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dyna beads balancing
- Thread starter OMoaC
- Start date
Some love them, some do not. Like tires, oil, and a host of other subjects. It's a matter of opinion. It's up to you. You could try them and see if you like them, or not. I'm not trying to be a smart azz. But you might get 50 opinions both ways. Like a lot of subjects. It may be best to decide for yourself.
ldr_c14
Bicycle
It's true about opinions. When I bought my first set a couple years ago for my other bike I caught a lot of flack about how they are going to wear out the inside of the tire and how moisture will clump them together and they won't work, blah blah blah. So since everyone who is telling me this has never tried them and they were "experts" I just had to do it. After two motorcycles and 130K in miles, I still use them and like them a lot. But that's my opinion. 
I tried them and went back to the regular wheel weights.
Above 100 mph the front felt a little squirrelly and I never had that feeling with lead weights.
Above 100 mph the front felt a little squirrelly and I never had that feeling with lead weights.
Being an engineer who works in the field of vibration, I went to their web site to look for a physical explanation of how they could work...and didn't see anything. Unless someone can point me to a reference as to how they work, I file it away as snake-oil...but I'm open to be proven wrong ???
willyp
Iron Butt
It does take a little looking around to find it but there is a very good and clear explanation, I'll see if I can find it.
Oh look a link called 'How It Works'... leads to this page: How It Works (also more here)
Hmm, there was a video demonstration of the principle theory, maybe on you-tube or something.
Oh look a link called 'How It Works'... leads to this page: How It Works (also more here)
Hmm, there was a video demonstration of the principle theory, maybe on you-tube or something.
Your right capn Bob. Kinda like asking for toilet paper recomendations. ??? Thanks for the feedback though. Starting to think it has more to do with tire. balance and suspension setting variations etc forming all the different opinions. I'll have these pilots spooned up with lead for a bit then try the beads and see the difference. They're cheap and easy looks like.
willyp
Iron Butt
Dyna Beads don't work unless the tire is rolling on the road. Think about it. If the wheel is off the ground there is no 'reference' for the beads to work off. So spin balancing or running the bike with the rear wheel off the ground is meaningless. I have Dyna Beads in both my bikes, front and rear, and they work great for me. The '88 I put them in with new tires, never checked balance before installing the Dyna Beads. The '01, I removed all the weights and installed Dyna Beads with the tires that were on it when I got the bike.
I am guessing, since you obviously didn't read up before installing, that you used some kind of tire lube when installing the tires and some got in the tire and the beads got stuck in it.
I am guessing, since you obviously didn't read up before installing, that you used some kind of tire lube when installing the tires and some got in the tire and the beads got stuck in it.
kowRider
Training Wheels
I don't know how they work but, they do! I used them in my last set of tires for over 13 thousand miles (D3s). Tire wear was even and I never felt anything weird at any speed. First time I used them, I figured it was a gamble, maybe they would work and it would cost me a few dollars to find out. I am satisfied and have them in my new set and after 4 thousand plus miles everything seems fine this time also.
Weights can be perfect until you scrub a little rubber off. The beads adjust for the life of the tire. So far, of all the people that actually tried the beads one person said they did feel right over 100 mph. If you ride over 100 mph for any length of time, maybe weights might be better.
Weights can be perfect until you scrub a little rubber off. The beads adjust for the life of the tire. So far, of all the people that actually tried the beads one person said they did feel right over 100 mph. If you ride over 100 mph for any length of time, maybe weights might be better.
wally_games
Mini Bike
WillyP said:
Why not? I would think that a spinning tire is all that's required for centrifugal force to kick in and "balance" the beads. Shouldn't matter if it's on the ground or not.
willyp
Iron Butt
Well if the beads didn't work for you, don't use them. I am not suggesting that you should. Thank you for sharing your thoughts on your experience, I am just sharing my thoughts on your experience also, don't take offense please.
The instructions don't say not to use any tire lube and neither did I. The instructions do say not to get tire lube on the inside of the tire. Since the issue with lube and tire beads is that the beads get stuck in the lube and can't move,I don't think mileage on the tire has any effect on lube inside the tire, if anything it might make it stickier.
Why would you search out numerous websites, then not read them?
The instructions don't say not to use any tire lube and neither did I. The instructions do say not to get tire lube on the inside of the tire. Since the issue with lube and tire beads is that the beads get stuck in the lube and can't move,I don't think mileage on the tire has any effect on lube inside the tire, if anything it might make it stickier.
Why would you search out numerous websites, then not read them?
Old Man on a Connie said:
I used them on a Honda VTX1800C and they worked great. They were very easy to recycle whenever I changed tires.
When I checked with a dealer about my C14, their suggestion was to use weights because the Tire Pressure Sensors may not like the beads and the slight amount of dust created as the beads wear.
DualSportRich
Tricycle
Add my name to the list of folks who use them and think they seem to work good. I've had no issues in about 10k miles and 2 sets of tires.
A few beads were stuck by the TPMS sensors but everything still works.
I don't know if there's much of a "dust" problem either. When I reused mine, a lot of them were actually black where the tire rubber wore off onto the beads, rather than the beads wearing down.
A few beads were stuck by the TPMS sensors but everything still works.
I don't know if there's much of a "dust" problem either. When I reused mine, a lot of them were actually black where the tire rubber wore off onto the beads, rather than the beads wearing down.
I’ve taken a look at the links and you-tube “demonstrations” of the Dyna-Bead operating principals, and as engineer in the field of vibration, I feel I owe the forum some feedback regarding my opinion. I really don’t want to come across as some sort of arrogant know-if-all, as I am aware there are many anecdotal reports of their effectiveness, but I don’t think the dynabead operating principal is fundamentally sound. I say this for a number of technical reasons which are hard to present without getting overly technical, but I will give you a brief explanation of why I think this is.
The Initial Condition Problem. First, I think we can all agree that when the tire is as at rest, the beads will collect at the bottom of the tire. This position, only by pure chance, would result is a hypothetical static balance (where the net system C.G coincides with the axle centerline). So the beads cannot achieve a static balance at rest or as measured traditionally on a static balancing machine for that matter. As the system begins to rotate, the bead motion will become chaotic until the centrifugal forces are sufficient to help stabilize the beads against the inner surface of the tire (this begins to occur at about 4 mph per my calculation). For the concept to work as advertised, the beads, following this chaotic motion, must arrange themselves in a location that results in static balance. This brings us to what phenomena can make this happen.
The Signal Problem. For the beads to arrange themselves in a position that achieves a net system balance, there must be a signal that tells (forces) them to move to that hypothetical position after the chaos has subsided. If you read the “explanatory” materials, this signal comes from the vibration of the rotating wheel itself….that is, as the wheel vibrates “up”, the beads move “down” to “counter” the vibration and achieve balance. This may make sense to a layperson, but there are a lot of problems with this explanation, and I will try to explain my objections. Consider the case where the unbalanced wheel/tire is mounted on a spin balancing machine. If this spin machine has a high level of mounting stiffness and the wheel is relatively rigid (as they are), the tire will spin in a nearly perfect circle with no “vibration”, hence the beads will get no signal to move as they have to way of knowing if the assembly is actually balanced or not. The load cell on the spin balancer, however, will clearly register the static imbalance in the assembly. Hence the beads cannot balance a wheel/tire that is mounted on a spin balance machine.
The Suspension Compliance Problem. The argument will be made that the beads begin to “work” when the imbalanced wheel is mounted on an actual motorcycle and, unlike the spin-balance machine, the assembly does indeed vibrate and gives the beads a signal to move. The problem here, however, is that the strength of this signal becomes a function of the compliance and damping of the tire and suspension components, and these are variables that have nothing to do with the magnitude of the static imbalance in the wheel/tire. Hence the movement of the beads will be a function of things that are not related to static balance, so the beads would move differently in different bikes even if the same unbalanced wheel/tire was mounted on them. And, even when the wheel is mounted a single motorcycle, the level of vibration is not constant with road speed. At low speeds, the vibration from imbalance is relatively small but will increase in intensity when a resonance is approached as the road speed increases. Consequently, the beads would be “signaled” to move different amounts at different speeds even though static balance requires them to be in a single position at all speeds. But it gets worse. As resonance is approached, a phase shift begins to occur, ultimately resulting in a complete change of sign when the road speeds exceeds resonance. This suggests that the beads would be “signaled” to move to the completely opposite side of the tire from where they should be. So, even if the beads were “fortuitously” in the proper position to achieve static balance at road speeds below resonance, they would move to the wrong side of the tire at speeds over resonance.
The Accel and Braking problem. Assuming that the beads do work, and find themselves migrating to a position that performs a static balance on the rotating assembly, there is still the very real problem of what happens when the bike accelerates or brakes. When this happens, conservation of momentum requires that the beads continue to move as though the wheel was not abruptly changing its angular rate of rotation. Hence the beads will continue to rotate around the interior of the tire as though the wheel was not accelerating or braking. So, even if the wheel was in static balance before hand, it couldn’t maintain it thru the acceleration/braking event.
I hope I didn’t upset anyone by this evaluation. A lot of the fun of motorcycling is trying stuff and futzing around….and if Dyna-Beads work for you, I am happy for you. By pure happenstance, I can envision certain cases where static balance could be improved by using them, but do believe they are not fundamentally sound in principal. And by the way…that You-Tube video of the spinning water bottle…in my opinion is nothing more than a demonstration of gyroscopic stability provided by the extra weight of the sand and has nothing to do with balance. Didn’t want to burst any bubbles…Just my 0.02….YMMV. :beerchug:
The Initial Condition Problem. First, I think we can all agree that when the tire is as at rest, the beads will collect at the bottom of the tire. This position, only by pure chance, would result is a hypothetical static balance (where the net system C.G coincides with the axle centerline). So the beads cannot achieve a static balance at rest or as measured traditionally on a static balancing machine for that matter. As the system begins to rotate, the bead motion will become chaotic until the centrifugal forces are sufficient to help stabilize the beads against the inner surface of the tire (this begins to occur at about 4 mph per my calculation). For the concept to work as advertised, the beads, following this chaotic motion, must arrange themselves in a location that results in static balance. This brings us to what phenomena can make this happen.
The Signal Problem. For the beads to arrange themselves in a position that achieves a net system balance, there must be a signal that tells (forces) them to move to that hypothetical position after the chaos has subsided. If you read the “explanatory” materials, this signal comes from the vibration of the rotating wheel itself….that is, as the wheel vibrates “up”, the beads move “down” to “counter” the vibration and achieve balance. This may make sense to a layperson, but there are a lot of problems with this explanation, and I will try to explain my objections. Consider the case where the unbalanced wheel/tire is mounted on a spin balancing machine. If this spin machine has a high level of mounting stiffness and the wheel is relatively rigid (as they are), the tire will spin in a nearly perfect circle with no “vibration”, hence the beads will get no signal to move as they have to way of knowing if the assembly is actually balanced or not. The load cell on the spin balancer, however, will clearly register the static imbalance in the assembly. Hence the beads cannot balance a wheel/tire that is mounted on a spin balance machine.
The Suspension Compliance Problem. The argument will be made that the beads begin to “work” when the imbalanced wheel is mounted on an actual motorcycle and, unlike the spin-balance machine, the assembly does indeed vibrate and gives the beads a signal to move. The problem here, however, is that the strength of this signal becomes a function of the compliance and damping of the tire and suspension components, and these are variables that have nothing to do with the magnitude of the static imbalance in the wheel/tire. Hence the movement of the beads will be a function of things that are not related to static balance, so the beads would move differently in different bikes even if the same unbalanced wheel/tire was mounted on them. And, even when the wheel is mounted a single motorcycle, the level of vibration is not constant with road speed. At low speeds, the vibration from imbalance is relatively small but will increase in intensity when a resonance is approached as the road speed increases. Consequently, the beads would be “signaled” to move different amounts at different speeds even though static balance requires them to be in a single position at all speeds. But it gets worse. As resonance is approached, a phase shift begins to occur, ultimately resulting in a complete change of sign when the road speeds exceeds resonance. This suggests that the beads would be “signaled” to move to the completely opposite side of the tire from where they should be. So, even if the beads were “fortuitously” in the proper position to achieve static balance at road speeds below resonance, they would move to the wrong side of the tire at speeds over resonance.
The Accel and Braking problem. Assuming that the beads do work, and find themselves migrating to a position that performs a static balance on the rotating assembly, there is still the very real problem of what happens when the bike accelerates or brakes. When this happens, conservation of momentum requires that the beads continue to move as though the wheel was not abruptly changing its angular rate of rotation. Hence the beads will continue to rotate around the interior of the tire as though the wheel was not accelerating or braking. So, even if the wheel was in static balance before hand, it couldn’t maintain it thru the acceleration/braking event.
I hope I didn’t upset anyone by this evaluation. A lot of the fun of motorcycling is trying stuff and futzing around….and if Dyna-Beads work for you, I am happy for you. By pure happenstance, I can envision certain cases where static balance could be improved by using them, but do believe they are not fundamentally sound in principal. And by the way…that You-Tube video of the spinning water bottle…in my opinion is nothing more than a demonstration of gyroscopic stability provided by the extra weight of the sand and has nothing to do with balance. Didn’t want to burst any bubbles…Just my 0.02….YMMV. :beerchug:
ChipDoc
Sport Tourer
The whole concept of DynaBeads struck me as odd but, unlike rogracer, pretty much everything I know about vibration engineering comes from watching Nova on PBS. Glad to have someone explain it like that.
And yet, there certainly is anecdotal evidence that it works... I wonder if adding the beads changes things in such a way that we actually drive a little differently?
And yet, there certainly is anecdotal evidence that it works... I wonder if adding the beads changes things in such a way that we actually drive a little differently?
cablebandit
Moped
Anecdotal evidence:
On my Vstrom I mounted a new front tire and put 1 ounce of lead on the heavy side of the rim. Riding down the road was like riding a pogo stick. I went home and added dynabeads (left the 1 ounce of weights on) and re-rode the same route. Smooth as glass. I then removed the weights and the ride remained smoother than any conventionally balanced tire.
YMMV.
On my Vstrom I mounted a new front tire and put 1 ounce of lead on the heavy side of the rim. Riding down the road was like riding a pogo stick. I went home and added dynabeads (left the 1 ounce of weights on) and re-rode the same route. Smooth as glass. I then removed the weights and the ride remained smoother than any conventionally balanced tire.
YMMV.
I used the beads in the old Connie and I use them in the C14. I wanted to switch to the Centramatic system after talking to them at the Niehaus open house in Illinois a few years ago. They make them for a small number of bikes. My friend had a set installed on his wing and he claimed that he could feel the difference right away. The centramatic products works on the very same principle as the beads, but inside it's own housing. I want the engineer to take a look at it.
http://centramatic.com
http://centramatic.com
homeslave
Training Wheels
Demon Dog said:
DD, I used centramatics on my '01 Dodge diesel for 11 years and they worked flawlessly. Got so spoiled on the ride quality that when I traded it in on a new 1500, I thought it rode horrible while the salesman just looked at me like....what are you talking about?
Forget snow/ice/mud build up throwing them off, they adjusted magically and gave me 160,000 miles of smiles.
I'm going to buy a set for the truck, but didn't know they made them for bikes too, thanks for the heads up.
nando
Crotch Rocket
Dyna Beads, snake oil, cheap land...we all want to believe it, but there is no empirical evidence that these things work.
A Physicist explained to me once: just because a scale model of a 747 flies, dont mean that an actual size 747 would fly because the variable of the physics involved do not work.
I have use dyna beads before, and seen the gadget on Utube that attempts to prove their efficacy; but as rogracer explained, the physics in an actual rolling tire on a motto don't pan out.
That stuff is tire snake oil...have your tires balanced
A Physicist explained to me once: just because a scale model of a 747 flies, dont mean that an actual size 747 would fly because the variable of the physics involved do not work.
I have use dyna beads before, and seen the gadget on Utube that attempts to prove their efficacy; but as rogracer explained, the physics in an actual rolling tire on a motto don't pan out.
That stuff is tire snake oil...have your tires balanced
Snake oil for my personal experience, I say.
I'll relate my recent, very personal experience. My front, stock size tire, had 2ozs of wheel weights determined by a spin balancer from the local Cycle Gear store that I personally balanced. Didn't have any balance issues, just wanted to see if I could do away with the external weights.
(By the way, Motorcycle Consumer News did the same type "testing", same results, didn't work. Interesting.)
I tried the dyna beads, installed 2 ozs based on that chart, removed the external wheel weights. Got up to about 65 mph on the hwy I commute on daily, had the WORST tire bounce/shudder, whatever you want to call it. Went home, and reinstalled the wheel weights, re rode route, no problem. Took tire/rim to CG that weekend for a balance re-check, with the wheel weights removed, dyna beads in, the spin balancer showed a need for 2oz of wheel weights. I marked the spot where the weights needed to go. Added another oz of Dyna beads, no change and the balancer still highlighted the same spot needing weights.
I know others have expressed success with the beads. I watched/read all the research I could find, wanted it to work, but no way on my bike, on my tires. I also used the beads on the rear tire, same results.
Of course, YMMV, some settling of contents may have occurred during transmission. No implied or expressed warranty. Your volume may need to be adjusted, don't take any wooden nickels, yada, yada, but I personally wont spend my time or money for these ever again.
BTW, if you really want to try the beads, try some synthetic media blasting material. Looks like the same stuff and 20 bucks would probably get you 20 lbs) LOL
I'll relate my recent, very personal experience. My front, stock size tire, had 2ozs of wheel weights determined by a spin balancer from the local Cycle Gear store that I personally balanced. Didn't have any balance issues, just wanted to see if I could do away with the external weights.
(By the way, Motorcycle Consumer News did the same type "testing", same results, didn't work. Interesting.)
I tried the dyna beads, installed 2 ozs based on that chart, removed the external wheel weights. Got up to about 65 mph on the hwy I commute on daily, had the WORST tire bounce/shudder, whatever you want to call it. Went home, and reinstalled the wheel weights, re rode route, no problem. Took tire/rim to CG that weekend for a balance re-check, with the wheel weights removed, dyna beads in, the spin balancer showed a need for 2oz of wheel weights. I marked the spot where the weights needed to go. Added another oz of Dyna beads, no change and the balancer still highlighted the same spot needing weights.
I know others have expressed success with the beads. I watched/read all the research I could find, wanted it to work, but no way on my bike, on my tires. I also used the beads on the rear tire, same results.
Of course, YMMV, some settling of contents may have occurred during transmission. No implied or expressed warranty. Your volume may need to be adjusted, don't take any wooden nickels, yada, yada, but I personally wont spend my time or money for these ever again.
BTW, if you really want to try the beads, try some synthetic media blasting material. Looks like the same stuff and 20 bucks would probably get you 20 lbs
) LOL 
2fast
Crotch Rocket
I have no idea if Dyna beads work or not. I have no desire to mess with em when I change my tires. I balance my tires with a Marc Parnes balancer (static) and have had no balance issues. I paid about a hundred bucks for the balancer and have been paid back many times over by doing my own changes, and helping friends do theirs.
Victor Salisbury said:Snake oil for my personal experience, I say.
I'll relate my recent, very personal experience. My front, stock size tire, had 2ozs of wheel weights determined by a spin balancer from the local Cycle Gear store that I personally balanced. Didn't have any balance issues, just wanted to see if I could do away with the external weights.
(By the way, Motorcycle Consumer News did the same type "testing", same results, didn't work. Interesting.)
I tried the dyna beads, installed 2 ozs based on that chart, removed the external wheel weights. Got up to about 65 mph on the hwy I commute on daily, had the WORST tire bounce/shudder, whatever you want to call it. Went home, and reinstalled the wheel weights, re rode route, no problem. Took tire/rim to CG that weekend for a balance re-check, with the wheel weights removed, dyna beads in, the spin balancer showed a need for 2oz of wheel weights. I marked the spot where the weights needed to go. Added another oz of Dyna beads, no change and the balancer still highlighted the same spot needing weights.
I know others have expressed success with the beads. I watched/read all the research I could find, wanted it to work, but no way on my bike, on my tires. I also used the beads on the rear tire, same results.
Of course, YMMV, some settling of contents may have occurred during transmission. No implied or expressed warranty. Your volume may need to be adjusted, don't take any wooden nickels, yada, yada, but I personally wont spend my time or money for these ever again.
BTW, if you really want to try the beads, try some synthetic media blasting material. Looks like the same stuff and 20 bucks would probably get you 20 lbs
Interesting findings. My main concern would be that some wheel/tire combinations need more weight to achieve balance. Not simply measuring per a general chart. Hence what if the beads weight more or less than what is truly needed? (From a guy who static balances his own).
Stewart said:Fred,
What type of air, do you go with natural or a special mix?
Actually, I use extremely dry air. I have a desiccant snake I attach to my air hose when I fill my tires. It is filled with calcium chloride and it drys the air out to around 99% free of any moisture content. This gives me one of the main advantages that nitrogen provides, without the cost or hassle of nitrogen.
http://www.amazon.com/DeVilbiss-Desiccant-Snake-DS20-DEV-130502/dp/B000UZPPKA
Bruiser
Sport Tourer
I tried them in my last set of new tires, and personally didn't feel any difference. Talked to a couple of mechanics, who have changed tires on bikes w/ the beads, and they claim they see more wear on the inside of the tires than those w/o. The engineers who devised these things, however, I'm sure have a lot of R+D involved, but I felt they were a waste of my money. Since I'm on the subject, does anyone know if they affect the internal tire pressure goodies?
I am wondering how physics behave differently with the beads than they would with say, the same weight of water? Other than surface wetting and surface tension I would think the action in the tire would be the same. But everyone knows no amount of water will balance a tire. Other liquids, such as ethanol, would have a lower surface tension and not cling as well to the tire surface.
Fred_Harmon_TX said:Actually, I use extremely dry air. I have a desiccant snake I attach to my air hose when I fill my tires. It is filled with calcium chloride and it drys the air out to around 99% free of any moisture content. This gives me one of the main advantages that nitrogen provides, without the cost or hassle of nitrogen.
http://www.amazon.com/DeVilbiss-Desiccant-Snake-DS20-DEV-130502/dp/B000UZPPKA
THIS is but one of the many reasons this is the BEST forum ever!! I have learned about so many cool, useful and necessary tools, toys, and techniques from our members... just plain outstanding!
Fred_Harmon_TX said:Stewart said:Fred,
What type of air, do you go with natural or a special mix?
Actually, I use extremely dry air. I have a desiccant snake I attach to my air hose when I fill my tires. It is filled with calcium chloride and it drys the air out to around 99% free of any moisture content. This gives me one of the main advantages that nitrogen provides, without the cost or hassle of nitrogen.
http://www.amazon.com/DeVilbiss-Desiccant-Snake-DS20-DEV-130502/dp/B000UZPPKA
From the link, spec says:
"Good to 20 PSIG"
This appears to be a typo where they dropped a zero.
2Fast said:
Well, in any case, here is one rated for 200 PSI.
http://www.easternairproducts.com/snake.pdf
gMitch said:
It is a typo. Its good for 200 psi.
# Maximum Flow: 20 SCFM
# Maximum Pressure: 200 PSIG
http://www.ecompressedair.com/air-dryers/point-of-use/ds20-point-of-use.aspx