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Observations After The Second Valve Check

4bikes

COG#9715 AAD
Member
There is a lot of speculation about the C-14 valve adjustments, and how the valves seat and specs change with mileage. If we all try to post up results, we can hopefully gain some real insight into the behavior of the valve train. I'll share my experiences comapring the first early valve check/adjustment at 13,787 Miles and the second check at 39,984.

As you can see from the two shim maps I posted below, the first check at the early interval had two exhaust valves and four intake valves out of spec and tight. 9 other valves were on the tight end of the spec. I ended up changing or swapping 15 of the 16 shims to center all of the valves at .006 for the intakes and .009 for the exhausts.

The second valve check after running for 26,000 miles, showed that every exhaust valve did not change in clearance. Four of the intake valves actually loosened up nearly .001. It's possible that every intake valve did not change very much since I kept them on the loose side of the centered spec, but not all the way to .007. The fact that some valves could potentially loosen, gives credence to the centering them and not putting them all on the loose end.

So what is going on here? If I had to speculate based on these actual results, I would conclude that either the valves seat early and go out of spec and move tight, and/or, the factory sends out engines with some of the valves on the tight end of the spec, and they move out of spec early as they seat. I'm pretty confident with the results that I'm measuring since that feeler guage either fits or doesn't fit. So not really any guess work there.

A few notes after doing the procedure the second time:
-Definitely remove the radiator. It makes the job much easier and you can tighten the header bolts with ease. You can actually check the exhaust valves from the front side of the engine because there is so much room. The other benefit of removing the radiator is that you get a lot of extra dirty coolant out of the system that's trapped in the radiator and the vacuous hoses. The best bonus is that you can get in an really clean the radiator. Mine was really gummed up, and it was covered with a radiator guard.

-Even if you check the valves, and they are in spec, you are not wasting your time. I addressed the potential for oil leaks, and changed the spark plugs. Like others have reported, the plugs looked fine after 40,000 miles and still had a Gap of 0.35 IN. I replaced them anyway because I was already in there. The spark plug wrench sold by Kawi has to be the cheapest most effective tool you will ever use. It works perfectly in that tight space. I included the part number for that tool in the link below since it's not included in the Gen 2 tool kits.

-The second time around is easier because you have the shim map. If I would have had to pull the cams, the job would have taken half the time because that first shim measuring step is eliminated.

-I'm still impressed that my bike doesn't have the dreaded front left top end and cam sensor oil leaks. To hedge my bets, I did replace the valve cover bolt rubber washers, used a new gasket, new spark plug well gaskets and MOB's improved cam sensor o-ring. Watch me get an leak since I fixed something that wasn't broken? The old gasket was distressed in some places, so I'm glad I changed it.

-While I was in there, I flushed and changed the coolant, and bled just the clutch again (just did it this past spring) since the reservoir was gritty. I took my time since I'm not a dealer trying to make $$ and cleaned up everything in the inside the panels and replaced some bolts, a bunch of push rivets, and plastic washers.

-Also, after 40,000 miles it was time to replace the fuel filter. Note that this is not a serviceable item, but Fred's Concourior article and instructions below provide every step you need to change it. As you can see, it was REALLY dirty and worth the effort.
Fuel filter links:
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=17490.0;topicseen
http://www.pbase.com/fredharmon/c14fuelpump


fuelpump.jpg
fuelfilter.jpg

The second time around is so much easier. I still used Fred's videos at times, but relied more on the service manual for the torque specs.

It would be great to hear about other valve check experiences, or speculate some more about how the valve train actually wears. In case anyone is wondering about how I ride, or how that factors in, I ride in a spirited manner but don’t bounce off the Rev Limiter or wind it out above 8K very often. I would say I'm more on the touring side of the Sport Touring scale. Probably an average C-14 rider I'm guessing?

Here is a link to the Part numbers and tools needed for the job:

Here is a link to the first time I did the job, and needed to change out the shims:
Shim Map from Check/Adjustment at 13,787 miles
Shim Map.jpg

Shim Map from second check at 39,787 Miles
Shim Map Check 2.jpg

Hopefully this info helps someone else. I really appreciated all of the posts from others showing these service procedures.
 
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Thanks.  At least 1000 gallons of gas went through that small filter, so it was time to change it.  The tank also had some ribbon like plastic shavings that came out when I rinsed it out with gas, and emptied it out of the fuel pump hole.  No rust to be found in the tank. It's interesting that the fuel filter is not serviceable, and new pump assembly with a clean filter costs at least $350.00.
 
4Bikes, you have no idea how much you're helping :great: :beerchug:

Now, because I am way on the "rookie" side of these things :-[ would you happen to have any pics of the shims and what they look like...I'm curious to see what I will be finding in there once I begin the process!

and, again, thank you for posting all the information you have posted thus far...I REALLY appreciate it!
 
Mike said:
4Bikes, you have no idea how much you're helping :great: :beerchug:

Now, because I am way on the "rookie" side of these things :-[ would you happen to have any pics of the shims and what they look like...I'm curious to see what I will be finding in there once I begin the process!

and, again, thank you for posting all the information you have posted thus far...I REALLY appreciate it!
Thanks, I’ll see about posting some more photos.  Just so you know, I’m on the rookie side of things too.  My day job is being a Network Systems Administrator that has a hobby of riding and wrenching on my motorcycle.  There are others on the forum that are experts that I learn from.  Being inexperienced, I need to figure things out, and while I do that, I’ll share some information back for others in the same situation. 

That said, while being an amateur, I’m convinced that for jobs like periodic and routine maintenance that includes the valve adjustment, I can do a better job than the dealer because I have the time, will look things up, and be careful and care about what I do.  Not to mention, I’ll be confident it was done right and save some serious $$.  Let’s face it, nobody cares more about your motorcycle than you do.
 
4Bikes said:
Mike said:
4Bikes, you have no idea how much you're helping :great: :beerchug:

Now, because I am way on the "rookie" side of these things :-[ would you happen to have any pics of the shims and what they look like...I'm curious to see what I will be finding in there once I begin the process!

and, again, thank you for posting all the information you have posted thus far...I REALLY appreciate it!
Thanks, I’ll see about posting some more photos.  Just so you know, I’m on the rookie side of things too.  My day job is being a Network Systems Administrator that has a hobby of riding and wrenching on my motorcycle.  There are others on the forum that are experts that I learn from.  Being inexperienced, I need to figure things out, and while I do that, I’ll share some information back for others in the same situation. 

That said, while being an amateur, I’m convinced that for jobs like periodic and routine maintenance that includes the valve adjustment, I can do a better job than the dealer because I have the time, will look things up, and be careful and care about what I do.  Not to mention, I’ll be confident it was done right and save some serious $$.  Let’s face it, nobody cares more about your motorcycle than you do.

The major service is the one thing I haven't done on my own (oh, and tires) but am anxious and somewhat intimidated but wanting to do it! The shop I use charges $1100 to do the service...$975 if the valves are in spec. I haven't had to pay the $1100 because they claim the valves have been "in spec" both services done by them. It'll be interesting to see just how "in spec" they are when I get in there!

That being said, I've had the plastic off many times so getting her "stripped down" is pretty easy to do. It's getting deeper into it that becomes totally foreign to me. I am blessed with the ability to figure things out pretty fast once I see them but have a really hard time understanding things when just reading about them. I need visuals...you know, coloring books or anything that can show me what's being talked about :-[. I have a difficult time trying to picture something in my head before I've ever seen it. I love how people try to explain something and they wave their hands all over the pace while talking like that's supposed to help me understand what the HECK they're trying to explain  :truce:

I'm an "everyday" rider and put a lot of miles on my bike so learning to do the services will save me too! I look forward to getting in there and seeing what's what! Again, thank you for the info you've posted...it really does help!

 
If you need visuals, then my suggestion is Fred's maintenance videos.  He walks you though all of the major service items in great detail. 
 
4Bikes said:
If you need visuals, then my suggestion is Fred's maintenance videos.  He walks you though all of the major service items in great detail.

Got em...just haven't looked yet
 
Mike - think of a very small battery similar to that used for a hearing aid.  Basically, shims are very small (pinky-finger tip) metal disks for varying thicknesses.
They fit into the top of the valves and under the bucket that comes in contact with the cam-lobe.
By varying the thickness of the shim, you thus adjust the gap between the bucket and the cam lobe.

4Bikes - I am also in IT (for 41 years now - OMD I'm old).  I look forward to learning more about the fuel filter while I still have most of the plastics off.
 
notsluggo said:
Mike - think of a very small battery similar to that used for a hearing aid.  Basically, shims are very small (pinky-finger tip) metal disks for varying thicknesses.
They fit into the top of the valves and under the bucket that comes in contact with the cam-lobe.
By varying the thickness of the shim, you thus adjust the gap between the bucket and the cam lobe.

4Bikes - I am also in IT (for 41 years now - OMD I'm old).  I look forward to learning more about the fuel filter while I still have most of the plastics off.

Thanks...I can picture that!

I know it's on here somewhere but where are you guys getting the shims, local shops?

Also, are you finding it better to order AFTER you check or are you buying a range beforehand?
 
You won't know what you need until you've A) measured the gaps and determined them to be correct or not; and B) pulled each shim (one at a time) to see what is in place.  There is a great spreadsheet floating around on here that makes the measuring / replacing pretty simple.
As soon as I can remember where I ordered mine.....I'll let you know.
 
notsluggo said:
You won't know what you need until you've A) measured the gaps and determined them to be correct or not; and B) pulled each shim (one at a time) to see what is in place.  There is a great spreadsheet floating around on here that makes the measuring / replacing pretty simple.
As soon as I can remember where I ordered mine.....I'll let you know.

Yeah, saw the sheet too. I'm just throwing ALL questions into the wind and seeing what sticks! I want to try to get as much info as I can going into this in hopes of avoiding as many "mishaps" as possible!
 
Considering I'm currently in the throes of reassembly - I cannot stress enough the importance of taking a large number of digital pictures before and as you disassemble the bodywork, sub-frame, frame, and move wiring about. These will be worth their weight in gold when reassembly time comes.  DAMHIK  :mad:
 
notsluggo said:
Considering I'm currently in the throes of reassembly - I cannot stress enough the importance of taking a large number of digital pictures before and as you disassemble the bodywork, sub-frame, frame, and move wiring about. These will be worth their weight in gold when reassembly time comes.  DAMHIK  :mad:

Haha....already planned on doing that!
 
Good write up 4Bikes! Your chart was awesome. I scrubbed it and will use it as a template unless you have a fresh one you can post. I am posting my scrubbed one for others. (Please forgive my rudimentary computer skills.)
 

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You can clean the fuel filter, take everything apart like you going to replace it & instead clean it real good & put it all back together. I did this 11,000 miles ago  :beerchug:
 
Anybody have a shim map template in Excel? The PDF version was nice, as was the Jpg version...but an Excel version would be really great.
 
Steven,

When you measured the clearances how accurate did you try to be?  Did you measure to the .001 inch? or the .0005 inch? This will give you a much better indication of movement in short mileage.
Matt
 
CW said:
Anybody have a shim map template in Excel? The PDF version was nice, as was the Jpg version...but an Excel version would be really great.

I've attached the Excel file these guys have been using.

HTH,
Robert
 

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mattchewn said:
Steven,

When you measured the clearances how accurate did you try to be?  Did you measure to the .001 inch? or the .0005 inch? This will give you a much better indication of movement in short mileage.
Matt
Matt,
I measured in .001 increments and used the Kawasaki 1/2 shim sizes to get that level of precision. So for instance if I measured a.006 valve, the .007 would not fit, so I called it .006. That Excel spreadsheet is more precise than the feeler gauges and shims will allow.
 
Picture, you want a picture of shims?



On the right is a C14 shim. On the left is a Vmax shim. I'll let you guess what's in the center  :)
 
This photo will help to explain the front left valve cover oil leak. It shows the left front of the engine with the valve cover gasket removed. There is a puddle of oil that sits below the cam lobe on cylinder #1. The bike is on the center stand, but you can imagine that if it was on the side stand, that puddle would be covering the gasket and looking for an escape route. As a feature request, future engines should have a drain hole in that corner. The cam lobe splashing that puddle at high RPM can't help much either.

Oilpuddle.jpg
 
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4Bikes said:
This photo will help to explain the front left valve cover oil leak.  It shows the left front of the engine with the valve cover gasket removed.  There is a puddle of oil that sits below the cam lobe on cylinder #1.  The bike is on the center stand, but you can imagine that if it was on the side stand, that puddle would be covering the gasket and looking for an escape route.  As a feature request, future engines should have a drain hole in that corner.  The cam lobe splashing that puddle at high RPM can't help much either. 

oilpuddle.jpg

4Bikes, this might be a really dumb question but isn't that oil there for lubrication? I know that oil is sprayed or injected into that area for lube but because I've NEVER opened one up I may talking out of my ars here :??:!
 
That oil is for lubrication, but it also needs to stay inside the engine. ;D  A small hole would allow that oil to drain down and help the oil to not seep through the gasket. Other areas of top end don't have that puddle. 
 
Steven,
I use feelers to get to the .0005 range. Then I know much closer tolerances and can see finer movement amounts.
Use a .0015 on top of a standard .004 or 5 or 6. This will get you finer adjustment numbers.
Matt
 
I know you know all this stuff Matt. It would have been interesting to measure the clearances down to .0005, but I'm thinking the adjustments are not able to go down to that level due to the limitations of the shims.  The Kawasaki and Honda shims are found in the half sizes, which are the best you can do.  The HotCams and some other kits only give the full sizes, which would make it harder to be precise.  There is some subjectivity you can use, for instance a .006 that sides in pretty easy but a .007 does not fit, could really be a.00065?  In the end I don't it matters because the shim size won't let you get down to .0005. 
 
4Bikes said:
I know you know all this stuff Matt. It would have been interesting to measure the clearances down to .0005, but I'm thinking the adjustments are not able to go down to that level due to the limitations of the shims.  The Kawasaki and Honda shims are found in the half sizes, which are the best you can do.  The HotCams and some other kits only give the full sizes, which would make it harder to be precise.  There is some subjectivity you can use, for instance a .006 that sides in pretty easy but a .007 does not fit, could really be a.00065?  In the end I don't it matters because the shim size won't let you get down to .0005.

fwiw
I do it the same way as Matt, because I don't use HotCam shims, I purchased indvidual feeler stock from McMaster Carr, in 1 foot lengths, and use the same systme of stacking either a .0005 or a .0015 strip in the stackup, to get my readings. Seeing as the total variance specified in the adjustment range is a mere .002" I find it wise to measure to the .0005" increments, which do effectively let you pick an OEM (Kaw or Honda) shim size, when you measure those shims with a micrometer (not dial calipers...) you will find that fourth decimal place makes a difference... I also mic the heads of the buckets when measuring, which gives you a lot more adjustability in swaping those around also, to get the max reading desired to add longevity to your intervals.

take note of the fourth place decimal readings in my chart, also note some of the shim dimensions that vary even tho they are marked with the same numbers, also note what was accomplished with measuring the head of the buckets, allowing some of those to be swapped and the final outcome in final clearances....
 
MOB,
Can you add your wisdom or speculate on why my clearances did not change in 26,000 miles?  I was really surprised since I assumed at least some valves would tighten by at least one shim size.

Also, it appears that the service manual does not use the word buckets.  It uses the term lifters.  If that is the case, they do have this note:

The Service Manual Section 2-26
Mark and record the locations of the valve lifters and shims so that they can be reinstalled in their original positions
.


I'm not arguing the merits of swapping the buckets, but the service manual does not support that?


 
Hi,
        Wow!

Maybe I've said this before, but.... :-[

Being an old Diesel Mechanic, working on engines that would have a hard time fitting into a 2 story house. :eek:

I would have to say you guys doing these C14 valve adjusts, are leaving the Mechanics/Science Realm. ..

And entering into a Pure Art Form kind of thing now!!! ;D

Quite impressive work,  on a VERY sophisticated engine! :great:
 

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Steven,
I am unaware of any manufacturer's manual that supports moving any "wear-in" part like a lifter or pushrod or rocker arm from its' original location. In the earlier days of engines this was a much bigger concern since the hardening processes as well as the metals were no where near what they are just 20 years later. The levels of harness and wearability/durability of these newer parts is unreal. I would have no real worries about swapping buckets as MOB has done due to the current level of manufacturing standards. I have not had to do one like that yet as I have a huge supply of shim sizes available to me within a 25 min drive.
Necessity is the mother of invention right?

Matt
 
Thanks Matt. Has anyone else done a second or third valve check?  I'm curious to see how subsequent checks work out. My result is just one data point, but it seems to indicate the valves settle in and the wearing surfaces of the cams and lifters offsets the wear in the valve seats.
 
Steven,
I don't personally think that it is wear on the other parts that slows the migration. I believe the initial one or even two checks are the valves settling into the seats as well as the valve seats settling into the head. The amount of wear on the cam and followers is insignificant to the movement. The harder you ride them initially the faster they will settle in. I had all my valves tight at 15K and by 20K with a lot of high RPM running on a track they actually moved back toward center. I will be going in again at 25K for a recheck.
Matt
 
mattchewn said:
Steven,
I don't personally think that it is wear on the other parts that slows the migration. I believe the initial one or even two checks are the valves settling into the seats as well as the valve seats settling into the head. The amount of wear on the cam and followers is insignificant to the movement. The harder you ride them initially the faster they will settle in. I had all my valves tight at 15K and by 20K with a lot of high RPM running on a track they actually moved back toward center. I will be going in again at 25K for a recheck.
Matt

Matt, I'm confused here....did they loosen or am I reading this wrong?
 
mattchewn said:
g,
They did loosen after extended high RPM running.
Matt

Hi,
        I wonder if this is why you find used bikes for sale working fine at 80,000 miles and never had a valve check? :eek:

Not sayin we should do that, but a BMW K1300 GT comes to mind, that I walked away from, (no recorded valve checks!)  when looking for my present bike! :-[

I guess to run a bike to that mileage with no valve check, would be like playing the Lotto! ;D
 

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4Bikes said:
MOB,
Can you add your wisdom or speculate on why my clearances did not change in 26,000 miles?  I was really surprised since I assumed at least some valves would tighten by at least one shim size.

Also, it appears that the service manual does not use the word buckets.  It uses the term lifters.  If that is the case, they do have this note:

The Service Manual Section 2-26
Mark and record the locations of the valve lifters and shims so that they can be reinstalled in their original positions
.


I'm not arguing the merits of swapping the buckets, but the service manual does not support that?

the "lifters" or buckets as I call them, are not a tight fit into their respective bores, ( if you look at those bores, you will note they are not a ground diameter, but just a normal machine bored recess, prolly with a +/- .005" tolerance, and always clearance) there is adequate clearance on their outside diameter to allow swapping. Kaw does not mention this, as it starts to "confuse people with too much to measure" during the adjust process, they simply say to keep them together when removing them, so its easier to calculate new shims based solely on the stamping of the size shim in place, by its thickness... note they don't even tell you to measure the shims you remove either, which we do to insure correct data compilation.

as for wear in this area, if you looked at those buckets, and the corrosponding cam surface, you would see zero wear, absolutly no visible marks showing a wear pattern, this is the result of the modern metalurgy and hardness, and finish, that Matt noted.

if you look closely at my shim map, and note the differences in the head thickness' for those buckets, you will see my discovery that the heads vary in thickness almos equal to the complete clearance range, so swapping them does offer great benefits when trying to eek out that odd .0005-.0007" that allows a max setting.
 
4Bikes said:
MOB,
Can you add your wisdom or speculate on why my clearances did not change in 26,000 miles?  SNIP ....

My theory is the clearances weren't set closely in the first place at the factory and never changed much before the first check.  Otherwise, why wouldn't some valves change and not the others,  between the first & second clearance check ?
 
I cant disagree with that.  There is also the school that says they seat early and mileage has less to do with them going out of tolerance due to wear.  That is one of the reasons why I checked mine early and like to say, if you don't check your clearances, you have no idea if any valves are out of spec. 
 
I sort of agree, but as time goes by, and we change our style of riding (sometimes greatly change it) oddities appear.. like, now I ride pretty sane, in the beginning, not so much, and in between, really had a lots of hours, loaded for tour, with 2 people aboard, and as of late, even pulling a trailer... not to mention differences in fuel, and roads, between my tart point in Va. and my current point in Ohio. My initial inspect, @approx 15k, told me to button it up, and ride, but when I did it again less than 10k later, I did do MAJOR adjustments... and all my inspection both times, was done "stacking" .0005" feelers in the stack, and measuring 4 decimal places all the time.
now I'm coming up to the 3rd time, and am curious myself.. to see the cumulative effects. As I did set everything to the high end, I'm hoping all settled in nice, and if I have to change a couple shims, or not, all good... I really don't expect to see a many changes as I did before, but can deal with a wear pattern and use it a a future barometer.  But then again, we never know until we inspect.
 
Thanks TC-14.  I'm also a bit selfish, because I need to take the time to research this stuff and learn, since I'm technically not a mechanic.  Like woodworking, I enjoy working on my Motorcycle but wouldn't want to do it for a living.  So what you are seeing is a documentation of the stuff I found and the work I did successfully so I have a chance of repeating the process a few years later.  I'm happy to share with others on this forum since most of the information you see was discovered here through a group contribution.  Fred Harmon's videos are also VERY helpful, so his contribution cannot be underestimated. 
 
Mother Kawasaki should give us a "Valve Clearance Sheet" when the engine is assembled.  I got a sheet of paper from Kawasaki stating my engine has 197HP.  Give me another showing valve clearance set from Factory. :)
 
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