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C14 cams going back in...roadblock!

Smokeyjoe

Member
Member
Greetings:)
2011 C14...valve adj...60k miles...have been wrenching for quite a while...using Fred's videos and factory manual...

Now...shims are in, going back together in progress...
ROADBLOCK...with timing marks aligned and chain taught, I tighten the cam holders down on the exhaust cam and the camshaft rotates and turns clockwise. This moves the timing marks (exhaust cam and crankshaft). Has anyone experienced this? Thanks for any advice...cheers:)
Jack!
 
I’ve had to reset before, don’t get in a hurry.

Take the caps off, Reset Timing Chain Tensioner, redo timing, tighten down again and don’t worry if it looks slightly off at first turn the engine over then double check your marks.

I have double guessed myself before on assembly, notched over one gear to find out should have left alone.

Where you located?
 
Install cams and get the marks set on them, then install the cam chain tensioner. Also, when you set the marks, make sure the cams are rotated so that the FRONT side of the cam chain is tight. All the slack in the cam chain needs to be at the rear. The cam chain tensioner will keep the chain tight and prevent the cams from trying to rotate while you tighten down the cam shaft cap bolts.

Once you have the cams fully installed, I like to remove the tensioner, and reset it and reinstall it a second time. This insures that the tensioner sets the tension properly with the cams fully bolted down.
 
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This is the advantage of a manual tensioner, and why I built one. With a manual, you set it to the correct depth before you pull the cams out. You will always have the proper amount of slack at the rear and thing won't rotate when reinstalling the cams. if you need some slack while removing or reinstalling, just back the mounting screws out, or back out the plunger bolt out a couple turns but don't move the locking nut on the plunger bolt. That way you can always return to the correct depth.

Anyone who is doing numerous valve adjustments should have this handy tool in their kit.

Steve
 
The important thing is that the gears (cams/crank) don't "jump a tooth" on the chain. I always add match-marks on the chain and gear teeth to be sure. I also add a bungee chord from above to tension the chain while the cams are out to keep the crank gear/chain in place.
 
The important thing is that the gears (cams/crank) don't "jump a tooth" on the chain. I always add match-marks on the chain and gear teeth to be sure. I also add a bungee chord from above to tension the chain while the cams are out to keep the crank gear/chain in place.
I always replace the cam chain when doing the valves, which eliminates the method quoted. I know that method works but I always had trouble with the markings disappearing. Even paint somehow dissolved.

The reason I replace the chain is the severe stretching I've seen on my own bike. Others haven't been quite as bad. That big old VVT flywheel does a number on the chain if you run the motor hard often. I've seen the timing mark on the intake be over an 1/8 inch past the head surface. In 30 links, that's .005" per link. That's a lot!! And if you apply that much stretch to the whole chain then the stock adjuster soon becomes inadequate. I took mine apart the second time and the plunger fell out!. Since then its new chains and manual tensioners for me.
 
I always replace the cam chain when doing the valves, which eliminates the method quoted. I know that method works but I always had trouble with the markings disappearing. Even paint somehow dissolved.

The reason I replace the chain is the severe stretching I've seen on my own bike. Others haven't been quite as bad. That big old VVT flywheel does a number on the chain if you run the motor hard often. I've seen the timing mark on the intake be over an 1/8 inch past the head surface. In 30 links, that's .005" per link. That's a lot!! And if you apply that much stretch to the whole chain then the stock adjuster soon becomes inadequate. I took mine apart the second time and the plunger fell out!. Since then its new chains and manual tensioners for me.
Wow - will need to double check ours next spec check. Marks were perfectly aligned but have been running motor much harder since.
 
I’ve had to reset before, don’t get in a hurry.

Take the caps off, Reset Timing Chain Tensioner, redo timing, tighten down again and don’t worry if it looks slightly off at first turn the engine over then double check your marks.

I have double guessed myself before on assembly, notched over one gear to find out should have left alone.

Where you located?
Thanks 2:) Used the tensioner and it worked out. Rotated engine a couple of times and timing is "spot on". E Sobrante, CA is home:)
 
I always replace the cam chain when doing the valves, which eliminates the method quoted. I know that method works but I always had trouble with the markings disappearing. Even paint somehow dissolved.

The reason I replace the chain is the severe stretching I've seen on my own bike. Others haven't been quite as bad. That big old VVT flywheel does a number on the chain if you run the motor hard often. I've seen the timing mark on the intake be over an 1/8 inch past the head surface. In 30 links, that's .005" per link. That's a lot!! And if you apply that much stretch to the whole chain then the stock adjuster soon becomes inadequate. I took mine apart the second time and the plunger fell out!. Since then its new chains and manual tensioners for me.
I am not familiar with changing the cam chain and haven't looked at the shop manual so please understand my ignorance with this question. Doesn't the cam chain run around the crankshaft on a continuous chain with no master link? If the cam chain does use a master link then it is obviously not that time consuming or difficult to do.
 
Ok, it's a little disturbing if you have to change the timing chain with each valve check/adjustment. Still, you can use my method by just marking the pulleys and counting links bewteen cam marks and the cam/crank marks. No downside to this, and it allows a cross-check.
 
Ok, it's a little disturbing if you have to change the timing chain with each valve check/adjustment. Still, you can use my method by just marking the pulleys and counting links bewteen cam marks and the cam/crank marks. No downside to this, and it allows a cross-check.
One caveat here: If during maintenance the chain loses tension the chain will come loose from the crankshaft gear and then your datum is no good.

Agreed on chain replacement each adjustment, that is why I stated WOW never would have thunk.
 
I am not familiar with changing the cam chain and haven't looked at the shop manual so please understand my ignorance with this question. Doesn't the cam chain run around the crankshaft on a continuous chain with no master link? If the cam chain does use a master link then it is obviously not that time consuming or difficult to do.
Cam Chain can be removed by removing the timing rotor; front / rear chain guides and a locating dowel pin. Rotor removal you'll need a tool to hold the engine from rotating - flywheel holder.
 
Funny, I did a video on you tube outlining the effect high rpm with the VVT module would have on the timing chain, amongst other parts.

Steve
@Steve in sunny Fla - That was an interesting video, and the broken key. I was just connecting the two from your video - rotating mass / weight, etc., and impact on the cam chain.

Have not heard either (key or chain) being a widespread issue, never anyone changing the chain at any frequency (not that it is a bad idea) and for sure not only myself running these engines to higher end RPMs on a regular basis.

Will see on next valve check if there is any visual runout on the timing alignment, perfect before and other machines I've touched perfect too.

@Fred H. have you seen any chains needing replacement from stretching that don't have a zillion miles? And any machines that you know are used spiritedly do you see any frequency of failure or stretching?
 
2andblue...I'm not sure what you mean by "losing your datum". If you put marks on all the gears...and know the number of links between marks...it doesn't matter that you removed the chain (but it does require a mark on the crank and counting links). You can only time the gears to the closest link afterall.
 
2andblue...I'm not sure what you mean by "losing your datum". If you put marks on all the gears...and know the number of links between marks...it doesn't matter that you removed the chain (but it does require a mark on the crank and counting links). You can only time the gears to the closest link afterall.
You are absolutely correct if you mark both the chain and the gears even if chain comes off crank sprocket as long as chain gets back onto the sprocket correctly should not be any issue.
 
DONE!! Feels great:)
Just to add to informal valve adjustment data base...Fwiw...
2011 C 14...60k approx...
7 exhaust shims needed change (all too tight)
8 intake shims needed change (also all too tight)

Note...I don't know previous history of bike. No obvious signs of previous adjustments.

Bike thanks to Fred and his videos. His tips/guidance were appreciated:)
 
2011 C 14...60k approx...
7 exhaust shims needed change (all too tight)
8 intake shims needed change (also all too tight)

Note...I don't know previous history of bike. No obvious signs of previous adjustments.
A couple more data points, both from 1st-time valve adjustments (both at ~15k):

2008 ABS - 2 exhaust and 1 intake tight. All others well within acceptable service limits.

2012 - 8 exhaust and 6 intake tight. One of the intakes measured .0035" clearance.

Both bikes were ridden identically throughout their lives to date.
 
IMO , what you see at the first adjustment may not mean much. What were the clearances set at when the engine was built ? I think what is seen at the second adjustment means more as long as the Owner did the first adjustment properly and kept a record of the clearances after the first adjustment was done.
 
IMO , what you see at the first adjustment may not mean much. What were the clearances set at when the engine was built ? I think what is seen at the second adjustment means more as long as the Owner did the first adjustment properly and kept a record of the clearances after the first adjustment was done.
No doubt IBAJIM - completely agreed.

Seems common most not seeing much movement after initial adjustment.
 
If you count the timing chain pins before you rotate the motor to set the tensioner, you can verify with the hash marks on the cams head, and pins
 
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