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C10 to C14 rear shock question?

Mercer

Mercer

Guest
Guest
I have acquired a low mileage C14 shock with all the linkage and rocker. I have searched this site and others having mention of lowering links, but did not see anyone using C14 linkage/rocker. Is the rocker arm ratio going the wrong way to lower C10 with the C14 shock? Is there some other fitment issue? Would like to have some insight before disassembly. When adding a rocker to lower a C10 with a C14 shock, are you lengthening the rocker? The C14 rocker appears .5 inch or so shorter.
 
The C-14 rocker is a different design with different geometry than a C-10.

If you do the shock install on a stock rocker {I think} you will need to build a shoulder bolt or bushing to go thru the lower eye of the shock and drill the upper eye to a larger diameter.
(I'll try to find that info)

I recently added a C-14 shock to my 2003. To keep the seat height the same I added a Lowering Rocker.
Norm Soucy makes a 1 1/2" lowering rocker that makes the seat height the same as stock.
I think the cost is now $200 and the rocker comes with new seals and bearings..
Here is his up to date info:  sanleonster@gmail.com
                                          phone# (281) 339-1156

Another option is lowering links. I'm not sure what is available or if they will work.
I've been told that the adjustable (Soupy's) do not work with the center stand.
  I think you would need links that have the stock bend in them so that the center stand will work.

Here is a set I found. Looks to me like it will "not" work with the CS..
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Concours-1000-Lowering-Link-Links-Kit-Adjustable-1996-1997-1998-1999-2000-ZG1000/181719209978?hash=item2a4f4f17fa:g:gBwAAOSwxYxUs797

Ride safe, Ted
 
connie_rider said:
Another option is lowering links. I'm not sure what is available or if they will work.
I've been told that the adjustable (Soupy's) do not work with the center stand.
  I think you would need links that have the stock bend in them so that the center stand will work.

Here is a set I found. Looks to me like it will not work with the CS..
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Concours-1000-Lowering-Link-Links-Kit-Adjustable-1996-1997-1998-1999-2000-ZG1000/181719209978?hash=item2a4f4f17fa:g:gBwAAOSwxYxUs797

Ride safe, Ted
Click to expand...
The Spring on the C14 shock is too wide to use with Soupy's Adjustable Lowering Links.
Those links on e-bay look just like Soupy's....  I'm not very confident.
 
I didn't know Soucy made a dog bone??
To my knowledge, he only made Lowering Rocker's.

If you used a Link, are you sure it's not a Soupy's dog bone/Lowering Link?
If yes, does it work with the center stand?

Ride safe, Ted

oldsmoboat said:
I have Soucy's dogbone and a C14 shock on my 2004.
Click to expand...
 
Dogbone may have been the incorrect term.  Norm called it "lowering link".

Not my picture but this is what it looks like.  http://cog-online.org/clubportal/images/clubimages/1328/webpages/Techguide/loweringarm-01.jpg

I thought I had a whole thread on my shock replacement but I don't find it.  Did find this which talks about the necessary modifications.
http://forum.cog-online.org/tiressuspension-c10/rear-shock-58159

I had to grind down the crossbar on the center stand a little to get the center stand to work. 


 
leftrear.jpg
 
Ok, Oldsmoboat, that clears it up. You did the same as most of us and used a Lowering Rocker.
Your adjuster is installed in the same place I did mine.
Good point on grinding your crossbar. I had forgot about that.
I ground a bit off the end on the Rocker to clear the crossbar of my center stand.

Lee, all of the mods folks made will sound a little confusing to you right now.
With shock in hand, and looking at your bike, it will all make sense.
To me the most difficult part was getting the proper bushing for the lower eye.
  As I recall, I made mine from one of the original C-10 shock bolts.

Ride safe, Ted
 
Thanks all!

Pulling shocks soon to exchange. C14 rocker is short eye to eye in all directions on side by side comparison to C10 by about .5 inches. Will go with shim and drill out as others have done using stock rocker. Adjust ride height with lowering arms if needed. Plan to measure head stock change in degrees also as a curiosity.....
 
oldsmoboat said:
Might as well do emulators and springs in the front, too....
I mean, as long as your doing suspension.  :)
Click to expand...

Shear genius....  the end result is well worth it.
 
Well Sunday was the day. I have a parts C10. Used it to mock up C14 shock change over for bike I ride.

Bored C14 shock top bush. My C10 shock was offset to clutch lever side. I tried to duplicate this relationship by grinding more on that side of C14 shock for exact placement. In next final disassembly well take some more off as well.

Next using grease port as center, drilled C10 bushin/bolt to fit C14 shock bolt. The grease port was off center slightly to begin with interestingly. No way to compensate for it. Did drilling incrementally with Harbor Freight $13 bit set.  When I do actual final assembly on my ride bike will leave this bolt slightly loose allowing bush to find it's on "happy place", then will torque to C14 spec locking it in that place. It was no more than .125 inch off center anyway.

After drilling, chucked the C10 bush in drill press cutting bolt head with hack saw while spinning. Then cut threaded side off in same fashion. Lastly ground resulting hardened bush from 35 mm to approximate 30 mm to fit C14 shock.

Please note as I was using the threaded portion of C10 bolt/bush to anchor bush to drill press table surface, I only drilled to a 32mm depth. That to make sure threaded portion remained intact till final cut off. Also as C10 bush/bolt is hardened, I used step at bolt head and the threaded end step to start cut off points.

Cleaned all and assembled all with C10 linkage parts. My seat height has not been checked yet. Did check shocks. C14 was one inch longer. Did check steering head angle also. Old shock had head angle was at 27.5 degrees. Post C14 shock change over, head angle was still at 27.5, no change. Was surprised by this. So would be safe say rake and trail were not affected appreciable to the one inch difference shock length at change over. Interesting. I was surprised here!

Of note, learned a neat "new to me" trick in this process. To level and squared a drill press table. One only need bend a coat hanger chucked in drill press to make a compass of sorts.  Turning chuck by hand leveling table to touch all points of coat hanger end and waala! Leveled & squared press table to chuck with no fuss. Damn wish I knew that long ago. Thanks internet. 64 years and still learning!

I know fellow COGERs have done this process before. Looked a lot of posts in prep, as well with everyone's help here in. This was a fairly straight forward process. The most labor intensive and time consuming is drilling incrementally and grinding with trial fits, as well final sanding to dress and square all mating surfaces.

Now if I may ask, how has everyone dealt with side and center stands? Not sure there is enough room on closed positions to weld any long enough extensions. But that will be another Sunday perhaps. Thanks again all.
 
Cleaned all and assembled all with C10 linkage parts. My seat height has not been checked yet. Did check shocks. C14 was one inch longer. Did check steering head angle also. Old shock had head angle was at 27.5 degrees. Post C14 shock change over, head angle was still at 27.5, no change. Was surprised by this. So would be safe say rake and trail were not affected appreciable to the one inch difference shock length at change over. Interesting. I was surprised here!

Lee, I don't think there will be a lot of head angle change, but I have a thought that might explain why the head angle didn't change..

  Adding a longer shock has to raise the rear of the bike, "unless" you didn't adjust something..,,,,,,
    Is it possible your C-10 shock had air pressure in it, and the C-14 Shock had no preload dialed in?
    If yes, because you have more spring sag with the C-14 shock, the seat height may be close to the C-10 set up..

Great idea on leveling the Drill Press table!

Update; Not sure how your measuring your head angle change? I did quick/rough test..
            With my bike on center stand, I placed a digital angle finder on my front fork, and jacked the front of the bike
              up and down.  With both wheels not touching the ground, & bike rocking on center stand; the rear goes up
              about 1" when front is lowered about 1"..
          I think that moving the rear only (1"), would give me about 1/2* of change at the front?
                   
            Makes me suspect your seat height is the same as with the C-10 shock, because the rear is sagging more than
            it did with the C-10 shock.    I suggest adding preload and raise the rear.
              If you do so, look to see if you get change in the Head angle..

Hope this helps, Ride safe, Ted
 
Thanks for info Ted.

Was able to get back to shock project today. Played around with the C14 shock on C10. Black knob did not change headstock angle measurably with stock C10 arms attached to stock C10 rocker. Seat height was way too high for my comfort though. Whether aired or not
(did not check it beyond length measure) C10 shock was just 1 inch shorter than C14 shock when I removed it. I still am having trouble reconciling lack of head angle change initially. I am thinking I may have made a measurement error. All measure was done with bike off center stand and held by handle bar end. But.........

Today I used a 3-position after market lengthening arm (off a ZX12 I believe) to lower seat height. Using best low seat was in 8 inch long hole position. The rear tire touched ground on stand and headstock angle went to 32 degrees in held by handlebar position. Did not like this on face value.

The first hole position would have been stock C10 arm length. So next used middle hole at 7 & 5/8ths inch position. This gave tolerable seat height and 30 degrees at headstock. Probably ok but not stock specs.

So next I raised fork tubes in triple trees by 3/4 inch. This gave even better seating position and 28 degrees at headstock. Now very close to stock start spec and closer on seat height. Believe this to be good. Side stand and center stand are now good without mods too. Better still.

Next plan is to cycle fork through full shock travel to make sure nothing is making contact at full compression. If no issue there I will then proceed to transfer all changes from my mock up non runner C10 to what I ride daily.

If test rides are satisfactory then that will be close. I still find this type of shock linkage perplexing. But through trial and hopefully few errors think I will get the hang of it.

I know others have been here before. But kind of wanted to leave a detail of process for others in future. I paid $54 for C14 shock with under 20k miles on Ebay. This makes this a cost effective swap in the extreme. I only looked at shocks where seller listed mileage.

If test rides are satisfactory will have the stock C10 arms lengthened to 7 & 5/8s via heli-arc weld up. Stock they are 7 & 1/4. So a 3/8 splice should do it. That should finish this project for well under $100.

If any one sees an issue with fork raising or anything else feel free to shout out. It will be a week or so before I get to check this out further as back to work is slowing the next step in process to a hold till time allows.

Thanks all for comments and advice!
 
Lee, I started to do a similar thing to a C-10 but opted to use the Lowering Rocker as it was easier.
  (ie: I already had a Norm Soucy 1 1/2" Lowering Rrocker to use)

  I have some C-10 Links that you can have. (cut your extension's from them)

Sending you a PM.

I see we're both South Central.
I'm in Houston / where are you located?

Ride safe, Ted
 
I am not inseam challenged and decided to leave the ride height 1 -1/2" taller. I like the increased steering angle. Bike turns in much more quickly now. Great info on the lowering link arms not clearing the C14 shock. Won't waste my money on those if I do decide to go back to the stock ride height.
 
Ted

So you like lengthened rocker better than doing longer links?

If I  am understanding and assuming correctly, you must have welded two rockers to make a longer one?

Yes can see I will have to give you more than one call on my return from travel next week.

Thanks again on formula offer, ph#, and C10 part offer. Will make use of all surely.

Mercer Lee
 
No, I had a (1 1/2") Norm Soucy Lowering Rocker that I had bought to lower my bike previously.
    At that time I had the stock shock on it.
    The bike was too low for me, so I removed it.

When I installed the C-14 Shock I realized that using the Rocker would made the bike stock height.
So, I installed it with the C-14 shock.....

Norm also sells Lowering Links that should lower the bike lower than stock.

NOTE: The Norm Soucy Lowering Rocker is not lengthened.
          It is built with the center hole in a higher position..

Give me a call when you get home.

Ride safe, Ted
 
Ted,
Disregard: "If I  am understanding and assuming correctly, you must have welded two rockers to make a longer one?"

Reread your message. Understand where your  longer rocker came from now. I misread your statement on source.
Mercer Lee
 
Sounds like you're figgerin' it out...  :beerchug:    :great:

I purchased a bushing that was close to spec, and shortened it to fit... about 2mm iirc.
I don't have a zerk on it, but every other oil change I repack the bearings, and it works
out just fine... 

With my Centerstand, I can deploy it with the bike upright, but leaning on the side stand.
No mods necessary.  My rear shock is set at 7-8 clicks for one up.  Max for two up.
You can't even compare the ride difference.  Night and day.  Great bang for the buck mod
if you're willing to put in the time and energy.
 
Marty, with your 7-8 click setting, can you check your spring sag?
  I've been trying to learn about setting spring sag and your numbers will help me.

Using info I found on YouTube, {to be anywhere near what they suggest}, I have a lot more preload set than you.
I think I have about 18 clicks...

Ride safe, Ted
 
connie_rider said:
Marty, with your 7-8 click setting, can you check your spring sag?
  I've been trying to learn about setting spring sag and your numbers will help me.

Using info I found on YouTube, {to be anywhere near what they suggest}, I have a lot more preload set than you.
I think I have about 18 clicks...

Ride safe, Ted
Click to expand...

The rear setting of 8 is empty/no bags.  Probably a little light because I've installed tip over bars
and a few other weighty farkels since setting the sag.  I have the measurements jotted down
somewhere.  I'll give a looksie.

"By the book", your sag is set optimally set at mid travel of the suspension.  Weight of the
Rider with gear, bike, and farkrls will all play into it.  Maybe I'm more svelte??  ;D
 
on my C14 shocked C10 I have found about 10 clicks when one up (220 lb plus bags with minimal stuff carried) works well.  when the wife is on fully cranked to the top seems fine for the most part.  ride height doesn't seem to alter regardless of # clicks.

I have the stock C10 bone in place so it does ride high.  this thread has given me confidence to go for the 1.5" bone replacement though.  winter task.

Cal
 
"By the book", your sag is set optimally set at mid travel of the suspension.  Weight of the
Rider with gear, bike, and farkrls will all play into it.  Maybe I'm more svelte?? ;D

You could be right about the svelte...  (Actually, your probably right)

The difference in our posts is our % target; 
I'm trying to learn how to set spring sag according to what I've seen on YouTube.
  They say to set the sag at {I think} about 30% (1/3)..
    Admittedly, that will make the ride rougher that what your using (1/2)..
      But it is supposed to make the handling better.
          Maybe the more knowledgeable in the club can explain??

NOTE: (from my failing memory) 30% is what they recommended, and I "thimk" I was only able to get about 40% as the springs were too soft.  Will try to find my notes.

PB: The adjuster should click. The little clicker/detent may be gummed up.

Ride safe, Ted

UPDATE: Didn't find my notes, but...  I did a little research.
              Here is a basic video of how to set sag.
                    It sez to set it at 1/3 to 1/4 of the suspension travel. With 1/4 being more for race...
                    NOTE: They are talking more about sport bikes and race bikes in most of the video's I reviewed.
                                For street, other video's recommend the softer (1/3) and that is what I tried to do...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtzTyCKh5fY

Again: I am not very knowledgeable on this. Not saying I have it right. Trying to learn.
 
connie_rider said:
"By the book", your sag is set optimally set at mid travel of the suspension.  Weight of the
Rider with gear, bike, and farkrls will all play into it.  Maybe I'm more svelte?? ;D

You could be right about the svelte...  (Actually, your probably right)

The difference in our posts is our % target; 
I'm trying to learn how to set spring sag according to what I've seen on YouTube.
  They say to set the sag at {I think} about 30% (1/3)..
    Admittedly, that will make the ride rougher that what your using (1/2)..
      But it is supposed to make the handling better.
          Maybe the more knowledgeable in the club can explain??

NOTE: (from my failing memory) 30% is what they recommended, and I "thimk" I was only able to get about 40% as the springs were too soft.  Will try to find my notes.

PB: The adjuster should click. The little clicker/detent may be gummed up.

Ride safe, Ted

UPDATE: Didn't find my notes, but...  I did a little research.
              Here is a basic video of how to set sag.
                    It sez to set it at 1/3 to 1/4 of the suspension travel. With 1/4 being more for race...
                    NOTE: They are talking more about sport bikes and race bikes in most of the video's I reviewed.
                                For street, other video's recommend the softer (1/3) and that is what I tried to do...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtzTyCKh5fY

Again: I am not very knowledgeable on this. Not saying I have it right. Trying to learn.
Click to expand...

I'm far from a track guy, and sag is prefferential to the rider for the most part.  I do like the ride
more forgiving on my aging bones (partially herniated disc), so I'm pretty sure I'm not set up for track.
All being said the C-14 shock and Sonics w/emulators is still much tighter than the stock mush.
I AM good to ride 12 hour days with this set up.  ;D  It's all about compromise, eh?

Guess I'm more marathon than sprint.  :))

 
I guess that's my delima..
My mind sez I'm a Sprinter, {or mebbe a Marathoner},, but my body {and my wife} sez "are you crazy"...  :truce:

So, I tinker with the bikes more than I ride them..

Ride safe, Ted
 
Question about the lower bush for mounting the c14 shock. Does it need to me 30mm or 32mm long? The other post about the lower bush shows one member had a 30mm length bush, the parts fiche shows a 32mm, and Turbojoe says 32.5mm. I’m guessing 32mm but I want to be certain. Can anyone chime in on this?
 
From an old Fred B posting;

For the lower mount you will need a bushing that is 19mm 20mm x 30mm.

I just measured a C-10 Rocker and that sounds correct for me.
Like others, I also built mine out of a C-10 Shock Bolt.

Ride safe, Ted
 
Pbfoot is correct.
I just measured the OD of a C-10 shock bolt and the OD is 20 mm.

Previously I only measured the length.. which should be 30 mm.

Ride safe, Ted
 
connie_rider said:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/08-2008-KAWASAKI-ZG1400-ZG14-ABS-CONCOURS-SHOCK-REAR-SUSPENSION-X3/352473109889?hash=item521108d581:g:ejoAAOSww6Zbr9oy:rk:75:pf:0

Is anyone looking for a C-14 rear shock?
Thought I would share it, in case someone is looking..
  Just came across this on Ebay.  $38.40

Ride safe, Ted
Click to expand...

Hmmm.... good find... What's all that's required for the conversion? Lowering link and grinding to make it fit? Or is there more? Do you know where the best source for extra parts (lowering links etc) are?
 
The C-14 shock will make the bike set higher than stock.
Some folks use Lowering Links to bring the height back to stock.
I used Norm Soucy's lowering Rocker. {See reply #1}
    I think it best as I know it works with the center stand.

To install the shocks you have to do a couple of mods the bolts sizes and bushings, plus build a mount for the adjuster.
Other than the shock itself, the Biggest cost is the Lowering Rocker.

I'm not going into all of it right now, as it has all been discussed recently.
Here is one of them.  http://forum.cog-online.org/tiressuspension-c10/yet-another-suspension-rebuild/
There is lots of info to type again... {Hard to do with my 1 finger typing style}..
Do a quick search for suspension discussions, and you can find the info, or just go to he C-14 Suspension section and dig thru there.

After a little research come on back and we can answer your questions..

Ride safe, Ted
 
Update: More than you all might want to know.

Got my stretched by welding links back from welder. They were made from four links welded after being cut diagonally to make an extra length pair. This to keep C10 stock ride height with the C14 shock.

My excitement was short lived on inspection however. I had built a jig to ensure length and square of links during weld process. As these units use needle bearings this was critical. The welder elected to do it differently without jig. Unfavorable result with both out of square in multiple planes, sadly. Was going to toss them and start over with new welder if I could find one for a small order like this.

Then I remembered my jig was right on! Bolted both links in and cranked down on all adjustment to force links into spec. That would do. Wow! But how?

Removed links adjusted jig with washers to take all out of wack dimensions at 1-2 degree past spec. Then cranked down on jig again with reassembly. So far so good.

After research on the net for malleable point of aluminum decided 500-650 degrees in heat was needed. Had only 500 in kitchen oven. But no rosebud torch for next plus 150 degrees. Figured I would try the oven for four hours anyway. My wife came home at 1hr point. So that ended the oven use. She did not want to heat the kitchen as she had plans there for evening. Oh well I tried, he he!

But low and behold, miracle of miracles, next morning after slow cool down and spring back on release from jig all was in spec. Perfectly too! Lucky me!

Now to find time to pull old shock and try new C14 shock install. Am still playing with front fork tuning yet. Where do winter weekends go?!
 
If you have a self cleaning oven,, it goes to a higher temperature in the clean cycle.
  {Don't ask me how I know, and don't tell my wife}.

Ride safe, Ted
 
Yeah but how hot does self clean get? Could not find that out in ovens manual anywhere. Past 650 degrees might be counter productive to mission at hand. Fortunately 500 worked.
 
We recently had our oven worked on.
The tech told me the temperature it reached, but unfortunately I do not recall what it was.
The main thing I recall is; it was greater than the set temp. {to burn off/remove food residue.. }

As you have the problem solved, not worth doing a test.

Anxious to hear how you like the new shock set up..

Ride safe, Ted
 
Got a break in cold weather and got my c14 shock on my 87 c10. Modified lengthened stock links fit perfectly. The ride improvement is phenomenal at rear. In Louisiana had to use 3rd click from softest to get comfort. Roads beds are terrible here. Side and center stands work as should be with no mods. So much easier to get bike on center stand due to rear tire being lowerer now. I love this conversion! Now to get fork oil squared away next!
 
It's a great upgrade.  Glad it all went together well.
I was never a fan of 'pumping up' the rear shock.

Enjoy the ride!
 
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