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emulator settings

bmcush

bmcush

Crotch Rocket
About 30K miles ago my bike was in need of steering head bearings and so they were replaced.  At about the same time a partial transformation to the front suspension was also done, this included race tech 1.0 springs and emulators (left at factory settings).  The suspension compliance was great though a little harsh on the small stuff.  Well about 25K latter the steering head needed an adjustment, then 1K latter another adjustment but by this time they were shot.  On other bikes I’ve owned in the past, normally I get between 50K to 100K on a set of steering head bearings.  Then I this site I recently discovered a softer blue spring along with some preload suggestion, I think it was SISF that suggested two turns preload along with the four holes drilled on the blow off plate.  Anyways, I got the springs Friday along with the replacement bearings so worked like a mad man to get things done in time for Saturdays ride.
All I gotta say is Wow what an improvement.  My hats off to Steve for sharing this with us.
 
If you are getting <100k out of steering head bearings you are either pulling way to many wheelies or tightening the bearing to much.
 
I have the very same issues with my front suspension, too harsh on small stuff. I had the emulators apart, what plate are you talking about? Theres the plate at the top of the emulator with one pin hole in it, but it doesn't look at all like the pic SISF posted, there are no other "scored" dimples or whatever he was talking about on mine. Is this the "plate" to drill extra holes in? And you contacted Race Tech directly and they sent the blue springs. Yellow are on the bike now and blanl, no color silver also came with the emulators when I got them. I've got zero pre-load, meaning the washers are just touching the springs and plates.
 
Strawboss, yes that is the one. You have older emulators like I have with one low speed port. The newer ones have dimples and 2 low speed ports default.

Here is my old model
IMGP6394.JPG


New model from SASMayhem
RT-Emulators2.jpg
 
RT-Dampening.jpg


This pic is from a RaceTech article on the emulators. The logrithmic looking curve labeled orifice dampening is what the stock dampening rod forks do. And the other curve labeled digressive dampening is what the emulators do.

If I understand the article right, springs affect the slope after the knee in the curve. The preload effects the height of the knee in the curve and the low speed ports effect the slope of that initial ramp up before the knee in the curve.

Earlier mode thinking used to be to use the preload to effect slow speed dampening and then springs for the high speed. I "wonder" if people are going too low on the preload lowering the curve of the knee too low. So now days we have dimples and use the low speed ports for low speed dampening, the preload as more of a medium speed and the spring rate for the high speed. -- At least how I interpert the big long article.
 
Thanks, but do you think we can drill another pin hole and get the same effect as the new models? Also, anybody know the correct size hex wrench needed to adjust the top of the emulator rod? Its not SAE and its not metric.
 
I don't wheelie shafties and the mileage was actually 35K not 25, my bad.  I'm pretty good with working steering head bearings and have been doing it for decades like a lot of you so I fully understand preload and handlebar swing 

We've talked about the OEM brakes being fit for a much lighter 600 sport bike and I had been thinking that perhaps the same could be true for the steering head bearings. 

The early blow off plates only have one hole.  Replacements from racetech now come with two holes and dimples for two more.  If your real carefull with a drill you could drill the hole on the plates you have.  I would just order new ones with the springs you'd need anyways.  Not sure of the drill size but could've sworn I used a 4MM Allen to disassemble the emulator.
 
Strawboss said:
Thanks, but do you think we can drill another pin hole and get the same effect as the new models?
Click to expand...

I think so. In the link to the other thread Willy gave, you can see a pic of my older model completely disassembled and SAS Mayhem new piece shown here. I think the two are the same pieces, doing the same thing, just one is updated for better tuning of the emulators.

I believe SAS Mayhem said that the blue springs came in the box with his emulators. Yellow installed by default and blue included in the box.  Not sure of they did this a while back, I ordered blue springs from RaceTech for $5 each plus S&H. total was $17 bucks.

What do you mean by "small stuff". I interpret that to mean faster fork movements ( versus slower movements ).  I would start with the blue springs, 3 turns preload, and tune the slow speed from there. Probably go to at least 2 holes since that is the new default way they come from RaceTech.  4 Holes seems to be what SISF settled in on.

I "wonder" how much fork spring rates, oil weight, rider weight etc. all as to do with it. RaceTech gives these with 2 holes now, but also recommend 1.0 springs ( or at least used to ). SISF tuned in on 4 holes. What springs does he have? Could we end up with a progression like 1.0 = 2 holes, 1.1 = 3 holes, 1.2 = 4 holes, etc.  OR should we all just use 4 holes ?  --  Last fork oil change I went to the blue springs, but wanted to change only 1 thing at a time so I still have the old 1 hole plate. Next fork oil change I am going to start drilling.
 
Do you run a fork brace?  If the brace is not installed correct it puts the front end in a bind.  Then the front end has no sag and small bumps feel worse.  How is your sag?
 
I have the old, 2 years, emulators, yellow springs, no pre-load, fork brace installed right, 15wt fork oil set at 6 inches from top with empty tubes fully compressed. The bumps jar the mirrors loose, and the stuff in the fairing pockets bounces around, I don't like riding anymore. I just chalked it up to super bad roads here in NE Ohio, they're bad, but I don't remember it being this bad when I bought the bike. It sometimes sounds as though the spring "thunks" up and slaps the fork cap inside before the fork rebounds up on smaller bumps. I've had the forks apart 3 times in the last week, I'm not going to touch them at all till after the national.
 
OK, when I had the forks open a few days ago, the oil level was not equal, maybe a quater inch down in both and an eighth difference between the two. I leveled them both off, and loosened the pre-load so the springs are just barely touching the emulator plates. cycled the forks up and down a few times, rechecked level, ok. A little better, better with two people on the bike. Rear shock at 40lbs. Leaving it alone till after the national. Will drill another hole, carefully, into the plate since I have the older units, can't hurt, I know a very good machinist that can do it. Thanks all, learned a lot with this thread. Will keep you posted.
 
Just saw this - I have 4 holes and blue springs with 2 turns. 15 wt oil, and stock connie springs with about 5" cut from the soft end. super nice front end, it just sucks up everything and is very stable. No dive issues, even with 320's and 4 pots. I was considering a front end change for awhile, but not anymore - steve
 
I do have a fork brace, and run the 110 sized avon storm tire.

Fishing was average, nothing much but alot of whiting. I did catch a small hammerhead, which was unique. I also saw an enormous manta ray jump about 1/2 mile offshore - i'm sure it was at least 8-10 ft across. It splashed like someone dropped a car into the water! Steve
 
bmcush said:
I don't wheelie shafties and the mileage was actually 35K not 25, my bad. I'm pretty good with working steering head bearings and have been doing it for decades like a lot of you so I fully understand preload and handlebar swing

We've talked about the OEM brakes being fit for a much lighter 600 sport bike and I had been thinking that perhaps the same could be true for the steering head bearings.

The early blow off plates only have one hole. Replacements from racetech now come with two holes and dimples for two more. If your real carefull with a drill you could drill the hole on the plates you have. I would just order new ones with the springs you'd need anyways. Not sure of the drill size but could've sworn I used a 4MM Allen to disassemble the emulator.
Click to expand...
Yes, I have a ZX600-C (425lb 600 sportbike designed in the same era as the Connie) and it uses the exact same steering head bearings and seals. The distance between the two bearings appears to the the same as well. So, the bearings are going to be under higher load on the bigger bike.

The forks on the 600 are a touch smaller, though, at 38mm. The stock spring rate isn't much far off, though, at 0.70kg/mm.

BTW, I'm researching settings to use for emulators and came across this thread. Good info!
 
Go here for Emulator discussions/settings. In it are settings that I (and others) used.
forum.concours.org

Will this fit a C-10?

I've been considering a lower profile Radial for the rear of my C-10. I've seen several reports of wobble after some mounted the few radials that are currently available. Thought that maybe part of the problem is the sidewall height/profile of a C-10 rear tire. {150/80R-16} Was unable to...
forum.concours.org forum.concours.org

forum.concours.org

Inexpensive Fork Emulators?

In another discussion about Race Tech Emulators someone posted these "damper valves" as an inexpensive alternative to Emulators. The guy, "said" they will fit in the C-10's, he installed some, and they work the same as Race Tech.. {Trying to find his posting again}.. Has anyone used them...
forum.concours.org forum.concours.org
 
seth.t.hoffman2805 said:
Yes, I have a ZX600-C (425lb 600 sportbike designed in the same era as the Connie) and it uses the exact same steering head bearings and seals. The distance between the two bearings appears to the same as well. So, the bearings are going to be under higher load on the bigger bike.

The forks on the 600 are a touch smaller, though, at 38mm. The stock spring rate isn't much far off, though, at 0.70kg/mm.

BTW, I'm researching settings to use for emulators and came across this thread. Good info!
Click to expand...
I remembered your post when I came across some Emulators that might work in your 600?
Will post them below.

www.ebay.com

Front Fork Damper Valve Set | eBay

Tuneable Valves are installed on top of the front fork dampening rods and below the fork springs. Note: Damper rod drilling required. Photo install instructions included.
www.ebay.com

Here's some additional info.

http://web.ncf.ca/ag136/SV650/forkEmulators.html
 
What settings are you using for your generic emulators? Do they come with multiple springs, or just one set?

The racetechs I got for my 600 came with four sets of springs, and the setup recommended the yellow (64lb) at 2 1/4 turns preload for the 600. It came with four holes drilled in the valve plate.
 
From my notes;
I added 3 holes to the top plate in the (generic/Fork Dampers).
(Originally it had only 1 hole in the top plate) The extra holes make it smoother in stutter bumps.
I don't recall exact size of the extra holes, but I drilled the holes slightly smaller than the original 1 hole.

I added 2 holes in the damper rod {increased it from the original 4 holes to 6} and increased the size of all the holes.
I now have; 6ea. (5/16" Dia) holes.

I used ATF {because ATF is approx. 15 wt. and costs far less than Fork Oil}.
NOTE: ATF is a Non Foaming hydraulic oil and that is the same thing as Fork Oil.

I set the oil level at 6 1/4" from top {with forks collapsed}.
RaceTech says that you can use as little as 5.9" for the oil setting.

The Damper Valve is set at 2 turns.

The generic Damper Valve comes with 1 spring. It is silver and is the same force as the RaceTech blue spring.

I set my Loaded sag to 30-35mm.

Most Important; Be sure to set your sag before evaluating how your fork modifications work.
Many/MOST don't do this and it's "Very important"!

I'm no expert, but as you can see, I like to tinker.
I'm just sharing what I've tried to help others.
(Because Steve/other COGgers shared their info with me when I did the project).
COG is GREAT!!

At this stage, I have mine pretty close to ideal for me (@ 200 lbs), but the bike still dives a bit more than {I think} I want during hard braking.
Sooooooooooo {to decrease dive},,,,,,,,,,,
I "may" (eventually) increase the turns to 2 1/2 or 3 turns, and/or decrease the fluid height to 6", and/or go to 20 wt. oil, or/or/or/etc etc etc...

NOTE: Any/or all of these options should decrease dive, but doing them will have other effects too.
ie; The changes could make the ride a bit harsher and I really like the way it handles now.

Ride safe, Ted

PS:
By the way; if anyone needs springs/etc.
I have a new fork spring kit that I purchased some time ago.
It is a set of 1.1 Sonic springs for a Connie, The kit includes the springs, PVC Spacer material, washers, and 15 wt Fork oil (PG-1 I think).

I think it is basically the same as a spring set from Murphs. (plus mine came with oil).
I think I got my kit from Sonic. (??)
https://murphskits.com/straight-weight-springs-for-your-concours-1/
 
Last edited:
Does anyone that purchased an Emulator from RaceTech {for a C-10} know the settings, number of holes in the valve, & the oil level that they recommend for a C-10?

Ride safe, Ted
 
What I found quick like on my pictures. More info at home.
Emulator: FEGV 53801
Yellow spring
64 lbs/ in. Valve spring
2.0 turns preload
4 bleed holes
 
cragantler said:
What I found quick like on my pictures. More info at home.
Emulator: FEGV 53801
Yellow spring
64 lbs/ in. Valve spring
2.0 turns preload
4 bleed holes
Click to expand...
Thanks, Doug! If you have more info, it would be great to see. It seems like some people may be running the blue (40lb/in) spring at more preload and others the yellow (64lb/in) spring at less.

BTW, I believe the part number should have and "S", not a "5" at the beginning. When I look them up, Racetech lists FEGV S3801
 
seth.t.hoffman2805 said:
Thanks, Doug! If you have more info, it would be great to see. It seems like some people may be running the blue (40lb/in) spring at more preload and others the yellow (64lb/in) spring at less.

BTW, I believe the part number should have and "S", not a "5" at the beginning. When I look them up, Racetech lists FEGV S3801
Click to expand...
You are correct. It is a S. Found the box. I know I have my sheet I printed up from RaceTech and now just to lay my hands on it.
I’ll post as soon as I find it.
 
Awesome info, Doug, thanks! Your weight and other data is pretty close to mine, so this is probably what I'll aim for too.

That's actually pretty close to the settings they gave me for my ZX600C (which uses the same gold valve, since the damper rod top is the same, even though the fork tube OD is 38mm).

Here is it is for reference:Screenshot 2024-01-26 114212.jpg
 
connie_rider said:
NOTE: Per their data sheet.
Oil level Connie = 150 mm 5.9"
Oil level ZX-600 = 160 mm 6.3"
Click to expand...
Yes, definitely don't use my ZX600-C settings directly on a C10. I am probably creating too much confusion here on the forum talking about both of my bikes.

I did think this was interesting, though, as they give quite similar emulator settings for two very different bikes. I think that indicates that the precise settings (emulator spring preload, oil weight, etc) aren't as important. Just having the emulator with small low-speed bleed holes and the high-speed blowoff valve makes the biggest difference in behavior compared to the stock forks. Changing the emulator spring stiffness and preload will certainly have some effect, but may not be that noticeable.

I should measure the thread pitch on the spring screw and calculate the opening force for the yellow spring (64lb/in) at 2 turns. I wonder if those running the blue spring (40lb/in) spring at 3 or 4 turns actually is pretty close. I'd bet that the opening force is probably more noticeable than the rate after it opens for daily riding, so if either spring is used at a preload that gives similar opening force, the riding experience may be pretty similar.

When my V-Twin damper valves arrive (sometime in the next few days), I'll measure and compare them to the racetechs, and compare the spring.
 
Here are a few comparisons. It looks like the V-Twin 24-0361 damper valves are nearly identical replacements for the Racetech FEGV S3801 cartridge emulators. They come with springs that match the dimensions of the yellow (64lb/in) Racetech springs, and the other important dimensions are the same. The top cover plate is shaped differently, but it shouldn't affect the behavior in any way. The only real differences (aside from the Racetech parts coming in a much fancier package and with a heap of Racetech stickers) are:
-Total height (that takes up fork spring length) is 14.3mm vs 16mm
-Only drilled with one 7/64" bleed hole instead of four.

I'm going to put the V-Twin valves on my 600, because I can drill them with three bleed holes to match the Racetech setup sheet for that bike. I'll use the Racetech valves on my Connie, as it already has four holes drilled.

1000004432.jpg
1000004424.jpg
1000004425.jpg
1000004429.jpg
 
Well done!

When I did mine, I didn't have the RaceTechs to compare too, but I suspected;
V-Twin valves (Damper Valves) are actually copies of earlier version RaceTechs (Emulators/Gold Valves).

On the springs, are the spring ""wire thickness"" and "number of coils" the same?
On a spring that small, a slight thickness variation or 1 or 2 less/more coils are all that would be needed for that difference in force.

Anxious to see your results.

Ride safe, Ted
 
connie_rider said:
Well done!

When I did mine, I didn't have the RaceTechs to compare too, but I suspected;
V-Twin valves (Damper Valves) are actually copies of earlier version RaceTechs (Emulators/Gold Valves).

On the springs, are the spring ""wire thickness"" and "number of coils" the same?
On a spring that small, a slight thickness variation or 1 or 2 less/more coils are all that would be needed for that difference in force.

Anxious to see your results.

Ride safe, Ted
Click to expand...
I didn't measure the other springs that came with the Racetech emulators, but the yellow ones matched up about exactly to the ones that came with the V-Twin dampers (wire thickness, overall diameter and number of turns). Just looking visually, it looks like the wire thickness is thinner for the blue springs.

I'll let you know how things go. I finished modifying my fork parts for the 600 last night (drilling out the damper rods and drilling for 3 bleed holes in the valve), so maybe I'll get them put together tonight.

If I get the 600 back together and the other stuff done on the Connie, I may get the forks ready for it. I actually picked up a cheap pair of extra forks for it on ebay, so I am thinking of modifying those with the Racetech valves (and either Racetech springs or cut stock springs) and having them ready to swap in. Since I haven't ridden the C10, I'm curious to do a back-to-back comparison, and with a second set of fork legs, I could swap them in on a Saturday and get a pretty close comparison to the stock ones.

I will say that modifying the holes in the damper rods was more of a pain than expected, especially deburring them to my satisfaction. When I do them for the C10 I'm going to grind some flat spots with a dremel to start the drill bit so it doesn't want to walk around as much. Even in a drill press and vise, it was tricky.
 
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