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Connie Won't Shift - Advice needed

Mudhound

Big Wheel
My 1997 C10 will not come out of first gear.  I was out for a ride, probably in 3rd gear, and tried to up shift and it wouldn't take. It just felt dead. I should note that on a couple rides before this, it had issues with up shifts, but I thought my boot was just hitting on something and it always shifted on a second attempt. So, I pulled over to look at the linkage, played with it a bit and in the process downshifted to second, but it would not up shift. At that point I rode home in second gear. Once home, I played with the shift lever again and it downshifted to first. It wouldn't up shift, or go into neutral. I then did some research on this site, felt fairly confident it was a linkage issue, probably a spring and took it to a shop. After a month in the shop, they've decided it's probably something to do with the shifting forks, and not a linkage spring. They are estimating 12 - 15 hours to open the gearbox and since that would cost $1500 - $2000, I should probably just take it home and shoot it. At least there aren't charging me for doing nothing. So, now what? Should I get a second opinion or accept that my motor is a boat anchor? Thanks. 
 
Don't shoot it yet. I think there are some easy to get at parts that may be your problem though you will have to wait for someone that has specific knowledge about it to come along.

Paging M.O.B., to the white courtesy phone, please.

Good Luck.
 
Mudhound said:
My 1997 C10 will not come out of first gear.  I was out for a ride, probably in 3rd gear, and tried to up shift and it wouldn't take. It just felt dead. I should note that on a couple rides before this, it had issues with up shifts, but I thought my boot was just hitting on something and it always shifted on a second attempt. So, I pulled over to look at the linkage, played with it a bit and in the process downshifted to second, but it would not up shift. At that point I rode home in second gear. Once home, I played with the shift lever again and it downshifted to first. It wouldn't up shift, or go into neutral. I then did some research on this site, felt fairly confident it was a linkage issue, probably a spring and took it to a shop. After a month in the shop, they've decided it's probably something to do with the shifting forks, and not a linkage spring. They are estimating 12 - 15 hours to open the gearbox and since that would cost $1500 - $2000, I should probably just take it home and shoot it. At least there aren't charging me for doing nothing. So, now what? Should I get a second opinion or accept that my motor is a boat anchor? Thanks.

OK, DON'T SHOOT IT....
Now, here is 'your second opinion', IMHO the guys you took it to, are total dorks, and simply want to milk your wallet....
because, they HAD IT FOR A MONTH,  and never did anything... then they say it's forks..

first off, I'll explain something, in order for any upshifts past 1st gear, to occur, the transmission gears must be spinning, so trying to shift 'up' with the bike sitting stationary, should only allow it to go from 1st, to neutral, and back down... there are detent 'lockout' balls located in the gear drive, preventing upshifting unless that shaft is rotating.
Now, the most common (bent forks are very "uncommon" on this bike, unless you yourself have been banging gears without the clutch, repeatedly, so if you never did so, it ain't forks), failure is a displaced spring, or broken spring, or both, on the selector mechanism that 'drives' the camming action for shifting to occur. This whole mechanism is on the side of the engine case, and does NOT require the engines removal, and splitting of the upper and lower case halves, as you 'tech's' have predisposed was needed... it's a simple matter of removing the outer 'parts, and the bevel drive housing (about 1 hour max), to examine the drum, and shift lever actuator, and springs. (and another hour MAX to re-assemble). Upon examination it should be clear if this is indeed the issue, and in 90% of the shift failures reported here, and on the other forum, this was the 'zone' where a failure occurred... spring dislodged is the most common, and spring breakage, second, but in reality, it's about $30 max in parts.

Soooo, don't shoot the mule, it's not a big job to fix, and can easily be done in a 4 hour span, with little cost... it may take a day or so to get a part, if needed, but it ain't a $1500 job....

take that to the 'techs', and tell them they owe you a month's riding time for holding the bike, and never inspecting what I said above... they are jerks, and really don't want your business, just your money...
I've attached 2 pages below, for your examination of what I'm speaking of, and you can see clearly the area of the shift lever, and springs... read it....

 

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  • SHIFTER 2.pdf
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attached in addition below, is an exploded parts view, note there are 3 different 'coiled' springs, and also a flat 'arched' spring, all in the shifter actuator mechanism...

these, and the 'pin' that it rides on, all all points of failure which will prevent the actuation... again, I've personally never seen a Concours 'fork' needed, even on some severely abused bikes..

best of luck,
 

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  • SHIFTER 3.pdf
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Man of Blues - I agree that the shop doesn't want to work on it, but they also don't want my money. They basically asked me to just come get it and they won't charge me. 

I appreciate the diagrams and the info regarding the shifting forks. It was shifting fine right before this happened. I really think it's a spring (and so did the shop up until today). I'm worried about doing this myself, just because I know I'm not good with this sort of mechanics. Things usually come apart easily enough, but I can't get them back together.  I'm going to pick the bike up tomorrow and I might try taking it to another shop I've used with some success. If they aren't interested in checking the various linkage springs, then I'll bring it home and tear it apart myself. 
 
They clearly wanted your money, don't mistake that.... that's why they quoted a case split, and costs associated, without even delving into the obvious...had you signed on a paper, they would have done what I explained, and billed you for $2k, saying they had to split cases.. no way...  and probably danced you around for another month in the mean time...

as for them not charging you.... I would be steaming mad, and make a point of being in the showroom, asking loudly "why you had my bike for a MONTH, and didn't even do a thing... charge you"????

Honest mechanics aren't all gone yet, some are still in business.. you need to find one, and asking around here for referrals in your area/local would be beneficial at this point...
post in the open area. general chat, and ask around...
This is a thing COG members (when you join the organization) do for all, as we hate to see people taken advantage of, many will offer to help walk you thru a repair over your shoulder, as this is not a really difficult one to accomplish... but over the internet, it is difficult, as the time back and forth factors in, and the people assisting can't see, and coach/point out, easily what is needed.

best of luck,

 
  Cliff, give us more info where you live in the southwest area. City or town perhaps. We have area Directors and members that may live in your area. Maybe some one close that can help.


    First thing is get your bike AWAY from that Shop.  ::) ::)  They sound like a bunch of monkeys that couldn't find a banana.

  Good luck and I hope someone in your will help you find a member in your area that can direct you.

    As MOB said it could be some thing that can be fixed very easily. I never had a problem with mine in over 20 yrs of riding other than the shift linkage on the shift lever.  :great: :great:
 
it's the little flat spring in the shifter linkage that rolls the shift drum. It's broken or popped out of place. Do yourself a favor, when you fix it use the different spring used in the zx11 / zrx engines. problem solved. Steve
 
Mettler1 - I’m getting the bike tomorrow morning. I’m thinking they haven’t really touched it, but I’ll know tomorrow. I’m in Fort Collins, CO, so if someone knows a good shop for these bikes in the area let me know. I can do some wrenching, so I might tear into it myself. It’s more about having the time and space to dedicate to the job. Steve - thanks for the tip on the spring. I’ll keep it in mind depending on how this goes. I’m happy the general consensus is that it’s not a shifting fork. That sounded off to me.
 
  Good luck Cliff. Your in the right place. Lots of info and most of it good!! That's why we like our C10's

  OOOH!!  Steve In sunny Florida knows stuff. :)


            https://sites.google.com/site/shoodabenengineering/
 
  Just look on radar. Up to my butt in Mich. AGAIN in rain!! Pretty soon I have to call my place in Michigan "SNYDER SWAMP"!!
 
Experienced the same non shifting thing. It turned out to be the D. Arm Spring in Shifter 1 .pdf  MOB provided
That spring is just basically a piece of steel (technical term) bent in a U shape. Getting to it was some work, but doable.

Good luck
 
Mudhound, if you have given any thought to doing the "seventh gear mod" this would be the time to do it.

Also, as you are not experienced at getting to the area that needs to be accessed, you will have a few hours into this. And pay particular attention to that little pin on the driveshaft. Do obtain a shop or Haynes manual for guidance.

Do a forum search for seventh gear mod and/or bevel gear gasket. There could/should be a write up on what's involved with install/replace.

And do replace the bevel gear gasket with the metal one if it has not already been done.
 
SteveJ. said:
Mudhound, if you have given any thought to doing the "seventh gear mod" this would be the time to do it.

Also, as you are not experienced at getting to the area that needs to be accessed, you will have a few hours into this. And pay particular attention to that little pin on the driveshaft. Do obtain a shop or Haynes manual for guidance.

Do a forum search for seventh gear mod and/or bevel gear gasket. There could/should be a write up on what's involved with install/replace.

And do replace the bevel gear gasket with the metal one if it has not already been done.

  thanks Steve, except that I've suspended building 7th gear units until the move is complete and this place is ready for sale. Steve
 
When you click on them, it should ask you if you want to save them to your computer.

Do that and then double click and they will open up as pdf's. It works for me doing that.
 
Depending on your browser, it might not ask, but just auto saves them to your downloads folder.  That's what it did for me using google chrome.  HTH
 
I've read through the entire discourse above - and replaced the D spring, although the old one was not broken. I'm about ready to disassemble the bevel case again, and check for errors. The bike will shift through all gears while up on the center stand. But it will not shift under load, just stays in neutral.

The bike sat for years in the garage, and has never been on the road since purchased. Almost everything has been rebuilt or replaced. This is the final problem, and it's driving me nuts. The engine runs great thanks to Steve S rebuilding the carbs. Everything else is working as well. Where else should I look as a cause for this problem?
 
Stays in neutral under load, so the neutral light is on and it won't shift to first with the normal clunk? I wouldn't think that the bike would notice a difference from load when shifting to first on centerstand vs on the ground. How about getting it on centerstand get it into first, pull in the clutch and get off centerstand and see if you have power to ride off when on the ground by letting out the clutch lever.
Not to be mistaken with, that it goes into gear and slips under load?
 
I have the same question as Bob; the neutral light is on and it won't shift to first with the normal clunk.. (??)

At the National a new member thought he had clutch or shift problems. Turned out that the splines on the rear wheel drive, had worn out.
The drive shaft was turning, but the wheel wasn't being driven.

Is that a possibility on yours?

Ride safe, Ted
 
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Steve from sunny Florida called yesterday, and we discussed this situation. It is definitely the slipper clutch not engaging. The bike shifts through all gears while up on the center stand. If it is placed in first gear while up on the stand, the wheel will spin. If the clutch lever is pulled in, the wheel continues to spin. So at this time I applied the rear brake. It draws down the wheel, and if pushed too hard, will stall out the engine.

I had installed a Barnett clutch set - friction and steel plates. Steve suggests the stack may be too high, and should be reduced by using Kawasaki OEM plates. So I've got a set of used plates ordered off of Ebay - supposed to be from a low mileage '86 C10. When they get here, I'll install the set and try again. If successful (or in the unlikely event of bad plates), I'll try mixing in some Barnett plates up to the point of the clutch just barely releasing. Well, that's the plan for now.

I'll post the results after the parts are installed. If there are any other suggestions - please feel free to offer advice.
 
As you remove the plates, check the order you have them stacked in the housing. (Check that stack against the OEM plates)
May just be assembled incorrectly.

Ride safe, Ted
 
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Steve from sunny Florida called yesterday, and we discussed this situation. It is definitely the slipper clutch not engaging. The bike shifts through all gears while up on the center stand. If it is placed in first gear while up on the stand, the wheel will spin. If the clutch lever is pulled in, the wheel continues to spin. So at this time I applied the rear brake. It draws down the wheel, and if pushed too hard, will stall out the engine.
Correction - it's not that the clutch isn't engaging, it's that it's not disengaging (releasing).

Steve
 
Ok, back to the problem at hand. Replaced the clutch stack with OEM plates (both friction & steel). No change. A check of the total stack height was interesting. The Barnett stack is 45.3 mm, the OEM stack is 46 mm. Seems insignificant, but since the Barnett is lower, I'll change it back.

I went into both clutch baskets. They seemed ok, and were reinstalled. The center spline spins freely without the baskets. The oil pump gear rotates freely. It all seems normal.

So I suspect the side stand switch. It ohms out at .3 closed. Seems ok. Wiring and contacts seem ok. Next step is to trace wiring up through the junction box.
 
A stuck/bad side stand switch would kill the engine right when you let out the clutch lever when in gear, either on center stand or off.

"The bike shifts through all gears while up on the center stand. If it is placed in first gear while up on the stand, the wheel will spin. If the clutch lever is pulled in, the wheel continues to spin. So at this time I applied the rear brake. It draws down the wheel, and if pushed too hard, will stall out the engine."

So if the bike is off the centerstand and running, you try and put into 1st gear with the clutch lever pulled in, does it do the clunk and immediately dies while you are still pulling in the clutch lever? Yea it sounds like what happens on the centerstand when you apply the rear brake, you have no clutch disengagement.

How does your clutch lever feel, not too hard or soft to pull in?

Too soft, it might be a bad clutch master cylinder and not getting enough pressure to disengage the clutch.

Too hard,
Have you had the clutch slave cylinder off and inspected it.
maybe the clutch slave cylinder is gunked up and being held up when pulling in the lever.
Usually it is the opposite when gunked up and doesn't want to back out and acts more like the clutch is slipping.
Here's another idea, the clutch slave cylinder pushes against the clutch push rod, I heard that the rod can be put in either end first but one end of this tapered rod is supposed to go in first.
I will do a search and see if I can find out that info.
Here you go.
From post by MOB on the other site about proper clutch push rod assembly; "small diameter goes in first, fat end is the outer end."
 
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Just did a test on the bike. With the side stand up or down, it will go into gear while on the center stand with a clunk. And run through all the gears. But stalls out when the rear brake is applied and the clutch is pulled in.

Center stand up, side stand up - engine starts in neutral while pulling in the clutch. As I push into first gear, the bike lurches forward and stalls out.

The clutch pressure feels good. When the right side case was off, I could see the clutch moving in/out with a respectable amount of travel.

The clutch master cylinder was rebuilt. The servo has been rebuilt. I have a vacuum bleeder set and have spent a lot of time bleeding out the hydraulic line. It doesn't have the squishy feel of air in the line.

I have tried to figure which end of the rod is tapered by rolling it on a level table. Doesn't seem to favor one or the other side. One end has a punch mark, and the other is flat. The punch mark is now facing the spring plate.

I'm going to pull apart the clutch again. Perhaps the spring plate washer needs to be replaced. I'll check the clearance. The springs are all within tolerance.
 
The clutch push rod is fed in from the clutch slave side and the "small diameter goes in first, fat end is the outer end."
I tried uploading a pic but didnt work.
It looks like a poolstick with a flatter butt end against the slave cylinder and a smaller radiussed tip end on the clutch side from the photos I have seen.
 
I found a photo in another post, and it looks like the punch mark on the rod should be on the slave cylinder side.
 
I think I see 2 problems occurring.

#1 (Side stand switch is not working)
With the side stand up or down, it will go into gear while on the center stand with a clunk. And run...
The the side stand switch should cause the engine to die if you put the engine in gear with the side stand down.


#2
;A) Center stand up, side stand up - engine starts in neutral while pulling in the clutch. As I push into first gear, the bike lurches forward and stalls out.
: B) (Side stand up) stalls out when the rear brake is applied and the clutch is pulled in.
This is an indication that the clutch is not releasing. (As Steve said)
The engine should not die if you pull in the clutch (with motor running/in gear), and then apply the rear brake.
 
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Ok, back to the problem at hand. Replaced the clutch stack with OEM plates (both friction & steel). No change. A check of the total stack height was interesting. The Barnett stack is 45.3 mm, the OEM stack is 46 mm. Seems insignificant, but since the Barnett is lower, I'll change it back.

I went into both clutch baskets. They seemed ok, and were reinstalled. The center spline spins freely without the baskets. The oil pump gear rotates freely. It all seems normal.

So I suspect the side stand switch. It ohms out at .3 closed. Seems ok. Wiring and contacts seem ok. Next step is to trace wiring up through the junction box.

Go to page 5-11.
Something isn't adding up.
(I may have missed something ??)

8 Friction plates; They should be 2.9 - 3.1 mm thick. (Average is 3.0 mm)
7 steel plates; (there are 3 different thickness steel plates. {2.0, 2.3, 2,6} Standard thickness is 2.3 mm. (Page 5-13)

Fiber Plates; 8 x 3.0 mm (average) = 24.0 mm (Maximum {8 x 3.1} = 24.8)
Steel plates; 7 x 2.3 mm (standard) = 16.1 mm (Maximum {7 x 2.6} = 18.2)

Using the average thickness; Average Stack height ; 24.0 mm +16.1 mm = 40.1 mm
Using the maximum thickness; Maximum Stack height ; 24.8 mm + 18.2 mm = 43.0 mm

Your 46.0 stack height minus my 40.1 average stack height = 5.9 mm (???)
,,,,,,,,,,46.0,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,43.0 maximum,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,= 3.0 mm (???)
,,,,,,,,,,45.3,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,40.1 average,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,= 5.2 mm (???)
,,,,,,,,,,45.3,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,43.0 maximum,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,= 2.3 mm (???)

If my calculations are correct (??) It indicates that your stack height is too thick..


Perhaps; your Barnett plates are too thick? (Thickness Greater than 3.1 mm)
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, You have an extra fiber plate; (More than 8)
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, You have an extra steel plate?? (more than 7)

Do you have a manual?
(Go to page 5-10 to 5-11 Clutch assembly)
It sez;
Install a Friction plate first, then a steel, than a friction etc etc etc
Install friction plates with the tangs of the friction plates in the "A" groves of the clutch housing.
Install the last friction plate with the tangs of the friction plates in the "B" groves of the clutch housing.
 
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Since I have continuity through the side stand switch when the plunger is out (closed), I think the problem is in the Junction Box. The switch does actuate. The J box is suspect, guess I'll do a diode circuit inspection tomorrow.

Perhaps the spring plate washer will help release the clutch.
 
(as I recall) To bypass a side stand switch; you disconnect the wires from the SS switch and connect them together.
So, I think you should have continuity when the plunger is pushed in...
 
Go to page 5-11.
Something isn't adding up.
(I may have missed something ??)

8 Friction plates; They should be 2.9 - 3.1 mm thick. (Average is 3.0 mm)
7 steel plates; (there are 3 different thickness steel plates. {2.0, 2.3, 2,6} Standard thickness is 2.3 mm. (Page 5-13)

Fiber Plates; 8 x 3.0 mm (average) = 24.0 mm (Maximum 24.8)
Steel plates; 7 x 2.3 mm (standard) = 16.1 mm (Maximum 18.3)

Using the average thickness; Average Stack height ; 24.0 mm +16.1 mm = 40.1 mm
Using the maximum thickness; Maximum Stack height ; 24.8 mm + 18.3 mm = 43.1 mm

Your 46.0 stack height minus my 40.1 average stack height = 5.9 mm (???)
,,,,,,,,,,45.3,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,43.1 maximum,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,= 2.2 mm (???)

Perhaps; your Barnett plates are too thick? (Thickness Greater than 3.1 mm)
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, You have an extra fiber plate; (More than 8)
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, You have an extra steel plate?? (more than 7)

Do you have a manual?
(Go to page 5-10 to 5-11 Clutch assembly)
It sez;
Install a Friction plate first, then a steel, than a friction etc etc etc
Install friction plates with the tangs of the friction plates in the "A" groves of the clutch housing.
Install the last friction plate with the tangs of the friction plates in the "B" groves of the clutch housing.
I'm thinking my Kawasaki manual is an early copy maybe even a first edition = it's specifically dated 1986. It would be a good idea to get a new Chilton or Haynes manual. They reference thickness of the steel plates in 5-13 Clutch plate replacement, but no mention of the fiber plates.

My caliper is not the greatest quality, it's not always consistent. But the Barnett steels seem to be about 2 mm, and the fibers 3.5 mm on average. I didn't measure the OEM plates individually. The stack of the Barnett appears shorter - I'm not sure if the oil soaked fiber plates would be thicker. But I measured the each stack, not individual plates. Even so, the count is correct and they fit properly in the basket. I'll check individual plates tomorrow.
 
(as I recall) To bypass a side stand switch; you disconnect the wires from the SS switch and connect them together.
So, I think you should have continuity when the plunger is pushed in...
I pushed in the plunger and attached my leads to each wire to get my continuity reading of .3 ohms. Releasing the plunger gave an "OL" reading.
 
As I recall
Resistance pushed in should be 0.000 ohms.
Resistance extended should be Total resistance (as the switch is open / no continuity) or Over Limits
 
Pretty certain teds on the correct line of thought, your baskets too packed and cant release... the math doesnt lie. I sure hope you not using how the basket was stacked to use as an example of how to restack the plates, as it wasnt disengaging in the first place. Time to take it apart and start at square 1, with a proper fsm...

Good luck, we're rooting for u...!!

Join for the bike, stay for the people ( and their wealth of knowledge)
 
Go to page 5-11.
Something isn't adding up.
(I may have missed something ??)

8 Friction plates; They should be 2.9 - 3.1 mm thick. (Average is 3.0 mm)
7 steel plates; (there are 3 different thickness steel plates. {2.0, 2.3, 2,6} Standard thickness is 2.3 mm. (Page 5-13)

Fiber Plates; 8 x 3.0 mm (average) = 24.0 mm (Maximum {8 x 3.1} = 24.8)
Steel plates; 7 x 2.3 mm (standard) = 16.1 mm (Maximum {7 x 2.6} = 18.2)

Using the average thickness; Average Stack height ; 24.0 mm +16.1 mm = 40.1 mm
Using the maximum thickness; Maximum Stack height ; 24.8 mm + 18.2 mm = 43.0 mm

Your 46.0 stack height minus my 40.1 average stack height = 5.9 mm (???)
,,,,,,,,,,46.0,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,43.0 maximum,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,= 3.0 mm (???)
,,,,,,,,,,45.3,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,40.1 average,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,= 5.2 mm (???)
,,,,,,,,,,45.3,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,43.0 maximum,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,= 2.3 mm (???)

If my calculations are correct (??) It indicates that your stack height is too thick..


Perhaps; your Barnett plates are too thick? (Thickness Greater than 3.1 mm)
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, You have an extra fiber plate; (More than 8)
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, You have an extra steel plate?? (more than 7)

Do you have a manual?
(Go to page 5-10 to 5-11 Clutch assembly)
It sez;
Install a Friction plate first, then a steel, than a friction etc etc etc
Install friction plates with the tangs of the friction plates in the "A" groves of the clutch housing.
Install the last friction plate with the tangs of the friction plates in the "B" groves of the clutch housing.
The manual says 9 friction plates and 8 steel plates - which is what was received from Barnett and the used set of OEM plates from Ebay.
 
Sorry, but I don't have a lot of time this morning.
The info I'm posting is in a newer manual. (I have multiple manuals)

I looked at my oldest manual and can't find where it sez 9 and 8 pieces (?). (What page did you see that?)
In fact, I can't find it in the newer manual either. (??) (I reasoned that out by the instructions. (see below)
(Or perhaps the 86 had more plates in it??)

The assembly process on page 5-11 of the old manual sez,,,
Install a Friction plate first, then a steel, than a friction etc etc etc
Install 7 friction plates with the tangs of the friction plates in the "A" groves of the clutch housing.
Install the last 1 friction plate with the tangs of the friction plates in the "B" groves of the clutch housing.

NOTE: That is exactly what the New manual sez.

I suggest; remove the side cover, and see if the clutch releases when you pull in the clutch.
ie; Clutch pulled in; the clutch hub should rotate semi-freely from the clutch basket.
If you can't rotate it, the clutch is not releasing....
 
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Sorry, but your info doesn't make sense on a 1986 C10. Page 5-13 Clutch Plate Replacement specifies installing seven 2.3 mm thick steel plates one 2.6 mm steel plate and all nine friction plates in the housing temporarily for measurement purposes. The key measurement is the Spring Plate free play. Tolerance is about 0.55 - 0.85 mm for used friction plates. The adjustment is made by adding or subtracting washers until the correct tolerance is obtained. This early method does not focus on stack height.

Just for giggles this morning, I tried the 8 / 7 combination in the clutch basket. The pack was too loose, the plates moved around easily while the clutch was fully engaged. It was clear that the basket was made for a 9 / 8 combination.

The manual I'm using is First Edition : January 20, 1986. But to be fair - I'm interested in updated info and have ordered a new Clymer manual which hopefully will be received soo. It is their latest printing.

Thanks for your advice, I will try rotating the clutch hub this afternoon.
 
My Kawi manual on page 5-11;
I agree according to the manual it reads like a total of 8 friction plates, 7 plates with tangs in the "A" groove and the 8th in the "B" groove.
Lon, you have the last friction plate in a different groove then the rest of the friction plates?


On page 5-13 "Spring Plate Free Play Adjustment"
(Not the clearance check between the washer and E ring on the preceding page , btw, the newer manual has this washer to Ering clearance .05-.25mm)

"Spring Plate Free Play Adjustment"
"Useable range 0.4-1.0mm"
"If free play is not within the useable range, install the standard steel plate 2.3mm thick X 7 and 2.0 or 2.6mm thick X 1; total 8 plates"
It does not saw to remove the 7th 2.3 steel plate and replace with either a 2.0 or 2.6 to achieve the proper clearance.
So it looks like 8 Steel Plates.
If the assembly is supposed to be loaded with 8 steel and 8 friction plates. Meaning minus the 9th friction plate=-3mm, it may be worth a try loading it that way and test to see if it works?

The plates are all oiled up and not dry causing stiction?

Never changed a clutch pack so just going by what the manual is saying for plates, it could be wrong.

You'll get it going.

Just looked at my other manual, Clymer, 9 friction discs and 8 clutch plates specified.
 
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I agree. The manual is unclear.
I now think that 9 friction and 8 steel is correct.

BUT: The number of plates isn't important until we know if the clutch is functioning...

Here is a quick test.
Put the bike on the center stand.
Without cranking the bike, put it in low gear. (May have to jiggle rear wheel)
NOTE: At this point, the wheel shouldn't turn if you try to rotate it.
Now, have someone pull in the clutch "as you try to rotate the wheel".
If the clutch is working you should feel the clutch release, and you will then be able to rotate the rear wheel.
(There will be friction)

Report your findings.

Ride safe, Ted
 
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Ok, sorry to have taken so long - family stuff. But there's good news.

The spring plate free play was next to nothing, the washer was 1.6 mm. I changed this out to 1.0 mm. Then after removing the clutch basket, I discovered the oil pump sprocket wasn't engaging correctly. This time I carefully reassembled the clutch and gained some additional clearance, and also used the OEM plates (9 friction / 8 steels).

To be on the safe side, the Jbox was also rebuilt by Buck Touring.

So it seemed like a miracle yesterday - the clutch worked! The plastics were put back on the bike, and I went out for the first ever ride on this motorcycle. It was great.

Thanks to everyone for offering advice and keeping me focused. I hope to meet some you on the road in the near future.
 
Yahoooo!! Susccess!!

Ride safe, Ted

PS; Inquiring minds wanna know;
Why do you think it worked all those years with the 1.6 washer and didn't work after you rebuilt the clutch?
 
No......!!! Lon, dont even think about answer teds question.... itll drive u crazy with all the with ifs...

That so mean of u ted.....lol
 
We had the bike since September, 2010. It was in horrible shape. It was to be a Father/Son ride to California, but my son moved there before the bike was road worthy. I bought it from him to help him out, and it sat in the garage - waiting on the day I'd finally begin it's resurrection. It was never on the road, so the clutch issue came as a surprise. After retirement last August, I began to work on this bike in earnest.

A big problem was a massive oil leak that could not be explained. Oil was caked all over the bike from the carbs to the differential. Finally after working on the front bevel case, I saw a hole bored into the water pump casing. Same type of hole as used on old Goldwing water pumps. And oil was seeping from the hole. Time to replace the water pump. The previous owner ignored the problem and just added oil when it got too low. So the oil just spewed out from there. Also the breather tube was not in the airbox - another source of crud buildup.

The swing arm was a corroded mess and I had it sand blasted and powder coated, along with the brake stay. Rebuilt the brakes, replaced the rotors, rebuilt the clutch master cylinder, slave cylinder, new tires, refinished the wheels, etc. There was antifreeze that leaked into the no. 1 cylinder well, but not the head. Replaced the valve cover gasket, set the valves, replaced the thermal switches, etc.

So in summary, I rebuilt the bike over the winter pretty much from the ground up. When Steve sent me the carbs I was excited. The carbs were installed, and I was ready to ride. But to my horror - the bike would start, then not shift into gear. It just died. Hence the above tale of woe, then elation.

I've no idea of why it may (or may not) have worked with a 1.6 mm washer. It could have been an issue that we weren't aware of. Maybe the previous owner replaced the washer to adjust for plate wear. Idk. The old friction plates were pitched when I got the Barnett plates. The old plates were stuck together from sitting for years and had to be pried apart. Just assumed the Barnett plates would work just the same way they always worked on several other bikes I've owned over the years. This slipper clutch was new to me, as well as the precision of the spring plate clearance. The OEM plates I've got now are from Ebay, off of a low mileage '86 Concours. The Kawasaki manual recommends the 1.0 mm spacer for new plates and gives the recommended specs for the steels, which I did my best to follow.

I may have screwed up on the clutch rebuild initially with not installing the oil pump gear properly. But persistence pays off.

All of that aside - it really doesn't matter. I rode the bike yesterday for about 4 hours. Everything works. It's running strong, and it seems tight. So hopefully nothing else will surface, and remain that way.
 
Looking at the manual, are you certain that you (originally) installed the Bevel gear correctly (bevel to the engine)?
If it were backwards, it could have effected the stack height..

The finding that you not did install the oil pump gear properly may be your biggest saving.
Imagine what could have happened if the engine was oiling on along trip..

Ride safe, Ted

PS: (Konehead) I are not mean... I just have an inquiring mind.. (sorta)
 
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I know ted, its the ENGINE-EER in u.... and i tease you, cuz , well, i respect you.... and im certain there a bunch more out there that feel the same way...
 
Just a thought - hadn't considered before. There's a gasket under the clutch slave cylinder. at least there's supposed to be one. it is a couple mm thick. I wonder if it's not there - was never there - and maybe that's why the extra washer is working.
 
It's there Steve. I swapped out the washers in the pressure plate. Near as I can tell, it's all back together as it should be. The bike rides great. I'm going out this morning for a couple of hours - the weather is 70's going to 80 with sunshine. Nowhere to go in particular, and nothing going on today. I love retirement!
 
We're just trying to understand why it wasn't working previously.
As long as it's working, your good to go. Enjoy your ride!

Ride safe, Ted
 
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