Is ABS a reason not to improve braking skill?

[S Smith]

A [newish] rider on a local email list asked a question if her next bike should have ABS or not. The overwhelming response was YES, but some of the rationale seemed off kilter.  One person replied with this... 

Proficient stopping in emergencies under extreme pressure is something that most of us will never accomplish.

Another person's comment that proper braking skills can be made more proficient and instinctual by practicing in a parking lot garnered this reply...

With all due respect (you have taught me just about all I know about riding) I respectively disagree with your comment that practicing braking in a parking lot could create a instinctual response in an emergency. There is no way to test your "theory" on the average, non racing person. Its impossible to duplicate all that the brain goes through when confronted with an about to happen collision. Track guys don't have to worry about head ons or being it from the side or hitting people not seen on a curve etc etc.  If there were a test track to test such a thing... I would bet all my motorcycles against all your motorcycles that a skilled track person would also panic in a about if they had a second to avoid an about to happen collision at speed.

My question to the COG community is...  Should riders be tuning up their riding skill set on a regular basis, or does ABS mean "Absence of Braking Skills."

 

[Cra-z1000]

I wondered about this too . If someone was to ride an ABS -Traction control bike and had to go back to an old tech bike , would he be in danger due to relying too much on all the modern safety features . I've even heard some say they do not downshift much when stopping with a modern bike .

 

[pistole]

- same thing with cars pre-abs and pre-traction control.

- nowadays , you'd be hard pressed to find a car without abs and traction control.

- these two systems work and contribute to rider safety.

.

 

[Sgt Mac]

In my opinion, technology can fail, if you don't continue to improve your skills, what do you have to fall back on.

Relying wholely on ABS and traction control in a car is one thing, you have a decent amount of protection and safety systems, inherent to modern vehicles that, in the even of a failure, can save your life; motorcycles don't provide the same level of protection.

For me, it's not simply a matter of practice, but continued training in the form of MSF courses, advanced rider training given at local tracks, motorcycle mentorship programs, etc.

 

[prock1951]

Yes to both! One should practice wherever and whenever safe to do so, and if one can get (afford) ABS, do so. It ought not be an either or question, as w/ most things in life.

Going out tonight (dark) to practice tight turns braking.  >

Phil
Cog #5879

 

[mcfly]

ABS has it's handling characteristics just as Non-ABS.  Fact is, ABS will reduce stopping distance,
but will not "handle" the motorcycle for you.  It's is also important to point out that all emergency
brake situations do NOT require full braking, and better control of the bike is achieved when the ABS isn't
engaged, causing a pulsing of the brakes.

People that think ABS is a reason NOT to practice braking technique, and emergency braking will
never be fully prepared to face an emergency situation. 

ABS is a great safety feature, but not a cure-all to emergency stopping. 

 

[2linby]

My question to the COG community is...  Should riders be tuning up their riding skill set on a regular basis, or does ABS mean "Absence of Braking Skills."

Practice, practice, practice..... While it is fact that with ABS a rider can stop in lower traction situations with more stability this is not a substitute for learning not only what the bike is capable of doing, but what you as a rider are capable of doing with the bike.

If however braking is required in a lean then the primary factors that act in straight line braking are compromised by the sharing of traction. Traction is required to hold you and the bike in a lean and therefore braking and cornering traction is shared. ABS, as of this date, cannot distinguish if the bike is leaned over, but the rider certainly can. Therefore knowing ahead of time what you and the bike are capable of doing, through practice, will help make you a more proficient rider.

 

[slybonesjesse]

Seems interesting that many of the responses are worried that ABS will take away skills, that 90% of riders never had in the first place. They are not loosing anything. They never had it in the first place. ABS while it might stand for "Absence of Braking Skills", they were absent even on the Non-ABS machine. Unless were talking about a brand new rider who's first and only bike is an ABS bike. For the rest of us, We are worried they get used to an ABS machine and then have to ride a non ABS machine and will be too relient on technology. But for 90% of the riders out there, they were never going to practice anyways. So nothing is lost. IMO of course.

I might also tend to think that for the 10% that are practicing, how often and at what level. Are they just doing 20mph in a park n ride like they did in the MSF class. You really think this prepares you for a 40+ mph stop, in extreme pressure in emergency situation, and your brain has switch to 'fight or flight reflex' mode.

I would guess that of the 10% that are practicing, most are not practicing enough, or properly, and at speeds that count. Even of these how many are really ready ( excluding trained motor officers, etc ).

Hence what the first quite said is true.  " Proficient stopping in emergencies under extreme pressure is something that most of us will never accomplish. "

 

[2linby]

I might also tend to think that for the 10% that are practicing, how often and at what level. Are they just doing 20mph in a park n ride like they did in the MSF class. You really think this prepares you for a 40+ mph stop, in extreme pressure in emergency situation, and your brain has switch to 'fight or flight reflex' mode.

I would guess that of the 10% that are practicing, most are not practicing enough, or properly, and at speeds that count. Even of these how many are really ready ( excluding trained motor officers, etc ).

Fred's point on practicing and practicing at speeds higher than "school zones" is validated by this simple kinetic energy formula:

K=MV2 

Assume you, the bike and gear weigh in at 850lbs (I will substitute weight for mass in this equation so no argument's!  :-X)
and you are traveling at 40 mph and have to bring the bike down to a 20 mph speed. The difference is 40-20=20  therefore

K=850x202 = 340,000 lbs of brake energy

Same exercise but this time from 40 to 0 or a complete stop

K=850x402 = 1,360,000 lbs of brake energy or simply put to come to a complete stop at 40 mph requires 4 times the brake force in the same distance.

Arguably friction forces this energy to be released over a greater distance due to cohesion or friction and heat gain. (That's why it takes a greater distance to stop at higher rates of speed  :-\) But to be as simple and as elegant as possible , it takes a shiite load more energy, skill and fortitude to handle higher speed stops under control.

But do we ever really need it?  Well if you plan on traveling faster than 20mph, the answer is yes. And this is a skill that needs to be honed and remembered and re-remembered as it is uncomfortable, therefore we tend to shy away from the uncomfortable, therefore we need to get more comfortable.  :-[

Is anyone uncomfortable? 
 

 

[conniefan]

I once heard an expression, "you can't learn to ride a bike by going to a seminar." How can you learn to stop quickly from higher speeds if you don't practice?

While you can practice stopping your bike, you cannot as effectively control how your mind/body reacts when confronted with an immediate hazard. But at least if you've put some time and effort into working on the possibility, you may be better off than with no practice at all.

 

[S Smith]

Practicing at parking lot speeds allows learning and refining the techniques in a controlled manner, but more important, repetitive practice develops muscle memory. It is the muscle memory that allows the proper technique to be used instinctively when called upon at higher speeds.

 

[Sport rider]

My first thoughts in reading the original comments from the other riders was much like what Fred stated.  Having been in these situations from time to time, I've found myself overreacting with my brakes, especially my rear locking up.  Fortunately, I have learned to release it enough to get grip, but in emergencies, I feel that it's VERY easy to over-react and get yourself into trouble.  I'm not sure how much "practice" really helps, but with nothing more than anticdotal evidence, it's hard to make any factual statements on it.  It would be interesting to see practice courses that had "surprises" jump out to see how riders react.  Hmmm.....

 

[pistole]

Seems interesting that many of the responses are worried that ABS will take away skills, that 90% of riders never had in the first place. They are not loosing anything. They never had it in the first place. ABS while it might stand for "Absence of Braking Skills", they were absent even on the Non-ABS machine. Unless were talking about a brand new rider who's first and only bike is an ABS bike. For the rest of us, We are worried they get used to an ABS machine and then have to ride a non ABS machine and will be too relient on technology. But for 90% of the riders out there, they were never going to practice anyways. So nothing is lost. IMO of course

- very well said , +1 !!

.

 

[slybonesjesse]

Practicing at parking lot speeds allows learning and refining the techniques in a controlled manner, but more important, repetitive practice develops muscle memory. It is the muscle memory that allows the proper technique to be used instinctively when called upon at higher speeds.

Not disagreeing... but at the same time....

I recently took a 40hr motor officer training course. Where you ride the exact same first week ( 40 hrs ) that motor officers do. The course is exactly the same as King County Sherrifs and WA State Patrol Acadamy teaches. You are held to the same standards. We did braking skills practice twice a day, ever day, day after day. To pass you have to do 40+ mph, in 62 feet, under a radar gun, using all the proper technique, coming to a stop in first gear prepared to go, pretend to look in mirror and see person behind you is not going to stop in time, then immediately head out the escape cone pattern without knocking down a cone. Hitting a cone was the same as hitting the car in front of you. This means you failed to escape and were slammed by the car behind you. You failed that run, even if you did a good stop. No rear wheel lockup is allowed. A tiny bit at the tail end would be ok, but anything more than a slight chirp is a failed run. These police trainer bikes, at least the one I rode, locked up the front tire way to friggin easy, if you just grabbed a handful of brake. 

Anyways point being that while I do not disagree, stopping the Connie at 20mph in a park 'n ride under no pressure,  and stopping the police bike at 40+, while under a radar gun, in 62 feet, in cones, with technique, escape patterns, etc. -- these are two different things.  I am not sure having done one of these prepared me for the other.

Side note. We all started off at 20mph and worked up to 40 by the end of the couse. Of the 7 people in this class 5 initially "car'd the thing" as they called it. Not very good use of the front brake and locked up the rear right way. Their reaction was slam the foot down. Same as in a car. 2 people ( me included in this ) grabbed a handful of brakes and locked the front too much.

Learning to progressively work the lever and not locking up the front before the weight transfer has time to load the suspension and front tire, was hard for me. And its completely different on the Connie than the Police bike. The practice I did on the Connie didnt help much when I transfered to the police bike. It locked way easier than my Connie does at 20mph. So you have to learn on YOUR bike. -- And while all that practice on YOUR bike is great, and will help no matter what bike you switch too, dont count on it being the same. Its still way better than not practicing, I agree.

By the end I was able to make pretty consistent 38-42 mph runs with a good stop, escape etc. with some of those being really nice threshold braking runs.

Last note, being one of the two who had the tendency to lock the front too much, detecting the lockup, releasing and reapplying to still make the stop in time was tricky. At best I was good for 2 cycles. This one time I was not good for 2 cycles and learn the hard way. In anycase I think ABS in low traction situations is worth every penny. I even with practice and training I am not sure I am ready for 40+ in wet weather and trying to modulate the front brake as well as ABS can.

And so...

- I still think practice, with proper technique at speeds better than 20mph are things that we all need to work towards no matter what. ABS or not.

- In dry pavement, and proper technique I believe it when experts say you can stop faster than ABS. Assuming the ABS person just grabs a handful and locks the front right away and ABS does all the work.  -- I think ABS might be cool if you have proper technique and is only coming into play when you are right there on the threshold.

- In low traction situations, I think ABS could be the difference between stopping and being a statistic.

- Like 2linby mentions, ABS is not going to be the best in all situations.

 

[S Smith]

Learning to progressively work the lever and not locking up the front before the weight transfer has time to load the suspension and front tire, was hard for me. And its completely different on the Connie than the Police bike. The practice I did on the Connie didnt help much when I transfered to the police bike. It locked way easier than my Connie does at 20mph. So you have to learn on YOUR bike. -- And while all that practice on YOUR bike is great, and will help no matter what bike you switch too, dont count on it being the same. Its still way better than not practicing, I agree.

There will always be some acclimation time required when switching from one bike to another.  And this is the reason why taking additional rider education beyond the basic course is so important. There is something to be said with repeating the ERC with each new bike as it can be a new experience. Think of it as an opportunity to refine important riding skills (max braking, cornering, swerving), on your own bike. 

BTW - the MSF ARC-ST includes an exercise to develop the brake and avoid skill.

 

[slybonesjesse]

Yep. Nothing meant towards dismissing MSF courses as being bad. They are great. I plan to take ERC or ARC every 3-4 years no matter what bike, as it gives an insurance discount for having taken one within the last 5 years. Just adding my opinion and some background on how I arrived that it.

 

[slybonesjesse]

While I sit here and eat my sandwich at my desk, I am thinking of a different consideration. while I am advocating practicing at speeds greater than 20mph, learning these lesson on the police trainer bikes versus the Connie was nice. It was their bike that I and all the other students dumped repeatedly over and over, over the course of the 40 hrs. Them cone patterns are tight. My lesson learned the hard way on the front brake lockup resulted in us picking back up the motorcyle, one instructor holding the bike while the other instructor kicked the crashbar back into place, readjusting the handlebars, and getting it started again. This was on Day 1 and I rode that same bike for the complete course. -- Now if that was on the Connie, it would have been very expensive. Talk about ruining your day....

In anycase, there is something to be said for learning in a less risky environment and relying on muscle memory if/when the time comes. While I dont think 20mph on the Connie prepared me for 40+ on the police trainer bike, my Connie is still in one piece.

 

[mcfly]

Learning to progressively work the lever and not locking up the front before the weight transfer has time to load the suspension and front tire, was hard for me. And its completely different on the Connie than the Police bike. The practice I did on the Connie didnt help much when I transfered to the police bike. It locked way easier than my Connie does at 20mph. So you have to learn on YOUR bike. -- And while all that practice on YOUR bike is great, and will help no matter what bike you switch too, dont count on it being the same. Its still way better than not practicing, I agree.

There will always be some acclimation time required when switching from one bike to another.  And this is the reason why taking additional rider education beyond the basic course is so important. There is something to be said with repeating the ERC with each new bike as it can be a new experience. Think of it as an opportunity to refine important riding skills (max braking, cornering, swerving), on your own bike. 

BTW - the MSF ARC-ST includes an exercise to develop the brake and avoid skill.

Just putting on SS brake lines changes the characteristics of the bike.  Suspension upgrades will also
alter braking characteristics.  I couldn't see NOT taking the time make sure I know what to expect if something
happened...  These are things you don't want to discover IN an emergency situation.  So you don't even have
to change bikes.... just parts. 

 

[2linby]

Learning to progressively work the lever and not locking up the front before the weight transfer has time to load the suspension and front tire, was hard for me. And its completely different on the Connie than the Police bike. The practice I did on the Connie didnt help much when I transfered to the police bike. It locked way easier than my Connie does at 20mph. So you have to learn on YOUR bike. -- And while all that practice on YOUR bike is great, and will help no matter what bike you switch too, dont count on it being the same. Its still way better than not practicing, I agree.

There will always be some acclimation time required when switching from one bike to another.  And this is the reason why taking additional rider education beyond the basic course is so important. There is something to be said with repeating the ERC with each new bike as it can be a new experience. Think of it as an opportunity to refine important riding skills (max braking, cornering, swerving), on your own bike. 

BTW - the MSF ARC-ST includes an exercise to develop the brake and avoid skill.

Just putting on SS brake lines changes the characteristics of the bike.  Suspension upgrades will also
alter braking characteristics.  I couldn't see NOT taking the time make sure I know what to expect if something
happened...  These are things you don't want to discover IN an emergency situation.  So you don't even have
to change bikes.... just parts.

Just like when you put on new shoes...........take it easy until you figure it out  :great:

 

[fsr402]

I have always thought that with the invention of ABS and traction control it's made cars safer but worse drivers. With cars now a days new drivers are not having to learn how to control the car because the electronic nanny does it for them. And now with it on bikes I think the same thing is going to happen.

I learned how to ride on dirt. Raced motocross, hill climbs and hare scrambles for 15 years. Learn to handle a bike at 40+ mph in dirt with tight turns and dodging trees, a street bike is a piece of cake. 

 

[2linby]

Learn to handle a bike at 40+ mph in dirt with tight turns and dodging trees, a street bike is a piece of cake.

Yeah those tree sure can jump out in front of you pretty quickly! 

 

[mcfly]

Learn to handle a bike at 40+ mph in dirt with tight turns and dodging trees, a street bike is a piece of cake.

Yeah those tree sure can jump out in front of you pretty quickly! 

Started out on a Dirt Bike too, where we rode was mostly sand... Then if you got 'frisky'
you could ride the horse trails through the State Park.  That was fun, until the Park Troopers
finally caught me, and took my chain.  Had to walk the bike 2 1/2 miles home.

Needless to say I never got caught again....  :motonoises:

There have been times I wished I had the 125 while riding to work 

 

[pistole]

- i just had an occasion to call upon the ABS on my C14 , following a row of cars at a decent pace (approx 50/55 mph) and was just preparing to indicate to overtake.

- upfront , a tanker lorry decides that the other lane was nicer and lurches across.

- you then get the standard crumpling accordion effect as car after car brakes in rapid succession , leaving me last in the queue (whilst I was helpfully twiddling my thumbs) and no where to run. Grab a handful of front (thank god they taught me to cover my front brakes with two fingers at all times) , front dives , tyre bites hard , chirpy happy sound from the stock B'stones , front lever starts to pulse , I stop in time to see another biker behind me diving past me into a gap between the cars up ahead ....

- mind , this was in the dry. Ie , i braked my front hard enough in the dry to activate the abs. No thoughts whatsoever entered my mind of applying moderate pressure , letting off the lever , etc  - simply because there was no time.

- so , am now entirely happy with the abs on my bike. Will not buy another bike without.

.