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What am I doing wrong: brakes and bleeding

dboogie2288

Member
Member
Hi all, long time no see. Last time I worked on the brakes on the connie was 2018 or 19, so I figured I'd do pads all the way around, and bleed em...simple enough, right?

So the pads came in, and in installing them (front btw) I found that the ones on the bike were like 80%+ so...that was a waste, but oh well brakes it's better to be safe than sorry. So I put new pads on and went to bleed. Now, my brake handle had sort of been getting soft lately, so I figured this was a good opportunity to correct that and again its been at least 3 years since I did maintenance on the brakes. Pop the reservoir and fluid is a little discolored, but not bad at all. I opted to go Motul this time around to see if it's as good as everyone claims. Well I cannot seem to get full engagement on the brakes at all. I've done this job 4-6 times with no issues, so I'd like to think I've got it down by this point. I've got the speigler 2 line stainless front brake lines, and now new pads, and motul RBF 600 fluid and I only get what I would say is 70-80% engagement when the handle is fully in, and no real resistance until its mostly pulled in.

Now, when doing the fluid change, I just pump it out via the handle, and I never let it drop to let air into the system. I am getting solid fluid at the bleeder, no air, and even when I give it my 3 pumps and hold to close the bleeder it doesnt seem to help. Again, I've done this several times and never had any issue...so I'm scratching my head. What am I doing wrong?
 
Apply brake. Open Bleeder. Close bleeder at or just as the lever reaches it's full throw. (Like the brake pedal going all the way to the floor on your car). Repeat as necessary. No pumping. I think pumping is what is letting air back in to the system even when holding lever down.

If you have Murph's bleeder with a one way check valve, then pumping is in order because the heck valve doesn't allow air back in while pumping.

Or get a Mity Vac. Attach hose, apply vacuum and open bleeder. Shut bleeder when no bubbles appear or before reservoir runs dry.

Or and very likely the master needs t be bled.
 
I was thinking the master might be the culprit as you said the lever has been feeling a little soft lately. Maybe the change of fluid and or repeated bleeding had an affect on the borderline master sealing ability? Did the hole in the bottom of master get clogged
 
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I have a 2012 C-14 and I bled the clutch and front and rear brakes 2-4 times over the last month. The clutch seems be holding up fine now, but both my brakes go soft to non-existent in a couple days.
I’m pretty sure the lines are original. AND I installed Speed Bleeders from Murphs.

Any thoughts?


2012 C-14, 32,000 miles
 
I have a 2012 C-14 and I bled the clutch and front and rear brakes 2-4 times over the last month. The clutch seems be holding up fine now, but both my brakes go soft to non-existent in a couple days.
I’m pretty sure the lines are original. AND I installed Speed Bleeders from Murphs.

Any thoughts?


2012 C-14, 32,000 miles
This needs to be fixed before you ride further, non-existent brakes means non-existent Offgar612 someday…
  1. Any brake fluid leaks?
  2. Are you getting air out of the system when bleeding?
  3. Did this start recently after a maintenance or is this long-loved ongoing problem?
  4. Have you bled up at the master cylinder?
  5. Does the ABS work?
Let’s see with above answered if we can get some direction going to help you out. If you can’t figure it out - find a professional mechanic - my guess though we can figure it out but mindful opening comment.

Wayne, Carol & Blue
 
My Nephew is having the same problem. Has to bleed the brakes every time he goes out to the garage.
Gets it well bled, good brakes. Then it goes soft with little or no brakes.
I don't think he's seeing any air when he bleeds the system..
Has rebuilt the master Cylinder. Plans to rebuild Calipers next..
I imagine he'll see this discussion and join in.

Ride safe, Ted
 
First off we need to read dbooge's message. he gives a history of of what he is doing.
And sense he posted under the C-10 heading he does not have ABS.
His problem is most likely air in the system. After installing 2 SS lines I had hard time
purging the air out of the system. Had to remove the calipers and hold them so air
would float up to the banjo bolt, up the brake lines to the master cylinder. Never
had this problem with stock arrangement.
 
First off we need to read dbooge's message. he gives a history of of what he is doing.
And sense he posted under the C-10 heading he does not have ABS.
His problem is most likely air in the system. After installing 2 SS lines I had hard time
purging the air out of the system. Had to remove the calipers and hold them so air
would float up to the banjo bolt, up the brake lines to the master cylinder. Never
had this problem with stock arrangement.
Ooops it appears the C-14 post from Offgar612 spun this C-10 convo out. I just text OP to report his message and ask to be moved over to C-14.
 
This needs to be fixed before you ride further, non-existent brakes means non-existent Offgar612 someday…
  1. Any brake fluid leaks?
  2. Are you getting air out of the system when bleeding?
  3. Did this start recently after a maintenance or is this long-loved ongoing problem?
  4. Have you bled up at the master cylinder?
  5. Does the ABS work?
Let’s see with above answered if we can get some direction going to help you out. If you can’t figure it out - find a professional mechanic - my guess though we can figure it out but mindful opening comment.

Wayne, Carol & Blue
1. I do not see any brake fluid leaks.
2. Yes I see bubbles when I bleed. When they stop appearing, I hold the brake lever in half way with a zip tie and then close the speed bleeder.
3. Started happening after I bled the brakes my first time. Fluid was pretty dark Orange. Not sure if previous owner ever bled them.
4. No I have not tried a “reverse bleed.” I have the bleeder bag attached down by the wheel.
5. I believe the ABS is working, but not well.

I just ordered front and rear master cylinder rebuild kits and getting Spiegler or Galfer steel braided lines all the way around. If this doesn’t fix the problem, I give up for the rest of my short riding season. I’d have a mechanic look at it, but all the performance and dealership shops are always booked out 4 to 10 weeks up here in Minneapolis.
 
This has happened to me on other bikes - it will drive you crazy, for sure. There is air trapped somewhere ......

Usually for me "reverse flushing" has taken care of the problem. Fill a syringe ( I buy mine at an AG store )with a small diameter rubber tubing attached with brake fluid. Point the tubing up and expel all the air. Then connect the end of the tubing to the bleeder fitting and open the bleeder fitting and force brake fluid up into the master cylinder reservoir. The air naturally wants to rise, not move down. Hopefully you will see bubbles in the reservoir when doing this. Then bleed in the normal manner.

Good luck !!
 
FYI, If you have speedbleeders they wont allow the pushing of fluid into the calipers? They have a check valve that doesn't allow air to get into them while open and I would think fluid would not pass either.

I have often thought about and remembering hearing from a poster on here that he took an extra master cylinder lid and tapped a hole in it and added a nipple to it. Then he would switch the cover, pull in the lever and pull a vacuum with a mityvac through the master cylinder lid to pull out any trapped air.
Does this sound feasible from all of you hydraulic experts, pulling air out of closed system. I know if you attached a bottle of clean fluid to the bleeder you could actually reverse bleed the system this way. But would the vacuum pull trapped air to the top of the system or just leave the vacuumized air where it exists?
 
I would think you would reverse-bleed the system doing that. It might have some advantages depending on where the air is located, but the reverse-flush with a syringe on the caliper bleeder is proven to help in many cases.
 
I was talking about possibly removing trapped air with the mity vac pulling a vacuum on the master with the lever pulled and a closed system, in other words, leaving the bleeders shut.
In thinking about it more, it probably wouldn't be a great idea unless you cleaned the caliper pistons as the vacuum would want to retract the pistons fully into the caliper with the bleeders closed.
 
With the lever pull you could pull all of the vacuum you want and nothing would happen. The system is closed and the master is providing pressure to the caliper. Now with the lever released it will open the lines to the master cylinder and might help to pull air out. You might need to add fluid into the system from the caliper bleed fitting to move any air in the lines. Vaccum on the master cover is a way to reverse bleed, but the connection to the fitting on the caliper has to be tight or it will suck in air.
Replace the quick bleeders with standard and reverse bleed with a syringe.
 
An alternative to the syringe is to simply remove both left and right calipers, and force all the pistons on both caliper back in as far as you can. This will drive the fluid from the calipers back up to the master cylinder and hopefully purge out any trapped air. I've done this with good results on bikes that get trapped air in the lines.
 
Put a small amount of teflon tape on the threads of the bleeder screw to prevent leaking. Be sure it's only on the threads. A new pump style oiler might be a bit easier than a syringe.
 
If ur still not getting a solid lever, i believe tim r hit it on the head in his earlier response. U said ur.pimping the lever 3 times holding and closing the bleeder. Every time u release the lever to pump it ur drawing air back into the system.

This is why alot of us use a Mighty vac, especially if were doing this alone. I just recently put on murphs speed bleeders on the calipers, and was amazed at.how much air got in the lines as i swapped them out.

Bleeding them was so easy i didnt even use my mighty vac. Open them 1/4 and squeeze. The bleeder has a check valve preventing air from getting drawn back in. After about 7 squeezes i was bubble free.
 
Question. Are there two different bleeder sizes on the C-14?
The 2 on the master Cylinders are smaller than the rest on the calipers and slave Cylinder. Idk about the ABS unit tho. When you get a Speed bleeder kit it includes all of them except the one's on the ABS unit.
 
I do have ABS. I have two longer bleeders and five shorter length. I am reinstalling my OEM bleeders. I think they are OEM bleeders? I wasn’t paying to close attention when I removed them the first time. The Speed Bleeders from Murph also had the Two longer and five shorter bleeders. I just cannot find an explanation or instructions on what goes where. All the part diagrams I look at have the same part number for every bleeder. Which I believe to be incorrect.
 
2 Small longer ones go on the master Cylinders. 1 large one goes on the Clutch SlaveCylinder, 1 for ea front caliper and 2 for the rear caliper, 1 is clearly visable and one is on the opposite side of it ( look from the left side thru the wheel to see it) for a total of 7.
 
Funny, i just changed mine out for.murphs kit. So easy to bleed them. I had forgotten about the one one the rear thats on the inside of the caliper towards the wheel. Its probably never been bled/changed. The brown orangish color of what came out of there surprised me....

And fyi chris has the location of the bleeders correct. 2 smaller ones in seperate pack go to master clutch and brake...
 
Still NO Brakes!!!! I am really getting tired of this. I did the following:
1. I took my original bleeders and cleaned the old Teflon tape off them. They appeared to be in good shape. I put a thin (2 wraps) of new Teflon tape on the threads only and verified the hole was unobstructed.
2. I then replaced the Speed Bleeders with my newly wrapped OEM Bleeders and tightened them at 69 ft/in. It felt like I could tighten them down more. (?)
3. I gravity bled the left caliper and then the right and got some bubbles out. Then did the same on the two rear bleeders.
4.I purchased a Phoenix Systems v-5 Reverse Brake Bleeder kit and Reverse bled all 4 bleeders. No bubbles.
5. As I finished the front and back, I zip tied the brake lever and the brake pedal and tapped the lines and then the calipers with a rubber mallet. I let the bike sit for 12-14 hours overnight and then cut the zip ties and slowly released the lever and brake pedal.
6. I checked around the bleeders for seepage and found a little brake fluid around the front right bleeder. I tightened it a little.
7. After a couple hours, I took the bike out to test the breaks and noticed the pressure in the brake lever seemed a little less than it was before I fired it up. By the time I got to the end of my alley, I grabbed the brakes pretty hard and no stop. It felt like my brake pads turned into sponges.

The brakes worked great before I started bleeding them this last May. So I believe the pads and the calipers should be fine.

I am at a loss. I’m thinking I’ll have it towed out to a dealership and store it for the winter while they work on it.

2012 C14 abs
 
I wouldn't give up yet. It doesn't take a lot of air to screw up the system. I can only offer that the last time I went thru the reverse bleed, I followed up immediately with a vacuum forward-bleed, then followed by a conventional forward-bleed and the brakes were solid. I've also heard others mention that tilting the bike side-side, fore-aft, while tapping brake components (including ABS) with a rubber mallet seemed to help.
 
I have a suggestion but it does involve buying more stuff. Its probably worth it though to maintain your sanity. I've used this thing for years and its never taken more than a few minutes to bleed the brakes or clutch, even from dry condition. Like putting on SS brake lines or sucking the reservoir dry. Start at the furthest bleeder until they're all running good clear fluid. then go to the little bleeders on the master cylinders. And that's it! Finish up with a few old fashioned pulls on the levers while cracking the bleeders. It does require an air compressor to function. Don't even think about the hand pumper, that will really drive you nuts.
 

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I have a suggestion but it does involve buying more stuff. Its probably worth it though to maintain your sanity. I've used this thing for years and its never taken more than a few minutes to bleed the brakes or clutch, even from dry condition. Like putting on SS brake lines or sucking the reservoir dry. Start at the furthest bleeder until they're all running good clear fluid. then go to the little bleeders on the master cylinders. And that's it! Finish up with a few old fashioned pulls on the levers while cracking the bleeders. It does require an air compressor to function. Don't even think about the hand pumper, that will really drive you nuts.
I have used the hand pump model, does work ok, now upgrading to the air pressure - high volume vacuum system for faster full brake / clutch fluid changes. Also the top bleeder at the master cylinders for front brakes and clutch can be a bugger without the higher volume of the air pressure vacuum.

Wish you were closer, quite the frustrating situation.
 
Didnt the north central group do maintenance gathering recently, or is it upcoming? Im certain u could reach out to any of them for help and advice...6 hands and 3 heads couldnt hurt...

Id reach out by checking the cog directory for ur area, and ask (aka as beg) for their hands on assistance...
 
It is pretty hard to bleed the brakes by ones self. An Assistant would make it much easier. Pull/push the brake handle/peddle. Open bleeder till pressure relieved and close the bleeder. Release lever/peddle. Pull/push lever/peddle, open bleeder. Close when pressure relieved. Repeat as necessary.

Fortunately there are also some options to allow bleeding the brakes/clutch and masters by one's self. One is the one-way check valve bleeders from Murph's. When open these let things out but don't let things in. Open and pump lever/peddle till air bubbles gone and or fresh fluid arrives. Close one way check valve bleeders and top off reservoir.

Personally I use a Mity Vac. I picked up one on sale at sears. Cheaper option BTW. I vacuum out the old brake fluid out of the reservoir making darn sure to leave just the amount not to completely dry the reservoir. If you do, air will be introduced. Not a big deal just makes it a longer job. I attach an included bleeder fitting. These are made of rubber and there is an assortment of them. I use a very small zip tie to make sure I have a good seal at the bleeder. Fill res with fresh fluid open bleeder and pump till vacuum is built up. The fluid will empty into the supplied container. (I wish it was a fuzz bigger. Bleed until air bubbles are gone and or fresh fluid has arrived. When using the Mity Vac, be sure to keep an eye on revivor level so it doesn't run dry. Advantage of the Mity Vac is it can be used on other things. Bleed vehicle brakes (I have not done) But I did test out the EGR valve on my 351W. Tested good. I over filled the 900 with oil one night during an oil change. I used the Mity Vac to put the oil level where it belonged without making a huge mess. (It was a huge mess which I hope not to repeat) The one-way check valve bleeders certainly work well but I believe the Mity Vac is a bit more versatile.

I change brake fluid at the start of every riding season. I do this as preventative maintenance. 09's seem to have a problem with junk getting into the ABS modulator/thingy. Expensive repair!! I also exercise the ABS system on a dirt road or parking lot a couple of time s a year. Just so the ABS system gets used a bit once in a while. Just my 2 peso's. Tim
 
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Well I finally got the brakes bled correctly. Pretty sure it was the master cylinder bleeder that had trapped air in there. When I opened the valve with a bleeder bag on it, it almost made a popping sound with air rushing out. So I reverse bled the front and rear brakes AND the master cylinder again and everything is working great! I have brakes again!!
Now I’m going to ride as much as possible before the snow flies!!!!
Thank you all for the help!!
 
Sorry to be late to the party but, just for the sake of debate, has anyone else tried tying the lever back for overnight to force air bubbles trough the system? Normal bleeding still required in the morning.
As I have NOT needed to bleed the brakes on my 2011yet. (I just got it with 8,000Kms showing) I believe that a change of fluid should be due if only because of the age. This is my first ABS bike but have had linked brakes before. I started at the farthest bleeder and moved towards the master for BOTH front and rear systems. Does this sound familiar?
By the way, I purchased and will install a set of Murph's speed bleeders at the same time.
To be clearer, does anyone else bleed both front and rear callipers while bleeding each master?
 
I bleed the master if it needs it. This occurs if I don't keep a sharp eye on reservoir level and suck some air. Sometimes just easier to bleed the master since there is a bleed valve on it. I change my brake fluid every spring. Then I make sure to exercise the ABS a couple of times a year. A dirt road or parking lot works well for doing this.
 
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