roll-on tests from other people. If I rode the bike before/after and felt something myself, that would be worth something. Otherwise, I'd better see numbers or a whole lot of personal observations from people who have done said modification, and the logic/science/math/whatever would have to make sense to me too.

Fastnova... one of the best roll ons for the c-14 is a roll on using only 3rd gear. The gearing is high enough that the bike won't overwhelm anyone, and it taps out around 120 mph, so anyone who is trying for their junior hoolie award had gone fast enough to deserve it. Doing a rolling start and then shifting gears does start to bring rider ability more into the picture. Even if the bikes are mismatched by rider weight, the idea is to modify only one of the bikes and use the other as a constant. So lets say your buddy has you by 2 lengths at 100, when you pre-determined to roll off. Then you change you bike, and he doesn't. You go out and do it again, starting at the same rpm, and see what the difference is at 100. Now you're even? clearly you did something to make your bike more powerful. It can work the other way, too.

Steve
 
Fastnova... one of the best roll ons for the c-14 is a roll on using only 3rd gear. The gearing is high enough that the bike won't overwhelm anyone, and it taps out around 120 mph, so anyone who is trying for their junior hoolie award had gone fast enough to deserve it. Doing a rolling start and then shifting gears does start to bring rider ability more into the picture. Even if the bikes are mismatched by rider weight, the idea is to modify only one of the bikes and use the other as a constant. So lets say your buddy has you by 2 lengths at 100, when you pre-determined to roll off. Then you change you bike, and he doesn't. You go out and do it again, starting at the same rpm, and see what the difference is at 100. Now you're even? clearly you did something to make your bike more powerful. It can work the other way, too.

Steve
That makes sense. I also have to say that I shy away from any sort of racing on public roads... I think the penalty for racing is much higher than simply speeding. Though I guess I'd have to look that up, I just assumed that's the case. So I am more comfortable relying on numbers taken from a dyno or even the track, than casual racing to triple digits.

Of course, I'm sure everyone is talking about doing these on private property or in 'Mexico' (as said on another forum).

One other problem I have is that I don't have any moto friends currently with engines nearly as potent as the C14, so it would be hard to compare our Roll-on tests when they're always so far behind me!
 
LOL, hours of entertainment. I’m very much enjoying the show fellas. We can see that the differences in opinion are not so far apart after all.

Just went to Mexico with a local amigo, who shall remain nameless for now. Earlier this year I had the pleasure of getting thoroughly trounced by my amigos’ red rocket, while my machine was bone stock except for the grip puppies and handlebar risers.
70101B39-4E49-45E9-9FF2-A5EA071C18E4.jpeg

Thanks to Shoodaben Engineering and BlackWidow, Inc I was no longer eating dust and watching taillights disappear. LOL

In truth, these machines are so much more engaging with a flash and open throat. Top end left a tiny bit to be desired, but at the minimal level of investment I’ve made thus far it was sincerely $’s well spent and I have no real need to get faster. Not only did the red devil NOT walk away by two+ bike lengths like in the first roll-on tests, depending on how quick one of us was with the throttle I pulled ahead by an eyebrow as many times as my mustachio’d amigo did.
22992ECE-FAF8-413B-BE5F-C5DE18239001.jpeg

Roll-ons are miles of entertainment, especially in Mexico. And they give real world feedback for quick evaluation. No pricey dynos or scheduling snafus. No disassembly and reassembly required.

That being said, minor tweaks may not register as brilliantly as my two relatively mild mods have. For example, installing the brighter LED bulbs demonstrated zero impact on my 3rd gear / 3,000RPM launch velocity. LOL
A0C0B423-CBE0-4D4D-BF05-4470AE6DF5C4.jpeg

Cheers y’all, AB
 
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Ride report;
Yesterday we went out and did Roll-on's. (See posts/photo's above)
Test Details;
I'm prolly 20 lbs heavier, have more weight on my bike, and also have a trunk bag.

His bike is BLACK/(slight disadvantage) Mine is RED.(fastest color)
Tires are both 50 series.
I have MRA Vario shield. He has a stock (taller) shield.
As always, we used 3rd gear for testing, and initially started at 2000 RPM. (see below)
**


{In our first meeting, texas.devops bike was completely stock and mine had ZX-14 header/MRP Flash}
My bike pulled away easily, and was prolly 5-6 lengths ahead after the Roll-on's.
{In this meeting, texas.devops had installed Black Widow Slip-on and MRP Flash. Mine was unchanged}

We went out into the country away from Houston to a looooong straight road.

We initially did 2 roll-on's. Results were inconclusive as each bike led 1 of the Roll-on's. {WTH ??}
** We decided to find out what was going on, and opted to do additional runs. (with differing RPM start and shut down)
We then did our series (and after riding to a "distant" area), stopped to discuss.

Results; "Whichever bike" {that gets the first instant of throttle twist} pulls away about 1 length, the distance remains unchanged, until high RPM's where mine seems to gain.
ie; The bikes are so even now that we called it a draw.
NOTE:
His bike might have a slight advantage at low RPM's.
My bike might have a slight advantage at high RPM's.

MOST IMPORTANT FINDINGS:
The Roll-on tests "clearly show" that his modifications made a difference.

ie; {His mods worked, and the Roll-on Test itself was a success}

Future plans; One of us will do a modification to his bike. (The problem is,, Who ??)
At this point, I'll probably install Steve's Reducers.
(This is difficult as his reducer size calculation is based on a single muffler set up and my bike has 2 mufflers)
(I've done roll-on's with others and want only 1 bike changed in those tests too)
or;
We might install a reducer in TeXaS.devops Stock Header.
(Time for Steve to do some calculatin')
(Wouldn't it be cool if the Reducer improves a stock header?) {If so, it could help a lot of folks}.

Ride safe, Ted

PS: No Red or Black spray paint cans were exchanged after the tests.
 
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Ride report;
Yesterday we went out and did Roll-on's. (See posts/photo's above)
I'm prolly 20 lbs heavier, have more weight on my bike, and also have a trunk bag.
His bike is BLACK/(slight disadvantage) Mine is RED.(fastest color)
Tires are both 50 series. I have MRA Vario shield. He has stock.
As always, we used 3rd gear for testing, and initially started at 2000 RPM. (see below)
**


{In our first meeting, texas.devops bike was completely stock and mine had ZX-14 header/MRP Flash}
My bike pulled away easily, and was prolly 5-6 lengths ahead after the Roll-on's.
{In this meeting, texas.devops had installed Black Widow Slip-on and MRP Flash. Mine was unchanged}

We went out into the country away from Houston to a looooong straight road.

We initially did 2 roll-on's. Results were inconclusive as each bike led 1 of the Roll-on's. {WTH ??}
** We decided to find out what was going on, and opted to do additional runs. (with differing RPM start and shut down)
We then did our series (and after riding to a "distant" area), stopped to discuss.

Results; "Whichever bike" {that gets the first instant of throttle twist} pulls away about 1 length, the distance remains unchanged, until high RPM's where mine seems to gain.
ie; The bikes are so even now that we called it a draw.
NOTE:
His bike might have a slight advantage at low RPM's.
My bike might have a slight advantage at high RPM's.

MOST IMPORTANT FINDINGS:
The Roll-on tests "clearly show" that his modifications made a difference.

ie; {His mods worked, and the Roll-on Test itself was a success}

Future plans; One of us will do a modification to his bike. (The problem is,, Who ??)
At this point, I'll may install Steve's Reducers.
(This is difficult as his reducer size calculation is based on a single muffler set up)
(I've done roll-on's with others and want only 1 bike changed in those tests too)
or;
We might install a reducer in TeXaS.devops Stock Header.
(Time for Steve to do some calculatin')
(Wouldn't it be cool if the Reducer improves a stock header?) {If so, it could help a lot of folks}.

Ride safe, Ted

PS: No Red or Black spray paint cans were exchanged after the tests.
Ride report;
Yesterday we went out and did Roll-on's. (See posts/photo's above)
I'm prolly 20 lbs heavier, have more weight on my bike, and also have a trunk bag.
His bike is BLACK/(slight disadvantage) Mine is RED.(fastest color)
Tires are both 50 series. I have MRA Vario shield. He has stock.
As always, we used 3rd gear for testing, and initially started at 2000 RPM. (see below)
**


{In our first meeting, texas.devops bike was completely stock and mine had ZX-14 header/MRP Flash}
My bike pulled away easily, and was prolly 5-6 lengths ahead after the Roll-on's.
{In this meeting, texas.devops had installed Black Widow Slip-on and MRP Flash. Mine was unchanged}

We went out into the country away from Houston to a looooong straight road.

We initially did 2 roll-on's. Results were inconclusive as each bike led 1 of the Roll-on's. {WTH ??}
** We decided to find out what was going on, and opted to do additional runs. (with differing RPM start and shut down)
We then did our series (and after riding to a "distant" area), stopped to discuss.

Results; "Whichever bike" {that gets the first instant of throttle twist} pulls away about 1 length, the distance remains unchanged, until high RPM's where mine seems to gain.
ie; The bikes are so even now that we called it a draw.
NOTE:
His bike might have a slight advantage at low RPM's.
My bike might have a slight advantage at high RPM's.

MOST IMPORTANT FINDINGS:
The Roll-on tests "clearly show" that his modifications made a difference.

ie; {His mods worked, and the Roll-on Test itself was a success}

Future plans; One of us will do a modification to his bike. (The problem is,, Who ??)
At this point, I'll may install Steve's Reducers.
(This is difficult as his reducer size calculation is based on a single muffler set up)
(I've done roll-on's with others and want only 1 bike changed in those tests too)
or;
We might install a reducer in TeXaS.devops Stock Header.
(Time for Steve to do some calculatin')
(Wouldn't it be cool if the Reducer improves a stock header?) {If so, it could help a lot of folks}.

Ride safe, Ted

PS: No Red or Black spray paint cans were exchanged after the tests.
Ted, leave Texasdevops bike alone. There's no need to further reduce the flow on the stock header. the cats are acting as an impediment to reversion. All you'll accomplish is knocking out more top end from his bike (or was that your evil plan?) .
Steve
 
Ride report;
Yesterday we went out and did Roll-on's. (See posts/photo's above)
I'm prolly 20 lbs heavier, have more weight on my bike, and also have a trunk bag.
His bike is BLACK/(slight disadvantage) Mine is RED.(fastest color)
Tires are both 50 series. I have MRA Vario shield. He has stock.
As always, we used 3rd gear for testing, and initially started at 2000 RPM. (see below)
**


{In our first meeting, texas.devops bike was completely stock and mine had ZX-14 header/MRP Flash}
My bike pulled away easily, and was prolly 5-6 lengths ahead after the Roll-on's.
{In this meeting, texas.devops had installed Black Widow Slip-on and MRP Flash. Mine was unchanged}

We went out into the country away from Houston to a looooong straight road.

We initially did 2 roll-on's. Results were inconclusive as each bike led 1 of the Roll-on's. {WTH ??}
** We decided to find out what was going on, and opted to do additional runs. (with differing RPM start and shut down)
We then did our series (and after riding to a "distant" area), stopped to discuss.

Results; "Whichever bike" {that gets the first instant of throttle twist} pulls away about 1 length, the distance remains unchanged, until high RPM's where mine seems to gain.
ie; The bikes are so even now that we called it a draw.
NOTE:
His bike might have a slight advantage at low RPM's.
My bike might have a slight advantage at high RPM's.

MOST IMPORTANT FINDINGS:
The Roll-on tests "clearly show" that his modifications made a difference.

ie; {His mods worked, and the Roll-on Test itself was a success}

Future plans; One of us will do a modification to his bike. (The problem is,, Who ??)
At this point, I'll may install Steve's Reducers.
(This is difficult as his reducer size calculation is based on a single muffler set up)
(I've done roll-on's with others and want only 1 bike changed in those tests too)
or;
We might install a reducer in TeXaS.devops Stock Header.
(Time for Steve to do some calculatin')
(Wouldn't it be cool if the Reducer improves a stock header?) {If so, it could help a lot of folks}.

Ride safe, Ted

PS: No Red or Black spray paint cans were exchanged after the tests.

I approve of this ride report. 😎🤙
 
Ok, it's official as TeXaS agrees with my report. 🤠

Steve; Actually, I was thinking of ways to do another test. (throwing out idea's, with only 1 bike having Mods).
As to the evil plan; Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh............

Ride safe, Ted
 
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I have something to say ... it's very interesting seeing the increase in both low and high rpm torque and HP after putting a restriction in the exhaust system.

Now, what size restrictor do I need the get the same results from my BW header?
I'll get that for you and post it in my shoodaben area later today.

Steve
 
PLEASE READ.

Based on posts and PM's I'm getting, COG is doing what COG has always done best, take an idea and analyse it to death before even trying it.

Let's go back to the basics... what were my design goals when I started experimenting?

goal 1) To improve light throttle / lower rpm response and power, lost by larger than stock aftermarket headers;

goal 2) Do it for minimum expense with an easily sourced part, no machining or extensive modifications needed. Something anyone who could bolt a header on could do.

These goals have been getting swept aside in this discussion. Now there's machining / telematic testing and extensive math formulas being considered.

So please STOP.

Just buy a reducer or 2, fit it, and see what you think of it before you re-engineer. In the end, you might take my idea and really improve on it or hone it. But if it gets away from design goal #2, it won't help anyone. Please remember, this is for everyone to improve their bikes with absolutely minimal expense and time involved... at least it was my intent.

Steve

ETA... here's another way to say this, I think most will understand... I'm tired of talking, I want to see some work getting done.
 
PLEASE READ.
Steve

ETA... here's another way to say this, I think most will understand... I'm tired of talking, I want to see some work getting done.
Holy Smokes Steve’s putting us to work, he’s regular slave driving us.

Kidding aside, Thank You Steve for your awesome effort.

As committed I’ll get the AreaP FE dimension today - hopefully no need to fabricate and can purchase an easily sourced parts drop in and rip!
 
Err; The Subject of this discussion is;
Anybody else doing Roll-On (modification) Comparisons?
I've been trying to stir discussion on Roll-on Comparisons since May and it's finally happening.
Yahoooooooo....... I like to "discuss" all idea's.
"Please help me keep the Roll-on Comparison Discussion discussion going".

As always, a discussion slips towards other things. (in this case, "Modification" is part of the original subject)
At this stage, the current Modification happens to be Reducers. (It "was" differing Headers/Flashes/etc)
A subject slip is totally ok by me.
I like to discuss all idea's. (as long as it helps keep the subject (Roll-on Comparisons) going)

Err again; Did everyone Notice that I keep "trying to push" the discussion "back to" Roll-On (modification) comparisons? <sly grin>

Getting back to Roll-On (modification) comparisons, "Fastenova sed",,
I have to say that I've been reading through discussion about the 'Roll-On Tests' in various threads, and while I agree that it is a fun way to see how mods impact your bike's performance, I would tend to think of these as little races. You're only really comparing two different bikes at a given point in time.
He also sed; OK, so having typed all this out, I guess I mean to say that I wouldn't believe a lot of claims about improvement based on Roll-on tests from other people.

So, my question to Fastenova is;
Did the Roll-on Ride Report/Report's and Roll-on Comparison "explanation" help you decide that a "Slip-on and Flash" is a good Modification to try on your new toy?

Ride safe, Ted

PS: Did I happen to mention; Roll-On (modification) comparisons above?? <sneaky grin>
 
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Holy Smokes Steve’s putting us to work, he’s regular slave driving us.

Kidding aside, Thank You Steve for your awesome effort.

As committed I’ll get the AreaP FE dimension today - hopefully no need to fabricate and can purchase an easily sourced parts drop in and rip!
Steve ID of AreaP FE final collector going into the mid-pipe is 2.16” - 2.20”, ovality probably from clamping too hard.
 
Steve ID of AreaP FE final collector going into the mid-pipe is 2.16” - 2.20”, ovality probably from clamping too hard.
we can find a reducer with an OD of appx 2. 140" to 2.150", but that will be loose.

What is the ID of the midpipe where it slip-fits over the final collector? I'm guessing it was built to be 2.25"

Steve
 
Mid pipe ID is 2.26” - 2.29”
in the area where it's flared to fit over the final collector?

If so you can use a reducer that's 2.25OD and reduces to 1.750 ID (AP#8653) OR if you're scared it might take away some top end get AP#8938, it has an exit ID of 2" (I think that's to big). IMO buy both of them. You'll have to shorten the large OD end so that it's just the taper down by the exit reduction area, because you're going to slide this down inside the midpipe flared section and then slide the midpipe back onto the header. Be sure to bevel the leading edge, and if t's loose, you can use a punch and punch some divots from the inside of the reducer to the outside to tighten up the slip fit. NOTE - you can get those reducers at most any auto parts store, or even rock auto or summit racing online.

Steve
 
in the area where it's flared to fit over the final collector?

If so you can use a reducer that's 2.25OD and reduces to 1.750 ID (AP#8653) OR if you're scared it might take away some top end get AP#8938, it has an exit ID of 2" (I think that's to big). IMO buy both of them. You'll have to shorten the large OD end so that it's just the taper down by the exit reduction area, because you're going to slide this down inside the midpipe flared section and then slide the midpipe back onto the header. Be sure to bevel the leading edge, and if t's loose, you can use a punch and punch some divots from the inside of the reducer to the outside to tighten up the slip fit. NOTE - you can get those reducers at most any auto parts store, or even rock auto or summit racing online.

Steve
I’m on it! I’ll try this telemetry App and get some baselines tomorrow - possibly have a live victim as well - then will get insert and redo likely next weekend. Fun times!
 
I've tried some apps on my phone to measure the accels.
All, were unsuccessful, but I'm an admitted Computer/Phone Illiterate.
Hope it works for you.


possibly have a live victim as well,,,,

Do I hear Roll-on Comparison??

Ride safe, Ted
 
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I've tried some apps on my phone to measure the accels.
All, were unsuccessful, but I'm an admitted Computer/Phone Illiterate.
Hope it works for you.


possibly have a live victim as well,,,,

Do I hear Roll-on Comparison??

Ride safe, Ted
Yes - Machine I just did the valves on, AreaP Slip-On and a flash.
 
Sounds good. Hopefully you have a base line already, or will this be a base line without reducer?
If your doing it with the Reducer, (and haven't done a base line) how will you know if it works?
Whatever you do, be safe out there!

To anyone that is just getting into this discussion;
I want to clear something up about the Roll-on (modification) Comparison, by putting it into a simple statement.
The purpose of the Roll-on Comparison is "not" to see whose bike is the fastest.
The purpose of a Roll-on Comparison is to see if a Modification works.


I also want to agree with fastenova; Like him, I'm not into racing on public streets.
If an officer saw you doing this, it would be considered a race.
So, Doing one of these Roll-on Comparisons' is done at the risk of getting a ticket.

NOTE:
We do the test's away from traffic, do only 1 or 2 test's, and stop the accell as soon as the mod has been evaluated. (to prevent triple digits)
Normally, the success of a mod can be determined by 7-8k, but occasionally we do a tad more.

Ride safe, Ted
 
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Baseline will be without reducer.
Our machines under acceleration out of a corner 2nd, 3rd are darn close until the top end where I get a pull away. However this WOT comparison is with our machine carrying 150# more weight - 2up vs. single rider. Previous pulls 1 rider both machine there is no doubt my machine runs away.

Will try the reducer see if there is a difference leaving corners same speed if I can pull away before top.
 
Our machines under acceleration out of a corner 2nd, 3rd are darn close until the top end where I get a pull away. However this WOT comparison is with our machine carrying 150# more weight - 2up vs. single rider. Previous pulls 1 rider both machine there is no doubt my machine runs away.

Will try the reducer see if there is a difference leaving corners same speed if I can pull away before top.
what rpm are you turning WOT at?
 
I’m just gonna recommend a healthy dose of safety awareness and incident response prep when doing the roll-ons with pillions.

It’s one thing to risk ourselves in the name of science, but quite another to bring additional unsprung weight along on test runs.

Have fun and keep both wheels down. AB
 
2andblue; Ahh Haa. I see the method to your madness..
ie; The wife doesn't allow competitive accels, but spirited acceleration out of corners is ok.

This isn't quite the same as my Roll-on test, but it is a decent base line for a comparison later.
As Steve noted, it is above the prime RPM's where the Reducer would show itself.
But, it should show if the reducer works for your riding style.
And, momma is still happy.
 
I'd put my 2014 BLACK C-14 with a stock exhaust and Shoodabeen flash up against anything with $ to back it up.
My fault for poking and picking at Ted "the truth is coming", blah blah blah.

No all out street racing anyone. I will tone my eagerness to see Ted handover the torch to a faster, stronger color..

Will be first to admit I enjoy a spirited ride, both my wife and I do. My wife is the smarter of us two, I admit it freely, and checks me when we get too hot or for safety of others following us - so no straight out street racing is allowed period. Slip the notion to a fellow rider "over the next series of miles we will do x and when" and see what performs better and where - I can get away with that... lol
 
so you realise you're getting outside what the reducer is designed to do, correct?
If just put-put or cruising my shift range is usually 4K - 4.5K and have Quickshifter only set to engage above 4K. During decel if below 3500 - 3800 will downshift a gear.

To me there are two separate power bands on this machine, one 3300 - 4300 then 5400 to the 🌙. I prefer the higher band.
 
If just put-put or cruising my shift range is usually 4K - 4.5K and have Quickshifter only set to engage above 4K. During decel if below 3500 - 3800 will downshift a gear.

To me there are two separate power bands on this machine, one 3300 - 4300 then 5400 to the 🌙. I prefer the higher band.
When you are just put-putting around, You're using lower rpm and light throttle. That's the area the reducer should help in. That's the area the big header pipe is being lazy in. And I have to ask - as you asked a previous poster (but in reverse) are you maybe keeping more rpm's on it because it's lacking in the lower rpms?
Steve
 
I'm with 802740..
I'd put my 2014 BLACK C-14 with a stock exhaust and Shoodabeen flash up against anything with $ to back it up.
Once you've gone black, you'll never go back
Nick
2014 C-14 Black

Don't say that to Ted, he's brainwashed and thinks Red is fast and is well past the point of reason. He's so far gone he has his neighbors kids painting their bicycles red. He really needs an intervention...... :ROFLMAO:
 
When you are just put-putting around, You're using lower rpm and light throttle. That's the area the reducer should help in. That's the area the big header pipe is being lazy in. And I have to ask - as you asked a previous poster (but in reverse) are you maybe keeping more rpm's on it because it's lacking in the lower rpms?
Steve
We should define better more RPM’s… I don’t find 4K to 4.5K shift point to be an excessive / high RPM when put-putting. Then above put-putting staying above 5K I have instant ticket ship.
 
We should define better more RPM’s… I don’t find 4K to 4.5K shift point to be an excessive / high RPM when put-putting. Then above put-putting staying above 5K I have instant ticket ship.
When your just traveling down a long straight road, getting from place to place, (highways) what gear and rpm's do you usually travel at?

Most of my riding is commuting highways back and forth to work. I'm usually in 6th gear running between 3000 and 4000 rpm's.
 
Unlike ones that can or do trailer most of our odometer (50% or more) is spent getting to POI.

In these settled miles, outside of spirited times or steep mountains, above 60mph we’re in 6th gear / on average.
 
I've been monitoring the discussions.
I think his Roll-on test will be good enough for a comparison.
ie; His (2and blue) method is Not as good as my way of doing it, but ehhhh'... <smarty eleck grin> 😆

Waiting for his repeat Roll-on Comparison.
Hopefully he (2and blue) will follow thru with some additional tests, soon.
NOTE: I also think he should also give us his thoughts on low speed/light throttle feel.

IMPORTANT:
Every header is designed differently.
,,What reducer works for one, may "will" be different for another.
,,,What 1 rider likes will also be different from another's wants..
(As I sed previously) This idea is a work in progress...
Lets find out if it works for differing individuals and differing exhaust systems.
ie; We need others to do some reducer installations, and then some Roll-On Comparison Testing.
Hint! HINT!!!!


Note; The Area P Header is the biggest tube'd header that I know of for the C-14.
The ones I know of; (Stock ZG, ZX-14, ZX-14R, Black Widow, Delkevic, Area P, Yoshimira, Muzzy)
So, it will take some testing to find out the best reducer size's.

By the way;
My RED bike has 2 mufflers. It has the ZX-14 Header.
I've been working on reducers for the 2 mid pipes.
{Steve's been helping me figure out the reducer size to try.}
We found only 1 commercially available size that almost fits in my pipes. I bought them immediately.. ($14)
Unfortunately, they don't fit tightly. So,,, I put them in my lathe and I'm modifying the reducers we bought.
,,,,(As usual), I'm (overengineering) the process.
,,,,,I am NOT a machinist!!
Eventually, I'll have an answer on mine...

EXCUSE : During this past week, and continuing; I've been having Kidney Stone issues.
It's not EZ to do anything while crying with pain.. {Gloom}

Ride safe, Ted
 
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Ted, I think there IS a formula that will work across the board. Remember the issue is to first find the reducer that doesn't' cost WOT power but also enhances light throttle power .

After the tests I've done the formula is that the discharge nozzle ID should be the same or very close to the OD of 1 header pipe.
This would be for a 4 pipe into 1 muffler system.


That same formula might work across the board, but what folks need to understand is that the idea is to stop light throttle reversion / passive EGR action through the exhaust back to the cylinders. The smaller you can go without losing top end power may be beneficial, but you'll be at the point of needing a dyno to see if you're starting to hurt the WOT power.

I also think there's potential for increased fuel economy.

Steve
 
Look at what just showed up! Sorry to hear about the kidney stones Ted. I'm sure that's a pain. I am a machinist if you need any help.
 

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Uhh ohhhh. I see tinkerin' (and a re-match) comin'.. (y)
(I have Ideers) 😵

I finally passed 2 stones on Wednesday, so no Machinist needed there. 🥴

I have the reducers almost ready for final install in my headers (mine are the same headers as in photo)
I had to stretch the big ends of the reducers I bought. (to get them to fit ID of exhaust ports)
I made sleeves for the small ends. (to get them to the ID Steve suggested) (So, I can now test with 2 different ID's if needed)
Excuse; Other projects (and 1 week of stones) have been slowing me down.

Ride safe, Ted
 
Ok, back from the deer hunt. Stones have processed thru. Other projects done..
Will be working on the reducer again..

While I was away has anyone done more Roll-on test's or testing of Reducers?

Ride safe, Ted
 
Ok, back from the deer hunt. Stones have processed thru. Other projects done..
Will be working on the reducer again..

While I was away has anyone done more Roll-on test's or testing of Reducers?

Ride safe, Ted
Turbojoe did the reducer in his Black Widow system. He posted about it in the Black Widow torque thread in my Shoodaben area.

Steve
 
Ok, back from the deer hunt. Stones have processed thru. Other projects done..
Will be working on the reducer again..

While I was away has anyone done more Roll-on test's or testing of Reducers?

Ride safe, Ted
Bow hunting as I type. Pretty slow. Riding season over and none of my buddies will roll on with me! I will try next spring with a buddies Valkyrie.
 
Back from Mexico with another Roll-on Report.
Go to Reply #126 for previous test info.

This morning I completed the installation of 2 Reducers in my exhaust system.
Each Reducer has a 1.40" ID.

Ride report; The results are;
His bike now pulls away from mine (approx. 1 length) as we start the test.
At mid RPM's he stops pulling away.
At high RPM's my bike pulls up or ahead of his.

I'll wait for input from Steve/others before I try another step.
Right now, I feel the the 1.40" Reducers hurt my bike in the lower RPM Range.
It feels a little tiny bit sluggish at WOT/Low RPM accels.
At lower throttle settings, it feels about the same as before, but a twisty road is needed to evaluate that.
At high RPM's it did not seem to hurt the acceleration.

Ride safe, Ted

PS: My header is different than the BW/Delkevic/Area P as mine is a 4 into 2 system with small head pipes.
So, the results of my test may/will not be the same as results from the other headers.
 
Back from Mexico with another Roll-on Report.
Go to Reply #126 for previous test info.

This morning I completed the installation of 2 Reducers in my exhaust system.
Each Reducer has a 1.40" ID.

Ride report; The results are;
His bike now pulls away from mine (approx. 1 length) as we start the test.
At mid RPM's he stops pulling away.
At high RPM's my bike pulls up or ahead of his.

I'll wait for input from Steve/others before I try another step.
Right now, I feel the the 1.40" Reducers hurt my bike in the lower RPM Range.
It feels a little tiny bit sluggish at WOT/Low RPM accels.
At lower throttle settings, it feels about the same as before, but a twisty road is needed to evaluate that.
At high RPM's it did not seem to hurt the acceleration.

Ride safe, Ted

PS: My header is different than the BW/Delkevic/Area P as mine is a 4 into 2 system with small head pipes.
So, the results of my test may/will not be the same as results from the other headers.

So go back up to the formula of each reducer ID being = 1 header pipe diameter. Maybe even +.125". You're right, the dual muffler system and whatever amount of turbulance is going on as the flow splits is the issue. Still, I'm surprised low rpm suffered, I would have expected to see that on the top end, which it seems like you're not experiencing. I think it's possible that it's hosed up the jetting down low (rich) . Very strange that you're catching and passing at high rpms... since you were very even before, this to me means you are actually getting more power than before as the rpm's rise.

ETA: this is an experiment, correct? Next thing I would do is remove 1 of the reducers and go do the roll ons again.

Steve

Steve
 
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I'll admit that the results didn't come out as I expected.
I thought;
(low/mid RPM's would improve or remain the same)
(high RPM's would remain the same, or loose power)
ie; The results are the reverse of what I expected.

My "next step" thought was;
1) Install the 1.25" Reducers (and see what happens).
2) Remove the 1.40" Reducers (and see if the bikes repeat our previous tests)
I hadn't thought about removing 1 of the reducers.
That is an option I haven't considered, and I think it's a good plan.

NOTE: This discussion is primarily a Roll-on Test discussion.
I've been trying to explain the process, and get others to do tests and report.
That said, I'll re-post what I said after our second series of tests.

MOST IMPORTANT FINDINGS:
The (recent) Roll-on tests "clearly show" that the modifications made a difference.

Ride safe, Ted
 
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NOTE: This discussion is primarily a Roll-on Test discussion.
I've been trying to explain the process, and get others to do tests and report.




Ride safe, Ted

I think you're mostly going to hear crickets until you're done testing. Those who try this are the lab rats of the COG laboratory. Everyone else is sitting back and seeing what happens. Or they just don't care, but for such an easy mod that's not really consistent with the bikers I know.

Steve
 
No. Still on the work bench.
(I have someone help me get the bike off the bench as I dropped my C-10 while trying to do it alone)
Haven't found any help yet.
Mebbe today.
 
No. Still on the work bench.
(I have someone help me get the bike off the bench as I dropped my C-10 while trying to do it alone)
Haven't found any help yet.
Mebbe today.
Wow, we're getting old. I have a fork cartidge kit for my versys1000 waiting for installation... I can't put it on the lift and centerstand it yet, still to weak, post operation.

steve
 
Update; Didn't get it off the table.
Wasn't home/had to take care of some things for my Mom/neighbor not available.
Going hunting today, so prolly next week.

Other excuse's;
I'm retired. (I can always put something off, for another day) 🥴
My co-tester isn't available. (Younger, and still has to work for a living) 😆
Cold (Last night it got all the way down to 50* brrrr) 🤠

Ride safe, Ted
 
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Gonna drop this here for research purposes. Not sure whose '08 that is but it sure sounds nice! BW header and Delk can is a pretty sweet sounding combo. Not where I'm headed (investment wise), but interested to hear what y'all think.
 
100% true?
Not really sure how to take this. You're new, I've been a member since 2005. I don't know what info you have that would have you to question my honesty.

Of course it's 100% true.

I frequent all the Concours sites and pages. I know what goes on everywhere, not just here. Guys contantly call / email me for tech advise. I talk to a bunch of folks each week. Do I know all about that video? Yes, in fact the dyno chart from it is what I posted a few posts back. I knew about it from the owner before the video was posted. I had the dyno charts before it was posted. I talked with him before he even went to Moore's and told him how it would turn out. It went how I said it would. He got a couple more HP and his fuel economy is unacceptable. I even made a comment in the comment section of the video.

And what info do you have to question my honesty? I'd like to hear it. Please post it for all to see.

Steve
 
Not really sure how to take this. You're new, I've been a member since 2005. I don't know what info you have that would have you to question my honesty.

Of course it's 100% true.

I frequent all the Concours sites and pages. I know what goes on everywhere, not just here. Guys contantly call / email me for tech advise. I talk to a bunch of folks each week. Do I know all about that video? Yes, in fact the dyno chart from it is what I posted a few posts back. I knew about it from the owner before the video was posted. I had the dyno charts before it was posted. I talked with him before he even went to Moore's and told him how it would turn out. It went how I said it would. He got a couple more HP and his fuel economy is unacceptable. I even made a comment in the comment section of the video.

And what info do you have to question my honesty? I'd like to hear it. Please post it for all to see.

Steve

I was asking if it was 100% true, not necessarily questioning your honesty as a person... a lot people talk on the internet. That person had an ecu flash he was not happy with. Got it dyno tuned and then posted how happy he was with it on YouTube. Your post made it seem he is not happy which contradicted his own review pinned on that channel. So yea, that part is surprising.

I think a lot of people would be interested in that scenario.
 
I was asking if it was 100% true, not necessarily questioning your honesty as a person.

If a person says something that's not 100% honest, then they are not being honest. case closed.

Trust me, I know a lot of truth of what happens in the concours world, including a real inconvienient truth that some of my unique work is in at least 2 others tuners files that they are making money on. And yeah... 100% true.

Steve
 
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If a person says something that's not 100% honest, then they are not being honest. case closed.

Trust me, I know a lot of truth of what happens in the concours world, including a real inconvienient truth about one of the most popular tuners for this model. And yeah... 100% true. Be careful what you wish for.

Steve

hey man, im just a person who owns a concours. its odd to be warned to be careful on the internet like that. ive owned many bikes and haven't experienced a warning on a forum like this. in my opinion, if there is a known problem with anything that is popular with a specific service I would expect everyone to be up front about it. for example, if I knew that a specific tuner was providing a subpar tune, or a specific product was inferior, I would just state it . I would let the group of owners know of the issue I am seeing. that is one of the reasons we are all here for right?

idk man, I apologize if you took my initial response as anything but inquisitive. I am interested in tuning and services/products that are available for the bike we all share an interest in.

what is the real inconvenient truth?
 
hey man, im just a person who owns a concours. its odd to be warned to be careful on the internet like that. ive owned many bikes and haven't experienced a warning on a forum like this. in my opinion, if there is a known problem with anything that is popular with a specific service I would expect everyone to be up front about it. for example, if I knew that a specific tuner was providing a subpar tune, or a specific product was inferior, I would just state it . I would let the group of owners know of the issue I am seeing. that is one of the reasons we are all here for right?

idk man, I apologize if you took my initial response as anything but inquisitive. I am interested in tuning and services/products that are available for the bike we all share an interest in.

what is the real inconvenient truth?
apparently i was editing that post while you were posting this one. Read my edited post. the answer is there.

Steve
 
others stole your work? that sounds pretty sticky. and that sucks
and not to depreciate that statement, but who? who should the owners here avoid as quality tuners?
 
others stole your work? that sounds pretty sticky. and that sucks
and not to depreciate that statement, but who? who should the owners here avoid as quality tuners?

The forum rules won't let me state who. I will tell you this... the original one is the original tune in the video we're discussing, the second is the one who posted the video, though he was copying the original tuners work, not knowing my work was in there. Still, he didn't return to a stock bin file, he built on the other tuners unique work. I got this info from the owner. Meanwhile I haven't taken 1 single map value from anyone else's work other than the stock bin file as a base. In fact my first tune predates all others currently tuning this model by at least 2 years. I have learned that this is a "buyer beware" sleight of hand business with some tuners. They take your work, and accuse you of taking theirs. The customers get bounced around like a beach ball.

Steve
 
Trust me, I know a lot of truth of what happens in the concours world, including a real inconvienient truth that some of my unique work is in at least 2 others tuners files that they are making money on. And yeah... 100% true.

Steve
Steve,

I assume you are aware, the theft or fraud of intellectual property is a serious crime that the US government is investing significant resources to assist small businesses - see: National Intellectual Property Rights Center more about their mission here and here’s where you file a complaint to get resources to assist.

I think anyone can enter the claim if they believe IP theft has occurred not just the business owner… if someone is stealing from you Steve they’re stealing from others and should be reported, are you filing yet? Hope the links help.
 
Steve,

I assume you are aware, the theft or fraud of intellectual property is a serious crime that the US government is investing significant resources to assist small businesses - see: National Intellectual Property Rights Center more about their mission here and here’s where you file a complaint to get resources to assist.

I think anyone can enter the claim if they believe IP theft has occurred not just the business owner… if someone is stealing from you Steve they’re stealing from others and should be reported, are you filing yet? Hope the links help.

The issue here is that nobody's work in this area is patent protected or copyrighted. In order for intillectual theft to be upheld, you need a layer of protection. Example... I have an item that has been granted a patent. During the time the patent was enforceable, had it been copied I could seek some type of legal remedy - IF i had enough money to enforce the patent. That seems to be the part folks forget - in cases like this the only people to make money are the lawyers. But just like there's no legal protection of my work, There's also no legal reason I can't state the truth publically. I'm not slandering any person or company if I can prove what I say. Meanwhile, I have been slandered repeatedly, but took no legal acton because of the financial cost associated (yes, I've consulted lawyers). Like I said, the only ones who will make any money are the lawyers. Also, it seems the links you provided had more to do with issues like China stealing copywrited or patented materials and selling them back to us on a large scale, not something like we're discussing here.

I think we've gone full on thread hijack.

Steve
 
The issue here is that nobody's work in this area is patent protected or copyrighted. In order for intillectual theft to be upheld, you need a layer of protection. Example... I have an item that has been granted a patent. During the time the patent was enforceable, had it been copied I could seek some type of legal remedy - IF i had enough money to enforce the patent. That seems to be the part folks forget - in cases like this the only people to make money are the lawyers. But just like there's no legal protection of my work, There's also no legal reason I can't state the truth publically. I'm not slandering any person or company if I can prove what I say. Meanwhile, I have been slandered repeatedly, but took no legal acton because of the financial cost associated (yes, I've consulted lawyers). Like I said, the only ones who will make any money are the lawyers. Also, it seems the links you provided had more to do with issues like China stealing copywrited or patented materials and selling them back to us on a large scale, not something like we're discussing here.

I think we've gone full on thread hijack.

Steve
Agree way off track - it happens.

Domestic or INTL you can file then the Feds get involved and do their thing. I would file if I were you, either way..
 
No. Still on the work bench.
(I have someone help me get the bike off the bench as I dropped my C-10 while trying to do it alone)
Haven't found any help yet.
Mebbe today.
Ted you get that machine off the table yet? Get a first drive with the updated reducer?
 
Not yet. (I know that it's been on the bench since Nov. 17,,,,,, Guess I'm a slacker)
Excuses;
I've been having kidney stone issues. (5 BB's so far)
I moved into the deer hunting mode. lots of deer to see, but no Mr Big.
I did some Thanksgiving blessings. (ie; Ate too much)
This week, I'm planning to take my mom to the Dr., then do a few more days of hunting.
Followed by; load some ammo and sight in a rifle. (We're trying to work up a load for a 307)
(Yes, I sed 307)

NOTE: I have cranked the bike and (with 1 reducer) it seems sharper than it did with 2 reducers.
Soon; I'll do a test ride, and see how it feels (ie; butt dyno test).
But I won't actually know anything until I do a roll-on-comparison with old "you-know-who".

Getting back to the discussion topic. Has "anyone else" done any Roll-on-comparisons?

Oh,,, and speaking of slackers; 2andblue; Did you ever do your reducer install, and repeat your modified roll-on test?
See post #145/(err) Oct 24..
ie; Will try the reducer see if there is a difference leaving corners same speed if I can pull away before top.


Ride safe, Ted <evil grin>
 
Not yet. (I know that it's been on the bench since Nov. 17,,,,,, Guess I'm a slacker)
Excuses;
I've been having kidney stone issues. (5 BB's so far)
I moved into the deer hunting mode. lots of deer to see, but no Mr Big.
I did some Thanksgiving blessings. (ie; Ate too much)
This week, I'm planning to take my mom to the Dr., then do a few more days of hunting.
Followed by; load some ammo and sight in a rifle. (We're trying to work up a load for a 307)
(Yes, I sed 307)

NOTE: I have cranked the bike and (with 1 reducer) it seems sharper than it did with 2 reducers.
Soon; I'll do a test ride, and see how it feels (ie; butt dyno test).
But I won't actually know anything until I do a roll-on-comparison with old "you-know-who".

Getting back to the discussion topic. Has "anyone else" done any Roll-on-comparisons?

Oh,,, and speaking of slackers; 2andblue; Did you ever do your reducer install, and repeat your modified roll-on test?
See post #145/(err) Oct 24..
ie; Will try the reducer see if there is a difference leaving corners same speed if I can pull away before top.


Ride safe, Ted <evil grin>
Slacking / well sorta - been tied up like nobody’s business.
 
I'm sitting over here with pneumonia and getting as much done as you bunch of slackers are. So where is the progress? o_O
o_O o_O o_O o_O o_O o_O

Steve
LOVE IT - Ted I think we ( I ) are being called out. Going to have to do something about that.

Get better Steve - sorry to hear you are ill - especially after your recent surgery be very mindful.
 
The first step has been taken. Several changes to come. Ill soon be rolling on and away from the Red Scurge Rocket.

 

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Apparently, a Gauntlet has been thrown.
Anxious to see what you learn.

I'll soon be rolling on and away from the Red Scurge Rocket.
PS: When {if} that happens, remember that I "DO" know how to cheat.

Ride safe, Ted
 
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The issue here is that nobody's work in this area is patent protected or copyrighted. In order for intillectual theft to be upheld, you need a layer of protection. Example... I have an item that has been granted a patent. During the time the patent was enforceable, had it been copied I could seek some type of legal remedy - IF i had enough money to enforce the patent. That seems to be the part folks forget - in cases like this the only people to make money are the lawyers. But just like there's no legal protection of my work, There's also no legal reason I can't state the truth publically. I'm not slandering any person or company if I can prove what I say. Meanwhile, I have been slandered repeatedly, but took no legal acton because of the financial cost associated (yes, I've consulted lawyers). Like I said, the only ones who will make any money are the lawyers. Also, it seems the links you provided had more to do with issues like China stealing copywrited or patented materials and selling them back to us on a large scale, not something like we're discussing here.

I think we've gone full on thread hijack.

Steve
Steve, the board of directors response to your request is answered to your post in the Shoodaben Engineering sub forum.

COG must remain neutral in this matter for legal reasons and COG in no way condones the theft of intellectual property.

We respectfully ask that discussions of this legal matter cease on the COG forums so COG may remain a neutral party in these allegations.

Off the record
, I would not like it either if my hard work was purloined for pecuniary gain.

Now back to the roll on discussion with a caution to leave allegations out of discussions on any COG forum.

Craig
 
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