Rear Brake Problem

[TGE]

I've only had my C-14 a couple of weeks, and I'm still in the process of getting familiar with it, and catching up on some regular maintenance. None of the three recalls had been done on the bike, so I dropped it off at the local stealership to get those done. Yesterday I received a call from them, saying that they would be unable to do the brake cover recall, because the rear brake wasn't working properly. They said that they didn't want to be the last one to have done work on the rear brake, in case something happened. They also suggested that I give them the go-ahead to spend a 1/2-hour (= $50) to see what the deal was. I wasn't really enthusiastic about forking out cash for an issue that may simply be a matter of bleeding the rear brakes, so I decided to look into that myself. When I went to pick it up, they had gone ahead and done the brake cover recall anyway.

Anyway, this morning I exchanged all three bleeder valves for stainless steel speed bleeders (which I highly recommend, btw!), and decided to bleed both front and rear brakes. The front brakes were no problem, but there is definitely an issue with the rear brake. The rear brake reservoir was full, and the color of the fluid was a bit dark (but not terrible), but there does not appear to be any pressure in the rear brake line. Even with the OEM valve completely removed, pressing the rear brake lever did not produce even a drop of fluid to be expelled. I saw no leaks in the line, and no other obvious mechanical issues along the parts of the rear brake system.

Any ideas or suggestions?

 

[cjny01]

so with everything connected if you step on the brake pedal does the wheel stop? was the brake working when you took it to the dealer?

I haven't played with the rear brake but the one on my bike is useless. I met two other guys to mention the same thing. If I stand on the break with all my weight the bike slightly slows down.

 

[556ALPHA]

so with everything connected if you step on the brake pedal does the wheel stop? was the brake working when you took it to the dealer?

I haven't played with the rear brake but the one on my bike is useless. I met two other guys to mention the same thing. If I stand on the break with all my weight the bike slightly slows down.

this does not help the OP but if you remove that overly tight rear brake return spring you will discover the C14 has rear brakes after all.  No dragging afterwards on the rotors and pedal returns fine. 

 

[TGE]

so with everything connected if you step on the brake pedal does the wheel stop? was the brake working when you took it to the dealer?

I need to check and see. I must admit, I don't much use the rear brake on any of my bikes, and therefore did not notice how poorly it performed.

 

[TGE]

I checked it again, and no - it doesn't brake the wheel at all. It also does not have the proper tension feel that a brake lever typically has.

 

[Fred H.]

Sounds like you have a kinked/bent or clogged brake line or a problem in the master cylinder. You're probably going to have to dig a little deeper. There are some hard lines that run to the rear brake. The first thing I would do is a visual inspection to see if one has been crushed somewhere.

You could also have an internal problem with the ABS unit, but I'd first want to rule out all the problems before I started looking into it.

 

[Conrad]

You know that there are two bleed valves on the rear brake right, one inside one outside? Did you bleed em both?

 

[TGE]

You know that there are two bleed valves on the rear brake right, one inside one outside? Did you bleed em both?

No, I did not know that - thanks for pointing that out! I'm going to try to bleed the inside one, but I won't be surprised if the outcome is the same on that side. It seems to me that there is a blockage somewhere in the system, but there are no kinked or twisted parts where a blockage would be obvious.

 

[TGE]

I just checked the inside bleeder valve, and as I suspected, there is no pressure in the system at all. Should I perhaps use a manual pump to see if I can eliminate the blockage in the system?

 

[tundra tom]

I just checked the inside bleeder valve, and as I suspected, there is no pressure in the system at all. Should I perhaps use a manual pump to see if I can eliminate the blockage in the system?

TGE, My 2008 C-14 had rear brake issues since new. Went through all the procedures you have, no rocks sticking anywhere, cooking the fluid in the caliper dark, multiple bleedings etc. Eventually they almost locked up, fried the pads and blued/warped the rotor. I took it to the dealership (again) and they had to replace the master cylinder for the dragging to stop. They of course replaced the rotor and pads too all under warranty. I had a picture of my pads when I pulled them, they looked like charcoal briquettes. I feel fortunate it did not lock and put me on my helmet.

 

[TGE]

Just an update on this issue: I spent some time troubleshooting the rear brake system, and I now feel confident that I've identified the problem. The line has pressure all the way up to the ABS hydraulic unit/pressure modulator, but there is no pressure coming out of that unit. It is not affecting the front brakes, and is not creating an ABS error code. The retail price of the part is outrageous ($1k+), but there are multiple units on fleabay for $100 or less. I'm probably going to try one of those and see if that fixes the problem. I may also upgrade the lines to SS lines, while I'm at it.

 

[Cap'n Bob]

Why not just bypass the ABS. Nobody uses rear brakes anyway!!!!!!!!!!!!!!    >          opcorncouple:

 

[mcgyver74]

Now Bob, why would you say that?

opcorn:

 

[wendel]

I do not know if it would help but, have you tried removing the bleeders and then pumping the brakes just in case something is too big to pass through the bleeders?

 

[Cap'n Bob]

I do not know if it would help but, have you tried removing the bleeders and then pumping the brakes just in case something is too big to pass through the bleeders?

That's a good suggestion. You have nothing to lose if it isn't working now anyway. So why not give it a try.

 

[TGE]

I do not know if it would help but, have you tried removing the bleeders and then pumping the brakes just in case something is too big to pass through the bleeders?

Yep. Actually, I was hoping for that to be the case. Unfortunately, even with the bleeder valves removed, there is not a hint of brake fluid in that part of the brake line, despite endless pedal pumping and later even a pump being hooked up to it. The fluid travels effortlessly up to the ABS hydraulic unit/pressure modulator, but is bone dry from there on out.

And Bob - trust me, it was quite tempting to bypass the ABS on the rear, especially when I saw how easy it it appears to be to do so. Then I regained my senses: screw that, I didn't buy a C-14 ABS just so that I could bypass the system...

 

[TGE]

Final update: Problem sorted. Last night I replaced the ABS hydraulic unit, and the rear brakes are now working as they should.

Removing and installing that unit was a PITA. It is situated at a bit of an awkward angle, and the brake line fittings appear to be made of delicate Swiss cheese. For future reference, it is a good idea to mark the brake lines and fittings of the replacement unit BEFORE removing the old unit, as it may otherwise be easy to forget which line goes where.

 

[seacurrent]

Had the same problem with the same solution. Found a module on ebay for $50 and saved myself $950! The way I see it I could buy 20 of 'em at that price and still be ahead of the game. Thanks for the info as it helped speed the diagnosis for me.

 

[jmd10259]

I know on some cars when bleeding ABS systems, sometimes the key needs to be turned on, key on engine off. Maybe worth a try! Also are there any bleeder screws on the top of the ABS unit you might be missing?? Just a thought. Hope you get her!!

 

[pistole]

I know on some cars when bleeding ABS systems, sometimes the key needs to be turned on, key on engine off. Maybe worth a try! Also are there any bleeder screws on the top of the ABS unit you might be missing?? Just a thought. Hope you get her!!

- someone mentioned that the abs pump on the C14 does not need the ignition to be on (nor does it need to be plugged into a computer) for bleeding to be done.

- can anyone confirm whether this is the case ?

- and didn't your abs unit's failure throw a code/red warning light for the ABS on the dash ?

.

 

[Superdave54]

All the older bikes I have worked over, or helped friends with brake problems on, first have problems with the rear brakes because the rear master cylinder has corrosion from moisture accumulation.  Since it sits in a low spot in the system, it is the first to go.  Many times I also find some corrosion in the bottoms of the wheel cylinders as well.  This kind of corrosion is also prevalent in cars and any vehicle with hydraulic brake systems.

Because of this experience, I not only completely flush and bleed my brake systems every two years, but have even converted to the new synthetic fluids that are made to be less hygroscopic.  One brand I found, Amsoil, has even been made to hold water in suspension, and to help eliminate the problem of separation and corrosion.  There are other synthetics, but I have not found others that make that claim.  My older bikes use Dot 3, but my 2011 Concours specifies Dot 4.

Flushing and bleeding, especially in the case where you have replaced a component and introduced air, is a whole other subject.  Bottom line is that if you can not introduce air by sucking out and replacing the fluid in your reservoir, and them pump that new fluid through your system, you will save a LOT of headaches.

 

[TGE]

Had the same problem with the same solution. Found a module on ebay for $50 and saved myself $950! The way I see it I could buy 20 of 'em at that price and still be ahead of the game. Thanks for the info as it helped speed the diagnosis for me.

Glad to hear that the information was of use to you. It sure feels good to save those $950, doesn't it?

- and didn't your abs unit's failure throw a code/red warning light for the ABS on the dash ?

In my case, there was no code/warning light for the ABS on the dash.

 

[ghostrider990]

No, I did not know that - thanks for pointing that out! I'm going to try to bleed the inside one, but I won't be surprised if the outcome is the same on that side. It seems to me that there is a blockage somewhere in the system, but there are no kinked or twisted parts where a blockage would be obvious.

Old post resurrection - but I got a locked brake after recently bleeding my rear.
I can't believe I didn't either know, or REMEMBER the rear Master has TWO bleed valves (inner/outer).
To my memory, this is the second time Ive bled the brakes, and totally forgot.

good reminder.

gr

 

[Freddy]

These are the 3 types of known failure on the early bikes; either solid pedal with no braking effect at the wheel OR locked on rear wheel AND no warning from the ABS lamp in the display. There are/were several threads on this forum and elsewhere on the issue. I have written extensively on it in the Australian forum below over 7 years (if you have a week to read all the history/posts) as have others. Kaw is well aware of it and have given a small number of original owners a new ABS free of charge - me included. Unlike HD which have the same problem on some models in greater numbers, Kaw will not do a recall due to the failures being low in number. The only fix is to replace the ABS unit. In Australia they cost $2500 for a new one or about a tenth of that for a used one. No-one's lived to report it on the front circuit.

Australian Kawasaki GTR Owners-Hard Rear Brake Pedal - BRAKE FAILURE

I noticed when I rode my bike last, a week or 2 ago that the pedal felt rock-solid, like it had a rock stuck in the mechanism yet the wheel spun freel

www.tapatalk.com

Like you GR, I'll get evicted from here in a coupla weeks so I'm glad to provide some useful information for the real members while I can.

 

[connie_rider]

For what's it's worth, I sent a suggestion to the BOD to review the removal from Forum provision.
Part of that suggestion was that people not in the USA "could be allowed to remain" as becoming a Member offers few benefits to them.

Ride safe, Ted

 

[Tim R]

I think there has been a couple of took ABS modulator apart, cleaned and reassembled and got it working again. The problem I see is the rubber brake lines deuterate over time and puts tiny bits of rubber in the fluid. These tiny bits of rubber work them selves into the ABS modulator pistons and jam things up.

So it is important to flush the system with fresh brake fluid at least every two years if not annually. Bleeding the brakes and masters is one of my spring before riding season jobs. I also exercise the ABS system in a dirt parking lot a couple of times a year just to make sure things are still free. Might be over kill. Also before everyone gets excited, this rear brake problem seems to be pretty much limited to the 8's and 9's. I have a 09 rocket ship.

Also much over looked and or put off due to expense is the rubber brake line replacement schedule. One of these days I will start ordering replacement rubber lines but dang, I feel like I have better things to spend $ if still holding fluid.

BTW....doing the rock guard recall did not solve the problem of rock collection on the brake rod. It was the third recall where round linkage and rods fixed the rocks getting stuck on linkage problem. Pretty hard for a rock to stay perched on a round rod compared to a square one.

 

[Freddy]

I think there has been a couple who took ABS modulator apart, cleaned and reassembled and got it working again. The problem I see is the rubber brake lines deuterate over time and puts tiny bits of rubber in the fluid. These tiny bits of rubber work them selves into the ABS modulator pistons and jam things up.

Correct! I'm one who has dabbled with these for some years a now, since I had the rear brake failure. I have repaired several for fellow riders here in Australia in more recent years, using parts from other bikes that have the very same ABS unit. (The ABS ECU -black plastic part- from another make/model obviously cannot be used, but that's not where the problem is anyhoo.)

I and a few others have observed that the fluid in the rear circuit often seems to look more contaminated/darker to the naked eye. It's reported that this failure seems to affect only the rear circuit tho the internals of the ABS unit for both F&R are identical. I very rarely make guesses about mechanical things but with this phenomenon I've made an exception: I suspect that the remote mounted reservoir & hose are the cause/source of the contaminants which block the valves within the ABS unit. I've not ben able to clear the particular valve that gets blocked, tho I have yet to try ultrasonic (which was referenced in the blocked fuel filter/pump thread yesterday as I rob that valve from other unit - perhaps I should). Sticking valve also cause this problem. There are 4 valves in this unit; 1 pair move about 1mm, the other pair move about 0.5mm - so 'exercising' the valves as Tim said above is a good thing to do occasionally.

Furthermore, neglecting this critical maintenance item (flushing/bleeding) can cause a build-up of crud within the master cyl. This will eventually cause the the piston to stick in the bore when the system IS flushed one day, with consequential problems - so be aware of that little twist when dealing with these brakes.

 

[nickrides]

Newbie here.
While flushing the brake system fluid is there any trick to flushing the ABS module?
I got a quart of Dot 4 Fluid and going to do it this week.
Nick
2014 C-14

 

[Freddy]

No. The fluid will flow thru freely unless it's got a blockage as discussed above. 'Exercising' the unit as Tim described is a good practise.

You'll be evicted from here soon too Nick so you'd better 'pay up' if you see any benefits (not knowing where you live).

 

[nickrides]

Yea Freddy I Joined the COG this past week, they still have me listed as a forum subscriber, maybe that will change soon.
I'm Telluride Colorado USA
I like this forum, its real friendly, I'm on a couple of other forums that aren't so nice, I like it here.
People here have a good sense of humor, which goes a long way IMHO
Nick
2014 C-14

 

[Freddy]

Wait 'til MOB's over his illness to sharpen up the conversations - I think some folks miss him, others not so much. Cheers MOB

 

[gsun]

Wait 'til MOB's over his illness to sharpen up the conversations - I think some folks miss him, others not so much. Cheers MOB

Like him or not -we miss him! Get well, Rich.

 

[ghostrider990]

Yeah - I just realized I too was getting the boot after reading your posts Freddy.

I don't really get it, but I guess after all the recent unpleasantness this past year or two, the powers that be decided that the COG wasn't taking in enough money - and needed to exclude those that don't get in-line with the group-think of the senior members.
Echo Chamber indeed.
I guess that's the new strategy for attracting newer, younger members. Nice one BOD......you've given the COG as much of a future as Trump has in Politics.

I digress:

Back to the rear brake.....
I thought the ABS failure was only in the earlier model units (pre-2012?).
I've managed to maintain my fluids correctly, so if i've had an ABS pump failure, I doubt it'd be because of blockage or rubber line deterioration.
And I'm sure I had a good flow of fluid through the outboard bleeder valve, I just need to get at the inboard teet and clear that one out.

I'll report back if it doesn't work.....or at least until Feb 27.

I'd like to think that contribution to an organization/group didn't always have to include Monetary supplementation.
Oh well. I didn't like you assholes anyway......

gr

 

[IBAJIM]

I think there has been a couple who took ABS modulator apart, cleaned and reassembled and got it working again. The problem I see is the rubber brake lines deuterate over time and puts tiny bits of rubber in the fluid. These tiny bits of rubber work them selves into the ABS modulator pistons and jam things up.

Correct! I'm one who has dabbled with these for some years a now, since I had the rear brake failure. I have repaired several for fellow riders here in Australia in more recent years, using parts from other bikes that have the very same ABS unit. (The ABS ECU -black plastic part- from another make/model obviously cannot be used, but that's not where the problem is anyhoo.)

SNIP ......................

Please tell us more about working on these ABS units. I think I read they are "sealed" . How did you take it apart ?

BTW, I know several guys on the Honda ST1100 Forum have fixed their ABS modules by cleaning them. So I'm not surprised this is also possible with the C-14. It's always worth a try and a used unit could develop the same problem. May be better to clean the original unit.

 

[Just Cliff]

Newbie here.
While flushing the brake system fluid is there any trick to flushing the ABS module?
I got a quart of Dot 4 Fluid and going to do it this week.
Nick
2014 C-14

The inner rear bleeder is a pain to get to & their are many that don't realize it's there. Speed bleeders are worth the small investment & they really simplify things, particularity that inner rear bleeder.

 

[Tim R]

Please tell us more about working on these ABS units. I think I read they are "sealed" . How did you take it apart ?

BTW, I know several guys on the Honda ST1100 Forum have fixed their ABS modules by cleaning them. So I'm not surprised this is also possible with the C-14. It's always worth a try and a used unit could develop the same problem. May be better to clean the original unit.

See Freddy's post #27 above. Also like mentioned by others I believe MOB has also managed to clean at least one if not more ABS modulators.

Bottom line: This is one area that a little preventive maintenance goes a long ways. Change your brake fluid once in a while.

I know some really like the one way check valve bleeders. I use a Mity Vac. No mess. Plus it can be used for other things.

 

[Freddy]

MOB & I have contributed posts to several threads on this issue. When asked a year or two back, he said he had yet to dismantle one. That may have since changed but I haven't seen such an update from him myself.

The failure is more common on the earlier 4-pipe units (non-TC) tho not in enuff numbers for Kaw to consider it a danger to the riding public - unlike HD. I have seen just a couple of reports of this failure on 2010 & later (5-pipe) TC bikes. See post 13 here for 1 example:

Rear brake jammed

In several occasions recently, the rear brake pedal on my '09 ABS has jammed, it won't move at all. Stomping on it several times fixes the problem. The brake recall had previously been done. Anyone else see anything like this? Thanks, Steve

forum.concours.org

I have worked on and repaired the 4-pipe units only. As mentioned above, the repair of the 'solid-rear-pedal/total-rear-brake' failure and the 'locked rear wheel' failure is covered in the last few pages of that thread on the GTR-AUS forum I linked to above. (I don't know if you need to join to view it, or not. Can you folks see it? If not, I'll post a coupla pix here.) The units are not sealed as such, just tricky to open up. The 'opening up' procedure was first detailed by a member here about 5 years ago to clean his out . I adopted his procedure, just don't start at the motor end. (With the changes to this forum in recent times the Search function doesn't seem to work well for me so I can't identify him, but I did thank him at the time.)

Flushing/bleeding the system as recommended by the manufacturer is imperative. 'Exercising' the ABS unit on a suitable road surface is highly recommended to keep the valves from sticking.

 

[nickrides]

Exercising your ABS unit sounds pretty exciting, that Connie is top heavy and weighs a ton.
Nick
2014 C-14
PS I had a top Heavy Girlfriend named Kristine. Now I've got a top heavy girlfriend named Connie.
I like Connie much better.
She doesn't mind being left in the garage alone.
Doesn't mind if I have too much to drink and come home late.
Doesn't mind if I look at other bikes
ETC ETC You get the idea.

 

[kzz1king]

I was a little nervous about testing mine, especially the front. I just bit the bullet and locked em on a gravel road! No drama at all. worked great.

Exercising your ABS unit sounds pretty exciting, that Connie is top heavy and weighs a ton.
Nick
2014 C-14
PS I had a top Heavy Girlfriend named Kristine. Now I've got a top heavy girlfriend named Connie.
I like Connie much better.
She doesn't mind being left in the garage alone.
Doesn't mind if I have too much to drink and come home late.
Doesn't mind if I look at other bikes
ETC ETC You get the idea.

 

[hlh1]

I have a gravel driveway and often "test" the front and rear ABS. After the first test it didn't scare me any more.

 

[ghostrider990]

The inner rear bleeder is a pain to get to & their are many that don't realize it's there. Speed bleeders are worth the small investment & they really simplify things, particularity that inner rear bleeder.

So, other than a speed bleeder - what's the best way to get at that inner teet??

I went to purge that thing today, and realized I wasn't going to get it properly bled without rounding off the head.

I'm half considering removing the caliper from the mount to make it more convenient to access....and I'm not saying that's going to solve the problem either. That's a pesky little bugger!
Alternately, I'm also considering doing a fluid PUSH up through the bleeder to eliminate the need for cracking and re-cracking the bleeder.
Which, will undoubtedly lead to trouble.

I'm also certain now, I have never bled that inner unit.....because I'd have remembered how inconvenient it was!!

 

[Tim R]

I like the ABS. Saved my bacon a couple of times. It does stop working when you reach a certain low MPH. I dumped my Connie on a down hill wet drive way with some larger and smooth driveway rocks. I was doing fine until the front locked up. My mistake, should have been on the rear brake instead. I simply did not have the strength to keep the bike from going over but I sure tried.

 

[hlh1]

I like the ABS. Saved my bacon a couple of times. It does stop working when you reach a certain low MPH. I dumped my Connie on a down hill wet drive way with some larger and smooth driveway rocks. I was doing fine until the front locked up. My mistake, should have been on the rear brake instead. I simply did not have the strength to keep the bike from going over but I sure tried.

I can activate the ABS down to 5 mph, and it may stop working below that.

 

[2andblue]

So, other than a speed bleeder - what's the best way to get at that inner teet??

I went to purge that thing today, and realized I wasn't going to get it properly bled without rounding off the head.

I'm half considering removing the caliper from the mount to make it more convenient to access....and I'm not saying that's going to solve the problem either. That's a pesky little bugger!
Alternately, I'm also considering doing a fluid PUSH up through the bleeder to eliminate the need for cracking and re-cracking the bleeder.
Which, will undoubtedly lead to trouble.

I'm also certain now, I have never bled that inner unit.....because I'd have remembered how inconvenient it was!!

That fluid is going to be crud down there - would try to avoid the push backward. I now use a brake vacuum pump tool to suck fresh fluid through but previously just hook up a rubber hose then open/close with open end / box end wrench.