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ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?

connie_rider

Member
Member
To all that have installed a ZX Exhaust (or other) on a Connie; Here is my sad story.

Recently I purchased a (2013) ZX-14R OEM Header that I may install on my Connie.
NOTE: I already love the way the bike runs, but wanted a project.
          Reason for the 2013 ZX-R exhaust in this project;
                The header has no Catalytic Converter.
                Headpipes are the largest of the ZX-14 systems.
                Exit ports on the system is the same size as the stock exhaust or the midpipe of my Area P slip on. 

Looks like this;
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2014-Kawasaki-ZX14r-Header-Exhaust-/111820733387?hash=item1a0908fbcb:g:qncAAOSw~bFWQaA2&vxp=mtr

I know that some of you have removed (or talked about removing) their Cats, and some of you have installed ZX-14 exhausts.

Would you share your thoughts with me? 
To those that have installed the ZX-14 headers,,, is it worth doing, and what are the pitfalls?

Ride safe, Ted
 
You will need a left side mid pipe and fashion a hanger for it. May be clearance issues with the side stand and center stand. Are you going with a second area p?
 
You may disagree, but my thought is to remove the left exhaust port entirely and smooth the reducer contour towards the right exhaust port..

Info;
Earlier ZX-14 (I think/ someone please confirm my dia's)
Entire head pipe dia is (1 1/2") {38 mm}
Exhaust port dia (x2) is (2 1/8") {approx. 54 mm}
Has Catalytic converter.
   

ZX-14R: (2013 to current)
Head pipe dia at the Flange is (1 1/2") {38 mm}
Head pipe dia from 2" below the Flange, flares to (1 11/16") {43 mm}
Exhaust port dia (x2) is (2 1/8") {54 mm}
No Catalytic converter.

ZG-14 (Concours)
Entire head pipe dia is (1 3/8") {35 mm}
Exhaust port dia (x1) is (2 1/8") {54 mm}
Has Catalytic converter.

Full Area P System {FAPS}
  Head pipe dia at the Flange is (1 1/2") {38 mm}
  Head pipe dia from below the Flange, flares to (1.730" {approx. 1 23/32"}) {44 mm}
Exhaust port dia (x1) is approx. (2 1/4") {57 mm}
No Catalytic converter.

Ride safe, Ted
 
Ted, your #'s are off. BTW you need to measure and stick with MM in this case. the stock zg isn't 1.5", it's 35mm, 1.5" would be 37.5mm (mol) the early zx pipe was 38mm. There's also design differences between the zg and the zx. This doesn't mean your idea won't work, but you're also going to need to upsize the midpipe and muffler, and then of course, there's tuning. Your turn. Steve
 
Hi,
        Not trying to be negative, and sounds like you know what you want to do, but.... :eek:

What will all this work give you that a simple/good, reflash on your ECU not provide? :-X

I'm not retired yet, work out of town, and have limited time to work/ride on my bike... :(

So maybe I am looking at this wrong? ::)

Just sayin! ;D
 

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Bigger pipes make more power at wide open throttle and high rpm. The sacrifice in responsiveness, low and mid range power aren't worth it since the 'Shoodabeen Flash' made its debut.

Now - I like a project and I know you do too - and this isn't a stupid idea or anything - shoot, this club is a support group for those of us who can't leave well enough alone and buy cheap beer but expensive motorcycle stuff! But, for me, ZX14 exhaust is all about the dual pipes 'look'. Add a 240 rear tire and the look is awesome IMO. I'm not after these things bc Betty is perfect but I love it when others personalize their beasts. So, Ted, get 'er done and post pics(!)

Are you leaving the ECU as-is or ? ? ? If I remember correctly you have the Shoodabeen Flash .... right?
 
My excuses;  {OOps} On the ZG Head Pipes, I typed 1 1/2", meant to type 1 3/8". (I'll fix that)
                  I don't have a earlier ZX-14 to measure. {That's why I sed, "I think"}
                          I should have asked someone to confirm, but I think I'm off about .004"?...
                  On the ZG, I measured on the bike/fairing on, and it's hard to be exact.
                  On the ZX-R I measured and rounded a bit for comparison.
                  I measured with dial calipers.  (They measure in inches not MM)
                    {Left it as inches, as I thought folks could relate/compare better in inches}

I know inches and fractions are approx. But I thought inches was close e'nuff for a comparison?.
For instance; 1 3/8" is 1.375" & 35 mm is 1.378".
                    1 1/2" is 1.500" & 38 mm is 1.496".

Ya'll know me. I like to discuss and ask questions... I like to stir thoughts..
I posted because I want input from the COGdom.
I'm not out to argue. I genuinely want your input, even your insults are ok by me.
But, "Let's keep discussing the idea"!!


I want to know;    if others did special tuning with the ZX installation and what was it?
                          did removing the CAT make any difference?
                          was the Zx install worth the effort?
                          has anyone done a dyno run after the mods?
                          etc, etc, etc,,

Lastly; I agree that tuning will be big. That's part of why I'm asking for input.
          I do not want a Full Area P type of power band.
          I don't want the bike to fall flat on it's face at low rpm.
          I do want a power band with good low/mid range power.
          So, will the (decell) Flash I already have, work to do what I want, or will it croak?
              Does anyone know for certain?
                  Thoughts??

Seagiant/Fias: I am retired/poor, was bored, and was wanting a project.
                      Heck, I might not even put them on the bike... But, maybe it will benefit someone else.
                      After all, nothing new happens until someone sez,  "What if"..
                      For instance: "What if" I put foam in the intakes of a C-10.. >evil grin<

Final thought: This might not work for me at all. But, maybe it could help someone else.
                      Maybe {with the right tuning} it could be similar to a Full Area P power band?
                              Does anyone know for certain?
                                  Thoughts??

Ride safe, Ted    {Seeking more thoughts and discussion!!}  >:D
 
Ted, I feel your pain brother. You know what I went through when I built the Con-tario system for my C-10. But it did work in the
end and I have a one of a kind setup now. Heck I still have a huge box full of exhaust pieces, adapters, and spare header pipes left
over from all of that tinkering. My exhaust flange bolts have been taken off and on so many times they have stretch marks. But hey
like you said nothing ever gets done if we don't try. Its like I always say, don't tell me they don't make one of those for my bike cause
I will build one !!! 
 
Ted...... (more food for thought or....  :pokestick: or  :017: or :hee20hee20hee:  ) ...... If you want to go to a ZX14 exhaust, just get an aftermarket full length ZX14 system. It will save you a lot on headaches. That's the route that I went.
 
Ted, the reason I would prefer to work in mm is because I have already been working on this, and have compiled measurements from other systems and have some 1st hand knowledge of how they work. For instance the area P starts at 38mm, flares to 44mm, has a sequential tri-y, dumps to a 2.25" mid and straight thru muffler. It dyno's very well and the top end is wicked, but it is was softer down low (I got it back with the Area P flash) . The yosh pipe for the zx is slightly smaller at 42mm, I like that better, and the muzzy, iirc is 43mm.  I also built a 35mm long tube 4 into one that didn't do the top end of the area P but pulled outstandingly well up to 7k, though it's still not optimum. I'm currently working on an exhaust idea, and now that I have anytime use of a working dyno  :nananana: :nananana: There will be more info eeked out in the very near future. BTW, your idea certainly merits experimentation. Steve
 
Steve,
Pardon this for being slightly off topic, but I often wonder about the perceived softness down low with the full Area P.  I read here on the forum some posts that made it seem as if the full Area P system even with the SISF flash is softer than the an SISF flashed stock system down low.  I really find that hard to believe.  My system runs like a scalded dog and is linear from down low to up high.  If you compare the numbers...what is the result?  :motonoises:
 
Patrick, when looking on the dyno, the WOT #'s show the area p outpowering stock even by 4000 rpm. The soft feeling comes during light / part throttle, though I got most if not all of that back with tuning. the issues is the big exhaust doesn't have any back pressure, and in fact is evacuating the cylinder of some of it's fresh charge during light throttle operation. Such is the nature of "big" when it comes to engine tuning. Cams, overlap, intake, throttle bodies, Ex pipes... big is the bane of low rpm torque. the only "big" that helps low rpm torque is compression, and there's a very finite amount of that to be used before the pistons break. Steve
 
If you lined up a hundred Connies with a hundred different exhausts they would all run like scalded dogs between our legs. I get my rocks off on my 75hp bike. I pass Harleys with EASE in the mountains on my 9hp Z125Pro - ! Our motor is gonna make great power unless you stuff a banana in there.

The engine is the engine and the exhaust (unless you wanna exaggerate) made with any common sense will only make small changes. Did anyone put an exhaust on their Connie and now it's slow? No!

I spent on my Muzzy to drop weight and because looking at the stock muffler literally upsets me aethetucsllg. Once or twice a year I repaint my exhaust black bc - well - shiny is for cruisers. Make it your own Ted!

So, whatever you do - you're still gonna have a mega power bike and one with your own exhaust set up too! Go for it.

Now if you really want to see your bike perform better than ever - and for free - just toss my the fob  :rotflmao:
 
Yahoo, that's what I wanted. Discussion and info!!


Everyone has good points too. (Even da Pope)  :nananana:
I'll try to reply to each...

Fias, your correct, a header doesn't make power.
But, it allows the engine to make all it can by being more efficient.
More importantly, headers are used to tune the exhaust pulses (so that the motor produces that power in the rpm range you want.)
What I'm hoping to accomplish, is a power band somewhere between the stock and the Full Area P System {ie; FAPS) "without" spending the big bucks for a full system that other (richer/non retired folks/i.e.: "da Pope") are able to buy.

Steve, I see your point about mm. I'll try to do better.
NOTE: You just gave me some of the key info I wanted. (Info on the Full Area P).
            I'll post the  {FAPS} numbers on Reply #3 and get back later on what I think this indicates.

Patrick, Steve, good input on the Full System characteristic's and throttle responce.

Jim, ole Buddy, I think you/me/Steve/others? have always agreed on two things.
              {Err' & mebbe a few more [wine/women/song]}
1*  It's not how much power is made, it's where/how that power is made.
2*  You'll never know if an idea works, if ya don't give it a try.

More replies, MORE REPLIES,,, I want discussion..

Ride safe, Ted
 
Hi,
        Well....I spent over 2K on some used Ohlin's bits? :eek:

I'm sure there were people here, that thought I was just wasting money? ::)

I don't feel that way of course, and feel I am reaping positive things from that decision! (wasn't easy!) >:D >:D >:D

Good luck with the project and please put up plenty of pics! :great:

I love bike projects, I just don't have the time now!!! :-[
 

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Thanks Seagiant. We're on the same page.

I just added the Full Area System numbers to Reply #3. {Go take a look}
It appears that the ZX-14R system diameters will fall somewhere between a stock ZG system and a Full Area P System.
But, the head pipes are closer to the Full Area P dimensions.....
  {Which is exactly what I was hoping for}  >:D

Ride safe, Ted

PS: Is anyone running a {earlier} ZX-14 exhaust system with a stock, or Steve's Decell Flash?
      Is anyone running a ZG Exhaust with Cats removed and a stock, or Steve's Decell Flash?
      If so,,, we need your input!
 
Steve in Sunny Fla said:
"the issue is the big exhaust doesn't have any back pressure, and in fact is evacuating the cylinder of some of it's fresh charge during light throttle operation. Such is the nature of "big" when it comes to engine tuning. Cams, overlap, intake, throttle bodies, Ex pipes... big is the bane of low rpm torque. the only "big" that helps low rpm torque is compression, and there's a very finite amount of that to be used before the pistons break". Steve

Steve hit the nail on the head. Years ago the common belief was bigger has to be better when it came to exhaust. I proved that theory wrong for the first time back in the 80's while tinkering with my GPZ-750. After trying two exhaust systems with larger head pipes I ended up getting more low end torque and rideability (i.e. the area where we do 95% of our riding) by re-installing the stock head pipes. I ended up with the same scenario when I built the 4 into 1 pipe for my C-10. Larger head pipes killed the bottom end due to just what Steve described, reduced back pressure. When I mated the new exhaust back to the smaller head pipes she came alive on the bottom end. Steve has proven over and over that bigger is not always better. When he first introduced the new improved 2MM kit I was lucky to be his test pilot. The concept went against everything "I thought" was right when it came to airflow. But it worked. I read an article years ago by an old tuner who you may have heard of, Byron Hines (Andrew Hines father) who wrote, "an internal combustion engine is merely an air pump, the more efficiently it pumps air the faster it will go. As mentioned earlier I had an archives of pipe prototypes that didn't work, but it was stubborn determination that yielded the final product that worked. So continue on experimenting Mr. Ted, that is how innovation and new ideas are born. Ok I will go back to my corner now.   
 
I also ran into the problem of bigger isn't better when I built the 4 into 1's for my C-10..
But I was able to increase low end by installing a smaller dia mid pipe/slip on.

Not actually experimenting yet as my welder won't be available until January.
Just looking at "what If's"..

Known; the ZX-R header; first 2 inches of the head pipes is bigger than the ZG, but they are the same size as the Full Area P system.
            the ZX-R header; after those 2" flairs to bigger head pipe runners than the ZG, but they are 1 mm smaller than the Full Area P system.
            the ZX-R header has the same size exhaust port as the ZG, {but there are 2 of them}
            the (2 ea.) ZX-R header exhausts ports are 6 mm smaller than the Full Area P system (which has 1 exhaust port).
              NOTE: An Area P Slip on uses a 2" Mid Pipe.
                        (I think) An Area P full system uses a 2 1/4" Mid Pipe

{Trying to get ya'll thinking},,
So, "What If";
        a guy (1; that prefers better low/mid power) uses 1 of the 2 header exhaust ports and an Area P (or other) slip on?
        a guy (2; that prefers better mid/high power) uses both of the header exhaust ports and 2 Area P (or other) slip on's?
        either 1 or 2,, could be done with no Cat removal and no welding? (ie: Bolt on)
        this works almost as good as a Full Area P System, but costs $600 less? >cheap grin<     

Another important known: If this was done, the stock and existing Flashes are not ideal. (But maybe their close?)

Ride safe, Ted
 
Ted, that';s an interesting scenario you present, zx14r header, and then alter for one or 2 slipons, depending on where you want the power bias. Nice idea! Steve
 
Hi,
        Ok, tell me this?

Admittedly I'm ignorant!

My understanding is, Steve has made a FLASH, to go with the Full AreaP Setup?

This gives you a quality pro set up with the bigger pipes, and a flash tailored for it?

Why then isn't this Nirvana, here on Planet Earth?

For those with the money and the desire?

I'm waiting for the new "Evo" Flash, to go with my simple stock system and a 18" Delkevic slip on with the baffle removed!
 

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seagiant1 said:
Hi,
        Ok, tell me this?

Admittedly I'm ignorant!

My understanding is, Steve has made a FLASH, to go with the Full AreaP Setup?

This gives you a quality pro set up with the bigger pipes, and a flash tailored for it?

Why then isn't this Nirvana, here on Planet Earth?

For those with the money and the desire?

I'm waiting for the new "Evo" Flash, to go with my simple stock system and a 18" Delkevic slip on with the baffle removed!

Are you in Fl right now? If so, have you noticed the past few days have been perfect! Perfect for tuning, that is... SAE correction factor today... 1.006 ... the real world isn't going to get much better, and I just finished my last run for evo flash fueling about an hour ago  ;)  Steve
 
Steve in Sunny Fla said:
Are you in Fl right now? If so, have you noticed the past few days have been perfect! Perfect for tuning, that is... SAE correction factor today... 1.006 ... the real world isn't going to get much better, and I just finished my last run for evo flash fueling about an hour ago  ;)  Steve

Hi,
        Ha! Ha!

Sounds GREAT!

No, I'm working (out of State) and I know everyone is busy on the Holidays!

I'm glad now I waited on the "Evo"!

I'll call and check to see what your schedule is!!!

THANKS! :great:


 

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Is there no one out there that installed the ZX pipes on their Connie?

How about Full Area P guys?
C'mon, add to the discussion or kick holes in my idea.

Trying to learn and get others opinions..

Ride safe, Ted
 
Sort of off the subject, but I come in contact with a lot of Harley-Davidson bikes with straight pipes. Like at H.O.G. meetings, and at dealerships I visit in my travels.

I never argue with them about the value of a loud bike (there isn't one, its just noise, by the time they hear you its too late).

But I always point out that by reducing exhaust back pressure they are seriously hindering the engine's ability to make torque and horsepower. That only by increasing the flow of the intake ports, changing the cam timing, and altering the A/F ration will the open exhaust produce a positive result.

At which point you'd have a race engine, basically, with all the attendant problems.

They just shut up at that point.
 
connie_rider said:
Is there no one out there that installed the ZX pipes on their Connie?

How about Full Area P guys?
C'mon, add to the discussion or kick holes in my idea.

Trying to learn and get others opinions..

Ride safe, Ted

Ted , I put a zx header and muzzy cf duals on my '08 back in '10. What do you want to know and what is your end goal?
 
Ted , I put a zx header and muzzy cf duals on my '08 back in '10. What do you want to know and what is your end goal?
[/quote]

To grow hair on the palms of his hands...
 
Ahh, victims for me to question!!

JR, I agree with you to a point.
Your correct, an open exhaust can kill the torque.
I intend to keep 1 (Area P) muffler with the same ID as a ZG, to keep back pressure and reduce noise.

In properly designed header the exhaust flow is more efficient {in a specific RPM range}.
If this Header will work in the correct range,,, it will increase the flow of the intake ports, and alter the A/F ration {because of improved scavenging and proper control of the exhaust pulses}.
I'm hoping someone has information of past installs...

When you installed headers on your previous bikes, what was the result?

GPink/Cuda, what was the benefit or downfall of your ZX header installations?
  Did you do anything else to control AF ratio etc?
  What was the size of the Mid pipes?
  Did you remove a Catalytic Converter?
  Did you remove the flies?

End Goal. is EZ,,
  I want Power!! Lots and lots of POWER!!    Arr, arr, arr,,,,,,,,,  >:D
    But I want it to be controllable, and have good low/mid torque...
      ie: better than stock and a Full Area P.. But cheap!!
    And, I want to keep the idea's coming.
            Bekuz,,, I just like to discuss things...

Cuda, I already have hair on the palms of my hands.
            I want to grow some on top of my err slightly balding head..  :rotflmao:

Ride safe, Ted
 
Ted, 2007 zx14 headers (no cats) PC5 w/Autotune. Secondaries removed. Throttle cables adjusted and Throttle tamer installed. No downside. Extremely smooth. Never dyno'ed. At the time this was the only means to an end and I really like the dual setup. I'll see about OD pipe measurements this weekend.
 
Good info. Yes, please confirm the dimensions I have.
Extremely smooth and more powerful?
Did you happen to ride it without autotune and flies removed?

NOTE: Leaving in a few minutes to go hunting.
          Will be back next week.

Ride safe, Ted
 
Back from my hunt.
See no replies.

I was selected to test Steve's new Flash, so this project is on hold for a time.

All I have is an idea and a ZX-14R header. 
Would still like to hear from folks that have installed ZX-14 or Zx-14R headers.

Is this a waste of time?

Ride safe, Ted
 
Steve in Sunny Fla said:
Patrick, when looking on the dyno, the WOT #'s show the area p outpowering stock even by 4000 rpm. The soft feeling comes during light / part throttle, though I got most if not all of that back with tuning. the issues is the big exhaust doesn't have any back pressure, and in fact is evacuating the cylinder of some of it's fresh charge during light throttle operation. Such is the nature of "big" when it comes to engine tuning. Cams, overlap, intake, throttle bodies, Ex pipes... big is the bane of low rpm torque. the only "big" that helps low rpm torque is compression, and there's a very finite amount of that to be used before the pistons break. Steve


I see a SISF full Area P system flash with an EXUP churning in your head!!! If you build it--they will come!! :motonoises:
 
Like I said before I used a 08 header , smaller diameter pipe that the newer 14r

Yes I could feel more power but how much ... who knows because it has never made it to a Dyno!

I rather have low end torque than 8 to 10,000 rpm hp. where the bigger pipes  of the 14r will shine , while the lower #s should be mine :)

If Steve wants to dyno my bike Great , You get that 14r remove the cats and then we'll know :beerchug:
 
Throttle 8:
I'm too poor for a full Area p system. (But how did you know I looked at Exup?)  :??:
I suspect,, great minds think alike!!

Cuda, Dueling Headers at Steve's?
  Nice plan! (We'll have to wait and see if he decides to do a comparo test someday).

NOTE: Being one of the lucky Beta testers, Tomorrow,,, I'm sending my ECU to Steve so he can install his new Evolution Flash.
          Which means; there won't be any changes to my exhaust system until I report on it. (And ride it awhile, so others can see it)

Until then, lets keep the talks going.
I enjoy comparing idea's...

Ride safe, Ted
 
Thanks Egodriver, I already bought one.
But,, It's setting in my garage for now, {as I just added Steve's new flash and want to ride with it for a time before doing changes}.

If someone else is interested in trying this,,, can they contact you?

PS: Which year ZX-14R do you have?
      Just realized, you sed Complete System. Do you have the stock mufflers?

Ride safe, Ted
 
Throttle 8 said:
I see a SISF full Area P system flash with an EXUP churning in your head!!! If you build it--they will come!! :motonoises:

Throttle 8

Throttle 8, your an evil man. >:D
Ever since you mentioned this, I've been thinking about it.
Instead of using 1 muffler (right side), I'm considering a EXUP that would keep a left muffler closed until I open the throttle to 75+% throttle.    Beginning to think I know a way to do it.

I knows it's wild and crazy, and might not do a thing.
But it's fun to see if I can figure out a way to make it operate.

Any other Mad inventors out there?
Idea's??

Ride safe, Ted

PS: I currently have Steve's Evo Flash and I love it!
      I don't plan to install the ZX header for some time as I'm going to ride with the EVO for awhile..
 
      Until I do the install, I playing with idea's on how to accomplish this..
      Hoping someone has an idea..
 
Good find Pope!
  RPM controlled vs throttle positon controlled would definitely be a better way to go!

At this stage, I'm primarily trying to work out a way to make it operate.
    (so I can see if the valve opening, actually effects anything).
    Hopes being that 1 muffler will maintain ZG low/mid torque, and 2 mufflers ZX (like) top end power.

Initial thought being a (cheap) micro switch on the throttle linkage.
  (With electric solenoid or EXUP motor to move a butterfly valve).

If it shows promise, I'll use something like your find to more accurately control things..

Currently; I've been trying to find a butterfly valve to fit the 2" mid pipe?
                I think a EXUP Valve from a 2014 V Strom might be what I need.
                Can't find one. (yet)

Ride safe, Ted



 
Ok, so, with all this engineered thought in process what is the viability to swap the c14 engine for a ZX14 engine?  May be a silly ? and expensive but have wondered if its even possible. Sorry if this is way off topic but I had to ask.. :motonoises:
 
Don't know the answer, but to start with, a person would have to put the ZX motor (crank/rods/pistons/cylinders/head/cams/exhaust/throttle bodies/etc) on a ZG Tranny...

Ride safe, Ted
 
connie_rider said:
Don't know the answer, but to start with, a person would have to put the ZX motor (crank/rods/pistons/cylinders/head/cams/exhaust/throttle bodies/etc) on a ZG Tranny...

Ride safe, Ted

If momma Kaw does things like she always has the shaft drive primary drive should be swappable with the chain drive assembly housing. 
 
connie_rider said:
Good find Pope!
  RPM controlled vs throttle positon controlled would definitely be a better way to go!

  I disagree. And this is with all the experience I have on this bikes tuning. Think about it. Steve
 
Thinking about it..  :smiley_confused1:

What-iff we: Use both in series? 
  Use a micro switch on the throttle linkage {to initiate circuit}.
  Use a RPM switch in the circuit {to postpone Valve opening until "X" RPM is passed}.

For discussion, lets use WOT as Initiate value, and 7000 RPM as "X" RPM.


Here's our Rider;  :motonoises:

*Cruising: {Need smooth continuous torque}
        Rider uses moderate throttle, never opening to WOT or high RPM's.
        Valve will remain closed...

* Accell out of a curve: {Need smooth torque}
        Rider gives the throttle a twist but not WOT.
        Valve will remain closed, regardless of RPM...

* High gear Roll On: {Need torque to move the bike, Reduced back pressure as RPM increases}
        Rider gives the throttle a full {WOT} twist but initial RPM's are low.         
        Circuit will initiate but valve will remain closed, until 7000 RPM is reached...

*Banzai Blast thru the gears: {Need initial torque to move the bike, and maintain Reduced back pressure as RPM will remain high}
        Rider gives the throttle a full twist in a low gear and RPM's rise quickly!
          Circuit will be initiate at WOT and valve will open almost immediately, as 7000 RPM will come quickly!!
      "as he grabs each gear" "Our Hero" chops the throttle, shifts, and returns to WOT.
          Valve will try to close as throttle drops below WOT, and then re-open at WOT and 7000 RPM... {Could cause valve flutter}.
            {If I can figure out how to wire it,,, the exhaust valve would be Motor controlled, which move's semi-slowly,
                  because of the slow movement, the valve should cycle a few degrees, not flutter}

Thoughts?

Ride safe, Ted
 
PS: Before any of this is built, we would need to prove that there is a difference in power between the use of 1 and 2 mufflers on a ZX-14 exhaust system.

ie;  Dyno pull with 2 mufflers installed.
      Dyno pull with 1 Muffler blocked off.

If there is a difference,,,, then the idea's on how to built it,,,, will become important.

Fer now; we're just talking "What-Iff's" and trying to find inexpensive {"Cheap"} ways to do it..


Another PS: My (cheap $11.00) EXUP Motor and cables just arrived in the Mail... yahoooooooooo  :great:
                  I'll use it to figure out how to use the 5 wires to operate the motor.  Idea's??

                  On EXUP systems, the motor is connected to the Exhaust valve by 2 cables.
                  I now need to find a 2" exhaust valve inside of a section of tubing. (Photo below)
                      A similar valve is in a 2014 V-Strom {DL-1000} or a Yamaha WR250R exhaust pipe.
                        Haven't found one to buy yet {cheap}..  Suggestions??

Ride safe, Ted

This is EXUP theory of operation and "photo" of what I need.
http://www.skutr.net/exhaust-valves-and-servo-motors-explained/

Yamaha WR250R EXUP valve operating..
https://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?fr=yfp-t&p=exup+valve+operation#id=2&vid=f6fbaff7837d7564325d2b993ab654a4&action=view

 
Ted,
You asked, here is what I am thinking. To me it looks like a lot of work for less power than can easily be had by an Area P. I think the way to go would be to start with a larger diameter, (single or duals), system and then try flow control for more low and midrange gains.
Let me clarify a bit. 
The ZX has a decent and in some versions, slightly larger primary tube header a 2 inch pipe setup feeding 2 2 inch mid pipes and mufflers right?  Blocking one of those off might get you a little bit on the bottom, a BIG might. Since Kawasaki probably sized the exhaust properly to work with the duals it seems like building a ladder to drill for oil! I would think that you would want to start with a larger diameter pipe and then throttle the gasses back using a valve setup to keep the bottom and expand the mid and the top. I know it will in all likelihood work a little differently in concert with VVT and a "detuned" motor but the basics don't change from motor to motor. Also, There would definitely have to be a redesigned split section so as to not to adversely affect exhaust flow since you can't just "block off" one of the duals without causing some flow changes that are most likely quite undesirable.
Maybe I'm way off here?
Matt
 
The ZX14r is a stroker version of our motor,  with more compression , bigger throttle body's hence the need for bigger pipes, plus they spin 1,000 more RPMs

When I drive around town I don't spin the motor past 8,000 rpms. 
 
Matt, thanks for your reply.
Your correct, I asked for it, and I do appreciate it, and I'd like more of your input..
Your also right. It would be easier to just install a Full System Area P.
All someone needs is $1000+ for the system,  $375 for the Flash, and a few hours work. {Approx. $1400.00)

This all started when I realized several have installed ZX-14 exhausts on their bikes and claim increased power..
Being cheap, I thought, mebbe a ZX-14R will do almost the same thing as a Full Area P system..

Others removed Catalytic Converters from their ZG or ZX exhausts and claim increased power.
I discovered that a 2013 ZX-14R header has No converter.. {and their cheap}

So, I decided to see if a ZX system would work to increase top HP, and also try to find a way to keep the ZG low end torque.

So far, I bought a 2013 ZX-14R header to tinker with. (for $30) and a ZX-10 EXUP motor (for $11.00)  {Total spent; $41.00} 
            {I already have Steve's Evo Flash and an Area P slip on}

Recently, I discovered that my Area P mid pipe and slip on will fit the right side of the ZX exhaust.
So I thought I'd just run the right pipe, and plug the left pipe.

And then, "AND THEN" :-[,,, I re-read throttle 8's note, and I thought,,,, hmmm, mebbe I could figure out how to do what he suggested.
Bottom line; That rotten Devil "Throttle 8" caused all this thinkin'...  :mad:

NOTE: I can't calculate flow, but (for comparison) I calculated square area of the different mid pipes.
          Stock ZG; mid pipe diameter is 2" (Square area is 3.1 Square inches)
          Full Area P; mid pipe diameter is 2 1/4". (Square area is 3.9 Square inches)
          Stock ZX-14; mid pipe diameter is 2" {x2} (Square area {1 side only} is 3.1 Square inches. {x2} is 6.2 Square Inches)

Note; a ZX-14R exhaust system has very similar dimensions to a Full Area P system, but the ZX has the potential
          to flow 60% more. {3.9 vs 6.2 Square inches}
          So I thought,, hmmm, mebbe I should control that.

Ride safe, Ted

 
gpink, good question. I think; their removing the EXUP systems because they want the most HP they can get out of their engine.
                                            their not concerned with what they might be doing to low end and mid range torque.
         
I want to try it because; I'm trying to {cheaply} increase top end power, without loosing low/mid range torque.
                                    and, I'm retired, bored, and looking for something to tinker with. {but, I'm cheap}

Ride safe, Ted

 
connie_rider said:
Matt, thanks for your reply.
Your correct, I asked for it, and I do appreciate it, and I'd like more of your input..
Your also right. It would be easier to just install a Full System Area P.
All someone needs is $1000+ for the system,  $375 for the Flash, and a few hours work. {Approx. $1400.00)

This all started when I realized several have installed ZX-14 exhausts on their bikes and claim increased power..
Being cheap, I thought, mebbe a ZX-14R will do almost the same thing as a Full Area P system..

Others removed Catalytic Converters from their ZG or ZX exhausts and claim increased power.
I discovered that a 2013 ZX-14R header has No converter.. {and their cheap}

So, I decided to see if a ZX system would work to increase top HP, and also try to find a way to keep the ZG low end torque.

So far, I bought a 2013 ZX-14R header to tinker with. (for $30) and a ZX-10 EXUP motor (for $11.00)  {Total spent; $41.00} 
            {I already have Steve's Evo Flash and an Area P slip on}

Recently, I discovered that my Area P mid pipe and slip on will fit the right side of the ZX exhaust.
So I thought I'd just run the right pipe, and plug the left pipe.

And then, "AND THEN" :-[,,, I re-read throttle 8's note, and I thought,,,, hmmm, mebbe I could figure out how to do what he suggested.
]Bottom line; That rotten Devil "Throttle 8" caused all this thinkin'NOTE:
I can't calculate flow, but (for comparison) I calculated square area of the different mid pipes.
          Stock ZG; mid pipe diameter is 2" (Square area is 3.1 Square inches)
          Full Area P; mid pipe diameter is 2 1/4". (Square area is 3.9 Square inches)
          Stock ZX-14; mid pipe diameter is 2" {x2} (Square area {1 side only} is 3.1 Square inches. {x2} is 6.2 Square Inches)

Note; a ZX-14R exhaust system has very similar dimensions to a Full Area P system, but the ZX has the potential
          to flow 60% more. {3.9 vs 6.2 Square inches}
          So I thought,, hmmm, mebbe I should control that.

Ride safe, Ted

You're Welcome! LOL!
With my mad mind control, I am thinking of changing my Handle to LORD VADER. lol!
 
Steve, "Great" video and perfect timing!  :great:
From now on, Throttle8 will be known as "Snake" NOT Lord Vader..
Take that Throttle8 "Snake",,, ya rotten Devil!  :nananana:

Matt, I owe you 2 more,, "Your Rights".
    * Total flow should be controlled exactly as your saying.
    * Restricting or varying flow on 1 side will probably cause turbulence/problems.

But, I don't know how to "control" total flow. <gloom>
  So, I'm thinking to restrict the left pipe "and" find a way to vary that restriction with a Exhaust/butterfly valve.
      NOTE: The Exhaust Valve may never open more than 20%.

Bottom line, the right pipe would be open and most flow will pass thru it.
                  Left pipe would be a variable pressure relief.

PS: I opened my EXUP Motor last night.
        Learned which 2 wires control motor movement.
        Think the remaining 3 wires send position signals to the ECU and it "controls" the movement.

So, I now know how to make the EXUP motor operate, but have no idea how to "control" that movement:mad:

Luckily, Throttle8 "Snake" is here, and will now explain how to "control" everything??  >:D

Ride safe, Ted
 
a little old school, I used these 15+ years ago to shut off a/c compressors when a hard load was applied. Vacuum operated and micro adjustable, you can use it to break a ground contact on a relay, etc. Set it for almost zero vacuum and you can get it to kick in for WOT or slighly less. Of course using electronics may be better, but I have concerns about messing up the voltages if additional resistance is applied.

http://www.worldmagnetics.com/
 
Thanks Steve.
I had to set and think about the magnetic/vacuum switch for awhile.
Your correct. It would be another (maybe better) way to tell the valve when to open / close.
With this, we now have several ways to tell the system it's time to open / close.
(For sake of discussion, we can call these "Initiate Switches" (IS). (They could initiate the motor movement)

The "control" problem I'm struggling with is,, controlling the amount and direction a motor moves the valve.
ie; at WOT and X RPM, the (IS) switch turns on, power is supplied and the motor starts rotating (to open the valve).
Simple,,

But here is the control problem; {Still at WOT}
    After the valve reaches it's open point,,, how do we cut the power to the motor and hold the valve open,
        or
  {after Closing the throttle} How do we reverse the polarity of the 2 wires, to make the motor run the opposite direction,
        and then cut the power to make it stop rotating?

I'm beginning to think it best to use a solenoid (instead of a motor) to open the valve and a spring to close it.
  WOT throttle and x RPM; the (IS) switch would complete a circuit and the electric solenoid would open and hold
        the valve open {to a stop point}. (We could pre-adjust that stop point to wherever we want it.)
  Close the Throttle; the (IS) switch would break the circuit and the spring would close the valve.

Ride safe, Ted
 
LOL! Good video Steve!  ;D

I will let you ECU/electronic guru's figure out how to get it to run; meanwhile I will be studying the above video, and the Star Wars "not the droids you are looking for clip" to hone my skills so I will be able to command free beer at the Nationals this summer! :nananana: :beerchug:
 
"Throttle8" if we were electronic Guru's,,, we'd already have this wiring figured out!
Speaking for me, I'm obviously simple minded, and easily swayed by "Snakes"...  :mad:

Now, will someone please find me a 2" butterfly valve I can use?  >:D

Ride safe, Ted
 
Ted,
  Speaking of old school have you considered vacuum activation of the butterfly like the secondary butterflies on an old Holley or Quadrajet carburetor? 
 
Personally if it were me I think I'd rig a stepper motor to emulate the secondary throttle plate stepper. Glad it's not me.  :nananana:

  and Jim you're right, old school for sure! I think that's how the first exups worked, of course it needs to be connected by cable so heat doesn't get to the diaphram.

steve
 
Steve in Sunny Fla said:
Personally if it were me I think I'd rig a stepper motor to emulate the secondary throttle plate stepper. Glad it's not me.  :nananana:

  and Jim you're right, old school for sure! I think that's how the first exups worked, of course it needs to be connected by cable so heat doesn't get to the diaphram.

steve

That could be done pretty easy with a longer rod on the vacuum diaphragm assembly to keep it away from the hot pipes. 
 

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I think I would have the same problem with a stepper motor.
  I don't have an ECU to control when it opens or closes.
  And I don't know how to wire a system to run and then reverse the motor. (To open and close the valve)

As far as vacuum to open, this has to open when the bike is at WOT and high RPM's.
I think I would need secondary (ported) vacuum?
(Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the vacuum diaphragm on a 4 barrel carb is connected to secondary/ported vacuum?

Biggest problem with vacuum though, is we don't want this to move at WOT and low RPM's..
Want it to "only" open at WOT and high RPM's...

Ride safe, Ted
 
connie_rider said:
As far as vacuum to open, this has to open when the bike is at WOT and high RPM's.
I think I would need secondary (ported) vacuum?
(Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the vacuum diaphragm on a 4 barrel carb is connected to secondary/ported vacuum?

Biggest problem with vacuum though, is we don't want this to move at WOT and low RPM's..
Want it to "only" open at WOT and high RPM's...

Ride safe, Ted

Steve is correct, you would want manifold vacuum. And to keep the door from opening at lower RPM's a spring to keep tension
on the flapper would solve that problem. But figuring out how strong a spring would be the only issue. Just sayin,
 
If I were to use a vacuum diaphragm to open the valve, I need the vacuum to increase when I open the throttle.
I do not want the valve to open at idle...
Definition from Internet; See below.

A) Full vac (Manifold vacuum) port is where the port/nipple is below the throttle blade.   
        You have full vac on these ports at idle and as you floor the throttle the vac goes away.

B) Timed or (ported vac) ports are above the throttle blades and
        has no vac on it at idle but as you throttle up, it draws a vacuum.

However, which vacuum source should be used; {Manifold or Ported} isn't important.
  Because, vacuum won't work for what I want. Not enough control.
      ie; It wouldn't open the valve "only" at WOT and high RPM.



Ride safe, Ted
 
So you would need a vacuum cruise control mechanism tied to the TPS to operate exup valve to open at wot?
 
Ok then your best bet is a micro switch operating off of the throttle with an electric selenoid or servo Motor. The solenoid would give you and instant opening at WOT. The motor probably a slower actuation. Other than that this is getting way over my head. Reading all of this technical stuff is making my head hurt. I need a drink.
 
So you would need a vacuum cruise control mechanism tied to the TPS to operate exup valve to open at wot?
    I'm not sure exactly how a vacuum cruise control mechanism functions, but I think you may be close...

Ok then your best bet is a micro switch operating off of the throttle with an electric solenoid.
  That's what I think is the best option we've discussed.
  (but add a RPM switch or Magnetic vacuum switch to the circuit (in series with the micro switch) to ensure it only opens at high RPM's).

NOTE: NONE of this maters if the dyno runs show no difference in power on 1 muffler vs 2 muffler comparisons.
            Until then, we're just throwing idea's up against the wall to see what sticks...  :great:

Ride safe, Ted

PS: Jim, my head hurts too. I think I may join you in that drink.  :beerchug:
 
Steve in Sunny Fla said:
Personally if it were me I think I'd rig a stepper motor to emulate the secondary throttle plate stepper. Glad it's not me.  :nananana:

  and Jim you're right, old school for sure! I think that's how the first exups worked, of course it needs to be connected by cable so heat doesn't get to the diaphram.

steve

My thinking exactly Steve. I figure the simplest way would be to do it the same as they did for the FZR 1000's of the early 90's.
Now back to my Jedi Mind beer trick study! :beerchug:
 
Ya'll obviously know more about a Stepper Motor than I.
  "I know nothiiiiiinnnnggggggg..  (Sgt. Shultz imitation)  :a102:

Care to explain to this Rookie?  And, where/how was a Stepper Motor used on a FZR-1000?

Talked to Rev last night.
He basically confirmed that a wiring harness to control a EXUP motor is too complicated to build.

{Using the K.I.S.S. Principal}, he suggested building the Exhaust Valve with only a spring on it. (no electronic control)
If the right spring could be found, the valve would open only at WOT and high RPM..
Now, why didn't I think of that?  :-[

Ride safe, Ted
 
Thank's Gpink! 
A 'Variable Back-Pressure Exhaust' {VB-PE} is exactly what I've been trying to develop in my feeble mind.
That was the final piece of info I needed to understand the function.
"And", it gave me the info I needed to develop Rev's idea. <evil grin>

I "think" I know how to build it now...
"If" I can figure it out, it will have;
                        All mechanical components.
                        No wiring, no switches.
                        Installation will only require 1 small mod to my ZX-14R exhaust.
                        If it doesn't work, the VB-PE can be removed and the ZX-14 exhaust returned to it's original flow...

To the drawing board!!!!!

Ride safe, Ted

PS: I now BADLY need a 2" dia Butterfly valve and shaft.
      No body / external housing needed.
 
If you go the spring route there are a variety of carburetor return springs available that might fit the bill.
 
Sketches done.
Rough dimensions determined.
Looks "do-able".......  :great:

Did I mention?
  I now BADLY need a 2" dia Butterfly valve and shaft.
      No body / external housing needed.

I'm planning to use "several" light weight spring's {very similar to the Carb return springs Jim mentioned}.

Ride safe, Ted
 
connie_rider said:
Sketches done.
Rough dimensions determined.
Looks "do-able".......  :great:

Did I mention?
  I now BADLY need a 2" dia Butterfly valve and shaft.
      No body / external housing needed.

I'm planning to use "several" light weight spring's {very similar to the Carb return springs Jim mentioned}.

Ride safe, Ted

Yo Ted, you can find those carb return Springs at most auto parts stores. If I remember correctly many of them are two stage or rather have an inner and outer spring together.
 
Ted,
I wasn't referring to buying an Area P to start with. I was only saying start with a larger mid pipe diameter and throttle back the flow to increase the low end. That way you "get it all" as it were. Changing only the collector assembly and replacing with a larger diameter might be just what the doctor ordered.  The trick is going to come in making the exhaust flow smoothly without disrupting the scavenging effects needed for max power and torque!  Maybe??
Matt
 
Ok, I thought you were saying don't waste my time. Buy the Area P and be done.

I think I follow your explanation, and I think the ZX-14R header does most of what your describing.
[Geez we need to talk.... This is hard to describe with a keyboard]
Look at photo's to see details.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/12-15-KAWASAKI-NINJA-ZX14-ZX14R-EXHAUST-HEADERS-OEM/152112234050?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140602152332%26meid%3D98b0ed274be44d698651d715fa5fe7cc%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D7%26sd%3D111820733387

This header has; Larger head pipes than a ZG,
                        same flange size as a Full Area P system with similar head pipe expansion. {but largest dia. is 1 mm smaller}
NOTE: The pipes between the head pipes are braces only. NOT pressure balance passages.

The 4 head pipes "Y" into 2 passages before entering the collector.

Collector; Is initially large, necks down, then expands again.
                  {like a venturi} which might help scavenging.
              {Has no Cat. plus it has a smoother exit port design than the 2007 Header}
              Has a plate down the center isolating the left from right.
                That plate converts the sides of the collector into 2 runners that are 9' long.
                {I think this plate effectively changes the header from a typical 4 into 1 /collector design to Tri Y type design}
              Those 2 runners merge into an open chamber at the back.

From that chamber the exhaust exits thru 2  (2" dia. / 3.1 Square inches) mid pipes.
  The 2 mid pipes (6.2 total square inches) are the thing that don't match your scenario.
        I think they have to much flow...

So, I intially decided to block 1 off...
          But, I agree; just blocking off 1 port will cause turbulence/etc issues..

Next, I planned to remove the left port, bend the tail of the inner plate to direct flow to the right, and also mod the rear housing to direct flow in that direction.    {NOTE: I may still do this}.

And then,, "and THEN",,,,,, I read Throttle8's "Snake's" note.  :41:
    Immediately, my eyes crossed, everything got fuzzy, and my brain started spinning..
            I think I HATE him...

I thought; maybe a dump valve (adjusted to open slightly) would increase flow, and relieve pressure at WOT.        .
      So,,  I started this discussion to get others thoughts.

Most seem to think; it won't work.
                              Can't be built.
                                Total waste of time...

Which REALLY make's we want to try...  >:D

Ride safe, Ted
 
Did I mention?  I still need a 2" dia Butterfly valve and shaft.     
Have lathe to build my own Housing, shaft, butterfly plate.
But, don't have a mill to do mounting details.
So easiest option is to start with an existing 2" dia Butterfly valve and shaft.

Does anyone have one????

Considered an Automotive Exhaust manifold/ Heat Riser valve, but would be more difficult..

Ride safe, Ted
 
Ted put the mouse down and step away from the keyboard..... :truce:

Try to calm yourself....  :rotflmao:
 

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gPink said:
Ted put the mouse down and step away from the keyboard..... :truce:
Try to calm yourself....  :rotflmao:

I'm truuyyyyiinnggg........  {sniff}  :'(

This is the closest I've found to what I want.
It's Stainless steel, Vacuum or boost operated.
But too big. {2 1/2"},  and 2 expensive to modify. {ie; buy and cut to pieces)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/63mm-Close-Style-Vacuum-Activated-Exhaust-Cutout-Dump-Valve-Pressure-about-1-Bar-/201739320476?hash=item2ef899bc9c:g:H0wAAOSw4GVYRRsi&vxp=mtr

Ride safe, Ted
 
Jim Snyder may have found a source for the valve I need.
    The company he found makes the valves out of SS.
    Some have bearings on the pivot shafts to reduce friction.
    They also build automotive race exhaust's {with valves built in} for tuning/pressure relief.
            hmm, "who'd a thought", adding a valve in the exhaust to adjust back pressure...

Unfortunately, that company is in China...  :mad:

Ride safe, Ted

 
connie_rider said:
Jim Snyder may have found a source for the valve I need.
    The company he found makes the valves out of SS.
    Some have bearings on the pivot shafts to reduce friction.
    They also build automotive race exhaust's {with valves built in} for tuning/pressure relief.
            hmm, "who'd a thought", a valve in the exhaust to adjust back pressure...

Unfortunately, that company is in China...  :mad:

Ride safe, Ted

In my best Elvis Presley voice, "Thank ya, thank ya very much". That's why I am the exhaust guru guy. I just hope this project doesn't take you as long
as my 4 into 1 header project did. I still have a pile of leftovers from that project. The struggle is real my brother !!!
 

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I was sniffin' around the webz, doing some "research" and stumbled upon this, from AreaP

          "  quote:...I'm slightly off-topic here, but what are the chances of an 4-2 AreaP with left-side hanger for the C14 and all of the access features of the 4-2-1?



        Wormie - There is no chance. Sorry.....



    ...thanks for the reply, Kerry...is it no chance at all or no chance right now?...if its no chance at all, can you divulge why there's no chance?...is it because of the physical limitations of the underside that'll compromise accessibility, performance, and aesthetics?....or is it the limited market?....or is it the prohibited expense?...or????

    ...I respectfully ask these questions because there are owners and potential owners out there who desire the aesthetics of a 4-2 for the C14...the lines of the bike beg for it imho...the bike has enough stock hp/tq for some folks like me....I'd be happy with the weight-savings alone of a properly desined aftermarket 4-2...I wished Kawasaki had designed it from the begining to be a 4-2...then I'd just buy your sexy slip-ons...

    ...that being said, I'm glad there are folks like you and your son who are willing to make and actually produce a better performing, lighter weight, and less expensive exhaust system for the the C14 than the factory's heavier and expensive exhaust system ...



Well if it's for you, I could always do a "one-off".... And hey, thank you for the comments.

Before answering, please note - I'm not comparing our system to Muzzy's 4-2. I have nothing but the utmost respect for Rob and have known him since the stone-age. I believe he designed a very well thought out, great looking product for the crowd that desires a dual muffler system. And there are plenty of you out there.

Anyway, reason(s) being; performance, weight, sound, price. "Aesthetics" will always be in the eye of the beholder. Performance - a 4-2 simply will not put out the power and/or overall powerband of a properly designed, merge collector 4-2-1. Although a 4-2-1-2 may work decent, but still not as good. And then you got to get all that mess to fit the bike.... It can be more difficult to map correctly because the left side collector/mid-pipe area is design compromised to get around the drive housing, side stand, and/or centerstand arm. Obviously it will weigh significantly more as well as potentially putting out more heat. The exhaust tone will of course be "different", mostly not as "smooth" sounding.


The R&D goal of this project was performance, weight savings, convenience feature(s) retention, and the highest quality at an affordable price point. That's what we're all about. And that's what you will get from Area P"

  Seemed germaine to this discussion. Steve
 
Very good article Steve. I guess its fair to say that sometimes exhaust and performance research really is rocket science.
 
after reading this all, and reflecting back to the laments of the "original" C10, when people were so wanting a single sided exhaust because the dual mufflers were both gaudy, and didn't sound good... I think back... Jim actually sent me one of his fabricated pipes that didn't fit under the plastic, which I had no problem with as I was developing the COGZIlla bike, without plastic... I also have an Ontario header, still unscathed and un used, for fitment onto my C10. I ended up years ago finding a set of SuperTrapp, dueal mufflers, that fit a Zee bike, and fit them up to my C10... they were Louad when the correct amount of "venting discs" were utilized to allow a flow that I found worked.., but still had that "dub-dub..dub-dub" sound I loathed from a dual exhaust bike... I always wanted a single muffler that would flow correctly, and provide a "buh-buh-buh-buh" sound, smoothly, and evenly... again, Jim sent me a nice offcast muffler he had sitting around, which still is in a box.. and will find its way onto COGZilla this year.. all this searching and such, for performance, has me still asking, why... WHY.. did Kaw go to a single muffler system on the C14? IMHO it was evident for torque purposes, and also plausable sound, nice but not annoying.

all the aftermarket slip ons, are nothing more than a muffler they already made, for a prior production bike, ( based on another production bike prior, and prior to that bike), and they tossed it out with adapters and said..."for the C14"..

none of these muffler manufacturers spent one second to manufacture a specific pipe, TUNED to the exhaust produced by the specific bike...
they just re-branded an existing universal piece of hardware, and "called it specific"

My hat is off to Jim, he really did spend a lot of time trying to adapt, and find something to "use" as a replacement for the old C10, but in essence, we all have to experiment, and make the best of it.
C14?
open the door for going backwards, and putting duals on.. we all biotched for 20+ years we couldn't get a decent single pipe.

go figure. :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
 
MAN OF BLUES said:
 
My hat is off to Jim, he really did spend a lot of time trying to adapt, and find something to "use" as a replacement for the old C10, but in essence, we all have to experiment, and make the best of it.
:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

Thank you MOB, It really was a labor of love (NOT) cutting and welding all of those pipe pieces and then scraping it and starting over.
and I still have a huge collection of header pieces cluttering my shop. The final prototype of the Contario exhaust is still on my silverbullet. I had it ceramic coated to make it last and it still looks and works great. But like you said experimentation is the key to any successful endeavor. And like I always told folks, don't tell me they "don't make one of those for your bike" cause that just makes me want to make one.
 
 
Ok time for a little reflection. We have to remember that tuning any motorcycle is never a one and done process. And many times
we take simple processes and turn them into difficult ones. You always have to remember that a motorcycle engine is what I like to
call an "air management system". Truthfully that is it in a nut shell. Of course there are other factors involved, fuel, heat, etc. but
we are talking about managing the flow of air through the engine from the air filter intake to the end of the muffler. The more efficiently that air moves through that engine the faster it will go, the more miles per gallon it will get, or the more torque or horsepower it will have. Sometimes we go off the beaten path and find things that work. Take Steve's two minute mod from several years ago. The idea he came up with went against every previously accepted theory of jetting we engine gurus were ever taught. But what happened? I'll tell you what happened it worked. I had a nickname for Steve's 2 min.mod, I called it C.A.M.S. (controlled airflow management system) Pretty catchy huh. Rather than forcing as much air into the engine as possible he controlled the flow and amount of air and made it work better than before. He is doing the same thing now with the C-14 ECU. The engineers at Kawasaki don't always get it right, atleast to our satisfaction that is. But there will always be those of us who push the envelope to see if we can build a better mouse trap. And sometimes the mouse is smarter than we are. But we still have to try right.     
 
Thanks all.    "Good discussion"
Steve, that is very interesting info!
MOB, I also prefer a single muffler sound.
Jim, you sed it all...

My original thought was block off one of the exhaust ports, and install a ZX-14R header on my Connie..
But, I thought,,, hmm,, I wonder why did Kawasaki and Suzuki both choose to put 2 mufflers on their biggest Sport Bikes?

And then, (while I wus thinkin') that "rotten' "Throttle8 sed;
  I see a SISF full Area P system flash with an EXUP churning in your head!!! If you build it--they will come!!
Followed by (an even more rotten) "Gpink", who sed;
    Ted, an interesting writeup....scroll down to the last section titled 'Variable Back-Pressure Exhaust'.

Which brings us to today.  :coffee2::smiley_confused1:

Ride safe, Ted
 
Ok, another day, more thoughts.  :-[

Steve, MOB and Jim kinda made my point with their posts..
  (before you argue; Think about it)

This discussion is about using a ZX-14R exhaust on a C-14.
The ZX-14R exhaust has 2 mufflers..
    (Some like 2 mufflers, some prefer only 1)

If you choose to use the ZX-14R exhaust and use only 1 muffler.
To do this;
    You can; plug 1 exhaust port.
    You can; remove 1 exhaust port and modify that area to smooth the flow to the right muffler.
      (NOTE: If you do either of these, you "might" be restricting the ZX-14R exhaust too much to allow Max HP.)
"or" You can; install a SS valve (see below) and modify that valve to act as a 'Variable Back-Pressure Exhaust Valve'.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Vacuum-Activated-Exhaust-Cutout-2-51MM-Close-Style-Pressure-about-1-BAR-/252699476181?hash=item3ad61000d5:g:zcsAAOSwux5YM-RB&vxp=mtr
To do this you must do a valve modification;
      Valve modification; * remove vacuum mechanism, and replace it with springs. (to hold the valve closed)
                                  * Select springs which will allow valve to open "only" at WOT and high RPM.
                                  * Add an Adjustable/Mechanical stop to limit how far valve opens. (mebbe 20%)


NOTE: If the 'Variable Back-Pressure Exhaust Valve' idea works(?)
        You can; (if you choose) install the second muffler behind the valve for looks/sound control.
        You can: allow the {20% opening} valve to exhaust out a short pipe under the bike.
                      {Sound control might be possible)

Thoughts??
        Let the flames begin!!!

Ride safe, Ted

PS: I fergot to say; (Matt's idea {I think})
If you choose to use the ZX-14R exhaust and use only 1 muffler.
    You can also; remove 1 exhaust port and modify that area to smooth the flow to the right muffler,
          "and/or" increase the diameter of the right port to give you more flow capability.
   
 
Ok here is my thought. The ZX-14 pipe is larger than the C-14. Therefore theoretically it will have more flow than the C-14 pipe. With that in mind there would have to be enough excess flow and back pressure to open said relief valve at WOT. So with a larger header with increased flow characteristics as the ZX-14 pipe has the question is how to determine if there will be enough excess flow. I would hate to see you go through all of this and discover that the ZX pipe flowed so well out the right side thst it would not allow the valve to open. This is just a theory of course. Next.
Forgot to add that this would be even more relative with aftermarket mufflers which flow more freely than stockers.
 
Jim, good point's!
      {Particularly about the different Mufflers}    :017:  hmmmmmmm  :sign0137:

I think it's relatively EZ to determine the effects.
  If someone that already has a ZX-14R system would ride to Steve's err someone's place where a dyno is located, and convince that person to do a few dyno runs.
  I'll supply a Port Plug with pressure gage, and might be convinced to buy lunch {or a beer or 3}

Possible Test Sequence;
Run #1; Remove 1 {left} muffler, plug the port, conduct a run and do a plot.. (while observing pressure)
      #2; Partially restrict right muffler, conduct a repeat run, and do a plot.. (while observing pressure)
          NOTE: Run's #1 and #2 could be conducted by simply blocking the left muffler. (But pressure could not be recorded)
      #3; Reinstall left muffler, conduct a run and do a plot..
      #4; Partially restrict both mufflers,  conduct a repeat run, and do a plot..

After runs; compare plots; to see if Torque/HP were effected by changes.
                compare pressures to see if they increased when restriction was added.

NOTE:  "Change" in Torque/HP/pressure/{if available}AFR is all we need to see.
          Ultimate HP/torque/AFR values are unimportant at this time.
            If we see plot/pressure change, we will know that Torque/HP was effected by the changes.
                  {Hopefully, in the way I suspect}

Ride safe, Ted
 
Sorry guys. 
I was a research Tech for most of my career.
Part of that Career involved Dyno's and vehicle testing.

So when Jim asked, the question is how to determine if there will be enough excess flow. , my twisted mind spit out an answer.

Ride safe, Ted
 
Ok, another day, more thoughts.  :??::

First of all, the lack of replies seem to indicate,
Most think I'm out of my mind.
Lot's don't think it will work and not worth talking about.
Some, are thinking about it, and not getting involved.
Many don't have a clue what I'm talking about . (or care)

Is anybody out there????

Ride safe, Ted
 
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