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That pesky low fuel warning and the disappearance of the range function.

B

B.D.F.

Guest
Guest
Moderators- not sure where this goes so please move it as needed.



So how many folks here have had the low fuel warning surprise them? OK, put down your hands. Now, how many here have been so surprised by the warning that he / she got into a vehicular accident over it? OK, put down your hand. And that concludes the humor portion of our post.

I have conjured up a plug 'n play device that fits a C-14 and eliminates the low fuel warning. The fuel gauge works as it always did other but the low fuel warning is suppressed. But the really nice feature of this device, at least to me, is that the range indicator will continue to work as the fuel level drops. No more "Low Fuel" displayed on the Range page at the very moment it is most useful- after all, who really cares if there is 175 or 190 miles left in the tank? But the difference between 12 miles and -3 miles is pretty important. Please do bear in mind though that the range indicator is a calculated product rather than an exact amount or to put it literally, your mileage may vary from the display, especially at extremely low numbers. I have successfully used the range indicator down to 7 miles remaining at which point the bike was still running but the <nominal> 5.8 gallon fuel tank took 6.04 gallons.

Now for the very best part of this seemingly magical device- it is a no tools, no disassembly / reassembly required install! Yep, you can literally install it in a couple of minutes with no tools, no wiring and no permanent modification to your bike! Fully removable too so the bike can be returned to stock at any time (but let's face it, who would want to remove such a wonderful thing?).

Now I know what a lot of you are thinking- how could anyone put a price on such a marvelous piece of technology? How could it be made available to mere mortals and be able to be enjoyed by thousands, nay, millions of C-14 owners? Well great news- we have worked late into the mid- morning and established an economic cost for such an invaluable product! And remember, nothing but the best components used- OEM or better (better wire): at the moment is $50 and includes shipping in the CONUS. Shipping elsewhere and / or insurance added at actual USPS cost.

The circuit is installed in the wiring just under the saddle.

This is a photo of the device- actually two devices but you will receive only one, most likely either the one in the upper or lower part of the photo.

This is a completely vegan product and no animals were harmed during the construction of this device.

E-mail me if you have any questions or would like to discuss this device further; my e-mail is just under my name on this page.

Brian
 
I moved the thread because it's more of and accessories. My question is why not just push the two buttons under the dash as per the manual to turn low fuel warning off?
 
No. Unfortunately that one is a radio link and would require a stronger radio link or hacking into the LCD on each bike. There isn't even a decent way to make changing / replacing the batteries easier that I can figure out. If only Kawasaki had put the sensors on the outside of the wheels, eh?

Brian

slidebite said:
Will it also get rid of the TPMS low battery warning?
Click to expand...
 
The thread move is fine by me.

Yep, you can turn off the warning that way (Press and hold the top button, press and release the bottom button, release the top button for those who do not know already) but you cannot get the range function to work no matter what you do. Also a lot of people have complained about remembering the button sequence or have trouble operating the buttons when wearing heavy winter gloves. My own personal reason for eliminating the warning is that I wanted to see the range remaining when low on fuel in the northwest of the US, usually late at night. The range function is calculated in realtime so if you have, say, 40 miles of range remaining at, say, 82 MPH, you may have 50 or 55 miles left at 60 MPH. It can make a big difference if the next sizable city is 38 miles away when the warning goes off. Now I just flip my display to the range function when the fuel gauge reads empty. But certainly this is not something that everyone will find useful or of any value.

Brian

TimR said:
I moved the thread because it's more of and accessories. My question is why not just push the two buttons under the dash as per the manual to turn low fuel warning off?
Click to expand...
 
Just so I understand, plug it in and that's it? forever. Fuel counts down to zero or until you put more fuel in it?
 
Count me in for one. I'm usually in the middle of doing mental calculations of what's left when the damn thing goes off and I have no numbers to refer to.

Check your messages.
 
does the fuel level still blink or give other indicators ?? just dislike the shift indicator being lost, and the obnoxious low fuel. hardly ever use the range

sooo who will be first to run out after not paying attention and loosing the warning we all hate, lol.

do the 10's hit the mode button on the bar to get past it or does everyone need to do the two button tango like my 09 ??
 
Yes but there is a caveat: the range remaining is an estimate and although pretty accurate, it is not perfect and I would treat it with a bit of respect. Put another way, I the bike will NOT reliably run OUT OF FUEL when the range indicator counts down to 0 [zero]. It could well run out of fuel with 2 or 4 miles of range still showing. I believe this is why Kawasaki shuts off the range indicator when the low fuel point is reached- so that they are not enabling people to run out of fuel. By giving the rider this information it is important to also tell the rider that it is an estimate and should never use the range indicator as an exact function, it is an estimate. I routinely allow my tank to 15 miles and have gone as low as 7 but have never and would never allow it to go below, say, 5 miles. Even when the range indicator read 7 miles the tank took 6.04 gallons (I always overfill the fuel tank) so I do not know if I really had 7 miles of fuel left.

Otherwise, yes, it is just a wiring harness that installs like an extension cord into the bike's harness and nothing more has to be done by the rider. If you do not like it or sell the bike to someone who does not like it, it is a simple matter to simply unplug this harness and remove it from the bike, which will then act just as it did before the harness was installed.

Brian


PaleRider said:
Just so I understand, plug it in and that's it? forever. Fuel counts down to zero or until you put more fuel in it?
Click to expand...
 
OK this is a farkle so what's not to love about it.  I have to have it, put me down for one.  On my ride back from Bedford my low fuel warning light came on and it is super annoying, can't tell which gear I'm in or anything else.  How do we go about ordering one? If the orders go geographically I should be close to the top  ;).
 
No. Once the harness is installed there will not be any further warnings of any kind. The fuel gauge will work of course, and setting a trip meter when filling up so you know how many miles you've gone on a tank is a good idea and the range function will now always show a reading (an approximate reading!).

As I think I already mentioned, this is probably not a good idea for those who appreciate the reminder of the low fuel warning or tend to not be attentive enough to the fuel level. A perfect example would be riding a lot of short distances and not really paying attention to the fuel gauge; instead of a very visible warning the bike will simply run out of fuel and it will only show the range declining if the rider is using that specific page of the display. So again, this modification has its downside and I want anyone who may want one of these to think about how he / she uses the bike and whether or not the fuel warning has been useful to him / her in the past- if so it would probably be best to pass on this farkle.

Brian

DGOLD said:
Does the Red light come still when very low on fuel?
Click to expand...
 
You'll always be on the top of my list Alex.... :) 

To be fair to everyone, that low fuel warning can be shut down by using the buttons on the dash. The sequence is:

Press and hold the top button.
Press and release the bottom button.
Release the top button.

The display will clear, the top / left red warning LED will illuminate and you can use all the functions of the display other than the range display. I do not want anyone to think the display can be cleared only by using this circuit, and I do not want anyone to buy this thing thinking it is the only way to eliminate that nasty warning screen. What this thing does is stop the warning from ever starting in the first place, and it also causes the range function to continue to work no matter what the fuel level in the tank. But to clear the warning screen Kawasaki has already provided a method- you do not need to buy or add anything to the bike for that purpose alone.

So think about it for a bit and please feel free to NOT buy one if you (and of course anyone else) changes your mind, even if you thought you wanted one at first. I really do want happy customers and do not want anyone to feel obligated in any way to purchase anything from me. The royalties alone on The Cat Joke will support me for hundreds of years into the future.

Brian

Gigantor said:
OK this is a farkle so what's not to love about it.  I have to have it, put me down for one.  On my ride back from Bedford my low fuel warning light came on and it is super annoying, can't tell which gear I'm in or anything else.  How do we go about ordering one? If the orders go geographically I should be close to the top  ;).
Click to expand...
 
If you just want to clear the warning display and don't use the range function, you absolutely do not need to buy one of these. You can clear any warning (not errors) including the low fuel warning by using the buttons on the dash. The sequence is:

Press and hold the top button.
Press and release the bottom button.
Release the top button.

The display will clear the warning (if multiple warnings you will have to use the buttons to clear each one individually) and return to its normal state other than the last bar on the fuel gauge flashing and the range function now displaying "Low Fuel" instead of the remaining range. I would suggest trying to quiet the warning with the buttons before buying one of these and then decide if it will be useful to you or not.

As far as running out of fuel, yep that is probably more of a problem with this device installed because the range function continues to display the distance it has calculated remains whether that calculation is exactly right or not. In the end it is up to the rider not to run out of fuel but unfortunately watching it count down instills an incorrect level of confidence in some people I think. I would not allow it to go below, say, 10 or 15 miles remaining because it is an estimate and not an exactly known distance.

Brian

JS_racer said:
does the fuel level still blink or give other indicators ?? just dislike the shift indicator being lost, and the obnoxious low fuel. hardly ever use the range

sooo who will be first to run out after not paying attention and loosing the warning we all hate, lol.

do the 10's hit the mode button on the bar to get past it or does everyone need to do the two button tango like my 09 ??
Click to expand...
 
21 May 2013- sold out. I will contact the folks who got in on the sale and try to remember who wanted one but I will post again when I have them in stock (end of this week or beginning of next).

Of course I do not want anyone who tried to order one to feel obligated to buy one. I did not have many in stock and apologize for running out so quickly.

Thanks for the interest.

Brian
 
Now that I can't have one, I want it so much more!  While I know how to disable that low fuel alarm, it is dangerous if not downright impossible to do it while riding.  It's a PIA to pull over to clear the alarm.  I think this has merit.  Between the GPS fuel gauge, the odometer, and gas gauge, I doubt I would run out of gas and be surprised without the warning.
 
This is really a great idea Brian...thanks for sharing your expertise and skills with fellow COGers.  There was on question I read that I don't believe you answered.....

With your solution installed, does the last bar of the fuel guage retain it's blinking feature when the bike reaches low fuel?

Thanks!
 
No, no more blinking bar on the fuel gauge. That too is part of the overall 'low fuel' condition and will no longer function. Too bad too 'cause that one wasn't intrusive and may have useful. But it is a package built into the system- you either get them all or you get none and this device leaves us with none.

So to be as clear as possible, with one of these things installed, the fuel gauge works as normal except that the last bar will not blink and will always be black (with the letter 'E' in it). That leaves I think 5 bars of fuel usage; at that point the last bar goes clear I kick the display over to the range function and leave it there. Should a tire spring a leak the display will automatically display a warning no matter what page you are on once the pressure hits a certain level which is 32 PSI as I remember. Of course you can toggle through the screens as always with the added benefit that the range display will display the actual range remaining rather than "Low Fuel" and for you Gen. 2 C-14 owners you can do it with the trigger switch on the left handlebar. We Gen. 1 owners have that switch but it is a flash- to- pass switch and does not effect the display.

Brian

1965soda said:
This is really a great idea Brian...thanks for sharing your expertise and skills with fellow COGers.  There was on question I read that I don't believe you answered.....

With your solution installed, does the last bar of the fuel guage retain it's blinking feature when the bike reaches low fuel?

Thanks!
Click to expand...
 
On my 04 ST, the fuel count down would go to 20mi left when on reserve. That's one thing I liked about that fuel gauge, no taking over the whole screen and it had a count down. But the first time it flatlined with 20mi to go, I thought I was in deep do do! :-[ these bikes would not be fun to push. I want one of these, I really dislike the current set up.
 
ST eater said:
On my 04 ST, the fuel count down would go to 20mi left when on reserve. That's one thing I liked about that fuel gauge, no taking over the whole screen and it had a count down. But the first time it flatlined with 20mi to go, I thought I was in deep do do! :-[ these bikes would not be fun to push. I want one of these, I really dislike the current set up.
Click to expand...

Yes, automatically, as soon as it hit reserve it started counting backward  based on the your current MPG. It was pretty darn accurate. Don't mean to say was as I can see my 04 ST1300 from where I am sitting in my shop.
 
ST eater said:
On my 04 ST, the fuel count down would go to 20mi left when on reserve. That's one thing I liked about that fuel gauge, no taking over the whole screen and it had a count down. But the first time it flatlined with 20mi to go, I thought I was in deep do do! :-[ these bikes would not be fun to push. I want one of these, I really dislike the current set up.
Click to expand...


  I kind of like how the FJR does it. When it goes on low fuel warning, you get a small warning on the screen to go along with the other existing information. The only change to said information is that the odometer/trip gage then starts counting from zero. It's a how far you have traveled since you went on low warning  deal rather than how far you might be able to go. (just my preference) I like that a little better than how far I might be able to go. although neither hurts to have.
    Although the truth be told, I get very anxious about fuel levels. So I try to find fuel before I get to the low fuel warnings. But if it does come on, I find a station as soon a possible. I have seen reserves that didn't pick up anywhere near the amount of fuel they are suppose to have. (The Kawasaki Mean Streak is notorious for this) So I try not to chance fate (or running out) Of course I have the luxury of living on the east coast where fuel stations tend to be in fairly close proximity compared to other parts of the country, or world for that matter.
 
Yep, there are different ways to use warnings / indicators and some are better than others. That said, the whole thing is really everyone's opinion anyway; look at the folks who want taller / shorter handlebars, taller / shorter windshields, etc. etc. So in the end the mfg. has to pick one and forge ahead.

Never had an FJR so cannot comment on the way they display anything but obviously I think the C-14 display can be improved.

Good point about where we live and ride. Here in southern New England fuel isn't much of a problem nor is the time of day you want it. Not so much in Wyoming though where there are long stretches of highway either without many fuel stations or stretches where the fuel stations shut down at night.

I guess my biggest personal complaint with the C-14 is the range display; it shuts down at the only time I care about what it might be telling me- when I am low on fuel. Everything else I could live with and while the warning display is annoying, it  can be shut down given enough tries at the magic button sequence. The range disappearing just cannot be dealt with, at least with anything Kawasaki provides.

Low fuel on the C-14 seems to be notoriously accurate though and it is absolutely repeatable. Same thing with the volume of the fuel tank- Kawasaki claims 5.8 gallons but every one I have seen will hold over 6 gallons. Not a big deal maybe but much, much better than the occasional one holding 5.5 gallons (surprise!).

Brian

Cap'n Bob said:
  I kind of like how the FJR does it. When it goes on low fuel warning, you get a small warning on the screen to go along with the other existing information. The only change to said information is that the odometer/trip gage then starts counting from zero. It's a how far you have traveled since you went on low warning  deal rather than how far you might be able to go. (just my preference) I like that a little better than how far I might be able to go. although neither hurts to have.
    Although the truth be told, I get very anxious about fuel levels. So I try to find fuel before I get to the low fuel warnings. But if it does come on, I find a station as soon a possible. I have seen reserves that didn't pick up anywhere near the amount of fuel they are suppose to have. (The Kawasaki Mean Streak is notorious for this) So I try not to chance fate (or running out) Of course I have the luxury of living on the east coast where fuel stations tend to be in fairly close proximity compared to other parts of the country, or world for that matter.
Click to expand...
 
Received mine on Friday, have not had chance to install yet but the instructions look good and the process looks very simple.

Great idea and great service

Thanks
 
Hey,
I just had a great idea! How about you don't run the tank to empty all the time and then you don't get that pesky warning thingy? Having been a mechanic/tech for many years I am not a fan of running any fuel tanks down towards the bottom if it is avoidable. I will explain why; On FI motors in bikes, cars, etc. the fuel pump is cooled off by the fuel in the tank and the lower the fuel level the less the cooling ability. Notice your tank starts getting warmer as you run the level lower.  Also, the lower the level of fuel the harder the pump has to work to maintain fuel pressure at the correct level. In cages, and most probably in bikes as well, running the fuel level low allows the fuel to slosh in the tank excessively and that stirs up any trash that may have found its' way into your tank, (trust me it is there), and it the gets picked up by your expensive fuel pump. In my truck I rarely run below 1/4 tank.
JMO, and what do I know anyway?
ASE Certified Master Auto Tech 1995-2005.
 
I think I would like this mod for trips but not for commuting. Is it fairly easy to put on and take off?
If so count me in on the next batch.

BDF said:
Yep, there are different ways to use warnings / indicators and some are better than others. That said, the whole thing is really everyone's opinion anyway; look at the folks who want taller / shorter handlebars, taller / shorter windshields, etc. etc. So in the end the mfg. has to pick one and forge ahead.

Never had an FJR so cannot comment on the way they display anything but obviously I think the C-14 display can be improved.

Good point about where we live and ride. Here in southern New England fuel isn't much of a problem nor is the time of day you want it. Not so much in Wyoming though where there are long stretches of highway either without many fuel stations or stretches where the fuel stations shut down at night.

I guess my biggest personal complaint with the C-14 is the range display; it shuts down at the only time I care about what it might be telling me- when I am low on fuel. Everything else I could live with and while the warning display is annoying, it  can be shut down given enough tries at the magic button sequence. The range disappearing just cannot be dealt with, at least with anything Kawasaki provides.

Low fuel on the C-14 seems to be notoriously accurate though and it is absolutely repeatable. Same thing with the volume of the fuel tank- Kawasaki claims 5.8 gallons but every one I have seen will hold over 6 gallons. Not a big deal maybe but much, much better than the occasional one holding 5.5 gallons (surprise!).

Brian

Cap'n Bob said:
  I kind of like how the FJR does it. When it goes on low fuel warning, you get a small warning on the screen to go along with the other existing information. The only change to said information is that the odometer/trip gage then starts counting from zero. It's a how far you have traveled since you went on low warning  deal rather than how far you might be able to go. (just my preference) I like that a little better than how far I might be able to go. although neither hurts to have.
    Although the truth be told, I get very anxious about fuel levels. So I try to find fuel before I get to the low fuel warnings. But if it does come on, I find a station as soon a possible. I have seen reserves that didn't pick up anywhere near the amount of fuel they are suppose to have. (The Kawasaki Mean Streak is notorious for this) So I try not to chance fate (or running out) Of course I have the luxury of living on the east coast where fuel stations tend to be in fairly close proximity compared to other parts of the country, or world for that matter.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Well it sounds like you have some solid opinions that you use to operate your equipment. Good for you, and the best of luck with your technique.

I would mention that your physics is a bit off though. The whole 'fuel tank gets warmer' when the fuel level is low is not correct; if the fuel is what is cooling the pump, where does the heat in the fuel itself go? Yep, it passes through the fuel into the walls of the tank and out into the universe (thereby keeping the entropy in the universe constantly increasing). So no matter what the fuel level, the fuel pump will always generate the same amount of heat and the fuel level cannot increase or decrease that heat, only transfer it.

As far as stirring up crud in the tank, the fuel pump is located in the lowest part of a sloped fuel tank on the C-14; all the crud had already settled around the pump. As fuel pumps draw fuel in from the bottom, the fuel system was already exposed to everything in there. Your pickup truck is not a valid comparison because the tank is much wider / longer and has multiple flat planes along the bottom.

I have never been certified by the ASE and of course, will not discuss my bonifides so as always, I advise everyone reading this to weigh the information given, judge the writers and come to your own conclusions.

Brian

mattchewn said:
Hey,
I just had a great idea! How about you don't run the tank to empty all the time and then you don't get that pesky warning thingy? Having been a mechanic/tech for many years I am not a fan of running any fuel tanks down towards the bottom if it is avoidable. I will explain why; On FI motors in bikes, cars, etc. the fuel pump is cooled off by the fuel in the tank and the lower the fuel level the less the cooling ability. Notice your tank starts getting warmer as you run the level lower.  Also, the lower the level of fuel the harder the pump has to work to maintain fuel pressure at the correct level. In cages, and most probably in bikes as well, running the fuel level low allows the fuel to slosh in the tank excessively and that stirs up any trash that may have found its' way into your tank, (trust me it is there), and it the gets picked up by your expensive fuel pump. In my truck I rarely run below 1/4 tank.
JMO, and what do I know anyway?
ASE Certified Master Auto Tech 1995-2005.
Click to expand...
 
Pretty easy- other than taking off the saddle, easier than changing a headlight IMO. It is nothing more than what amounts to an extension cord type of harness that plugs into a harness on the bike. Exactly like the KiPass activation switch bypass but this harness on the bike is easier to get to and requires no tools or removal of bike parts.

Brian

lather said:
I think I would like this mod for trips but not for commuting. Is it fairly easy to put on and take off?
If so count me in on the next batch.
Click to expand...
 
Thanks for the kind words.

Well, that's it folks- these things are loose in the wild now and there won't be any stopping the process. Yep, from now on each and every single time you see a C-14 anywhere in the world, you will have to wonder.....'Does THAT bike have one of those neat low fuel warning eliminators?'

:rotflmao:

Please do let us know how the install goes and how you like it.

Brian

LSGiant said:
Received mine on Friday, have not had chance to install yet but the instructions look good and the process looks very simple.

Great idea and great service

Thanks
Click to expand...
 
BDF said:
Pretty easy- other than taking off the saddle, easier than changing a headlight IMO. It is nothing more than what amounts to an extension cord type of harness that plugs into a harness on the bike. Exactly like the KiPass activation switch bypass but this harness on the bike is easier to get to and requires no tools or removal of bike parts.

Brian

lather said:
I think I would like this mod for trips but not for commuting. Is it fairly easy to put on and take off?
If so count me in on the next batch.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Sounds great. I will just plug it in whenever I head out of state but for commuting I will still rely on that helpful pesky red light to remind me to get gas.
 
Yeah, yesterday and those are all gone too, or at least the people on the list have been made aware of how to proceed with the purchase. Now I am out of some key components and cannot have any more until the end of this week at the earliest.

It is tough to predict the sales of things like this- how many for an initial order.... 20, 50, 200? The components are expensive and I do not want to stock them and manufacturer, say, 200 circuits only to have 15 sell. On the other hand, if I put together 50 of them and get 75 orders in 24 hours, I cannot get the components and quickly enough that I feel comfortable selling the product in advance; several of the parts come from Japan and even with air shipping it takes a bit of time to clear US customs. The next batch of long- lead items has been ordered, and I will order more of everything procured in the US tomorrow (holiday today) and once everything arrives, I promise to whip those elves and not allow them food or bathroom breaks until every last 'I want one' is satisfied. Sure it's hard on the elves but we are motorcyclists and should not have to wait one extra second for our farkles :)

Seriously, I am on it and will provide product as soon as possible. Thanks for the interest.

Have also ordered Japanese components for the next trinket which I think some folks are going to like. We will see. There isn't an orifice on a C-14 that I have not thought of plugging something into.... wait, I mean adding electronical (one of my very favorite words)  farkles of course.

Brian

631rmercer said:
Any idea when more will be available??  >:D
Click to expand...
 
Quote:
I would mention that your physics is a bit off though. The whole 'fuel tank gets warmer' when the fuel level is low is not correct; if the fuel is what is cooling the pump, where does the heat in the fuel itself go? Yep, it passes through the fuel into the walls of the tank and out into the universe (thereby keeping the entropy in the universe constantly increasing). So no matter what the fuel level, the fuel pump will always generate the same amount of heat and the fuel level cannot increase or decrease that heat, only transfer it.


    Actually the physics are flawless. More fuel in the tank means more surface area to distribute heat= faster transfer and lower total heat buildup. As the fuel level decreases the ability to dissipate heat is subsequently diminished. Thereby increasing the average temperature of the fuel.  Think of trying to cool your favorite beverage  standing up in a cooler with one inch of ice in the bottom. In your math it will cool the entire beverage just as fast and as cold as if the cooler was full to the top with ice and therefore completely covering the outer surface of said beverage. You might want to reexamine your thermal dynamics principals.
Matt
 
Farkle installed. It took less then ten seconds. I have already had my tank off so the plug in was readily accessible. Now i just have to run the tank empty to test.

Matt, as far as putting fuel in at 1/4 or more. I came off a C10 so this tank is already to small. To cut it back by another 25% is totally unacceptable for the way I ride.
 
ST eater said:
On my 04 ST, the fuel count down would go to 20mi left when on reserve. That's one thing I liked about that fuel gauge, no taking over the whole screen and it had a count down. But the first time it flatlined with 20mi to go, I thought I was in deep do do! :-[ these bikes would not be fun to push. I want one of these, I really dislike the current set up.
Click to expand...
The current generation of Yamaha FJR's activate a third trip meter when the fuel gets low. You always have two trip meters, like the Connie, but then you get a "Reserve" trip that counts up from zero to tell you how long you've been on "reserve." They leave it to you to figure out how far you can go on 1.5 gallons. I liked that set-up.
 
Er..... well, let me take one more stab at this for the innocent that might be following along- and my explanation does not require or depend on beer or the bottles that may contain it.

If you have a given device (the fuel pump) that puts out a fixed amount of heat (it does as the energy going into it is constant), the surrounding medium MUST dissipate that amount of heat. All heat generated by the fuel pump only has two outlets; the fuel going out to the engine, which we can treat as a constant but in any event the amount of cooling done through that medium is small, and the shell of the fuel tank itself because it houses the fuel pump. The fuel in-between the heat generating unit (the pump) and the elimination of that heat from our model (the motorcycle itself, specifically the outer wall of the fuel tank) does not impact the amount of heat transferred.

By the way, it is not my physics or my math; others figured this out long ago, wrote it down and it has been passed along every since. Bernoulli's principle is not intuitive but it does seem to be correct.

At any rate, whatever works for you. Certainly there is nothing wrong with keeping a vehicle's fuel tank above a certain minimum, even if that minimum is arbitrary or different from other's minimum levels.

Have a nice day (seriously, not sarcastically).

Brian

mattchewn said:
Quote:
I would mention that your physics is a bit off though. The whole 'fuel tank gets warmer' when the fuel level is low is not correct; if the fuel is what is cooling the pump, where does the heat in the fuel itself go? Yep, it passes through the fuel into the walls of the tank and out into the universe (thereby keeping the entropy in the universe constantly increasing). So no matter what the fuel level, the fuel pump will always generate the same amount of heat and the fuel level cannot increase or decrease that heat, only transfer it.


    Actually the physics are flawless. More fuel in the tank means more surface area to distribute heat= faster transfer and lower total heat buildup. As the fuel level decreases the ability to dissipate heat is subsequently diminished. Thereby increasing the average temperature of the fuel.  Think of trying to cool your favorite beverage  standing up in a cooler with one inch of ice in the bottom. In your math it will cool the entire beverage just as fast and as cold as if the cooler was full to the top with ice and therefore completely covering the outer surface of said beverage. You might want to reexamine your thermal dynamics principals.
Matt
Click to expand...
 
Glad the install went well for you.

I would just like to point out that there is no need nor any advantage whatsoever in removing the fuel tank to install this device. The wiring is readily accessible with the fuel tank in place and everything else in place on the motorcycle. I just don't want anyone to get the idea that removing the fuel tank is needed or even helps with the installation.

Brian

LSGiant said:
Farkle installed. It took less then ten seconds. I have already had my tank off so the plug in was readily accessible. Now i just have to run the tank empty to test.

Matt, as far as putting fuel in at 1/4 or more. I came off a C10 so this tank is already to small. To cut it back by another 25% is totally unacceptable for the way I ride.
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LSGiant,
The 1/4 tank was in regards to my truck. Big tank, (38 gal) not far enough distances.  In my bike I run for 180-200 miles= not flashing yet, and then get fuel. Im not interested in finding out the maximum amount of fuel that my tank will hold, i.e. ran out. I know there are times when fuel is not readily available, or it aint convenient etc. I just want to keep things running as long as I can with a minimum of unscheduled maintenance. Please feel free to drive, fuel, (or not fuel) your bike, car, truck, lawnmowers, as u see fit!! Happy riding!
Matt
 
Yep, a different way to do things.

The way Kawasaki implements the range function, at least after it is allowed to work properly with the addition of a <ahem> particular gadget, is more reflective of how the vehicle is actually used. The odometer function tells the rider how many miles have been traveled since hitting the low fuel level that is not combined in any way with the currant rate of fuel usage. The range function on a C-14 does calculate the range based on the remaining fuel being consumed at the current rate so the rider can regulate the rate of fuel consumption by backing off the bike's speed for example, and have that change be reflected in real- time on the LCD range function. The FJR will display the miles traveled but the rider has no way to know the fuel consumption rate from the time the low fuel warning was reached; sure you can tell you've gone 25 miles for example but how many miles do you have on reserve at the current temperature, speed, altitude, and load on the engine?

Of course each of us will like or dislike different methods as we should I think. Besides, I cannot add a [low fuel miles traveled] function to the Kawasaki, only adjust what is already there.

Brian

JimA said:
The current generation of Yamaha FJR's activate a third trip meter when the fuel gets low. You always have two trip meters, like the Connie, but then you get a "Reserve" trip that counts up from zero to tell you how long you've been on "reserve." They leave it to you to figure out how far you can go on 1.5 gallons. I liked that set-up.
Click to expand...
 
- re the heat issue :

- in a motorcycle application , the heat generated by the fuel pump in the tank is perhaps irrelevant when compared to the heat generated by that big engine underneath the tank cooking the tank (and whatever fuel there is in it).
.
 
BDF said:
Well it sounds like you have some solid opinions that you use to operate your equipment. Good for you, and the best of luck with your technique.

I would mention that your physics is a bit off though. The whole 'fuel tank gets warmer' when the fuel level is low is not correct; if the fuel is what is cooling the pump, where does the heat in the fuel itself go? Yep, it passes through the fuel into the walls of the tank and out into the universe (thereby keeping the entropy in the universe constantly increasing). So no matter what the fuel level, the fuel pump will always generate the same amount of heat and the fuel level cannot increase or decrease that heat, only transfer it.

As far as stirring up crud in the tank, the fuel pump is located in the lowest part of a sloped fuel tank on the C-14; all the crud had already settled around the pump. As fuel pumps draw fuel in from the bottom, the fuel system was already exposed to everything in there. Your pickup truck is not a valid comparison because the tank is much wider / longer and has multiple flat planes along the bottom.

I have never been certified by the ASE and of course, will not discuss my bonifides so as always, I advise everyone reading this to weigh the information given, judge the writers and come to your own conclusions.

Brian

mattchewn said:
Hey,
I just had a great idea! How about you don't run the tank to empty all the time and then you don't get that pesky warning thingy? Having been a mechanic/tech for many years I am not a fan of running any fuel tanks down towards the bottom if it is avoidable. I will explain why; On FI motors in bikes, cars, etc. the fuel pump is cooled off by the fuel in the tank and the lower the fuel level the less the cooling ability. Notice your tank starts getting warmer as you run the level lower.  Also, the lower the level of fuel the harder the pump has to work to maintain fuel pressure at the correct level. In cages, and most probably in bikes as well, running the fuel level low allows the fuel to slosh in the tank excessively and that stirs up any trash that may have found its' way into your tank, (trust me it is there), and it the gets picked up by your expensive fuel pump. In my truck I rarely run below 1/4 tank.
JMO, and what do I know anyway?
ASE Certified Master Auto Tech 1995-2005.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Hello all, I'm a past lurker on here that's slowly getting my 'feet wet'. I am grateful to all that share their knowledge here about my fav ride ever  :great:  I guess I should formally introduce myself somewhere in this forum but for now I'd like to add my perspective on this discussion on Thermodynamics and fuel pumps. It's off the topic thread started by BDF but as I understand the dynamics of heat (energy transfer) there is some incorrect but not uncommon statements regarding heat transfer here. There are also some correct ones but the explanations are off a bit. It's uncanny that everyone who chimed in is also partially correct.  :)

To summarize (paraphrase) what has been stated by Brian - it doesn't mater what is in the tank, gas or air (gas vapour) as the amount of heat generated by the pump is constant and so in a steady state situation with the energy dissipating into the environment via conduction through the tank walls  the pump is thermally unaffected by the type of medium around it. That is both true (tank temp) and false (pump temp) because the fact that we are comparing the thermal properties of a liquid and a 'gas' (air/gas vapour) as if they are the same but yet they vary significantly. A denser medium such as fuel is much more able to transfer the heat generated to the tank walls via conduction then a gas vapour can and thus does this at a lower temperature (more molecules vibrating less). This causes a much different temperature profile from the heat source to the tank wall for each medium. Where Brian is bang on is that the amount of energy dissipated to the tank walls is the same in both cases. But for the less dense gas to do the same 'work' it has to be at a higher temperature (less molecules vibrating more). That is where Mattchewn is correct, an 'empty' tank is hotter INSIDE. The exterior of the tank is not hotter however as the overall total heat dissipated is the same as Brian asserted. The hotter vapour will in fact transfer the same amount of heat to the tank walls (because there is less mass to do the work) and so the tank will NOT be hotter on the outside. These temperature variances can be very significant and even dangerous. (Thermal reactor rods losing heavy water.... oops...)

It's obvious that the same amount of energy is produced in either case, but due to the much higher mass in the fuel (heat sink) versus vapour, the fuel will be at a lower over all temperature yet holds (and transfers) the same amount of energy as the much less dense gas vapour. (Sorry if I'm repeating myself  ::) ) 


Finally I'd like to add that this is an academic discussion only since modern pumps are designed to operate in a range of temperatures and as far as I can tell, the C-14 fuel pumps are very reliable. So this is the point where Pistole is also correct, the C-14 pump can obviously  handle the 'heat' from the pump action and from other sources.  :great:

Cheers  :beerchug:

 
The only thing worse than losing a portion of the cooling water would be to flood the reactor with cold water, slowing down more free neutrons ('moderating' them)  and ending up with a 'cold water' accident (runaway reaction). Oh wait, about the fuel pump....

Nice overview on the thermodynamics of a modern fuel pump / fuel tank. But in the end, unless a rider were actually riding the motorcycle (or any vehicle) with his / her hand inside the fuel tank, the only way to monitor the heat produced inside the tank would be to feel (and then guess the temperature) of the outside of the tank. Given those circumstances and realities, the tank temperature will not, and can not, change by varying the fuel level inside the tank given the constraints of what is producing the heat and how it is being transferred away from the fuel tank. Of course if you use a big enough field for the overall study, the entropy of the entire universe is still increasing and motorcycles are contributors....

Modern fuel pumps are of the turbine type, spin very fast and basically produce significant volume of flow with pressure being a by-product (as opposed to a positive displacement type of pump where pressure is the direct product and fluidic flow is the by- product). They are really quite simple and robust, able to pass a fair amount of debris and are almost free from shaft wear. Heat is really not a problem under any normal circumstances achievable with a modern vehicle. All of that said, they can suffer bearing wear if ran dry (out of fuel) repeatedly because it is the fuel itself that provides the function of lubrication. The really good news is that I have quite a few loose C-14 fuel pumps, pressure regulators, housings and assorted other parts and assemblies lying around. Oh wait, that is really bad news 'cause I burned up parts of them in developing this thing and had to keep buying more....

But all the way back to the main point, wanna' buy a low fuel warning eliminator / range display enabling circuit?  :D

Brian

CgyC14 said:
Hello all, I'm a past lurker on here that's slowly getting my 'feet wet'. I am grateful to all that share their knowledge here about my fav ride ever  :great:  I guess I should formally introduce myself somewhere in this forum but for now I'd like to add my perspective on this discussion on Thermodynamics and fuel pumps. It's off the topic thread started by BDF but as I understand the dynamics of heat (energy transfer) there is some incorrect but not uncommon statements regarding heat transfer here. There are also some correct ones but the explanations are off a bit. It's uncanny that everyone who chimed in is also partially correct.  :)

To summarize (paraphrase) what has been stated by Brian - it doesn't mater what is in the tank, gas or air (gas vapour) as the amount of heat generated by the pump is constant and so in a steady state situation with the energy dissipating into the environment via conduction through the tank walls  the pump is thermally unaffected by the type of medium around it. That is both true (tank temp) and false (pump temp) because the fact that we are comparing the thermal properties of a liquid and a 'gas' (air/gas vapour) as if they are the same but yet they vary significantly. A denser medium such as fuel is much more able to transfer the heat generated to the tank walls via conduction then a gas vapour can and thus does this at a lower temperature (more molecules vibrating less). This causes a much different temperature profile from the heat source to the tank wall for each medium. Where Brian is bang on is that the amount of energy dissipated to the tank walls is the same in both cases. But for the less dense gas to do the same 'work' it has to be at a higher temperature (less molecules vibrating more). That is where Mattchewn is correct, an 'empty' tank is hotter INSIDE. The exterior of the tank is not hotter however as the overall total heat dissipated is the same as Brian asserted. The hotter vapour will in fact transfer the same amount of heat to the tank walls (because there is less mass to do the work) and so the tank will NOT be hotter on the outside. These temperature variances can be very significant and even dangerous. (Thermal reactor rods losing heavy water.... oops...)

It's obvious that the same amount of energy is produced in either case, but due to the much higher mass in the fuel (heat sink) versus vapour, the fuel will be at a lower over all temperature yet holds (and transfers) the same amount of energy as the much less dense gas vapour. (Sorry if I'm repeating myself  ::) ) 


Finally I'd like to add that this is an academic discussion only since modern pumps are designed to operate in a range of temperatures and as far as I can tell, the C-14 fuel pumps are very reliable. So this is the point where Pistole is also correct, the C-14 pump can obviously  handle the 'heat' from the pump action and from other sources.  :great:

Cheers  :beerchug:
Click to expand...
 
We might as well cover this topic completely. >:D  Does anybody know if the C-14 returns fuel back to the tank, or is it using a “Return-less” fuel system?  I think if it’s the former, it will increase heat as the fuel passes close to the engine on the fuel rails.  The heat generated in the remaining wet fuel could be more than just what is generated by the pump.
 
It is a 'return- less' or one pipe system. The fuel comes out of the tank at the correct pressure (42 PSI if memory serves) and only moves one way- toward the bike. There is no return line. The pump itself makes 'too much' pressure and there is an integral fuel pressure regulator that literally throws the excess 'overboard'. I might have some photos around if anyone is interested but it is a modular style fuel pump with all the parts (pump, pressure regulator, electronics) brought together by the plastic housing that we are calling 'the fuel pump'. The actual fuel pump is really quite small, not much bigger than your thumb, and is common to millions of other vehicles. In fact, I believe there are only a very few different fuel pumps used in all vehicles and once the outer housing is removed, they all are interchangeable, again within those very few types used.

Brian

4Bikes said:
We might as well cover this topic completely. >:D  Does anybody know if the C-14 returns fuel back to the tank, or is it using a “Return-less” fuel system?  I think if it’s the former, it will increase heat as the fuel passes close to the engine on the fuel rails.  The heat generated in the remaining wet fuel could be more than just what is generated by the pump.
Click to expand...
 
Just to clarify this took 10 seconds with the tank on the bike. I had taken the tank off before so I new where the wire and plug were located so I did not have to fish for them.

BDF said:
Glad the install went well for you.

I would just like to point out that there is no need nor any advantage whatsoever in removing the fuel tank to install this device. The wiring is readily accessible with the fuel tank in place and everything else in place on the motorcycle. I just don't want anyone to get the idea that removing the fuel tank is needed or even helps with the installation.

Brian

LSGiant said:
Farkle installed. It took less then ten seconds. I have already had my tank off so the plug in was readily accessible. Now i just have to run the tank empty to test.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Is it possible to modify this Farlke to add a separate LED on the dash that comes on when the low fuel warning would normally come on?

That way you still get a warning light and don't have the annoyance of the dashboard :)
 
Mad River Marc said:
Is it possible to modify this Farlke to add a separate LED on the dash that comes on when the low fuel warning would normally come on?

That way you still get a warning light and don't have the annoyance of the dashboard :)
Click to expand...

Outstanding idea !  :great:
 
Yes but it will be somewhat costly. Also it would require some fairing removal and general tinkering with the bike to install. Not a bad thing but I have found most people want easily installed farkles so it really is a pretty big jump from the circuit I have now to one requiring stringing wiring and probably drilling a hole in the dash to install an LED, or at least to install an LED neatly. I did come up with a neat little widget work- around for the dash display but it again got complicated and pricey.

So there you have it in a nutshell: the various wants we all have coupled with the various costs we all do not want to pay. As the provider of these widgets, I have to weigh (read: guess) what others might want and then carefully research and estimate (again read: guess) what it might sell for. I have a fertile imagination and a bit of skill so trust me, I can come up with really neat farkles all day long (and do) but they are usually not cost effective. For example, I am currently kicking around a long distance comfort idea that I think will work really well and I would love to own BUT I do not believe it could be marketed to enough people to recover the costs of tooling to manufacturer it. Bummer too 'cause I would really like one and think one of YOU FOLKS should make them at a slight loss so the rest of us can enjoy it.  ;D ;D  The real downside to a lot of these types of ideas is that everyone is a little bit unhappy- the customer thinks the price is too high and the provider is either making a pathetic amount of money (well below minimum wage) or breaking even.

So back to your question: could an external indicator be added to my circuit to alert the rider? Yes but I doubt it would be feasible.

The only real way to deal with this problem is the same way we have generated our current high standard of living- through the magic of mass production and economy of scale. Trust me, a knife and fork would cost a tremendous amount then they do now if the town blacksmith where cranking them out with a hammer by the 'one- zies'. Pssst.... hey buddy, wanna' buy 100,000 C-14 dash displays?  ::)

"Fast, cheap, good : pick any two. Then pick one from the remaining two 'cause you ain't gettin' both of those at the same time."

Brian


Mad River Marc said:
Is it possible to modify this Farlke to add a separate LED on the dash that comes on when the low fuel warning would normally come on?

That way you still get a warning light and don't have the annoyance of the dashboard :)
Click to expand...
 
Ahhh, BDF, when I saw you at the Spring Fling with the gas gauge Farckle in hand what I saw in my mind was you wearing a flat top straw hat, arm garters, white shirt, standing in the back of a covered wagon with an Indian side kick saying" this is the last Chance to get one and with out it your life will suck"
        Best of luck with a good idea ,I would purchase one but my wife of 55 years said" the next thing you buy  for THAT bike will be a FOR SALE SIGN!
 
wayne_jenkins_CT said:
I would purchase one but my wife of 55 years said" the next thing you buy  for THAT bike will be a FOR SALE SIGN!
Click to expand...

That’s a Farkle killer statement, if ever there was one.  From now on, I suggest calling it a "repair" of the “Fuel Assessment Remaining Kawi Level Enhancement.”  It still spells Farkle by way of acronym, so you won’t be lying?  :D
 
I love how the fuel pump heat issue will always come up when people start talking about running a tank low on fuel.  Doesn't matter if it's a motorcycle forum, dodge forum, honda forum, the pissing match starts all the same.  lol

Anyhoo, I will say it's great to eliminate the low fuel hijacking of your distance to empty function.

Any my $0.02 on the fuel pump heat issue, who cares, has anyone shown a definite pattern of fuel pumps dying due to all this heat from running a tank low?  Nope I haven't come across one and even if I had I'd still continue my riding / driving habits.

BDF, good job offering this mod to people at a great price.

 
firehawk618 said:
Any my $0.02 on the fuel pump heat issue, who cares, has anyone shown a definite pattern of fuel pumps dying due to all this heat from running a tank low?  Nope I haven't come across one and even if I had I'd still continue my riding / driving habits.
Click to expand...

Good point. The same could be said about burned valves, melted instruments, failure of a plugged tire, seized spark plugs, Dino oil (hold the dreaded oil thread comments).   No one knows for sure the risks, but if it can happen, or happens once,  it can apply to many I suppose.  There will always be folks that fear the worst, and do what they can to improve the odds.  I think I'm one of those because I'm ATGATT and checked my valves.  

In this case, with this mod, I think my odds of crashing while struggling to cancel the fuel alarm that hogs the display functionality, outweighs the risk of a fuel pump failure.
 
4Bikes said:
In this case, with this mod, I think my odds of crashing while struggling to cancel the fuel alarm that hogs the display functionality, outweighs the risk of a fuel pump failure.
Click to expand...
I don't see any connection at all between this mod and risk of fuel pump failure. Installing this mod will have no impact on how far I go between fill ups, it will just make it easier to plan them. Just because I have better range information does not mean I have to change my re-fueling behavior.
 
First off, thanks for the kind words.

As to the pump issue, of course I have not done any tests or temperature measurements so this is just my opinion. As long as there is any fuel in the system and the pump is still pumping fuel, the temperature will not become critical on any components. Nothing about the pump is sensitive to heat; it is a very simple turbine pump that only has two points of contact and those are the bearing points. As there is no side thrust on the bearings, even with a lousy (OK, terrible) lubricant like gasoline they should run forever.

No matter how little fuel there is in the tank, it is taken in at the bottom of the fuel pump and the excess is pumped out of the pump and will circulate around at least some part of the fuel tank. That alone will cool the pump. Whenever the pump is running there is excess fuel being pumped and that excess simply circulates around inside the fuel tank, always cooling it.

Running the pump dry is a different story though. Now there is no lubricant for the pump and the pump shaft is free to rest on one side or more probably, bang around inside the housing. That is why all modern vehicles turn off the fuel pump once the engine is no longer running- on a C-14 the pump will only run three seconds beyond the point the engine stops. We can all hear this when you turn on the ignition; the fuel pump runs as soon as the ignition is turned on but then stops and will not start again until the engine is started (or the ign. is turned off and back on again). This protects the fuel pump when the vehicle runs out of fuel- the fuel pump shuts down very quickly.

Brian

firehawk618 said:
I love how the fuel pump heat issue will always come up when people start talking about running a tank low on fuel.  Doesn't matter if it's a motorcycle forum, dodge forum, honda forum, the pissing match starts all the same.  lol

Anyhoo, I will say it's great to eliminate the low fuel hijacking of your distance to empty function.

Any my $0.02 on the fuel pump heat issue, who cares, has anyone shown a definite pattern of fuel pumps dying due to all this heat from running a tank low?  Nope I haven't come across one and even if I had I'd still continue my riding / driving habits.

BDF, good job offering this mod to people at a great price.
Click to expand...
 
At long last, I have both inventory and now a web page where these things can be purchased. The web page is not complete yet (no information) but the purchase functions DO work. So for those who were asking for one of these, there is now a line to get your hands on one. I think.  ::)  There is also an inventory control function in place so that if the stock runs out they will not be available for purchase. If you can purchase one it means I have them in inventory and they will go out the next business day. Sorry about the delay but this here wed design thingy has a learning curve apparently....

www.InControlne.com

Brian
 
Sorry about this but my website is having some type of trouble with PayPal- so the purchase function is not working. Will post when they are up again and you really can buy them.... really.

:-[

Brian
 
BDF said:
Sorry about this but my website is having some type of trouble with PayPal- so the purchase function is not working. Will post when they are up again and you really can buy them.... really.

:-[

Brian
Click to expand...

Damn!  Just missed the impulse buying moment "by that much."
 
Right on the brink of a verge were ya'?  Hey, your bike was wearing one of those tricky circuits at Bedford- I used it as a demo on how easy it was to install. Much, much easier than setting up to sell them on-line in my experience.  :eek:

Brian

S Smith said:
Damn!  Just missed the impulse buying moment "by that much."
Click to expand...
 
I have done / tried everything I can think of and no go- there is something fundamentally wrong on the payment side of things. After working with the vendor for hours there was no resolution- they were nice enough and really did try but the people available just did not have the expertise to find and fix the problem. The next level is 'Merchant support' which will re- open on Monday <sigh>.

The low fuel warning is just annoying but the KiPass bypass has saved a few people's proverbial bacon. If anyone needs one of those sooner than the middle of next week, I can do something to get one out. E-mail me (not a PM but an e-mail) and we can do something. Otherwise I hope to have this all resolved by midnight Monday.... with a little luck, maybe even this coming Monday.  ???

Brian

631rmercer said:
Dammit!! Was going to order one!!! Make sure to keep us posted when pay pal is ready, want one bad!!!  >:D
Click to expand...
 
OFFTOPIC:

When you press down on the stove knob key, that closes a switch that activates the bike, which in turn probes (easy boys!) for a valid fob w/in range. That switch has a nasty tendency to stick down or "ON" once in a while. KiPass being the clever system that it is works around that too by shutting down to protect the bike from killing the battery. It will not reactivate until that circuit is opened and closed again but the problem is that it is now stuck shut and you cannot open it. There are several.... ahem, 'adjustments' you can try to fix it with my very favorite being to smash tap a rock against the switch housing in an attempt to un-stick the stuck switch. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. What does work is if you open that circuit and then close it again via some other method- so I conjured up the KiPass activation switch Bypass. You pull the fuse, replace the fuse, the LCD lights up, you turn the key, start the bike and ride off. It is vastly better than that other method which involves a tow truck. There are several folks around here who have been stranded by said pesky switch (that's your cue Bob  :D  ).

I will put up more information on what it is / what it does on the web page after 1) I get the rest of the mechanics of the pages working and 2) I figure out how to make a scrolling window w/in a page.

Brian

631rmercer said:
Hey Brian, what's the kipass bypass?
Click to expand...
 
Well, maybe. Don't forget, we have a new and very exciting farkle coming out in the next few days. Not sure who's gonna' like or need that one....

Brian

631rmercer said:
Ahhhh....I see. Gotta have both!!!  >:D
Click to expand...
 
And your circuit is on the way.

A special thank- you to you Bob because you are the one who originally alerted me to the problem, along with recording your attempts to purchase. That really helped when diagnosing the problem.

Thanks again,
Brian

lather said:
You've got $$$ :)
Click to expand...
 
Will someone please post a picture of this thing installed?  Noob here and I can't see where it gets attached to the bike.  I pulled the seat, but am unsure where it goes.
 
Just behind / under the fuel tank.

They come with complete instructions along with photos. They are not hard to install but you may have to do a bit of looking for the cable with a flashlight. In rare cases it might help in using a piece of thin wire bent into a "J" shape and hook the cable but I do not recommend this as you really should not put much force on the cable. I have put them in on customer's bikes in parking lots after lunch and haven't yet had to cut into ice cream eating time afterward :)

Look at the space just behind the tank and there is about a 2" wide gap there. Down in that gap there are two cables that attach to the fuel tank, you want the heavier / thicker of the two but the easiest way is to just retrieve both of them and use the one you need (the circuit will only fit in one cable, and only the right way on that one; it is impossible to install it incorrectly). The cables have enough slack so you can pull them out from behind the tank and get to the connectors; it was made this way so the cables can be disconnected easily before removing the fuel tank. But you do NOT need to remove ANY fasteners or move the fuel tank in any way to install this device.

Brian

Fuzz said:
Will someone please post a picture of this thing installed?  Noob here and I can't see where it gets attached to the bike.  I pulled the seat, but am unsure where it goes.
Click to expand...
 
Brian,

Both items are now installed.

Thanks for the great products, that low fuel warning sign was bugging the hell out of me.
 
Normally Brian's advice is right on, butt... in my case I had to unbolt the tank and lift the rear of it in order to fish the cables out - they were buried way down in there and I didn't want to risk damaging the cable with some sort of tool.
 
I respectfully disagree Jim- you did not have to, you choose to lift the tank, whatever your reason(s). But it is simply not necessary to do this to get to the harness and lift the harness connectors above the level of the tank. I sell three products (one not yet available to the public) and this one is the only one that can be installed by anyone without any tools whatsoever. I do not dispute that Jim lifted his fuel tank to install his, I merely dispute that it had to be done.

I demonstrated how to install one of this on Steve Smith's bike at the Spring Fling in Bedford, PA, earlier this year in front of a handful of people; no tools used, the whole process (including removal of the circuit- it was not for sale at the time) took less than three minutes and I most certainly did not unbolt anything much less lift the fuel tank.

I will be at the Fall Rally in Lake George in a few weeks and would be happy to demonstrate the install on my own or anyone else's C-14, any year, in front of whoever may care to watch. And I will happily demonstrate the install as many times as desired, on as many bikes as desired, without anyone buying the circuit. Put another way, I will happily demonstrate the install without actually selling the product. I am also perfectly happy to have anyone take a video of the process as they may wish to do so.

Brian

JPavlis_CA said:
Normally Brian's advice is right on, butt... in my case I had to unbolt the tank and lift the rear of it in order to fish the cables out - they were buried way down in there and I didn't want to risk damaging the cable with some sort of tool.
Click to expand...
 
Thanks for the kind words and glad it worked out for you.

I will have to re-visit the instructions if you could not find the harness after reading them. My goal has always been to make installation and use of whatever I sell as easy as possible.

Brian

Fuzz said:
Brian,

Both items are now installed.

Thanks for the great products, that low fuel warning sign was bugging the hell out of me.
Click to expand...
 
BDF said:
I respectfully disagree Jim- you did not have to, you choose to lift the tank, whatever your reason(s).
Click to expand...

Brian - you weren't here, so how to hell do you know what influenced my decision? Read my lips... the cables were buried so far down that I could only see the thinner cable, and certainly couldn't grab it. That's the facts.

Glad you've been able to have easy installs on the few you've done. Will it be that easy on all? Who's to say?
 
Brian, first let me say I love this mod, thank you for creating it. But I admit that when I took off the seat, finding those cables was a challenge I didn't anticipate. They were not visible from the top at all. In retrospect, if I had used my 'mirror on a stick' I would have probably seen them. But they were much further down and toward the front of the engine than I expected. Of course it is possible that they got moved at some point (valve adjustment?), and that they were no longer in the stock location exactly.
But either way, I didn't need to remove anything to get them, once I realized they actually were there. Again, thanks.
 
Thank you Jim for this valuable lesson. Some things are harder to learn than others and this one was tougher than it should have been for me but I have now caught on. Life is an endless series of learning cycles and this one that you have provided was less painful than most although not as effortless as those gently spoken between gentlemen.

Have a great day. (seriously)

Brian

JPavlis_CA said:
Brian - you weren't here, so how to hell do you know what influenced my decision? Read my lips... the cables were buried so far down that I could only see the thinner cable, and certainly couldn't grab it. That's the facts.

Glad you've been able to have easy installs on the few you've done. Will it be that easy on all? Who's to say?
Click to expand...
 
I wonder if the cables got pushed down by either a previous servicing, or by the factory?

I'm not at all mechanically inclined, but had no problems in finding the cable when I installed mine.

Jeff
 
BDF said:
Thank you Jim for this valuable lesson. Some things are harder to learn than others and this one was tougher than it should have been for me but I have now caught on. Life is an endless series of learning cycles and this one that you have provided was less painful than most although not as effortless as those gently spoken between gentlemen.
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Sorry Brian, I got annoyed by your empahsis of the words "have" and "choose" (sp). It came across as a bit sarcastic. If you had left them in normal font it would have read better.

It's sort of like when I wanted to return the unit I tried. You were a bit put out that I was unhappy with it or that it didn't work as advertised. It took a bit of back and forth before you understood my reason for not wanting it. Same thing here. There was just no way I could pull those cables out and it was quicker and easier to lift the back of the tank a bit than to go fishing around for some sort of tool that I could use to grab the harness, and without knowing what they looked like I really didn't want to go in blind.

Have a good one.
 
You did not ask for a refund, you offered the unit for sale by saying, and I quote, "After trying it out for several hundred miles, I've decided that the fuel gauge is better suited for the type of riding I do so I'm selling the Fuel Warning Eliminator I picked up from Brian last month." My circuit does not and never had altered the fuel gauge's operation but your false statement that it did (does) confused others and misrepresented my product.

I offered you a full refund and also asked to fix the unit as it would have to be defective to interfere in any way with the fuel gauge function. In your second post you corrected yourself that indeed the fuel gauge did work fine but you wanted the low fuel warning active again. Fine and well, I maintained the offer of the refund which you choose not take but instead sold the unit to another person.

I would ask that anyone confused by Jim's posts, as I was, to read the entire thread to which I refer, it can be found here: http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php/topic,44126.0.html  They are as they were originally right now on 25 August 2013 and will continue to be so unless he edits them but that will leave a tell tale 'edited' line in each post edited.

I am a bit put out but only because I sold you the unit in the first place. I was warned not to do that and yet I proceed; hence the lesson you taught me and have apparently taught others. The transaction turned out as others predicted it would, poorly and misrepresented.

Where we go from here is up to you; if you feel the need to continue to state incorrect facts that involve my products, I will continue to dispute them. You do not currently own any products of mine, nor will you in the future so I would consider our business association concluded. We do not have nor will we have any personal association.

By the way, pointing out my spelling error contained in a sentence that you made two spelling errors in is indicative of your personality and abilities.

Now I really don't care what kind of an evening you have.

Brian

JPavlis_CA said:
Sorry Brian, I got annoyed by your empahsis (sp BDF) of the words "have" and "choose" (sp). It came across as a bit sarcastic. If you had left them in normal font it would have read bette (sp, punctuation BDF)

It's sort of like when I wanted to return the unit I tried. You were a bit put out that I was unhappy with it or that it didn't work as advertised. It took a bit of back and forth before you understood my reason for not wanting it. Same thing here. There was just no way I could pull those cables out and it was quicker and easier to lift the back of the tank a bit than to go fishing around for some sort of tool that I could use to grab the harness, and without knowing what they looked like I really didn't want to go in blind.

Have a good one.
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Believe whatever you want, Brian. You're now the second person selling something to the COG membership that I won't do business with.

Although my interest is piqued about who warned you not to sell to me. Obviously, they are also threatened by honest opinions. And having been around the club since '96, I have a pretty good idea who it is.

And as you know, I never said anything bad about your product, I only said it wasn't a good match for where and how I ride.

I'd normally say c'ya down the road, but I doubt that will happen.

::)
 
In the immortal words of a great philosopher "Can't we all just get along?"

JPavlis sorry the FARKLE didn't work for you, I on the other hand absolutely love it.  I don't need a red light to go off because the fuel gauge is near the speedo and at a glance I can see I'm running out of fuel.  I prefer the range indicator because I've had the low fuel warning light and in a couple of miles I'm panicking, looking for a gas station only to find I still had .8 gallons left.  I get almost 40 mpg so I worried for nothing.

As far as BDF goes, I've known him for some time and you would be hard pressed to find a finer gentleman.  He is intelligent and funny which is a combination hard to come by.

I know no one asked for my opinion but there you have it anyway.
 
thanks guys, i find this all quite hilarious!  also, i will be purchasing this product right after i'm done writing this sentence! i had need of this today in fact when i was worried about how much gas i had left....
 
This is a public apology to Brian, because as he said, "Some things are harder to learn than others and this one was tougher than it should have been."  I was in a down mood, misread what he had written and took out my frustration on him.

Brian's farkle worked as advertised and is a quality piece. My choice of words did not properly convey why I did not find it usefull for the type of riding I do. A lot of riders will find it usefull, and will be quite satisfied with it.
 
Wow that's just way too awesome for someone to come back and post as you have!. I'm sure after a nice days ride at a COG event You'd both have some great stories to share enjoying a cool beverage. ( As all of us do hence why we joined this club).
:great:
 
Jpavlis,

Way to go. I cannot believe how far things can go in such a short time on here. It is really great that there are people on here with the where-with-all to correct something that got out of hand. I applaud you sir!  Now if that other person in the other threads could see the light things might get a lot better. Wait and see I guess.
Matt
 
rob said:
thanks guys, i find this all quite hilarious!  also, i will be purchasing this product right after i'm done writing this sentence! i had need of this today in fact when i was worried about how much gas i had left....
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I found the whole thread pretty funny myself. A quick PM or call by Jpavlis to BDF could have solved it all. Instead all this. Amazing.
 
Wow, you were right- you really do deliver a great post for $20. Sorry I ever doubted you....  ;D

Thanks for the kind words. Now I am going to have to re-think that plan I had for you in NY.... it would seem cruel now.

:rotflmao:

Brian



Gigantor said:
In the immortal words of a great philosopher "Can't we all just get along?"

<snipped embarrassingly, shamefully gratuitous comments>

I know no one asked for my opinion but there you have it anyway.
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I appreciate the sentiment but really, no apology is needed. I took no offense from your comments, thoughts or opinions; my only concern is the representation of my product.

Brian

JPavlis_CA said:
This is a public apology to Brian, because as he said, "Some things are harder to learn than others and this one was tougher than it should have been."  I was in a down mood, misread what he had written and took out my frustration on him.

Brian's farkle worked as advertised and is a quality piece. My choice of words did not properly convey why I did not find it usefull for the type of riding I do. A lot of riders will find it usefull, and will be quite satisfied with it.
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