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Potential New Owner - Recommendation

IKnowYouRider

IKnowYouRider

Guest
Guest
Hi All,

I currently own a Kawasaki z900rs but have been dreaming of something as fast but more comfortable which has lead me to consider the Concours.

I have been reading this Forum and have found some great information.

I am looking at two 2021 models. One is brand new for 14999. The second is used with 1300 miles with a price of 13698.
The used one appears to have an aftermarket full exhaust. Supposedly has Ivan’s flash as well. From the picture it looks like black widow .

Can anyone confirm?
Any concerns with the handling of the concours? I am leaning towards the pre-owned one. Would you go with the used or brand new?

3281BCAE-2871-4B87-AD68-B07A26E2218C.jpg
 
I can't comment on the comfort of the rs vs. C14. I like the value and comfort of a 3 yr. factory warranty.
 
What's the sound like on the aftermarket setup?

I like my drag bikes and their exhausts at the drag strip. I DO NOT like that level of noise day in/day out on a cross country trip.

YMMV.
 
Not sure, I plan on checking it out in person this weekend. Hoping someone here with similar exhaust can chime in on that. I have a full akrapovic system on my Z and ride with ear plugs. I’m hoping it sounds good rather than obnoxious
 
I bought a used 16 with 1013 miles on it, never had a problem yet and if i had financed it i figured i saved about $6k, bought it,rode it home and payed it off the next week.if that bike has stock tires the first thing to do is change them, you wont be sorry.
 
I only have the BW slipon and can confirm that leaving the baffle out feels MUCH better than with it installed. It's loud but not like straight pipes. I always use earplugs (or my Shure 215s) anyway. All I can say is the weight savings and open breathing, combined with the MRP, transforms this machine from a decent bike to a VERY COOL (and very comfortable) sport touring monster.
 
While both bikes are good values, I'd have to ask myself why someone would add those upgrades and then trade in a new bike with only 1300 miles on it. Mechanical gremlins or it just didn't suit the original owner?

Many on this board (including me) have had good experiences buying low mileage used bikes. I still prefer buying new and doing my own upgrades.

Take it for a test ride before buying.
 
Personally I was at the same cross-roads when I bought my new '21 in the last week of March this year. I had the choice of a '20 with about 1,800 miles (it was silver with a bit of green and black) or a new still-in-the-crate '21. I was able to ride the '20, and I liked it just fine. It was tight like a new bike at that low mileage.
231339EA-B126-4DFA-8B20-426A0A13A74D.jpeg

Then I went home and thought about what Rich brought up. Why would someone trade in (or divest) of a new bike like this? But I went deeper. What kind of maintenance did the previous owner perform at 600, if at all. How hard did he ride it during break-in? Why was the dealer being cagey about the machine, and want to try forcing me to buy used versus new? Why wouldn't they answer my questions about depreciation and the bike already being 12 months since it was first purchased?

It became clear to me that my only real option was the new machine. Zero interest for the first year (I'll have it paid off by March next year), and no questions about who did the maintenance and when. I did the work myself, at the appropriate intervals. I rode it like a newborn until I got to 1k miles, and even then only took it to 5k RPMs until I was past 1,500 miles.
5F4CF393-E790-4942-B662-67A8758900DA.jpeg

I may have spent a few dollars more now, but I can rest easy knowing that it's gonna last me until I can't ride anymore. I also got the extra 3 yr warranty for $390, which means I'm covered until 2027 for any warranty claims.
E6ADD3F4-57A0-40DC-AB1D-92F06B7D92A7.jpeg

Buying new eliminates all the questions, especially at the price point we're talking about.
My Big Girl 2021 C14 - profile.jpg
 
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I agree, buying new eliminates any risk. But, I can't imagine anyone buying a ~15k bike and really trashing it during break-in. Everyone loves their bike up to the point when they decide to move to another. I can think of many reasons someone would trade for another. Its kind of part of the process.

Although I probably would be saving a good amount going with the pre-owned, what bothers me is those mods are not my own. And I want to start with the true base before deciding on making my own modifications. Personalizing a bike is another part of the process that I would potentially be missing out on. Or perhaps not missing out on but making a decision based on that would be silly. I'm going new and everything is locked. I just need to go and sign the papers at this point.

I am super excited to get on my bike. I know a lot of people in the North East, I am located in SE PA, store their bike for the winter. But I enjoy riding in the cold weather. As long as there is no snow on the ground I like to ride. Helps avoid the bad gas or dead battery issues.
 
briev802740 said:
I agree, buying new eliminates any risk. But, I can't imagine anyone buying a ~15k bike and really trashing it during break-in. Everyone loves their bike up to the point when they decide to move to another. I can think of many reasons someone would trade for another. Its kind of part of the process.

Although I probably would be saving a good amount going with the pre-owned, what bothers me is those mods are not my own. And I want to start with the true base before deciding on making my own modifications. Personalizing a bike is another part of the process that I would potentially be missing out on. Or perhaps not missing out on but making a decision based on that would be silly. I'm going new and everything is locked. I just need to go and sign the papers at this point.

I am super excited to get on my bike. I know a lot of people in the North East, I am located in SE PA, store their bike for the winter. But I enjoy riding in the cold weather. As long as there is no snow on the ground I like to ride. Helps avoid the bad gas or dead battery issues.
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You are in SE PA? Let’s burn rubber!

Ohhhhk we can go easy for break-in then some new rubber and go time!

Wayne, Carol & Blue
 
2andblue said:
Wyncote, PA - zip past your area on way to mtns ALL the time. Will PM - hope to see a new machine on our wing soon!

Wayne, Carol & Blue
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Nice! I am originally from Norristown, moved to Pottstown, and now in Morgantown. I apparently keep moving more west the older I get.
 
briev802740 said:
Nice! I am originally from Norristown, moved to Pottstown, and now in Morgantown. I apparently keep moving more west the older I get.
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Hey! I'm in Royersford, not too far away. I run a motorcycle Meetup called Montco Riders, check us out.

If it's any help I just bought my "new" 2020 C14 a few months ago from a dealer in Dover, DE. I managed to talk them down to 14k out the door so you may have some negotiation room.
 
Thanks everyone, I ended up shopping local and picked up my new bike today. She had 0 miles on her. I always follow the manual for break-in so will be a bit before I can see what business she means. But the ride I had around the local roads today have been very enjoyable.

Bike seems very smooth, although I get a little buzz near my crotch area occasionally ( not complaining lol) . I am really impressed with the wind protection. Its in the low 60s today and my ride to the dealer on my z had my legs cold. The ride home on the connie I felt no coldness on my legs. The grip heaters were way too hot on High setting that I needed to put it to Low. Windshield works well, although when im looking forward it doesn't seem like it covers me. I am looking over the windshield. However, the wind protection its providing is working and moving the air above my head.

I was really surprised with how nimble she is. Coming from a z900rs, which can really lean into curves at speeds, I felt more planted and confident in turns and she really likes to lean. Absolutely no issues with weight. I have owned an electra glide in the past, which is one bike I put the most miles on due to how comfortable it is, and this bike is super light in comparison.

I am not flat footed on the bike. I am 5' 10'' with a 30in inseam. I am basically 75% flat footed but my heels are in the air. I don't think its going to be a problem for me. In comparison, the stock seat on the Z900rs put me basically in the same height. I had the low seat installed which lowered me enough to flat foot. Again, I don't think its a problem.

I am absolutely loving the luggage and key system. This is such a premium bike and yet still feels old school with the tech on it. I was slightly debating on this or the versys 1000 as they seem to have put all of the fancy tech on that bike for touring and its definitely a comfortable bike. But I was not impressed with its power like I am with the Connie. I want fast and comfortable and that is what this bike is delivering.

I say this every time I buy a new bike and I always end up being a liar... but I do not plan any modifications... at least not any time soon.
I said the same thing about my Z and ended up doing everything you can possibly do to her and got her to maximum performance. But, one difference between the two, I had immediate issues with the Z from the beginning that I started modded immediately for. I knew that from the first ride home. With the Connie, I do not feel any immediate impulse to change anything. She is such a great bike.

Thanks again for the feedback. @KiowaEagle I will sign up for Montco riders and Chester counter riders on meetup. @2andblue looking forward to a ride with you some day too!


IXvhiCS.jpeg
 
briev802740 said:
Thanks everyone, I ended up shopping local and picked up my new bike today. She had 0 miles on her. I always follow the manual for break-in so will be a bit before I can see what business she means. But the ride I had around the local roads today have been very enjoyable.

Bike seems very smooth, although I get a little buzz near my crotch area occasionally ( not complaining lol) . I am really impressed with the wind protection. Its in the low 60s today and my ride to the dealer on my z had my legs cold. The ride home on the connie I felt no coldness on my legs. The grip heaters were way too hot on High setting that I needed to put it to Low. Windshield works well, although when im looking forward it doesn't seem like it covers me. I am looking over the windshield. However, the wind protection its providing is working and moving the air above my head.

I was really surprised with how nimble she is. Coming from a z900rs, which can really lean into curves at speeds, I felt more planted and confident in turns and she really likes to lean. Absolutely no issues with weight. I have owned an electra glide in the past, which is one bike I put the most miles on due to how comfortable it is, and this bike is super light in comparison.

I am not flat footed on the bike. I am 5' 10'' with a 30in inseam. I am basically 75% flat footed but my heels are in the air. I don't think its going to be a problem for me. In comparison, the stock seat on the Z900rs put me basically in the same height. I had the low seat installed which lowered me enough to flat foot. Again, I don't think its a problem.

I am absolutely loving the luggage and key system. This is such a premium bike and yet still feels old school with the tech on it. I was slightly debating on this or the versys 1000 as they seem to have put all of the fancy tech on that bike for touring and its definitely a comfortable bike. But I was not impressed with its power like I am with the Connie. I want fast and comfortable and that is what this bike is delivering.

I say this every time I buy a new bike and I always end up being a liar... but I do not plan any modifications... at least not any time soon.
I said the same thing about my Z and ended up doing everything you can possibly do to her and got her to maximum performance. But, one difference between the two, I had immediate issues with the Z from the beginning that I started modded immediately for. I knew that from the first ride home. With the Connie, I do not feel any immediate impulse to change anything. She is such a great bike.

Thanks again for the feedback. @KiowaEagle I will sign up for Montco riders and Chester counter riders on meetup. @2andblue looking forward to a ride with you some day too!


IXvhiCS.jpeg
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Flash it , you wont be sorry.
 
FTB530 said:
Flash it , you wont be sorry.
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That was one thing I didn't do on my Z... I feel that the O2 sensors play and important role in the amount of fueling provided on the bike. I like that technology and it makes sense to me. Based on different altitudes and temperature I feel that a bike should be able to adjust its fueling. Which is why on my Z I chose a rapid bike module over a a flash.

But maybe I am not understanding correctly and can be educated more...
 
Gorgeous bike! I sure do like that green pinstripe on these bikes. I think you made a good choice buying new for a few bucks more, as mentioned you get to break it in and maintain it the way you want from day one, instead of relying on a service history that may be nonexistent or incomplete.

I tend to keep slightly better service records on the bike I bought brand new vs. 10+ year old bikes that I've purchased with 10-20K miles on them, because I really have no idea how the PO maintained it.

Enjoy getting to know her!
 
fastenova8707 said:
Gorgeous bike! I sure do like that green pinstripe on these bikes. I think you made a good choice buying new for a few bucks more, as mentioned you get to break it in and maintain it the way you want from day one, instead of relying on a service history that may be nonexistent or incomplete.

I tend to keep slightly better service records on the bike I bought brand new vs. 10+ year old bikes that I've purchased with 10-20K miles on them, because I really have no idea how the PO maintained it.

Enjoy getting to know her!
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I have to admit I am a little disapointed with the 'pin stripe'. I thought it was paint but its actually a sticker :😰
 
Awesome 👏 !!! Glad you are a full-fledged owner now do the full-fledged member thing.

We will help you spend your $ on the things you need (Flash-you must) and don’t need but ohhh can be so fun!!!

Let’s hook up soon, broke-in or not.

Wayne, Carol & Blue
 
You know what's funny, after watching basically every video and reading a ton of forum posts. I am most entertained by the 'flash wars' between Steve and Ivan. 🍿
 
briev802740 said:
I have to admit I am a little disapointed with the 'pin stripe'. I thought it was paint but its actually a sticker :😰
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I had no idea! I haven't actually seen one up close yet, I had assumed it was painted. I guess on the upside, it makes it really easy for people to remove them if they prefer it all black... :unsure:
 
Ha ha. "I always end up being a liar... but I do not plan any modifications..." We need a pool to see how long it takes.....over/under.

It is futile to resist. Just figure it out as to priorities.
 
briev802740 said:
That was one thing I didn't do on my Z... I feel that the O2 sensors play and important role in the amount of fueling provided on the bike. I like that technology and it makes sense to me. Based on different altitudes and temperature I feel that a bike should be able to adjust its fueling. Which is why on my Z I chose a rapid bike module over a a flash.

But maybe I am not understanding correctly and can be educated more...
Click to expand...
Ride a Shoodabeen flashed concours and then you will understand
 
FTB530 said:
Ride a Shoodabeen flashed concours and then you will understand
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Yea, im sure the flash works 100% in Florida. But will I end up with 89% in PA? Will I get down to 75% in the mountains? In the winter? In my mind, the o2 sensor adjusts for the ambient temperature and elevation. All of the flashes that I am aware of eliminate that functionality. Maybe its not real and I am dreaming. I don't know, I am not an expert.
 
briev802740 said:
Yea, im sure the flash works 100% in Florida. But will I end up with 89% in PA? Will I get down to 75% in the mountains? In the winter? In my mind, the o2 sensor adjusts for the ambient temperature and elevation. All of the flashes that I am aware of eliminate that functionality. Maybe its not real and I am dreaming. I don't know, I am not an expert.
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Well I am far from an expert but I do have the flash on my bike and last weekend I rode from zero elevation to 8000 foot of elevation and the bike ran flawlessly and very fast and smooth
 
That is good to hear. Its always been my problem with flashes is that supposed loss of adaptability of ambient conditions. In my mind at least, the best would be a flash to remove all of the environmental protections along with a fueler that maps and adapts to both closed/open loop areas for fueling. The bikes I owned that were not fuel injected were always sensitive to temperature. My understanding is that FI systems use the A/F readings from the o2 sensor to basically eliminate the issues we used to have with carbed bikes. I expect the same problem when one flashes their ecu that eliminates the o2 sensor feedback. But again, maybe someone can explain that better to me.
 
From +100*F to 20*F and sea level to 7,000’ I have never had a problem over the past +40K miles. I was ensured at time of flash I would lot lose this capability to adjust A/F mapping to altitude and temp, I had same concerns.
My machine has been flashes by a different provider but surely the top providers have this under control.
Also I’m no slouch no matter the temp or altitude and my plugs at 30K miles looked perfect… no worries for me A/F ratios.
 
But what makes those dynamic changes when the sensor is disabled? I guess I don't understand that part. How does the system know you are at higher elevation and running leaner? Or below 50 degrees etc. How does it know without a sensor?
 
briev802740 said:
But what makes those dynamic changes when the sensor is disabled? I guess I don't understand that part. How does the system know you are at higher elevation and running leaner? Or below 50 degrees etc. How does it know without a sensor?
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Those are conversations for the tuners - not my space. Call up the tuners and ask these questions and more, get educated on the products from them directly.
 
My guess is that the fuel maps are so rich that it isn't noticeable. Which still puts me at thinking that an eco flash and a rapid bike module is the best you can get when it comes to fueling.
 
briev802740 said:
Yea, im sure the flash works 100% in Florida. But will I end up with 89% in PA? Will I get down to 75% in the mountains? In the winter? In my mind, the o2 sensor adjusts for the ambient temperature and elevation. All of the flashes that I am aware of eliminate that functionality. Maybe its not real and I am dreaming. I don't know, I am not an expert.
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As far as I'm aware, modern automotive/motorcycle flashes don't turn off the O2 sensors; they still use them while in closed loop mode at some times, and ignore the signal while in open loop mode at other times, just like the stock tune does.

The MAF or MAP sensor adjusts for density changes due to temperature or elevation, regardless of whether the system is in open loop or closed loop.

Tunes that I'm familiar with change the desired fueling levels in a table for a given load, throttle opening, RPM and air mass. The goal is to run an air to fuel ratio that is ideal for one or more desired outcomes: power, fuel economy, emissions, or longevity.

If the tuner is not experienced, the tune may not be safe for the engine, or operate as well as stock at some outlying conditions. Depends on how conservative or aggressive the tune/tuner is. But generally speaking they will manipulate more than just the fueling (ignition timing, secondary butterflies, valve timing, etc.) and most other systems do not need to account for environmental factors in the same way as long as the fueling is mapped properly. They'd still use the engine temp, knock sensors, and other critical inputs to handle all the normal variables any engine sees.

Hope that helps! And if I'm wrong about any of this, those with more experience can correct me. I've never tuned a non-carbureted motorcycle and only done piggyback systems on cars, so I'm no expert either.

EDIT: to add that tunes ARE available for lots of vehicles to disable O2 sensors when cats are deleted or emissions systems are altered. But a tune alone can be an amazing improvement with a stock engine/exhaust/etc. at the cost of one of the aforementioned tradeoffs and won't lose any adaptability from the stock tune... as long as the tuner accounts for things like the cooling system's capabilities. The tuner also probably makes some assumptions, such as the concept that the owner will perform regular maintenance such as oil, coolant, filter, plug changes and pay more attention to the way it's running than the average cager does!
 
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Excellent feedback @fastenova8707 !

On Ivans page, he specifically says "

• O2 sensors disabled - No need to unplug, or can be removed if desired."​


I don't know if that is with all other tuners. But that confuses me in A/F sensing. I don't see how the tune could know what the current A/F is with the O2 sensor disabled.

But, as you illustrated, maybe it gets enough information from other inputs? Or maybe knowing A/F is not as important as I think. My biggest fear has been loss of power in different ambient conditions. And I feel like losing a sensor is taking a step back and would rather see performance mods that utilize live data to adjust accordingly.
 
Interesting! Maybe it's different on motorcycle tunes because they generally don't have as high of emissions testing requirements.

Again, my understanding may not be complete here, but how I see it, the narrow band O2 sensors used on cars these days are mandated so that emissions don't go sky high if a car is running in suboptimal conditions, more so than being used voluntary to provide optimal power or fuel economy.

I'd *guess* that most production motorcycles aren't using wide band sensors and instead rely on fueling tables for anything outside the narrow band of "cruising" conditions... I wonder if I'm wrong on that?
 
That is my understanding, the narrow band 02 is basically everything on the fuel table that isn't WOT. Which, is basically the most important part of fueling for a street bike IMO. Losing its adaptability in the narrow band is what confuses me on ecu flashes. The ecu flash can write those values in the tune but they can never change. Regardless of ambient conditions, which makes me think, potentially incorrectly, that they can be severely degraded outside of the location and ambient conditions and bike on which the initial tune was made. All bikes are different. You can run two of the same bike on the same dyne and get different results. So a single fuel map doesn't make sense to me.
 
briev802740 said:
Losing its adaptability in the narrow band is what confuses me on ecu flashes. The ecu flash can write those values in the tune but they can never change. Regardless of ambient conditions, which makes me think, potentially incorrectly, that they can be severely degraded outside of the location and ambient conditions and bike on which the initial tune was made. All bikes are different. You can run two of the same bike on the same dyne and get different results. So a single fuel map doesn't make sense to me.
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It wouldn't lose its adaptability to changing environmental conditions. The fuel map is not absolute. It's a starting point based solely on engine load and RPM.

Each additional variable/input places a modifier on each intersection of RPM and load. So, if the engine is cold, it's generally going to add more fuel everywhere, but the additional amount it adds at 3000 RPM will be different if you're at 10% throttle vs WOT at a given airflow (calculated load/vacuum).

So in essence, it's a grid of base values, with a grid of modifiers added or subtracted to that base value, for EACH other variable. A final grid on top of that is fuel trims, which are learned over time based on O2 sensor readings for a small chunk of that grid, the closed loop portion, generally lower loads and lower RPMs. This final grid (actually two grids, short term and long term) is dynamic like you said and can change based on quality of fuel, and condition of ignition components, for instance. Also, the LT and ST fuel trim grids are limited to how much they can change fueling, and the primary goal is decreasing emissions.

Disabling the O2 sensors (because you eliminated the cats or made valve train or large exhaust changes) would result in that final grid being all zeros, so it would just use the values calculated from all of the other inputs, which already account for temperature/elevation/barometer. It just can't correct for weak spark, modified exhaust/intake components, etc. So the tuner would need to provide a tune set up for those components.

On a mostly stock bike there's no need to disable O2 sensors, so the closed loop system will eventually learn fuel trims to get it back to stock A/F ratios, but you can change open loop values, as well as a bunch of the other systems like VVT, ignition timing, etc to make the bike run way better.
 
briev802740 said:
You know what's funny, after watching basically every video and reading a ton of forum posts. I am most entertained by the 'flash wars' between Steve and Ivan. 🍿
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I'm not. :cool:

Just for the point of education, You're confusing what the 02 sensor does and what the ambient condition sensors do. The ambient sensors take into account external intake air temp and also ambient pressure changes (elevation / barometric) , these are balances against engine temp and intake pressure to adjust fueling. Up until 2015, no c-14 had 02 sensors, and they ran fine.

And to allay your other concern... I offer Mountain Runner and Mountain Runner Premium WITH the 02 sensors functioning for all 2015 and later ecu's.

Steve
 
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Congratulations briev802740! She's beautiful!
As for modifications I did a few for comfort right off the bat. I'm long legged and not a youngster anymore so I put on bar risers and lowered the pegs a bit plus I added the Kawa touring seat to keep from sliding into the tank. But from day one everybody here told me to flash it! I thought to myself this thing has more power than I will ever use, why would I want to do that? But as I read more about it I learned that it also smooths out shifting and throttle response and the more I rode the bike the more I realized it really is an issue. I found myself really having to consentrate when shifting and laying on throttle to keep it smooth. This was especially noticeable and concerning in curves. So I took the plunge and went with Steve's Mountain Runner Premium flash. All I can say is I should have listened in the first place. It turned it into a completely different machine. Much smoother and much more enjoyable to ride. So I will pass on the advice....flash her!
 
Thanks @KiowaEagle, out of all the mods I am considering crash bars and a flash. My kids dropped my last bike on the drive way which really sucked. I was able to get color matched paint that looked alright from about 6ft away but close up you could still tell. I know these plastics are not cheap and I bet these bags are a ton of money too. So I am shopping for some protection first. After having a full Akrapovic system on my last bike I am not too interested in anything loud on this one. Protection and flashed though will be my first mods.
 
KiowaEagle said:
Congratulations briev802740! She's beautiful!
As for modifications I did a few for comfort right off the bat. I'm long legged and not a youngster anymore so I put on bar risers and lowered the pegs a bit plus I added the Kawa touring seat to keep from sliding into the tank. But from day one everybody here told me to flash it! I thought to myself this thing has more power than I will ever use, why would I want to do that? But as I read more about it I learned that it also smooths out shifting and throttle response and the more I rode the bike the more I realized it really is an issue. I found myself really having to consentrate when shifting and laying on throttle to keep it smooth. This was especially noticeable and concerning in curves. So I took the plunge and went with Steve's Mountain Runner Premium flash. All I can say is I should have listened in the first place. It turned it into a completely different machine. Much smoother and much more enjoyable to ride. So I will pass on the advice....flash her!
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I went on a ride with a guy and he has a 15 ,I have a 16 and I had a mountain runner flash,That guy told me he didn’t need a flash because his bike was fast enough, so I let him ride my bike and then he went home and sent his ECU off to Florida😂😂
 
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