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Carbs 4 sale or trade

J

jmurphy361

Guest
Guest
I have been trying to fix a problem of bogging at 4500 and thought it may be the carbs so I bought a used set off ebay. Took the bowls and tops off and everything looked fine (as did my originals). Installed them on the bike and it runs fine except the exact same bogging at 4500. It didn't change it a bit. I don't really have the money right now to buy electrical parts so I am selling the original carbs off my 2001, OR will trade them for known good coils and wires, pick up coils, and an igniter box. If I don't get any response by this evening I will list the carbs on ebay. Figured with all the help you guys have given me I would offer them here first. I will take $150 for the carbs, paypal only. Or like I said I will trade even up for the items above.
Thanks, Jay
334-300- five three five one. (Mobile AL 36693)
 
hmmm... why dont you send those carbs  out and have them repaired and them put them on your bike and fix the problem and then sell the ebay ones.
 
Since the originals have been cleaned thoroughly, and float levels tested, there is no reason to send them anywhere. Although I don't claim to be a Connie carb specialist, I have rebuilt hundreds of car carbs when a Master Certified technician specializing in driveability at a Chevy dealership. I didn't really think the carbs were the problem but to eliminate them for sure I tried another set. The problem is EXACTLY the same with either set of carbs. Bottom line is my problem is elsewhere. not carbs.
 
murf said:
Since the originals have been cleaned thoroughly, and float levels tested, there is no reason to send them anywhere. Although I don't claim to be a Connie carb specialist, I have rebuilt hundreds of car carbs when a Master Certified technician specializing in driveability at a Chevy dealership. I didn't really think the carbs were the problem but to eliminate them for sure I tried another set. The problem is EXACTLY the same with either set of carbs. Bottom line is my problem is elsewhere. not carbs.
Click to expand...

Oh , I was misled. You said "Took the bowls and tops off and everything looked fine (as did my originals)" You did not say you cleaned them.
So  maybe you had bad set of  carbs so you decided to  buya set of used ebay  carbs to see if that would fix the problem and the problem is the same therefore it is not the carbs?  Would it not have been easier to  change the spark plugs and shorten the spark plug wires first?    How about the possibility of  'it idles and runs good below 4500 and above 4500 therefore it must not  be the plugs and wires  and it could still be the carbs.  I happen to think might be the  carbs.  Why not send the carbs out to a Connie carb specialist, have them  re-jetted, cleaned  and  checked and then you will  know it is not the carbs.  If you have seen it  properly done it is far more in depth then just spraying it with carb cleaner.  You did put over flow tubes in right and you do have a  set of vacuum  guages?
What is your compression ratio and how is and when was  the last  valve adjustment?  I dont mean to second guess you. I am just trying to help you. Sounds like  carbs to me and having 2 sets of carbs dowhat your describing  is very common with these Connie carbs. Do you have all the different sets of  guages to check the  different  jet  sizes in each carb?  You are one of many  to say they have done a ton of car carbs (myself included) and  not be able to properly  repair motorcycle carbs.  They really are a different animal.
how about the rubber boots and holders? Normally  on a 2001 model those would have turned  hard by now. Also it is common for the air box to split so check that too.
 
No problem on the 2nd guessing, when I say cleaned I mean complete disassembly, every orifice cleaned and blown through yada yada yada. I am assuming if it were carb trouble that the 2nd set would act at least a little different and not exactly the same. I know it sounds like carb problems, it is what I thought as well. You can ride it all you want if you don't twist the throttle over 1/2-3/4. Being easy on the throttle you can go to redline and as fast as you want. When it bogs, it is severe, not a hesitation or flat spot or temporary bog, it is as in just barely enough fuel to keep it running and it starts slowing down or just holding the current speed, no spitter, sputter, backfire, surge, nothing, it will stay bogging till the cows come home but stay at the same speed unless I back off the throttle then it hauls butt again. Kind of like a plugged exhaust only I ran it with no mufflers to no avail. Ran it with clear tubes on float bowls, it is not a fuel supply problem. Sprayed carb cleaner in carbs during condition, no change, removed air filter, no change, etc. etc. etc. Plugs "look" new and normal color. Keep in mind I bought the bike this way figuring an easy fix of cleaning the carbs......NOT. It may even have a wrong part on it that I would not detect. I am thinking either all or at least 2 cylinders are shutting off electrically keeping the rpm from rising under load. Heck I don't know, any ideas are welcomed, but trust me when I say it is not fuel or carb related. I know I know... it sure sounds like it. :)
I am curiuos about what you said about cutting the plug wires, even though they look clean I may try that
 
hey murf, you truly have an interesting problem.  It now sounds like it may  an electrical loading problem, like the plugs dont fire at that rpm which is normally where the power starts on a stock Connie. You can cut a little off each end of the spark plug wires and  screw them back together.
there are others who know a lot more than me who will have some ideas for you to try soon. i am thinking you could try a new set of plugs or better yet  re-gap them smaller and try it. What plugs are in there now? There is a set  of  that the part numbers are very close (an E or R at the end) but the gap is way too big and it will act just like what you are describing.
 
Murf, after reading your last post that this happens upon hard throttle opening, I have to say, it's the carbs or fuel system. I can see electrical being rpm related, but not throttle related. Steve
 
Murf,  I'm thinking fuel delivery problem too, kinda like SISF.  One of my 97's is in mothballs right now because I can't give her much throttle at all before the engine cuts.  I was thinking of buying a spare set of carbs for her too but haven't yet eliminated all the other fuel system components. 

Let us know what finally solves the problem for you.

Good luck!
 
Steve in Sunny Fla said:
Murf, after reading your last post that this happens upon hard throttle opening, I have to say, it's the carbs or fuel system. I can see electrical being rpm related, but not throttle related. Steve
Click to expand...
I am in agreement that if it is more throttle opening sensitive than RPM it is likely carbs or fuel system related.  Sounds like a float level perhaps or something seriously restricting fuel flow or even a problem with a slide or two.  If the area of poor running is not just a certain RPM, but you cannot apply heavy throttle at any speed above 3000 then I would agree with Steve.  IF you could ease through the poor running RPM and THEN apply full throttle and run well, that would indicate more toward the electrical issues.
 
Murf,
Like you, 2 sets of carbs doing the exact same thing tells me it isn't the carbs.

hmmmm,,, Unless, your vacuum lines are incorrect. Recently one member had an issue and later we found that he had his vacuum lines tied together. On hard accels he lost vacuum, which closed the petcock, which wouldn't let the bike accel.......

Assuming that is al correct, I'll try coming at it from another angle.

Check the clearance on the pick up coils.
Possibly they are out of adjustment in some way that your breaking down (on picking up the signal to fire) when doing a hard accell.

Or maybe it's a vibration thing. If so, J Box, main fuse, or Igniter box....
Or do the old tried and true,,, wiggle the wires!

I know it doesn't quite made sense, but ya never know.

Let us know what you find!

Ride safe, Ted
 
Thanks for all the suggestions and ideas, they are very welcome. I received 2 coils from a fellow member to try out. I hate to be a parts replacer but it has come down to process of elimination at this point. I have heard of igniters causing this on Kawaski jet ski's but am not so sure it apply's on a Connie. If the coils don't fix it I will be trying an igniter next. I am concluding that it may be engine load related which happens to correspond with throttle position. I was 100% certain it were carb related even though I went through them 3 times, I was so certain that I still went and bought another set but the problem did not change, it ran exactly the same.
 
I wish you lived even closer; you could come over and we could swap parts until we found exactly what was wrong. It would take a while but it would so be worth it....can you dig up another Concours owner near you?
 
I was thinking the same thing.
Instead of buying parts a piece at a time, find someone near with a bike to swap parts back and forth.
Or someone near with a stash of Connie Electronics in their shop.
Where are you located?

Ride safe, Ted
 
Steve in Sunny Fla said:
connie_rider said:
  CHECK THIS. Steve
Click to expand...
If this were the case you should be able to test it by flipping the petcock to prime while riding and the fuel flow issue should go away... if it is fuel flow issue that is. 
My bet is on something not making good contact when the engine starts to vibrate.
Click to expand...
 
smithr-scad said:
Steve in Sunny Fla said:
connie_rider said:
Recently one member had an issue and later we found that he had his vacuum lines tied together. On hard accels he lost vacuum, which closed the petcock, which wouldn't let the bike accel.......
Click to expand...

  CHECK THIS. Steve
Click to expand...
If this were the case you should be able to test it by flipping the petcock to prime while riding and the fuel flow issue should go away... if it is fuel flow issue that is. 
My bet is on something not making good contact when the engine starts to vibrate.
Click to expand...

+1  PRI is your friend to check this.

Also, this "vibration syndrome" is what I suggested in the other thread.  BTDT.  In my case it was the connector at the Ignitor.  Swapped ignitors didn't fix it but made it sporadic. THat allerted me to the problem area and I finally bent the little prongs in the connector and all has been well since.  But in my case, once I got above the 4500 RPM zone, the bike ran perfectly at any throttle opening.  Only in the BUZZ range did I have the power loss.
 
I'd swap parts too, if I were you.

I'm following this because one of my 97's has a similar-sounding issue.  I say one because I have an identical '97 with no issues.  I'm tempted all the time to swap parts between the bikes in order to trace a fault.  In computer troubleshooting, it's called Replace With The Known Good and it's an effective troubleshooting method. 

Too bad swapping carbs is such a pain though!

Good luck isolating the fault. 
 
I am in Mobile Alabama
I have been running it on PRI with no change, had it doing it in the driveway once and while holding it in the bogging state I had clear fuel lines hooked to bowl drains and fuel level did not go away in the bowls.
 
My big question Murf is: Once past the problem RPM, can you run the bike at wide open throttle without problems?  OR do you still need to use partial/small throttle openings at any RPM above the point where this begins?
 
I will attempt to make this short so it may be hard to follow.....
Bike would not start today.
Wires to coils - right side coil has good spark leaving coil to plug wire- red wire has 12 volts with meter leads to red wire and chassis or engine. Zero volts if meter leads to both the red and green wires. Green wire must not be grounded until cranking or running ?
Left coil - no spark from coil - red wire has 12 volts with meter leads on red wire and chassis or engine ground. Red wire also has 12 volts when connected to both the red and black wires. The black wire going to this coil is apparently grounded (should it be ?) Black wire also has 100mv on it, Ah Ha !!! Bad ground you might say ? After extensive checking and the sort I find the black wire for the left coil goes to igniter and tach. Disconnect igniter 100mv still on black wire, disconnect tach and voltage is gone from black wire. Now when the meter leads are connected to the red and black wires there is no voltage just like the right coil which is firing. Left coil still does not fire. Swap red and green wires from right coil to left coil and now the left coil fires. (the left coil wires do not reach to the right coil so I don't know if the right side would work or not using the left side wires but assume it wouldn't)
The 100mv on the left coil black wire will also go away if I pull the main fuse, the black wire will not be grounded when the main fuse is pulled as well. Figuring there is a bad connection somewhere causing a back feed of voltage but have looked everywhere except breaking the J-box open. Any ideas ???
 
Murf,
the only thing that sounds abnormal in all this is that the left coil isn't firing.  THe ignition works on lost spark, there are two channels on the ignitor, one for each coil.  Each channel has its own pickup coil on the crank and each reads the same point on the trigger wheel.  THe black wire and the green wire are only grounded when the pickups each have the trigger point pass by them.  THey pass that signal on to the ignitor which grounds the appropriate coil (black or green).  You correctly note that the left coil (black wire) also triggers the tach signal to operate the tach.  Yes, some millivoltage on this wire is normal feedback from the tach.

If the left coil is not firing with the tach disconnected and it has 12+ volts to pos side and yet it worked with the green wire connected, it can only be:
1. A bad pick-up coil for left channel.
2. A bad left channel in ignitor.
3. A bad wire or connection between pickup and ignitor.
4. A bad wire or connection between coil and ignitor.

IF YOU ARE POSITIVE that the left coil isn't firing... Check the connections under the carbs near the oil filler plug where the pickups plug into the harness going to the ignitor.  Unplug and re-plug them.  You can also check them for continuity to the pickups and test the pickups with meter.  Check the connections at the ignitor plug for corrosion or bent pins.  Look at the ignitor to see if its plug looks OK.  Check continuity (with tach disconnected) in the black wire from ignitor plug to coil.  If everything here checks out, it looks like it could be ignitor.

I have had a bad ignitor before and I have also fried a coil before.  In both cases the bike would start and run on one channel (two cylinders).  I even rode the bike 20+ miles on two cylinders to get to help once.  SO if it isn't starting this is a bit unusual IMHO.  If it isn;t even popping and trying to start it sounds more like zero fuel.
 
That was great information ! Thanks
Now one last electrical question ....... what the heck are the 2 relays and boat load of wiring spliced into the headlight ? My meter went crazy when wiggling this spider web of wires.
 
It sounds like a Murph's or Tammy's headlamp wiring harness or a homespun one.  The stock wiring to the headlamp is inadequate and tends to overheat plus not deliver enough voltage to the headlamp.  By using the stock wiring to trigger relays, a separate 12v wire from the battery can be used to provide a full 12+ volts to the lamp.  And it saves the stock wiring from overheating and melting stuff too.
 
So.... I crank the engine just as it was from last week while watching spark coming from left coil, nothing. Swap ingniter, still nothing, swap pick ups and wa la, nice snapping spark from coil. All excited I reassemble the bike half ass just to ride it. SAME FRICKING THING !! Reinstalled loaner igniter and same thing. I have not swapped the coils yet, maybe tomorrow, I doubt it is a coil though. I did however get it to bog down sitting there and removed the air filter to spray carb cleaner in the air box while bogging , nothing. Left the filter out and the cover off and it did not bog sitting there but still bogged on a road test only not as bad. If I cover the air box door that I left off with my hand while riding it made it worse. I did notice when I got back from a road test with the filter and cover installed there was some gas in the box. I guess it is flooding when it bogs. Wonder if a new air filter would fix it ? Cuyler mentioned this long ago. Could the air filter actually regulate the air that precisely ??  It runs bad installed or removed but better removed.

It bogged sitting there at wot no filter but the cover installed. Did not bog sitting there with the filter removed and the cover removed but still did it on the road. I guess I can get a new air filter and see what happens but can't see it fixing it.

 
2001 19,000 miles salvage title, front fairing broken, runs great other than wot or close to wot. All plastic is off in a pile and I really don't feel like reinstalling it. $800
Can send pics of it as it was when I bought it.
 
You're giving up?
When I got my 87 it developed a similar problem but at much lower speed/throttle.
It needed new vacuum lines almost everywhere and the "valve, air switch" that lets air into the heads.
It's function isn't too critical (you can eliminate it with Snarf's blocker plates) but it was leaking a lot of air and things improved when the leak there was eliminated.
I put in 2 buddy bugs myself, one was that I plugged the vent lines from the float bowls that go up from between the carbs, clip to the frame and then just stop.  Turns out nothing works right with those plugged.  Undid that and undid some problems.  Yours could have spiders in them or something that doesn't cause a problem until WOT.
Second bug was using a non-oem fuel line from the petcock to the carbs.  It was too big and kinked when fully assembled so fuel could trickle but ran out.  Yours held the correct float bowl levels so it probably isn't that, but you can check it easily.
Regardless, the point I'm trying to make is, carburation isn't all carbs.

Last thing, on my carbs the throttle gate thing is worn from the years of sliding in and out of the air flow.  It works on vacuum, I think, being a second throttling mechanism in addition to the butterfly valve.  If yours were stuck in the open position it would deny you the function of opening in response to engine rpms or air flow.  I don't recall the carbs having the "pump" that squirts gas in when the throttle moves (the thing that floods the engine when starting a cold car by jiggling the pedal), instead the slide valve opens the throttle as vacuum builds.  I recall a friends outboard motor as not having the "pump" either and it would momentarily near-stall when the throttle was suddenly opened, I think because the rush of leanish higher-pressure air/fuel mix would take a lot of power to compress and barely fire to pay back its borrowed energy.
 
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