Trail Braking and Linked Brakes (pot stiring potential = MAX)

[fartymarty]

Well this could be like an oil or tire thread eh? That's not my intent however, just looking for info and thoughts.

It seems to me that there are several opinions as to what it really is. Trail braking I mean. So I would like this discussion to address two things (yeah, like I'll have any control on which way it goes  :rotflmao

1) Just what is trail braking??

2) For those with less skilled right hands, could linked brakes be a big aid in it's execution?


I have seen several post where someone has posted that they trail brake with the rear brake and thus linked brakes are not for them.
However from what I've read, front braking is more important to trail braking than the rear because it (a) lowers the front end changing the steering angle to enhance turning and (b) loads the front tire to increase the size of the contact patch. I took a rider's course (Park's Total Control) where we were supposed to practice slowly letting off the throttle while at the same time gradually increase the front brake pressure. The idea (as I took it to be) was to keep the rear end of the bike low (by keeping the throttle on slightly) and lower the front at the same time and sort of just make the bike squat through the turn. We were trying to practice doing do this without actually turning. We were then supposed to do the reverse simulating coming out of the turn, that is slowly increasing the throttle and slowly releasing the front brake. Well with the twitchyness of my C14  throttle, I had considerable trouble just getting the throttle to back off. I tried and tried without even attempting the brakes at all and at some point it would just "shut down" and unload or raise the rear end. Regardless, for the sake of argument let's assume that I had a throttle tamer installed and I was able to accomplish the throttle work successfully, however I found that slowly letting off the throttle while slowly increasing the front brake pressure and then reversing it was a major pain in the hand/mind. I suppose that eventually I'd get better at it, but I could probably also get better at hitting my self in the head with a hammer without causing a concussion if I practiced it. I pretty much told the instructor if this technique was required to ride a motorcycle, then I'd be riding a Can-AM Spyder.

Right now I decelerate before the turn, either by just backing off or releasing the throttle or when riding more aggressively by braking with both brakes (well with linked brakes, how else, but I use both as though the link isn't there) and I have a low throttle (not idle) applied and increase that slowly throughout the turn. Even with my inability/no desire to do it as instructed in the course, it does make sense to me that it would make turning faster and more stable. I was thinking that perhaps with linked brakes I should start using just the rear brake pedal and the throttle together (perhaps even in the high setting  :-\ ), and see if that is doable for me.

I hope I'm typing this clearly, again I have two questions.

1. What exactly is trail braking? Is there really a definite answer, or is this like asking what's the best motor oil?

2. If trail braking involves simultaneous precision throttle and front brake work, can those less skilled like my self ( I can't shuffle a deck of cards with one hand either) actually come close enough with just using the linked brake foot pedal and the throttle together to improve their cornering?

If either of these questions have been asked and answered, can I get a brake thread link?

 

[Stevewfl]

Trail braking is where the brakes are used beyond the entrance to a turn and are gradually released up to the point of apex.

You can do this simple procedure any way you like  ;D

 

[Ranger Jim]

Ken Condon defines trail braking in his excellent book RIDING IN THE ZONE thusly, "Trail braking is the act of braking while leaning into a turn, then gradually releasing ("trailing") the brakes as lean angle increases until there is zero brake pressure at full lean." He goes on to say that this is a planned maneuver most appropriate for racers and that trail braking is not recommended for typical street riding situations.

IMO, most riders do not have the skill to effectively perform trail braking just as they do not have the skill to perform maximum effort braking (sans ABS). Again, IMO, trail braking is better left to the track, spend your efforts learning to ride more smoothly, brake to the appropriate entry speed (a speed that will allow you to accelerate through the turn), use the proper line and look where you want to go.

 

[gpink]

From Keith Code... http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=4034&hl=%2Btrail+%2Bbraking

 

[slybonesjesse]

Gonna get lots of opinions on this one.

You could take Lee Parks Total Control level 2 where you learn trail braking and practice it on for decreasing radius turns and things like that.

Myself I have understood it like stevewfl mentioned as deceleration from the entrance of the turn to the apex. Interesting read on the Keith Code link. I have kinda always thought that since the goal is to setup before the turn and roll on the throttle as soon as possible there isn't much room for trail braking as your on the throttle. However I can see the need to make adjustments for decreasing radius turns, rocks on the road, etc  that you might find as the turn progresses. -- I never thought of trail braking as maximum effort braking.

Well after finishing the Keith Code interview for the second time, it seems this would be a planned deceleration for specific cases where it makes sense. Not an all the time thing. Also mentions braking after leaning over to adjust for rocks like I was thinking is not trail braking per say, as its not planned. That is something different. Cool read.

 

[Flat-spot]

I gotta go with Ranger Jim on this one.  Trail braking is best left to the track.  There are too many nasty variables on the street that can take ya down.  I have practiced it on a very large parking lot with fresh pavement as well as one very nice, banked, visually wide open, smooth curve that I know very well.  Enough to know that it would take me many, many hours on a race track to become proficient at it. On the street it's a low-side waiting to bite ya.

 

[fartymarty]

......spend your efforts learning to ride more smoothly, brake to the appropriate entry speed (a speed that will allow you to accelerate through the turn), use the proper line and look where you want to go.

Good, I feel better as this is what I do (or try to do) now. I don't always do it well, especially in right handers where I can't always see that far through it because of trees or rock walls. On those I'm usually going at a steady speed (not accelerating through the whole turn) because I have no idea where the end is. Unlike a track turn, the exact location of the apex isn't always clear to me until after I'm out of it when I'm on the road. I guess that's another subject though unrelated to trail braking.

Trail braking is where the brakes are used beyond the entrance to a turn and are gradually released up to the point of apex.

I could do that as well, that doesn't seem that difficult. It was the simultaneous gradual reducing of the throttle and gradual increase in braking
followed by the reverse that was so cumbersome to me. Basically trying to do two things with one hand and both of them needing to be done
with some precision.

I would show a graph that represents what the Total control course was saying about trail braking, but I can't find one online and I'm sure if I scanned it from my
book to post here, that I would be doing some sort of copyright infringement. It's on page 62 in my edition.

Thanks gPink for the link, it was interesting. Maybe this thread won't be as long as I thought it might be. 

 

[gpink]

I'm not sure how trail braking would work with a car tire. It might be all right if it was filled with nitrogen...or dyna beads. 

 

[fartymarty]

I'm not sure how trail braking would work with a car tire. It might be all right if it was filled with nitrogen...or dyna beads. 

Only works if it has brand X synthetic oil. The other brands slosh too much and it throws off the balance. That only applies
to wet sumps of course.  :043:

 

[ddback]

I'm not sure how trail braking would work with a car tire. It might be all right if it was filled with nitrogen...or dyna beads. 

Only works if it has brand X synthetic oil. The other brands slosh too much and it throws off the balance. That only applies
to wet sumps of course.  :043:

I assume you meant "brand X TIRE oil, one that is compatible with DynaBeads"

:rotflmao:  I kill me!

 

[fartymarty]

I assume you meant "brand X TIRE oil, one that is compatible with DynaBeads"

:rotflmao:  I kill me!

Well of course! Goes without saying, that's why I didn't.   

 

[Daytona_Mike]

I think some people think 'Trail' means 'Tail'. One guy last year at the National Rally told me  he was 'Trail braking' to bleed off speed. I knew he did not know what 'Trail Braking' meant because he said he was using only  the rear brake. Anyway, he crashed and I believe  he  said he totaled the bike.
As far as the rear brake goes- I have never  touched the rear brake pedal when doing track days.  I dont even use  it while riding on the street unless I am in a parking lot and there is sand.

 

[fartymarty]

I think some people think 'Trail' means 'Tail'. One guy last year at the National Rally told me  he was 'Trail braking' to bleed off speed. I knew he did not know what 'Trail Braking' meant because he said he was using only  the rear brake. Anyway, he crashed and I believe  he  said he totaled the bike.

That's what I've read in some forum posts but nothing else I could find would agree with that, so it's one of the reason's I asked the question.

As far as the rear brake goes- I have never  touched the rear brake pedal when doing track days.

Mike, couple of questions for you, (1) On track days are you doing some sort of trailing off on the throttle while you are increasing the front brake pressure and then a reverse of that as you approach the apex? (combined vs separate actions) (2) If your track bike had linked brakes (does it?) would it negatively effect your turning that much to have some rear brake applied when you only squeezed the front lever?

 

[Ranger Jim]

You have to understand how linked brakes work. I don't know about C 14s but on my Goldwing, applying the rear brake gives me full braking power on the rear caliper and braking on one (of two) front calipers. Applying the front brake gives me full power on both front calipers and one piston on the rear. Also on the 'wing, when you apply only the rear brake you don't get any noticable effects at the front brakes unless you apply significant pressure so low speed maneuvering is unaffected.

Given that you are "trailing" off the braking pressure, I don't think the linked system would have any real effects.

 

[2linby]

And here i though this had something to do with the boy scouts  :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

 

[laketrax]

You have to understand how linked brakes work. I don't know about C 14s but on my Goldwing, applying the rear brake gives me full braking power on the rear caliper and braking on one (of two) front calipers. Applying the front brake gives me full power on both front calipers and one piston on the rear. Also on the 'wing, when you apply only the rear brake you don't get any noticable effects at the front brakes unless you apply significant pressure so low speed maneuvering is unaffected.

Given that you are "trailing" off the braking pressure, I don't think the linked system would have any real effects.

That's the bummer with the C14 though Jim...
The C14's linked-brakes aren't nearly as transparent as the GL's.
Or any other Honda I've ridden for that matter-

A year or two ago I finally got around to installing tapered steering-head bearings/rebuilding the forks on my dad's GL1800. Also disabled the anti-dive and installed Progressive springs while I was in there. Could not believe how dirty the fork oil in the anti-dive side was vs. the other. :-\
World of difference-

The problem I have w/ my C14's linked brakes is this:
Whenever I'm on the front brakes first(hard/soft & 95% of braking time), the rear brake then becomes hard to modulate.
It's nothing, nothing, nothing... then everything!
When I pedal the rear(with front brakes applied first), there is a "sudden threshold" that makes the front bite harder than I wanted it to-
Guess I've just learned to ride around it.... and it's not the end of the world. Definitely a nuisance though-

Give me a selectable on/off varying ABS system without it being linked.
That's all I want-

I could be like Stoner or Hayden... if it weren't for the linked-brakes & sloppy throttle cables. )

This is as close as I get to stirin' it up:
Bob Marley - Stir it up

 

[boomer]

I dunno about "Trail" braking but I often use the rear brake to settle the rear down going into a corner.
We have a LOT of varying radius corners here in Europe and the rear brake is damned useful when you have misjudged a corner and need to change line and speed mid corner.
Try doing that with the front brake and the bike stands up and in some areas you are in for 5 seconds of terror before the fatal impact.
Personally I don't push hard on mountain twisties but being able to use some rear brake with NO front brake is a must for me.
I guess it's all down to how you learned to ride. Mine was offroad and there rear brakes are part of the steering.
Linked brakes are probably good for most road riders but I have yet to ride a bike fitted with them that I liked.
The C14 system is not as bad as the early Honda ones (early CBR1000 Hurricane) but is worse than the newer Honda C-ABS systems (CBR1000RR).
YMMV and IMHO as always. 

 

[Daytona_Mike]

I think some people think 'Trail' means 'Tail'. One guy last year at the National Rally told me  he was 'Trail braking' to bleed off speed. I knew he did not know what 'Trail Braking' meant because he said he was using only  the rear brake. Anyway, he crashed and I believe  he  said he totaled the bike.

That's what I've read in some forum posts but nothing else I could find would agree with that, so it's one of the reason's I asked the question.

As far as the rear brake goes- I have never  touched the rear brake pedal when doing track days.

Mike, couple of questions for you, (1) On track days are you doing some sort of trailing off on the throttle while you are increasing the front brake pressure and then a reverse of that as you approach the apex? (combined vs separate actions) (2) If your track bike had linked brakes (does it?) would it negatively effect your turning that much to have some rear brake applied when you only squeezed the front lever?

I would never  use the rear brake on the track. I have never heard or seen a track bike or any race bikes with linked braking. If the bike originally did it was removed when made into a track bike. Braking is done so late and so hard  on a race track that the the rear wheel is completely unloaded and some times not even touching the ground. Watch a Moto GP race. Those guys are beyond amazing.  Either the front is in the air or the rear wheel is in the air.
The first things I learned  on my first track day with my C10  of all things to take on a track is what is called ' Going Agricultural' or ' An off road tour'.  The first  time was when I chopped the throttle off  (panic and fear  is the enemy on a track) so no steering so off the road I went. The second time was hitting the brake too fast (always start out easy and then squeeze harder) so the bike nose dived (nose dove?), no steering so 'Agricultural' again.  Smooth when going  on the gas, smooth when going on the brake - do not upset the bike- You learn quick on the track.
Trail braking is :  increasing the the throttle while you are decreasing the front brake pressure  as and while  you are entering a turn. Then you are on the throttle (either holding the speed or increasing  speed depending on the turn)all the way to  the apex then more throttle when you reach the apex because your now coming out of the turn. I am not good at it but I try  and  and I practice it  and as  I try be  smooth and carry more speed deeper  into  a turn along with a ton of other stuff all going on at the same time like keeping the revs up near the  red line at all  times. Keep in mind that I am not a young guy and pretty new to track days. I am lucky to have a very good friend who lets me ride his tracked  GSXR1000. Great bike-
I will never forget the first time I had a knee down and it was at Barber- one of the finest tracks there is in North America.

 

[Stevewfl]

I'm not sure how trail braking would work with a car tire. It might be all right if it was filled with nitrogen...or dyna beads. 

^^^^  I knew this thread would go into a real direction sooner or later  :great:

c'mon guys, let's stop talking about trail braking and go try it on a  ride or track day. Nothing to it and reduces lap times  :beerchug:

 

[Stevewfl]

I would never  use the rear brake on the track. I have never heard or seen a track bike or any race bikes with linked braking. If the bike originally did it was removed when made into a track bike. Braking is done so late and so hard  on a race track that the the rear wheel is completely unloaded and some times not even touching the ground. Watch a Moto GP race. Those guys are beyond amazing.  Either the front is in the air or the rear wheel is in the air.
The first things I learned  on my first track day with my C10  of all things to take on a track is what is called ' Going Agricultural' or ' An off road tour'.  The first  time was when I chopped the throttle off  (panic and fear  is the enemy on a track) so no steering so off the road I went. The second time was hitting the brake too fast (always start out easy and then squeeze harder) so the bike nose dived (nose dove?), no steering so 'Agricultural' again.  Smooth when going  on the gas, smooth when going on the brake - do not upset the bike- You learn quick on the track.
Trail braking is :  increasing the the throttle while you are decreasing the front brake pressure  as and while  you are entering a turn. Then you are on the throttle (either holding the speed or increasing  speed depending on the turn)all the way to  the apex then more throttle when you reach the apex because your now coming out of the turn. I am not good at it but I try  and  and I practice it  and as  I try be  smooth and carry more speed deeper  into  a turn along with a ton of other stuff all going on at the same time like keeping the revs up near the  red line at all  times. Keep in mind that I am not a young guy and pretty new to track days. I am lucky to have a very good friend who lets me ride his tracked  GSXR1000. Great bike-
I will never forget the first time I had a knee down and it was at Barber- one of the finest tracks there is in North America.

^^^then you are giving up some of the bikes major handling and stopping capabilities it offers, and increasing your lap times.

As a rider’s skill set on a motorcycle improves though, a new love affair is found with the rear brake. Talk to any professional motorcycle racer about their rear brake, and you will begin to realize there is a huge role that the rear brake plays in bike stability, which at times makes no sense to a layman — something exemplified by Casey Stoner’s frequent use of the rear brake while also hard on the throttle.

 

[ddback]

Mine was offroad and there rear brakes are part of the steering

THIS.

I've said it a number of times before - I also mountain bike, so very low speeds (relative to motorcycling) which gives you a LOT more time through corners/curves to observe how a two-wheeled machine behaves.

Many mountain bikes today are just like super-lightweight, un-motorized motorcycles - with fully tunable suspensions and hydraulic disc brakes (I will never ride without hydraulic brakes!). Just TOUCH the front brake in a (fast) downhill corner and see how quickly you find a tree on the OUTSIDE of a corner-a mountain bike will stand right up like Boomer said, while riding/dragging the rear brake slightly will make the bike turn-in faster while also pre-loading the rear shock (keeping the suspension loaded, so no sudden CG shifts).

It's been quite surprising to me how much my time mountain biking (while I didn't have a motorcycle) kept my riding skills and techniques fresh.

 

[Daytona_Mike]

I am in no way anywhere near a professional racer and when my instructor says : Dont touch the rear brake or you will high-side- Gear down and use engine braking-' I listen.  I am a long long long way away  from hard on the throttle and using the rear  brake at the same time.
I would gladly give up lap times to prevent another high side. Those are not fun.
But you guys are correct about using the  throttle and the rear brake at the same time causing the bike to squat more which is important.
I think  I may have this Trail Braking thing all wrong or partly  wrong.  Looks like I need more track time and more instruction.

By the way- the fella who told me he was trail braking and crashed was riding a Harley. He wasnt using any throttle and most likely locked the rear wheel and  stalled the engine.

 

[ddback]

I am in no way anywhere near a professional racer and when my instructor says : Dont touch the rear brake or you will high-side- Gear down and use engine braking-' I listen.   I am a long long long way away  from hard on the throttle and using the rear  brake at the same time.
I would gladly give up lap times to prevent another high side. Those are not fun.
But you guys are correct about using the  throttle and the rear brake at the same time causing the bike to squat more which is important.
I think  I may have this Trail Braking thing all wrong or partly  wrong.  Looks like I need more track time and more instruction.

By the way- the fella who told me he was trail braking and crashed was riding a Harley. He wasnt using any throttle and most likely locked the rear wheel and  stalled the engine.

I think the instructor is right...for beginning track riders. Technically if you ONLY used the rear brake and then did you would probably low side as the tail slides out (it could still high side if you were going fast enough, etc). What he's saying is that for the new/novice track rider using the rear brake entering a curve will induce a rear-wheel slide, and the instinctive reaction is to let off the rear brake and then the rear wheel suddenly grabs again inducing a high side - just the same as a bike sliding out from the rear wheel suddenly losing traction in a curve (like in the rain).

It takes intentional practice to NOT let off the throttle when the rear wheel starts sliding in a curve, and rather steer through the slide while maintaining/subtly modulating throttle. Chopping the throttle will induce a high-side (this has been discussed before).

So while I agree with the instructor, he's only giving the first half of the story, with the second half being "for a new track rider, never get on the rear brake in a corner - the proper techniques for using the rear brake in the corner will be covered in the advanced classes".

Using the rear brake to pre-load the suspension is very similar to car racing where you tap the brakes lightly before a corner (while still on the throttle) to "settle" the suspension (preload/reduce suspension travel), otherwise you may get all that suspension travel (and CG change) all at once when you decelerate to enter the corner, which then overloads the front tires causing understeer.

Try it with a street car when entering freeway ramps. If you grew up driving 1960's Land Yachts (or have one available for testing, say an Oldsmobile 98 with a 455 big block) you really know the difference between just driving into a corner vs preloading the suspension.  :motonoises:

 

[fartymarty]

Well now I'm even more confused than I was before. What's all this "settling the rear end" talk, is your rear end hopping around before the turns? Mine doesn't. It kind of reminds me of strange mojo talk like "Luke, you must become one with the force"....so please include specifics if you would be so kind to explain what "settling" the rear end means. If it means lowering (like coffee grounds settle in boiled coffee) then I need to hear how that happens as it seems that the application of throttle would lower the rear end and application of rear brake would raise the rear. Obviously I'm missing something here.

I'm kind of sorry I asked Mike about the track technique as I got us off on a tangent, sorry. My original questions were in reference to road riding at a brisk pace, but not knee dragging in blind corners. The reason I brought them up was because of a course I took (Total Control Advanced Riding Clinic) which was aimed at street/highway riding and not a track course. According to the instructor of the course, and the book by Lee Parks, trail braking is the trailing off of throttle (not chopping it off) an ramping up of brake pressure followed by the reverse as the angle of bank increases. I was just wondering what others did. I under stand the trailing off of brake pressure as the bike leans more as there is only so much traction available and that the more lean you have the less brake traction is available. It was the inability on my part to do that with any precision (work the throttle and the front brake as per the courses instructions) that made me wonder if since the brakes are linked I could separate the two from my right hand and just use it to work the throttle and use the pedal to work the brakes. I would only attempt this on a bike with linked brakes.
Now some are also bringing up rear braking on a dirt bike, but I wasn't referring to dirt bikes and I don't see how they would relate at all to the street. On street/road riding one
is most concerned (when not encountering gravel in the turn) with the tire sliding across the immovable pavement, where in dirt riding one is more concerned with the "pavement" moving out from under the tire. To me it's totally different to the point of actually leaning (the rider, not the bike) in opposite directions for the two types of riding. (I hope I didn't get a second pot stirred up with that statement  :-[ ). 

 

[B.D.F.]

Adding a little (key word here- little) rear brake when in a turn will often noticeably stabilize the bike. It is especially noticeable on my C-14 when the bike is loaded and 2-up. Applying the rear brake adds drag to the back of the bike and tends to stabilize it in the identical but opposite way front brakes de- stabilize any vehicle. Think of it as the opposite of what causes a truck to jackknife: trying to stop a mass by applying braking to the front of the vehicle is an inherently de-stabilizing act; the back part of the vehicle resists stopping and will happily swing around the front of the vehicle to keep its velocity. Now think of the identical situation with rear brakes only applied; the front of the vehicle is effectively dragged down in velocity and all of physics wants to keep it in a straight line.

Of course none of this is a good idea if the bike is already using 95% of its tire adhesion due to lean. I am talking about reasonable street cornering here, especially on roads that are not perfectly flat.

Brian

Well now I'm even more confused than I was before. What's all this "settling the rear end" talk, is your rear end hopping around before the turns? Mine doesn't. It kind of reminds me of strange mojo talk like "Luke, you must become one with the force"....so please include specifics if you would be so kind to explain what "settling" the rear end means. If it means lowering (like coffee grounds settle in boiled coffee) then I need to hear how that happens as it seems that the application of throttle would lower the rear end and application of rear brake would raise the rear. Obviously I'm missing something here.

<snip>

 

[ddback]

Well now I'm even more confused than I was before. What's all this "settling the rear end" talk, is your rear end hopping around before the turns? Mine doesn't. It kind of reminds me of strange mojo talk like "Luke, you must become one with the force"....so please include specifics if you would be so kind to explain what "settling" the rear end means. If it means lowering (like coffee grounds settle in boiled coffee) then I need to hear how that happens as it seems that the application of throttle would lower the rear end and application of rear brake would raise the rear. Obviously I'm missing something here.

LOL...

When talking about "settling" or "preloading" the suspension we're referring to compressing the suspension some before entering a curve. It's all about momentum -  what happens (especially under hard acceleration-like racers shooting out of a curve and heading for the next), the rear suspension compresses from the engine torque through the rear wheel (picture them pulling a wheelie out of the corner - this happens when the rear suspension can't compress any farther, either from bottoming out or from high-rate springs), which moves the center of mass rearward (picture the frame of the bike as a teeter-totter with the rider's feet at the pivot point). When accelerating, (i.e. leaving a corner and running down a straight) the teeter-totter is tilted "backwards" (front is up more, forks extended, rear suspension compressed), and when entering the next corner they need the teeter to totter forward in a smooth transition (front suspension to compress smoothly as they decelerate into the corner) so as to not overload the front tire with a sudden deceleration.

With the rear suspension compressed and the front expanded, the center of mass of rider/bike has moved rearward slightly...if you chop throttle/grab front brake, the momentum of the bike/rider will move the center of mass forward quickly, compressing the forks and expanding the rear suspension. Which reducs force on the rear tire and increases it on the front (potentially overloading it if done too aggressively).

The goal is to make this momentum transition as smooth as possible so there isn't a sudden change for the tires. For a car, simply getting on the brakes while the throttle is open/accelerating will make the suspension start to compress before the turn, rather than in the turn.

I suspect on a motorcycle it's all about compressing the rear suspension (or keeping it from uncompressing too fast) so that there's a smoother transition to compressed forks as you decelerate into the turn.

This isn't much different than dragging the rear brake for slow parking lot maneuvers rather than using the front. The front will cause a much faster transition forward (compress forks, unload rear suspension), and force the front wheel to turn inward, while the rear brake will cause a much slower transition while compressing the rear suspension (which will produce a more neutral effect on the forks, rather than a sudden loading/compressing).

Of course, I may have all this wrong, but I've 'sperimented lots with cars and bikes. Preloading with a car makes a world of difference, I've gone so far as to increase the rear brake bias in cars so the rear end would tuck down more when entering corners, to reduce the dive from the front brakes. Some pickup trucks used to have a biasing valve on the rear axle that would open more as more weight was put in the bed (essentially a lever was moved by the sag of the bed) - this would allow the rear brakes to engage more. I've seen this same setup on some sportier sedans with rear disc.

HTH...maybe someone else can 'splain better, or has a link to a good page.

 

[fartymarty]

HTH...maybe someone else can 'splain better, or has a link to a good page.

I certainly hope so.......

..jes funnin ya JimBob, I appreciate all the typing you did, and a lot of what you said early on about the transition between acceleration
an braking being smoother is a good thing made sense. It is also what (I think) the course was trying to say with the simultaneous throttle
and front brake work was supposed to accomplish (that and make my right hand cramp). I suppose one could read into your post that you
made a good case for linked brakes?  ;D  (You brought cars into the mix and they got linked brakes. )

Adding a little (key word here- little) rear brake when in a turn will often noticeably stabilize the bike. It is especially noticeable on my C-14 when the bike is loaded and 2-up. Applying the rear brake adds drag to the back of the bike and tends to stabilize it in the identical but opposite way front brakes de- stabilize any vehicle. Think of it as the opposite of what causes a truck to jackknife: trying to stop a mass by applying braking to the front of the vehicle is an inherently de-stabilizing act; the back part of the vehicle resists stopping and will happily swing around the front of the vehicle to keep its velocity. Now think of the identical situation with rear brakes only applied; the front of the vehicle is effectively dragged down in velocity and all of physics wants to keep it in a straight line.

Of course none of this is a good idea if the bike is already using 95% of its tire adhesion due to lean. I am talking about reasonable street cornering here, especially on roads that are not perfectly flat.

OK that makes sense as well, but then to be honest I've never actually felt the destabilized feeling on a street bike (I certainly have in the dirt, I use the rear brake a lot more in the dirt) so thus I've never felt the stabilizing effect of the rear brake on the pavement. Just butt dead as well as brain dead I guess.

Unless I get a better understanding of what's going on, or what is supposed to be going on, I think I'm just going to continue with what I have been doing which is pretty much what Ranger Jim mentioned on page one post 3 of this thread. I still can't believe there are very many that do what the Total Control course said to do in regards to trail braking.

 

[ddback]

HTH...maybe someone else can 'splain better, or has a link to a good page.

I certainly hope so.......

..jes funnin ya JimBob, I appreciate all the typing you did, and a lot of what you said early on about the transition between acceleration
an braking being smoother is a good thing made sense. It is also what (I think) the course was trying to say with the simultaneous throttle
and front brake work was supposed to accomplish (that and make my right hand cramp). I suppose one could read into your post that you
made a good case for linked brakes?  ;D  (You brought cars into the mix and they got linked brakes. )

Adding a little (key word here- little) rear brake when in a turn will often noticeably stabilize the bike. It is especially noticeable on my C-14 when the bike is loaded and 2-up. Applying the rear brake adds drag to the back of the bike and tends to stabilize it in the identical but opposite way front brakes de- stabilize any vehicle. Think of it as the opposite of what causes a truck to jackknife: trying to stop a mass by applying braking to the front of the vehicle is an inherently de-stabilizing act; the back part of the vehicle resists stopping and will happily swing around the front of the vehicle to keep its velocity. Now think of the identical situation with rear brakes only applied; the front of the vehicle is effectively dragged down in velocity and all of physics wants to keep it in a straight line.

Of course none of this is a good idea if the bike is already using 95% of its tire adhesion due to lean. I am talking about reasonable street cornering here, especially on roads that are not perfectly flat.

OK that makes sense as well, but then to be honest I've never actually felt the destabilized feeling on a street bike (I certainly have in the dirt, I use the rear brake a lot more in the dirt) so thus I've never felt the stabilizing effect of the rear brake on the pavement. Just butt dead as well as brain dead I guess.

Unless I get a better understanding of what's going on, or what is supposed to be going on, I think I'm just going to continue with what I have been doing which is pretty much what Ranger Jim mentioned on page one post 3 of this thread. I still can't believe there are very many that do what the Total Control course said to do in regards to trail braking.

Haha, Mr. SmartyFartyPants!  :nananana:

Yea, I can't do trail braking on a bike- I'm just happy to be able to read the curve and ease off the throttle just right to initiate the lean and have a smooth acceleration through the curve.

I will say my mountain biking (like your dirt biking) makes me more confident to grab a little rear brake in a corner if I feel I'm a little hot or not leaning enough, mostly to keep the rear suspension tight/compressed a little, which makes the bike more stable. On big downhills with the mountain bike I've hit 45mph on single-track dirt. At that speed there's a LOT of similarity with a motorcycle as far as handling and braking (and fear of injury!)

 

[lather]

I don't think about trail braking but I find myself using it all the time on the street. I picked it up doing track days (on a sport bike) because the track near my home had a few corners where it just seemed the best way to go fast. I've done about 35 track days over the last 10 years and my track habits, including hanging off, have worked their way into my street riding. I never use the rear brake except on my dual sport, never felt any need for it on my street or track bikes.

As for Lee Parks, as I said I don't really think about it when I ride but trying to analyse what I do sitting at the keyboard and reading this I THINK this is a good description:

According to the instructor of the course, and the book by Lee Parks, trail braking is the trailing off of throttle (not chopping it off) an ramping up of brake pressure followed by the reverse as the angle of bank increases.

However. I also use a lot of body english or weight shifting at the same time which I think is an important part of making it work.

 

[Stevewfl]

all that drag/stabalization on the rear we love accomplishing with the rear brake is also adding an additional 3,4-10% stopping force.  between being more stable and having more brake it allows us to brake a half second or second  later in each turn (or so depending on the turn).

Critical for not only track lap times, but also when trying to keep up with our pesky hooligan crotch rocket friends on knee pucks in the mountains

 

[fartymarty]

Well it turns out I was wrong.  :-[  Not a surprise to anyone but me probably, but true none the less. I was detained longer than usual earlier today in a seated position and required some reading material. I reached out and grabbed the Total Control book and reread the section on braking. It turns out I had it wrong.  :  Trail braking is (as others have said or pointed to here) the continuation of braking into the turn and the trailing off of brake pressure in a manner that results in brake pressure being in inverse proportion to lean angle. The simultaneous reduction of throttle and increase in brake pressure is in the Throttle control section, and is called the Spencer method of throttle control and is used in conjunction with brake control, specifically it is used with trail braking. However they are two separate methods that are combined to be used together. So I had the terminology and the concept wrong from the outset. Perhaps the instructor did mention the Spencer method being used in conjunction with trail braking and all I heard was trail braking. I'm sorry for the error but I hope all enjoyed the discussion anyway. Regardless of what it's called, I had considerable trouble with my right hand trying to do both. I may attempt it again after I have a throttle tamer installed. Maybe. Maybe not. Thanks to all for your input.

 

[B.D.F.]

Emile Latella would have just said "Nevermind".

:rotflmao:

Brian

Well it turns out I was wrong.  :-[  Not a surprise to anyone but me probably, but true none the less. I was detained longer than usual earlier today in a seated position and required some reading material. I reached out and grabbed the Total Control book and reread the section on braking. It turns out I had it wrong.  :  Trail braking is (as others have said or pointed to here) the continuation of braking into the turn and the trailing off of brake pressure in a manner that results in brake pressure being in inverse proportion to lean angle. The simultaneous reduction of throttle and increase in brake pressure is in the Throttle control section, and is called the Spencer method of throttle control and is used in conjunction with brake control, specifically it is used with trail braking. However they are two separate methods that are combined to be used together. So I had the terminology and the concept wrong from the outset. Perhaps the instructor did mention the Spencer method being used in conjunction with trail braking and all I heard was trail braking. I'm sorry for the error but I hope all enjoyed the discussion anyway. Regardless of what it's called, I had considerable trouble with my right hand trying to do both. I may attempt it again after I have a throttle tamer installed. Maybe. Maybe not. Thanks to all for your input.

 

[gpink]

On a related note, I just read this article in the July issue of Cycle World....interesting...

http://www.cycleworld.com/2014/05/28/the-brake-light-initiative-treatise-on-motorcycle-control-using-your-braking-skills/

 

[Douglasjre]

Tail braking is done with the front brake. If you want to learn something new and are afraid to try it on the street then come to the track. We have lots of run off for those who enjoy offroading their track bikes. No trees no curbs or hrandmas. Learn alot and have fun.

Scott Russell Trail Braking Talk: http://youtu.be/G1rlQ0NmbWs

 

[mattchewn]

But, But, But...... :nananana:

Finally someone explains trail braking logically and thoroughly! So tired of hearing it is using the rear brake!
Matt

 

[fartymarty]

So tired of hearing it is using the rear brake!

Agreed. It does get old.

Finally someone explains trail braking logically and thoroughly!

Which someone? The Yamaha Champions presentation with Nick Ienatsch et al, or the article by Nick Ienatsch in Cycle world.

[quote author=Nick Ienatsch]Cornering momentum is the name of the game, stressing strong, forceful inputs at the handlebar to place the bike correctly at the entrance of the turn and get it flicked in with little wasted time and distance[/quote]

[quote author=Nick Ienatsch]Grabbing, stabbing, hammering, throwing, flicking, flopping, tossing… Those verbs need to be eliminated from your motorcycle-riding vocabulary[/quote]
So, have I got this right?...flicked is OK but....flicking needs to be eliminated from my vocabulary?

I did enjoy the article, but that stage presentation was terrible. I've seen it live and thought it was just as bad as the video. If I thought that was the way they presented information in their school, no way would I even consider the $2500-$3500 it costs (but to be honest I'm not considering it anyway unless there is some windfall in my future). Keeping in mind that the stage presentation was also, and perhaps mostly, a carefully planned sales pitch, I'm inclined to believe that once they have your money they start presenting the information in a more structured forthright manner. They did give you some information that makes sense, but they do a whole lot of talking back and forth which doesn't relay much information, like the searching for one word that represents the feeling of laying on the ground next to a guard rail. A tire has 100 points of grip? WTF? Not 100% of available grip, a 100 points of grip. So yes, loading the tire increases the size of the contact patch to increase the amount of grip..but wait...does it still only have 100 points of grip..or is it 124.7 now?

I have it now, my tire has 100 points of grip, and I can use that to my advantage by using strong forceful inputs to get it flicked in with little wasted time as long as I don't do any of that terrible flicking.... which I just failed at because I just typed it here and I was supposed to eliminate it from my vocabulary.    Golly gosh darn. This is complicated stuff!

My current opinion is that despite the efforts of the MSF and all the schools, books, and DVDs competing for your dollars, there is no single one answer for all "This is how you should do it." Even the Holy Grail of a "track day" pretty much only makes you faster on that track by the end of that day (it is a lot of fun though). Keep practicing, take a course at least every other year, keep what works for you discard the rest, use situational awareness, look through the turns, avoid target fixation....and by all means avoid any of that terrible flicking, just eliminate it from your vocabulary..DOH! :-[ I did it again.

 

[Kawi Ken]

Might as well ad one more article to this -
Riding Series 7.5 - Make the pads touch the rotors

This installment focuses on a tip for corner entry that is both easy to implement and a big difference maker for many riders.  One of the most important contributors to rider confidence is to have a motorcycle that is completely predictable on corner entrance.  One simple way that riders can help this happen is to stabilize the front end using trail braking.  However, many riders are afriad to trail brake because they are unsure of if they have enough traction to brake during the turn in process.  We have found a simple solution for getting riders started on this path....please read on for more details.

It is often the case that the very same strategies used by top racers to maximize speed also can be applied by track day riders and Amateur racers to ride more safely.  Trail braking is a prime example of one of those principles.  Top riders brake right up to the moment of their major bar input, using the front brake to both set entrance speed and steer the motorcycle.  Riders who are developing their skills often feel safest doing all of their braking while straight up and down and then fully releasing the brake lever as the motorcycle begins to lean.  Unfortunately, this practice often causes several problems on corner entry.

The average motorcycle these days has about 120mm worth of front suspension travel.  When the brakes are fully released, the suspension extends and rides high in the travel.  The absence of brake lever input allows the front end to essentially "float" and react with a lot of amplitude to every input (bumps, rider weight shifts, etc...).  When riders trail brake, even with very light pressure, the forks not only ride lower in the travel (making turn in effort easier) but they also react less severly to every input.  The "preloading" of the front fork with lever input puts downward pressure on the front end, decreasing the unsettling motion of the forks at the top of the stroke.

The question that always follows after explaining the benefits of trail braking is "How much trail braking is OK?".  The answer in an ideal world is that riders should trail brake and set their entrance speed with every bit of traction available.  The challenge with this is that it takes excellent body position and perfectly soft arms and hands to feel the precise feedback needed to brake at this level.  However, all riders can benefit from a stabilizing effect in corner entrances by simply applying the lever enough to just cause "the pads to contact the rotors".

This concept is an ideal starting point for riders at all levels to develop the habit of trail braking.  Applying just enough pressure to make "the pads touch the rotors" will stabilize the front end, decrease the motion of the forks, lower the amount of bar effort needed to turn in, and greatly increase your sense of control.  As an added bonus, you will slow down an extra couple MPH at the end of the braking zone and eventually be able to safely move your brake marker forward.  All you have to to is keep those pads just touching the rotors when carving into a corner, and you'll find an immediate improvement in the handling of your bike on both the street and the track.

Until next time - ride fast, ride safe! 

 

[Daytona_Mike]

Kawi Ken- Very good information.
:great: Thanks.

 

[connie_rider]

Just saw this old note. Want to come back and look at it. Others might also be interested?

Ride safe, Ted

 

[freebird6]

great discussion and info here. Prpper definition of trail braking found it's way to the surface as well.

Coming off of racing criterium, road and triathlon bikes I learned a long time ago to grab a little rear brake as BDF and Boomer explained. Not trail braking but on a 23 or 25 MM tire and a small contact patch you kind of learn how to use practical skills to keep your bike upright (try over 50mph downhill on a left handed off camber sweeper and a less than 1" wide tire}

Since returning to a new Concours after an idiot pulled out in front of me last October I have logged 5k miles on the new 13 and am enjoying the linked brakes. I no longer have a right ankle available so the linked brakes have been a blessing. I can not use the right brake and have decided I will master the new braking scheme and get used to it rather than stop riding. I read the threads with great interest before and worked them out in my head. Now I am more focused on using the linked brakes and maximizing their potential. No judgement of how anyone else uses their brakes and what they prefer, just reading all I can including Parks and Code on the subject to figure out how I am going to treat the rest of my riding life.

GOod stuff. thanks for all the info thrown out there in this thread.

 

[connie_rider]

I went back and read this discussion. Will do so again.
(I thought trail braking , meant using the rear brake as you approached a curve to increase control).  :-[
I learned differently from reading this discussion.
(Apparently a lot of others, {including the track guys} did too)

BUT,,, I'm a long time dirt biker. (In my day, Dirt bikers sometimes steered with the rear brake)
So, I "habitually" touch the rear brake as I approach a curve.
(Can't seem to break the habit)  :truce:
Because of this, the linked brakes have been a real problem.

Approaching a curve;
  I'll be lightly using the rear, and touch the front... OMG,,,, instant doubling in braking force.
  Or, I'll finally be using only the front and (without thinking) touch the rear. 
        Same result.  instant doubling in braking force.    arghhhh

NOTE: Anyone behind me,, watch out... that sudden braking increase messes me up BADLY..

Wish I could decrease (or disconnect) the &*^%%$ things!

Ride safe, Ted

 

[DialedN_13]

Because of this, the linked brakes have been a real problem.

Approaching a curve;
  I'll be lightly using the rear, and touch the front... OMG,,,, instant doubling in braking force.
  Or, I'll finally be using only the front and (without thinking) touch the rear. 
        Same result.  instant doubling in braking force.    arghhhh

NOTE: Anyone behind me,, watch out... that sudden braking increase messes me up BADLY..


Wish I could decrease (or disconnect) the &*^%%$ things!

Ride safe, Ted

I wouldn't say this is a huge concern if you apply the trail braking technique properly.  I'm not sure of the percentages, but for my previous track riding and my current street riding, I try to apply the *Get 90% of your braking done before you turn in to the corner* rule.  Once tipped in you're slowly easing OFF the brakes, and thus should not have any (additional) input on the brakes.  Yes you are still on the brakes, however in a decreasing amount as you lean in further.  That should eliminate the 'stab' that they discussed in the video.

I think the biggest point here for street riding purposes is not being 100% on the brakes, then 100% off the brakes and creating the pogo or bouncing effect that is caused by letting go of a fistful of front brake all at the same time.  Leaving that last 10% in your hands allows the bike to stay settled, and then as the G Forces of the turn itself compress the suspension, you are proportionately letting off the brake.  That way your bike stays basically the same 'height' throughout the corner.

Anyway, it's worked for me over the years. Even on the Connie.

PS.  FWIW I took the rear brake completely off of my trackbike.  I use my rear brake on the C14 now, however, when I get to the point of tip in, I'm 100% off the rear, and only leave that little bit on the front.