Throttle by wire on 2012 Voyager

[Fred H.]

Wanna hear something really stupid? Read the following explaination of the throttle by wire system on the new Vulcan 1700 Voyager.

Fully electronic throttle actuation system enables the ECU to control the volume of intake air (via throttle valve angle) and fuel (via fuel injector timing) delivered to the engine
• Optimized fuel injector timing and throttle valve position result in accurate, powerful engine response
• Control of both fuel injection and airflow provides easy starting and precise cold-engine idle speed control
• From the rider’s perspective, the ETV works like a standard cable-operated throttle; the throttle grip is still connected to cables, so the feel at the grip is the same
• Twisting the throttle turns a pulley on the throttle body which triggers the Accelerator Position Sensor (APS) to send a signal to the ECU, which then modulates the throttle valves via a DC motor
• Accurate throttle position is relayed to the ECU by a Throttle Position Sensor (TPS)
• APS and TPS send two sets of signals to the ECU for system redundancy in the unlikely event of a sensor failure

So lemme get this straight. You connect the throttle cables to the throttle body, but instead of having them open and close the throttle blades, you instead connect them to a sensor that the ECU reads, and then let the ECU control a stepper motor to open and close them electronically.    :-[

I suppose this might make it easier to implement a cruise control on the bike, but it sure seems like it would introduce many more potential failure points in the system.

 

[jagman]

WOW...I mean just wow.  That is truly stupid.

 

[mrpepsi]

Sounds like something the government would do.
However, I wonder how throttle by wire works on other cars.
I wonder if its the same way.

 

[bmcush]

I'm not to comfortable with that thought either but I think Dodge diesel trucks have been doing it for years

 

[mrpepsi]

Many cars nowadays are throttle by wire, I'm just curious if they do it any different.


[quote author=How Stuff Works]
Throttle-by-wire -- Throttle-by-wire, or accelerate-by-wire, was the first type of drive-by-wire system introduced. These systems use a pedal unit and an engine management system. The pedal uses sensors that measure how much or how little the driver moves the accelerator, and the sensors send that information to the engine management system. The engine management system is a computer that, among other tasks, determines how much fuel is required, and it provides this input to an actuator -- a device that converts energy into mechanical motion. The pedal could be the same pedal drivers have become accustomed to using today, an easy-to-reach pad placed near the foot that's pressed down in order to accelerate the car. The same operation could also be incorporated into a joystick or videogame-like controller, which would get rid of the need for a foot pedal completely. Of course, this would require drivers to use their hands for acceleration, braking and steering.
[/quote]

Now if I bike had brake by wire, I'd start getting nervous. I guess our ABS bikes sort of do.

 

[2linby]

Gee and here I am thinking that all this time I already had "Throttle by wire".  I mean aren't the throttle cables made from "wires" to begin with?    :rotflmao:

 

[Gypsy JR]

Want to really get a laugh?

The high end 2012 Harley Davidson bikes like the CVO Ultra Classic Electa Glide have true electronic throttle and cruise control. They are connected to the ECU only, and to that by CAN Bus, not just analog wire pairs.

You can't even retrofit that to your C14, can you? The only electronic cruise control for the ZX14, unless you want to build from a kit, still has an actuator attached to your TB pulley shaft. So its at least partly mechanical.

I'm surprised 

 

[Gypsy JR]

Fully electronic throttle actuation system enables the ECU to control the volume of intake air (via throttle valve angle) and fuel (via fuel injector timing) delivered to the engine
• Optimized fuel injector timing and throttle valve position result in accurate, powerful engine response
• Control of both fuel injection and airflow provides easy starting and precise cold-engine idle speed control
• From the rider’s perspective, the ETV works like a standard cable-operated throttle; the throttle grip is still connected to cables, so the feel at the grip is the same
• Twisting the throttle turns a pulley on the throttle body which triggers the Accelerator Position Sensor (APS) to send a signal to the ECU, which then modulates the throttle valves via a DC motor
• Accurate throttle position is relayed to the ECU by a Throttle Position Sensor (TPS)
• APS and TPS send two sets of signals to the ECU for system redundancy in the unlikely event of a sensor failure

Thats a ZX14 engine... oh wait, you are talking about a Voyager. My mistake.

Your C14s work a lot like that too, being the same basic engine as my ZX14. The throttle cables (push/pull) actuate the throttle pulley, and a TPS signal is sent to the ECU. The ECU (and piggy if you have one) tells the injectors what to do. The opening of the main butterflies (not the secondaries, they are under ECU control) is actuated solely off the throttle pulley, isn't it?

 

[Shoegoo]

I don't like this idea because this kind of stuff tends to migrate throughout a company's model lineup. And eventually other manufacturer's will imitate the idea. 

If throttle by wire is the goal then why not have the position sensor at the throttle grip with a wire to the ecu? Perhaps only to have some spring tension and that would be hard to place at the grips with out being obtrusive.

Glad there will not be a Vulcan in my future.

 

[Steve in sunny Fla]

I agree with Shoe. The FBW sending unit is a potentiometer. Could easily be placed in the grip housing. Some type of radial spring tension needs to be in place to help the rider control throttle opening, but the cable system is pretty dumb. Steve

 

[norm9688]

Sounds like something the government would do.
However, I wonder how throttle by wire works on other cars.
I wonder if its the same way.

There is a pair of sensors in the gas pedal that signal the ECM the throttle position and the ECM controls the throttle blade with a stepper motor to open and close the throttle. There are no throttle cables on most vehicles anymore. GM, Ford, Chrysler, Honda, Nissan, Toyota and most other MFG have been using throttle-by-wire for many years now. I first saw it on the Acura NSX when it came out in 1990. Formula 1 has been using it for many years. The rig on the bike posted by Fred seems overly complicated, just go true throttle by wire.

 

[rev ryder]

Fully electronic throttle actuation system enables the ECU to control the volume of intake air (via throttle valve angle) and fuel (via fuel injector timing) delivered to the engine
• Optimized fuel injector timing and throttle valve position result in accurate, powerful engine response
• Control of both fuel injection and airflow provides easy starting and precise cold-engine idle speed control
• From the rider’s perspective, the ETV works like a standard cable-operated throttle; the throttle grip is still connected to cables, so the feel at the grip is the same
• Twisting the throttle turns a pulley on the throttle body which triggers the Accelerator Position Sensor (APS) to send a signal to the ECU, which then modulates the throttle valves via a DC motor
• Accurate throttle position is relayed to the ECU by a Throttle Position Sensor (TPS)
• APS and TPS send two sets of signals to the ECU for system redundancy in the unlikely event of a sensor failure

Thats a ZX14 engine... oh wait, you are talking about a Voyager. My mistake.

Your C14s work a lot like that too, being the same basic engine as my ZX14. The throttle cables (push/pull) actuate the throttle pulley, and a TPS signal is sent to the ECU. The ECU (and piggy if you have one) tells the injectors what to do. The opening of the main butterflies (not the secondaries, they are under ECU control) is actuated solely off the throttle pulley, isn't it?

No, it's different Privateer.  On your bike the cable operated pully actually controls the throttle blade movement. In drive by wire, as in the described case, the throttle blade movement is controled by a motor.  In this case, there are cables to the throttle body and pulley, but the pulley only operates the potentiometer that tells the ECU the throttle input and it, in turn, actuates the stepper motor to emulate that input to move the throttle blades.  The crazy thing is to take cables to the TB in the first place since the only thing they actually do is send input to the ECU.  As Steve said, a potentiometer at the throttle handle would eliminate any need for the dumb cables to the TBs.  It really seems stupid to do it the way they did on the new Voyager.  Most DBW cars use a potentiometer connected directly to the foot feed (throttle pedal) to send the signal.  Why not this bike?  I suppose the "feel" or feedback might be better with the cables, but additional cost, potential for malfuntion, and more crap to move when doing maintenance should tremendously outweigh any negatives I'd think.  It's just goofy.

 

[rev ryder]

Of course the true TPS will still need to be connected to the throttle blade shaft so that the ECU will have a true reading of that opening as the throttle input signal may be "processed" and not truly reflect what the throttle blades are doing.  Most bikes have two TPS so the the ECU can monitor and adjust the secondary flies and thus override the primary flies and TPS.  THis would give you a total of three sensors reading throttle position... the actual throttle input sensor and the two TPS sensors attached one each to teh primary butterfly shaft and the secondary butterfly shaft.  In the Voyager's case the input sensor is attached to the throttle pulley at the Throttle Body and not on any butterfly shaft.  Silly.

 

[Gypsy JR]

No, it's different Privateer.  On your bike the cable operated pully actually controls the throttle blade movement. In drive by wire, as in the described case, the throttle blade movement is controled by a motor. 

I'm not saying the ZX14 or C14 is drive by wire. I'm explaining how it actually works. The push-pull cable on the ZX14 opens the main butterflies, and sends a signal to the ECU. The ECU operates the injectors and the secondary butterflies.

The Harley Davidson CVO 2012 bikes are drive-by-wire at the cruise control level, and I think at the throttle level too.

 

[rev ryder]

Sorry Privateer.  I guess I misunderstood you.  :beerchug:

 

[mcgyver74]

This system makes NO sense at all..if you are going to do Throttle by wire (and there are a lot of advantages to it,  for instance they can program the ECU to get rid of the "Jerkiness" that fuel injection tends to introduce since the stepper motor will be FAR smoother then your wrist could ever be consistantly)  do it like cars do,  put the sensor IN the twistgrip and just run Canbus wires to ECU and let it control the stepper motor...less to go wrong and doesn't require cables etc... but having a cable connected to a sensor is just plain dumb!...

 

[Gypsy JR]

Putting the sensor in the grip is what Harley Davidson does on the CVO bikes. They also run their cruice control by interfacing with the ECU only.

 

[Cra-z1000]

Sounds like something the government would do.
However, I wonder how throttle by wire works on other cars.
I wonder if its the same way.

There is a pair of sensors in the gas pedal that signal the ECM the throttle position and the ECM controls the throttle blade with a stepper motor to open and close the throttle. There are no throttle cables on most vehicles anymore. GM, Ford, Chrysler, Honda, Nissan, Toyota and most other MFG have been using throttle-by-wire for many years now. I first saw it on the Acura NSX when it came out in 1990. Formula 1 has been using it for many years. The rig on the bike posted by Fred seems overly complicated, just go true throttle by wire.

I'm ok with drive by wire in cars but I think there's just way too much on the line to have it on a bike .

 

[Tim R]

Sounds like something the government would do.
However, I wonder how throttle by wire works on other cars.
I wonder if its the same way.

There is a pair of sensors in the gas pedal that signal the ECM the throttle position and the ECM controls the throttle blade with a stepper motor to open and close the throttle. There are no throttle cables on most vehicles anymore. GM, Ford, Chrysler, Honda, Nissan, Toyota and most other MFG have been using throttle-by-wire for many years now. I first saw it on the Acura NSX when it came out in 1990. Formula 1 has been using it for many years. The rig on the bike posted by Fred seems overly complicated, just go true throttle by wire.

I'm ok with drive by wire in cars but I think there's just way too much on the line to have it on a bike .

We have jet fighters with fly by wire.........just say in

 

[Cap'n Bob]

Yeah, I know General Dynamics were using fly by wire on the F-16 when it came out in the late 70's.

 

[Cra-z1000]

Sounds like something the government would do.
However, I wonder how throttle by wire works on other cars.
I wonder if its the same way.

There is a pair of sensors in the gas pedal that signal the ECM the throttle position and the ECM controls the throttle blade with a stepper motor to open and close the throttle. There are no throttle cables on most vehicles anymore. GM, Ford, Chrysler, Honda, Nissan, Toyota and most other MFG have been using throttle-by-wire for many years now. I first saw it on the Acura NSX when it came out in 1990. Formula 1 has been using it for many years. The rig on the bike posted by Fred seems overly complicated, just go true throttle by wire.

I'm ok with drive by wire in cars but I think there's just way too much on the line to have it on a bike .

We have jet fighters with fly by wire.........just say in

Yes sir , and jets are equiped with eject seats and parachutes .  I've often thought an eject seat could be a good thing on a bike...

 

[Cap'n Bob]

Sounds like something the government would do.
However, I wonder how throttle by wire works on other cars.
I wonder if its the same way.

There is a pair of sensors in the gas pedal that signal the ECM the throttle position and the ECM controls the throttle blade with a stepper motor to open and close the throttle. There are no throttle cables on most vehicles anymore. GM, Ford, Chrysler, Honda, Nissan, Toyota and most other MFG have been using throttle-by-wire for many years now. I first saw it on the Acura NSX when it came out in 1990. Formula 1 has been using it for many years. The rig on the bike posted by Fred seems overly complicated, just go true throttle by wire.

I'm ok with drive by wire in cars but I think there's just way too much on the line to have it on a bike .

We have jet fighters with fly by wire.........just say in

Yes sir , and jets are equiped with eject seats and parachutes .  I've often thought an eject seat could be a good thing on a bike...

It might have saved my butt when I had nowhere to go and wrecked my first C10. The out come was not good! 

 

[txfatboy]

Most likely they used the cables connected to the throttle body/ TPS so they could use existing components and not re-engineer the throttle/grip assembly. How many times has Ma Kaw demonstrated her want to save a buck by using the parts bin instead of improving/replacing what was needed.....?