Pulsing after 3000 RPM

[Jeff.C]

Hello Everyone, 2012 Concourse 14 fourteen thousand miles once a Small Town South Carolina Police Bike before I purchased it a few weeks ago. The Motor Officer used to take it home and do all the maintenance, Oil changed every 3500 Miles using Motul 7100 10w40, Motul products as well in Brake Fluid and Driveline. Valve adjustment was never done but torn down and in process.
The newness of a used bike has worn off and starting to notice small issues and correct them. But there is one that has me perplexed for an Inline four. With the Bike running in neutral and holding the throttle at 3000, and above there is this what feels like a slight Pulsing almost like a clutch basket out of balance so pulling in the clutch to disengage the clutch connection from the engine crankshaft via the main shaft makes no difference, While Riding I can feel it almost feels like a flat-spotted tire in the Handlebars ( there are not the stock bars the bike has Heli Horizons ) like a Thump, Thump, Thump! No matter what gear what speeds it's there as long as you are on the throttle light or heavy input. Cruise up to Hi-way speed or over tried it up to 95MPH pull in the clutch and let it idle its smooth as glass so that eliminated Chassis and Driveline but already knew that from sitting on the center stand from the first test eliminating the trans, Revving it up with the clutch pulled I can feel it, No Abnormal noises from the engine rev really quick good power all through the range so have anyone else experienced such an issue?

 

[laker9142]

It's hard to imagine that such a low mileage and well maintained Concours could have a clutch problem. These clutches are good for at least 250k miles. Also good for 220+ hp stock and 250+ hp with the simple addition of heavier springs. It's possible you could have a 1 in a 1000 manufacturing defect, but doubtful.

Be sure and put new spark plugs in it as it goes back together. It may be just running rough and vibrating. Also some Techron and fresh gas in case it's a plugged injector.

 

[Jeff.C]

Totally agree on the clutch, watch guys running ZX14Rs in the street class running them with no mercy all night! Pretty Much ruled out the driveline cause pulling in the clutch the issue is still present. Could be fuel or spark but Really odd cause the bike runs so strong, it’s not a surge or a miss it feels like a very slight imbalance.

 

[rogracer]

So does the frequency of this "thumping" increase with road speed or engine rpm?

 

[Jeff.C]

Engine RPM only! on the stand in neutral clutch pulled in or out same frequency. Out on the road pull in the clutch and let it idle the machine is super smooth.

Confident last night I found the problem a few more mesurements and double-check and I will release the findings

 

[Jeff.C]

Engine RPM only! on the stand in neutral clutch pulled in or out same frequency. Out on the road pull in the clutch and let it idle the machine is super smooth.

Confident last night I found the problem a few more measurements and double-check and I will release the findings

Noticed that when I was turning the crankshaft to line up my timing marks of the camshaft sprockets something seemed way off and it got me thinking about Kawasaki's use of an Automotive-style VVT phaser that looks similar to the one Kia uses and its heavy. Being this bike was used for Speed Enforcement it was a Dealer converted Police bike........ This bike spent all day in first second and third gear at redline.

I measured the Timing Chain 20 link Distance and the out-of-service Limit 6.359" My measurement 6.441" and we tested it for cracks and fissures and came up full also, the Tensioner fell apart from being certain it can only be whipped so long. Not going to push panic buttons and claim to be an Expert on Concours 14, I purchased it cause I wanted a Low tech throttle cable type of touring Bike that is fairly quick for a bike its weight class, and knowing it's built upon the ZX14R platform with the engine internals that was expected to see lighter-duty such as Cast pistons it still had the bones of the Godzilla of normally aspirated Hyper Sport Bikes my Intention for this bike was never to drag race it or treat it as something it is not but to have a strong two-up machine

It seems the Chain is not made for repeated redline while a two-pound VVT lump of steel is along for the ride, Compared to Automotive-style VVT this timing chain is wimpy. That is my thought and I definitely can't say I'm correct in my assumption of why it happened my background in the 90s was part-time Suzuki & Kawasaki Mechanic cause of passion and a full-time Caddillac tech, Then for the last 20 an International Truck Diesel Tech than a Service manager, and now I write Diesel Diagnostic Software but no engineer.

Going to replace the chain and guides along with a Manual tensioner and look over the VVt mounting carefully and replace it if needed

 

[2andblue]

Noticed that when I was turning the crankshaft to line up my timing marks of the camshaft sprockets something seemed way off and it got me thinking about Kawasaki's use of an Automotive-style VVT phaser that looks similar to the one Kia uses and its heavy. Being this bike was used for Speed Enforcement it was a Dealer converted Police bike........ This bike spent all day in first second and third gear at redline.

I measured the Timing Chain 20 link Distance and the out-of-service Limit 6.359" My measurement 6.441" and we tested it for cracks and fissures and came up full also, the Tensioner fell apart from being certain it can only be whipped so long. Not going to push panic buttons and claim to be an Expert on Concours 14, I purchased it cause I wanted a Low tech throttle cable type of touring Bike that is fairly quick for a bike its weight class, and knowing it's built upon the ZX14R platform with the engine internals that was expected to see lighter-duty such as Cast pistons it still had the bones of the Godzilla of normally aspirated Hyper Sport Bikes my Intention for this bike was never to drag race it or treat it as something it is not but to have a strong two-up machine

It seems the Chain is not made for repeated redline while a two-pound VVT lump of steel is along for the ride, Compared to Automotive-style VVT this timing chain is wimpy. That is my thought and I definitely can't say I'm correct in my assumption of why it happened my background in the 90s was part-time Suzuki & Kawasaki Mechanic cause of passion and a full-time Caddillac tech, Then for the last 20 an International Truck Diesel Tech than a Service manager, and now I write Diesel Diagnostic Software but no engineer.

Going to replace the chain and guides along with a Manual tensioner and look over the VVt mounting carefully and replace it if needed

@Steve in sunny Fla Warned of possible trouble with the VVT and weight thereof.

Our machine has ~44K and we have been frequently enjoying the higher RPM range for more than half 30K of those miles - no problems. Will be measuring my chain next valve check though for sure.

 

[Jeff.C]

@Steve in sunny Fla Warned of possible trouble with the VVT and weight thereof.

Our machine has ~44K and we have been frequently enjoying the higher RPM range for more than half 30K of those miles - no problems. Will be measuring my chain next valve check though for sure.

Chain part number # 92057-0109 is the same going all the way back to the 2006 ZX14 so there is nothing special or specific about it.

 

[Steve in sunny Fla]

 

[Jeff.C]

Right on point Steve

 

[laker9142]

I measured the Timing Chain 20 link Distance and the out-of-service Limit 6.359" My measurement 6.441" and we tested it for cracks and fissures and came up full also, the Tensioner fell apart from being certain it can only be whipped so long

Your showing .004 stretch per link, I had .005 per link the first time I changed mine. But my method was more crude than yours. I just saw that the intake timing mark was 1/8 inch past normal. My tensioner also fell apart. It took forever to quiet down on start up. A little rattle is normal but not like this. The guides should be fine. I didn't see any wear.

The little pin is only there for initial alignment. It doesn't really drive the cam. The single bolt in the center does all the holding so torque it down good n tight. I did remove the vvt actuator and even opened it up (it says not to), but there was nothing to see, no damage. If it ever does slip on the bolt, the pin will shear or elongate the hole its in or something and it'll be bad. But its been removed and replaced for 30-40k miles and no problems.

 

[kzz1king]

I have 80 k on mine and will be checking valves soon. I cannot find the section on measuring the cam chain, where can I find it?

Also, does anyone one know what the 20 link length is on a new chain?

Thanks

 

[rogracer]

So I don't think *steady-state* high rpm can cause a problem with the VVT inertia transmitting excessive torque to the chain. Rather, a rapid change in rpm (i.e., angular acceleration) must be causing the issue. Clumsy shifting or stalling may be exacerbating the problem. At constant rpm (high or low) the VVT inertia doesn't enter into it directly.

 

[2andblue]

So I don't think *steady-state* high rpm can cause a problem with the VVT inertia transmitting excessive torque to the chain. Rather, a rapid change in rpm (i.e., angular acceleration) must be causing the issue. Clumsy shifting or stalling may be exacerbating the problem. At constant rpm (high or low) the VVT inertia doesn't enter into it directly.

Steady RPM minimal impact would make sense yes, however if using machine in a spirited manner high RPM gear shifts will inevitably follow. Kawasaki user manual states shift to next gear to stay out of redline - not avoid shifting at higher RPMs. is anyone aware of technical bulletins on the chain wear? This to me seems like a warranty, design/ performance issue and not a limitation the purchasers were made aware of - if indeed this is occurring with regularity.

Then to stalling OMG - especially from any RPM above idle can’t imagine the strain!!

 

[rogracer]

Shifting without using the clutch may be a bad idea with this engine also...basically causes a "step-change" in engine rpm.

 

[Bagger John]

I short-shift (comparatively speaking) then rev high if I want to go fast. If the bikes see red line it's not during shifting events.

 

[rogracer]

I read an article a couple of years ago about Ducati fitting a quickshifter to a particular engine (don't recall which one). Quickshifters basically provide rapid clutchless shifting...the article mentioned that this causes extra internal stress on certain engine components and that modifications were required before a quickshifter could be fitted. It wasn't mentioned, but it could have included mods to the timing chain....

 

[Bagger John]

The ultimate mod:

Fit a ZX14 cam set, whole head or entire top end to the C14. Steve can flash according to fitted exhaust and away we go.

Feasible?

 

[rogracer]

Sounds like a good project. I always though it was immensely odd that Kawasaki fitted the VVT system to enhance low-end torque...and then went and killed it all with their secondary butterfles.

 

[2andblue]

Interesting there are many here that have been clutch-less shifting and some 100K or even 200K miles without a prob, and no mention of wear parts.

I’ve been running a Quickshifter now for ~15K miles, no probs. Improves with even more smoothness the clutch-less shifts that again many have been doing for years with the C-14. Very interesting.

 

[2andblue]

The ultimate mod:

Fit a ZX14 cam set, whole head or entire top end to the C14. Steve can flash according to fitted exhaust and away we go.

Feasible?

Steve I think mentioned in his video there is a good benefit to the VVT. I do like the idea of being able to wind up the engine without the extra weight to speed up or slow down.

 

[Just Cliff]

Shifting without using the clutch may be a bad idea with this engine also...basically causes a "step-change" in engine rpm.

Don't see where it hurts anything or I've just been lucky.

Interesting there are many here that have been clutch-less shifting and some 100K or even 200K miles without a prob, and no mention of wear parts.

I'm one of those, I have done it since nearly new with no issues & still have the original clutch. Up shifts only for clarification though.

 

[rogracer]

Yeah, I have no direct evidence that clutchless shifting is bad.....it's just a hypothesis based on the rapid rpm change and the Ducati article. YMMV.

 

[kzz1king]

So what does one measure when checking for stretch?

 

[2andblue]

So what does one measure when checking for stretch?

@jeffc125669499 can you inform where this reference came from: “Timing Chain 20 link Distance out-of-service Limit 6.359".

Also Jeff what tests were performed that showed “cracks and fissures and came up full also”. If you had some pics of the defects I would be interested and expect KAWA would be interested also.

Separate note: In the hay day wonder how many police C14’s there were, I could see stations moving away from the Concours 14 after KAWA fell further and further behind on digital technology.

 

[Bagger John]

@jeffc125669499
Separate note: In the hay day wonder how many police C14’s there were, I could see stations moving away from the Concours 14 after KAWA fell further and further behind on digital technology.

There's at least one outfit (with whom I correspond frequently) that is continuing to build C14P motors on-demand, as agencies require. The Kawasaki "P" auxiliary wiring harness is still listed as an available part, though their Fleet Motors VP disavows all knowledge of the program.

I covered it elsewhere on the forum, but that was due to a design flaw in the auxiliary battery charging arrangement. There's also an NHTSA recall for these particular conversions, wherein you can get details of the failure(s) which prompted the recall.

As far as "moving away": The KZ1000P was used as a fleet motor by many departments and was produced from 1974 through 2005. The move away from them was prompted by better drivelines (engine, transmission, final drive), not necessarily the electronics package.

The C14's only real competition in the pursuit motor department these days is the BMW R1200 series...maybe the FJR1300. None (and I've ridden all) bring "whiz-bang-zowie-wowie" electronics to the table, save the standard ABS, traction control and whatnot.

 

[2andblue]

"whiz-bang-zowie-wowie" .

John lots of great information, love the definition of the more advanced telemetry devices!

Are you aware of statistics on dependability of ‘hard service’ C-14’s ?

Also curious to know if pursuit vehicles are driven, such as Cliff, +200K miles without clutch shifting? Many personal riders find no clutch shifts better - and have not reported issues, could it be the same for these hard service machines?

I note the OP Police vehicle was a 2012 and only had 14K miles. I read somewhere a bit ago 14K miles was average miles per year for a FT use police motorcycle in California, as noted by OP small town use so maybe that’s different?

Lastly I see a commonality between OP and another on this subject, for both the chain tensioner fell apart. Could it be the chain tensioner is more faulty allowing whipping and stress which led to the stretching? Unsure how engine speed up or slow down is impacting the chain tensioner or if a particular direction is worse than another - something I suspect is going on there though.

 

[Bagger John]

Are you aware of statistics on dependability of ‘hard service’ C-14’s ?

Also curious to know if pursuit vehicles are driven, such as Cliff, +200K miles without clutch shifting? Many personal riders find no clutch shifts better - and have not reported issues, could it be the same for these hard service machines?

I note the OP Police vehicle was a 2012 and only had 14K miles. I read somewhere a bit ago 14K miles was average miles per year for a FT use police motorcycle in California, as noted by OP small town use so maybe that’s different?

No idea on the first bit - though I suspect a 15k service on those bikes includes clutch, cam chain/tensioner, final drive and brakes in addition to a valve inspection.

As to the second point, I'll try to find out from those who ride or have ridden them as issued motors. The few active duty Motor Officers I'm acquainted with are currently riding FLHRPs or R1200RTPs, though they're aware of the C14P. I'm surprised OSHP didn't pick a few up for use in traffic control duties; they seem popular with western and southwestern agencies.

Depending on the climate, 14k is probably reasonable. We have two seasons in Ahia - winter, and orange barrel. The latter lasts from early May through about this time of year, and I don't recall seeing a Motor Officer from any agency on the road outside of this window. Unlike us privateers, who - lacking common sense - ride year round.

 

[Jeff.C]

Steady RPM minimal impact would make sense yes, however if using machine in a spirited manner high RPM gear shifts will inevitably follow. Kawasaki user manual states shift to next gear to stay out of redline - not avoid shifting at higher RPMs. is anyone aware of technical bulletins on the chain wear? This to me seems like a warranty, design/ performance issue and not a limitation the purchasers were made aware of - if indeed this is occurring with regularity.

Then to stalling OMG - especially from any RPM above idle can’t imagine the strain!!

@jeffc125669499 can you inform where this reference came from: “Timing Chain 20 link Distance out-of-service Limit 6.359".

Also Jeff what tests were performed that showed “cracks and fissures and came up full also”. If you had some pics of the defects I would be interested and expect KAWA would be interested also.

Separate note: In the hay day wonder how many police C14’s there were, I could see stations moving away from the Concours 14 after KAWA fell further and further behind on digital technology.

@jeffc125669499 can you inform where this reference came from: “Timing Chain 20 link Distance out-of-service Limit 6.359".

Also Jeff what tests were performed that showed “cracks and fissures and came up full also”. If you had some pics of the defects I would be interested and expect KAWA would be interested also.

Separate note: In the hay day wonder how many police C14’s there were, I could see stations moving away from the Concours 14 after KAWA fell further and further behind on digital technology.

Hey Guys, Let me say this it's really not hard to know if your chain is worn there are sounds and signs especially if you are following Kawasakis comical valve adjustment procedure in my case whenever lining up my timing rotor I heard a snap and watch the exhaust cam dot disappear down past the cylinder heads gasket edge so if your marks get lost and you're certain your doing it right then your chain is stretched. To respond to where did the 20 link distance come from, I should have not posted my findings. My Background and mostly work grant me access to parts suppliers and engineers in the Automotive, Diesel, and Powersports Industry I'm also a professional motorcycle drag racer holding an NHRA license riding my Harley V-Rod to 7.80s in the 1/4 mile and the Internet takes off with stuff as fast as my Drag Bike no much faster than that LOL

Most Motorcycle Chains are the Hy-Vo style of the chain but the length and gear size dictate the pin style, Just so you know Hy-Vo chains are used in automatic transmissions and four-wheel-drive transfer cases for years of abuse and never fail cause they use a different pin style and are stacked.

Also, the ZX 14 and 14R wear out their chains extremely quick due to the RPM and Valve Spring so if you shop for valve train parts at places like Schnitz Racing or other Drag racing part suppliers most offer replacement chains https://store.schnitzracing.com/kawasaki-oem-cam-chain-kawasaki-zx14-06-21/ and they sell a whole lot according to Ryan Schnitz, Just so you know where dealing with a single row non split pin very light chain.

Reached out to Morse who is a major player in the Hy-Vo chain creation and manufacturing and they were able to ID the style of the chain and it is an Asian manufactured is it a tsubakimoto serious player or one of the other cheaper suppliers that manufacturers will use to save 2 dollars per unit so once we fully knew whos chain it was and I will not divulge that info lets be more interested what is involved as to why they wear out and now I Understand why Ducati went with Belts starting in the late 70s after their bevel drive motors cause belts can live a long time at High RPMs at the tight pitch of small engine pulleys and Ducati has been that way ever since and if you follow Moto GP and SBK they have racked up wins more then anyone.

Morse has special equipment to measure elongation and stretch parameters and after discussing how to check it we all decided the method we used was really crude but close enough cause we dialed it back 25 years ago measuring the span between camshafts and found a similar matching chain for a different bike and when they used to have service limits listed in their manuals then we compared it to a brand new Kawasaki Chain lining up 20 Pins
The accuracy rate or error rate is 25 to 35 % without using the right equipment to measure elongation
of a chain but is close enough.

Back to Hy-Vo Chains and their limits are set by engineering people who designed the Hy-Vo chain, based on millions of hours of real-life experience with all kinds of machinery (gasoline engines, diesel engines, electric motors, turbine motors, etc. etc.) and all kinds of machinery, have defined the values of fatigue loading which a given chain can survive for 2.5 million cycles. That fatigue loading is considered to be the load limit for the chain to have " infinite life ".

Here is an example. Consider an engine's camshaft configuration which has a 2.56 ratio and an 8.06” distance between camshafts, and which is being driven at 4000 engine RPM. That input speed produces approximately 1493 tensile cycles per minute or about 90,000 cycles per hour. At that rate, it takes only 28 hours to apply 2.5 million fatigue cycles to the chain and this is similar to an overhead cam motorcycle with a very low RPM

Or if we break it down this way looking at Torsional Excitation
the engine torque pulses are superimposed onto the chain tensile fatigue loading, not only do the tensile loads increase by a large multiple, but the cyclic frequency increases rapidly as well. For example, at 4000 RPM, an 8-cylinder engine produces 16,000 torque pulses per minute, which is over 10 times greater than the fatigue-cycling rate which occurs from just rotation with no torsional pulses applied.

In that scenario, at the takeoff power rating of 450 HP and 4600 RPM, the design life of a 2.50-wide chain (using Morse Chain engineering data) is just under 13 hours. At the cruise rating of 400 HP at 4000 RPM, the design life is less than 16 hours. The appropriate Hy-Vo chain for that engine, assuming good torsional attenuation, is a minimum chain width of 3.00 inches in order to have any reasonable life expectancy.

So does the VVT contribute it could but there are 1000s out there with high miles that are fine and maybe those were riding in a different manner and got what the OEM expected? A lot plays into this weight of the machine the service style yes my bike is low miles and Ester based oil used and I can say my rod and main bearings are perfect so the oil did its job but it cant keep metal from stretching but repeated blast into the upper limits found the weak link, Got to remember guys this was an Extreme service Bike and chatting with the Motor officer he told me up to 20 takedowns a Day from a standing start no traction control engaged cause he liked floating the front wheel eight inches off the ground. Nothing is perfect Kawasaki builds a great Bike and on a good note the dealership is stepping up with all the gaskets new APE manual cam tensioner guides, Cam sprockets, We tried finding a Hot Cams Heavy Duty heat treated cam chain and there is no listing its funny they make them for Hyabusa and most Jap bike engines used in drag racing but told me they are staying away from the ZX 14 Chain but gave me no explanation.

Ride your Bikes have fun and hopefully this does not take off like Shell Rotella T 6 being the wrong oil for a motorcycle LOL

 

[2andblue]

Good discussion, glad dealership is stepping up - they should IMO.

Thanks for the details and 7.80s what is that 170mph - wheeeewy!

 

[Jeff.C]

Good discussion, glad dealership is stepping up - they should IMO.

Thanks for the details and 7.80s what is that 170mph - wheeeewy!

That was back in June during testing we upped the third stage of Spray along with the lock up clutch so in the Spirit of keeping rods from stretching more then they do we tuned it down and mostly run in the high 7.90s to eights!

 

[2andblue]

That was back in June during testing we upped the third stage of Spray along with the lock up clutch so in the Spirit of keeping rods from stretching more then they do we tuned it down and mostly run in the high 7.90s to eights!

Nice!!! That is a mean machine!