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Secondary Butterfly Removal
- Thread starter mick6777
- Start date
What year model is your bike? If it is a 2010 or 2011, you'll probably want to leave them in and reflash the ECU, since the traction control needs them in order to work smoothly. It will still work without them, but not as well.
The other issue is getting the screws out in one piece. Lots of folks have damaged or broken them off getting them out. If you do decided to remove them, you'll need a proper JIS screwdriver, and it helps to heat them up before hand to soften up the thread lock used on them. You'll also have to add a Power Commander to remap the fuel. Which is another reason why a reflash of the ECU is a better solution, cause it will open up the butterflies and remap the fuel at the same time.
The other issue is getting the screws out in one piece. Lots of folks have damaged or broken them off getting them out. If you do decided to remove them, you'll need a proper JIS screwdriver, and it helps to heat them up before hand to soften up the thread lock used on them. You'll also have to add a Power Commander to remap the fuel. Which is another reason why a reflash of the ECU is a better solution, cause it will open up the butterflies and remap the fuel at the same time.
Just a thought on this. The down side to the re-flash is if you want to put it back to stock for whatever reason (say trade in). It could be more troublesome and costly than just re-installing the flies and such. Where as removing the flies and installing a PC can be reversed in short order. This is the major upside of fly removal over re-flash.
Although I would probably prefer the re-flash myself for any length of time. The re-flash is probably better if you do not plan on trading the bike. The re-flash also doesn't add a PC that could go bad. But like I said, if you plan on possibly trading the bike in the next couple of years. The fly removal may be the better option for returning to stock!
Although I would probably prefer the re-flash myself for any length of time. The re-flash is probably better if you do not plan on trading the bike. The re-flash also doesn't add a PC that could go bad. But like I said, if you plan on possibly trading the bike in the next couple of years. The fly removal may be the better option for returning to stock!
jasonc32amg
Bicycle
I think the reflash will be the best option if they develop a unit the owner uses to flash at home. Just like an SCT or Predator it would allow the easy switching between maps for different upgrades or to take it to the dealer for service.
Cap'n Bob said:
Actually the opposite is true. You are more likely to break a screw head off in the rod that the butterflies mount to when you remove them, making it nearly impossible to ever reinstall them again. The ECU reflash is a far safer option and easier to put back to stock. I believe Guhl Motors doesn't even charge you if you want to reflash your ECU back to stock, so all you are out is the shipping and a few days wait.
The secondary butterflies restrict airflow into the engine in the low and mid range rpms. Removing them helps improve low end torque. However, there are downsides to the removal process, and the 2010 and 2011 bikes use them as a control element for the traction control system. Many folks also have damaged or broken the small screws in the process of trying to get them out, since Kawasaki uses thread lock on them at the factory. And if you bust one off inside the throttle body, good luck ever putting the bike back to stock, so it may be a one-way trip.
I'd suggest you do some research into the subject before removing them, and I believe the Guhl ECU reflash is a better option.
Here are some photos showing how I removed them, if you still insist on taking them out. I suggest heating up an old screwdriver tip and hold it on the screws for about 15 seconds, and then removing them with a proper JIS screwdriver. The heat softens the thread lock agent and makes then come out easier. Do one screw at a time, heating it up and then removing it.
You'll also need to add a Power Commander if you remove them to remap the fuel. Which is yet another reason why I like the Guhl Motors ECU reflash instead of removing the butterflies.
Sacrificial screwdriver used to heat screws
Hold the heated tip in screw head and count to 15
Now you'll need a PROPER 12 inch JIS Screwdriver ($8) to take them out
http://www.ikaswebshop.com/hodjis2dr12s.html
Use anything less, and you'll be sorry.
Hozan #2 D-155-300
I'd suggest you do some research into the subject before removing them, and I believe the Guhl ECU reflash is a better option.
Here are some photos showing how I removed them, if you still insist on taking them out. I suggest heating up an old screwdriver tip and hold it on the screws for about 15 seconds, and then removing them with a proper JIS screwdriver. The heat softens the thread lock agent and makes then come out easier. Do one screw at a time, heating it up and then removing it.
You'll also need to add a Power Commander if you remove them to remap the fuel. Which is yet another reason why I like the Guhl Motors ECU reflash instead of removing the butterflies.
Sacrificial screwdriver used to heat screws
Hold the heated tip in screw head and count to 15
Now you'll need a PROPER 12 inch JIS Screwdriver ($8) to take them out
http://www.ikaswebshop.com/hodjis2dr12s.html
Use anything less, and you'll be sorry.
Hozan #2 D-155-300
mick6777
Training Wheels
Hi Guys,
Thanks so much for all your feedback. I was planning on doing this mod along with a PC and an Area P slip on. But after reading this I'm thinking of just doing the re-flash and leave the stock can. Can anyone give me an idea of what percentage of improvement I will get in low end torque with just the re-flash vs. PC and slip on? What about an aftermarket air filter vs. stock?
I have a Hayabusa with all the mods- pipe, PC, TRE, ect. It's very fast. That's really not what I'm looking for with this bike. I am not trying to get every available ounce of HP this bike has. I do want the feel of good low end performance however.
I don't really want to spend a lot of time and money on this. I want to spend time riding ;-) If I can get 80% of the benefit by doing a re-flash I would probably go that route. I'd appreciate any advice on the sound of the Area P slip on, is it irritating on the highway, or is the sound okay?
Also, I have 3 loud bikes already, I'm thinking it might be nice to leave this one quiet. Your thoughts and feedback are greatly appreciated.
Thanks so much for all your feedback. I was planning on doing this mod along with a PC and an Area P slip on. But after reading this I'm thinking of just doing the re-flash and leave the stock can. Can anyone give me an idea of what percentage of improvement I will get in low end torque with just the re-flash vs. PC and slip on? What about an aftermarket air filter vs. stock?
I have a Hayabusa with all the mods- pipe, PC, TRE, ect. It's very fast. That's really not what I'm looking for with this bike. I am not trying to get every available ounce of HP this bike has. I do want the feel of good low end performance however.
I don't really want to spend a lot of time and money on this. I want to spend time riding ;-) If I can get 80% of the benefit by doing a re-flash I would probably go that route. I'd appreciate any advice on the sound of the Area P slip on, is it irritating on the highway, or is the sound okay?
Also, I have 3 loud bikes already, I'm thinking it might be nice to leave this one quiet. Your thoughts and feedback are greatly appreciated.
mick6777 said:
mick6777-
My bike (2010 ) is the one that has been the test bike for the Guhl reflash. With the exception of the reflash, my bike is completely stock as far as engine modification. I have close to 2000 miles since the original reflash and I absolutely love the improvement. I've attached two charts which represent a 4th gear dyno run. The actual dyno chart compares the stock map against the Guhl reflash. The second chart shows percent improvement in HP and Torque as a function of engine RPM of the Guhl reflash. The original 5th gear dyno pull chart is also included. However, that chart (since it was in 5th gear) just wasn't showing the vast difference that my butt-dyno was experiencing. If you take a look at that chart, you just would not choose to have the reflash done as the improvement is so marginal that it does not seem to justify the cost. However, when you look at the 4th gear charts, the dramatic difference is obvious. I have no doubt that the improvement is as obvious in 1st, 2nd and 3rd gear as well. Before making a decision one way or the other, spend some time searching this site (and others) on butterfly removal and ECU reflash to learn what others are saying on both. It will be time well spent.
Bob
Another question re: the secondary flies; if I were to go the full Power Commander Route with map loaded from say Fuel Moto or any reputable fuel manager dealer for a "flies in" C14, could I expect anywhere close to similar performance gains that I'd get from a Re-Flash that tweaks fuel AND tells the ECU to by pass the flies or open them sooner?
I'm sure that the map would only be AFR adjustments mapped to my bike with the V&H slip on with no affect on the secondary flies opening sooner, so could I expect anywhere close to similar performance gains that I'd get from a Re-Flash that tweaks fuel AND tells the ECU to by pass the flies or open them sooner?
Seems it should easy enough with a PC 5 and a good tuner to meet or exceed anyones ECU flash, but I can't get past how impressive that very simple modification is, even though I will have V&H CS1 aftermarket slip on can by the time I send the ECU, (if thats the route I take), am I correct in that assumption; a full PC5 tune on the dyno would exceed a simple ECU flash? Is it expected that tuners alter the secondary flies as part of a PC 5 tune?
I'm sure that the map would only be AFR adjustments mapped to my bike with the V&H slip on with no affect on the secondary flies opening sooner, so could I expect anywhere close to similar performance gains that I'd get from a Re-Flash that tweaks fuel AND tells the ECU to by pass the flies or open them sooner?
Seems it should easy enough with a PC 5 and a good tuner to meet or exceed anyones ECU flash, but I can't get past how impressive that very simple modification is, even though I will have V&H CS1 aftermarket slip on can by the time I send the ECU, (if thats the route I take), am I correct in that assumption; a full PC5 tune on the dyno would exceed a simple ECU flash? Is it expected that tuners alter the secondary flies as part of a PC 5 tune?
Jagman said:
You've asked several questions in your post in different ways, so it's going to be a bit tough to answer them all, but yes you will see some gains from using just a PCV and a proper tune and no other adjustments done to the bike. However, the amount of low end torque gains from just a PCV won't compare to what you get with the butterflies either removed, or remapped in the ECU. If you want the WHOLE ENCHILADA, you need to both remap the fuel AND open the butterflies sooner (or take them out altogether).
A PCV tune has no advantage over an ECU reflash. But an ECU reflash has several advantages over a PCV tune, because it can do more than just change the fuel map, like changing the butterfly map, changing the speed limiter function, and even adjust the timing tables if you want to. The other real beauty of an ECU reflash is you don't have to hook up additional electronics to the bike that adds another failure point in the fuel system, and also introduces tolerance errors of its own into the fuel pulses.
The only advantage of a PCV tune is that there have been more of them developed for different configurations (exhast, air filter, flies in, flies out etc), so you may be more likely to find an off-the-shelf canned PCV tune that would better fit your particular configuration. However, most of the PCV tunes for this bike were developed by Fuel Moto, and not only are they proprietary, but Fuel Moto has pretty much stopped doing any further work on the C14, and I'm not aware of any tunes they have done for the 2010/11 bikes, which are a bit different from the 08/09. It appears that Jamie at Fuel Moto has given up on the C14 crowd and is now focusing all his attention on Harleys instead.
The BEST tune, be it from a PCV or a ECU reflash, would be one that was made on a dyno for your bike. Another acceptable way to make your own tune is to install an auto-tuner with a wideband sensor in the exhaust and make your own maps on the fly. However, the auto-tune adds more cost to the PCV and you'll have to remove the header and get a bung welded into it for the wideband 02 sensor.
But the only real way to answer your questions about which would provide the most gains would be to get dyno runs done of a bike with a PCV tune in the configuration you're interested in using and comparing them to dyno runs of an ECU reflash.
Personally, I would chose an ECU reflash over a Power Commander and tune any day of the week. I just think all around its a much better solution. And if we can get some more folks to take bikes to Guhl Motors for dyno testing, they should be able to start to build up a database of ECU tunes specific to some of the popular exhaust pipes and configurations that others will be able to use.
Thank you Fred. I was trying to get all my questions asked and ended up pasting some of the basic same questions so thanks for indulging me. I guess I keep coming back to trying to avoid removing the ECU and doing without the bike, even though I have another to ride, I have fallen in love with this incredible motorcycle. Yet I believe it is the way to go and I agree that another electrical component on the bike is not something I'm crazy about. I've never used a PC only TTS and SERT, and one short experiment with an auto tuner. Power Commander does have maps on their site for a 10-11 Connie with a Two Brothers slip on, so that should suffice for the VH CS1 that I'm installing if I needed to send it to Guhl. I've ended up doing engine modifications to all of previous 3 motorcycles so I do enjoy maximizing the overall rideability of a given bike, but at the same time I have to say my 2011 runs so smooth and strong that maybe I should ride it for a while. It pulls and pulls through all gears for me and is silky smooth. Almost to the point where every time I ride it with the stock exhaust I like it so much I start to have doubts about installing the VH slip on
mick6777 said:
Mick- You might want to hold off for a couple of days until I get my bike back down there to try out Fred's latest mapping changes. I plan to call Don (Guhl) today and set something up for his first available opportunity. As soon as I get it scheduled, I'll let everyone know, and the results will be posted by Fred or myself as soon as the mod is dyno tested.
Bob
By the way the other place offering reflash is Dynotronics. I sent my ECU to them yesterday since they said they had maps for a C14 with an aftermarket can. My 2010 C14 is down due to a hydroplane accident but I will give some feedback hopefully in a few weeks on the reflash and using a V&H CS One with a quiet insert.