tread separation 2

[slybonesjesse]

Well what do ya think of this one. PilotGT with 19K on it when I left, a bit over 20K at time of problem. If your paying attention to the different threads, I was out for a mear 1700mi loop for the long weekend. I had the speedo cable break, my GL1800 footpeg come apart and the front tire go bad. It was day 3 and a good 1300mi into the trip. I start out in Montana and I-90 it back to spokane. Then its Hwy25 from Davenport along FDR Lake to Kettle Falls. Then Hwy 20 all the way home. This is the plan. I don't notice much before this. Nothing back in Post Falls where I got gas or any of the places I stopped and took pics along Hwy 25. Things seem ok for most the ride. But as I am slowing making the turns from Hwy 25 onto Hwy395 / 20 and then the left onto Hwy 20 I notice the front end has a thump, thump, thump to it. I stop and inspect but don't really see anything. So I press on. By the time I reach Sherman Pass I can feel it on the corners a little, but seems ok on the straights. I stop in Republic and look again. Still didn't see anything. I looked over both tires pretty good. So I thought. Shortly after leaving Republic I stop again. Something is wrong. And I find it. The front tire as a big air bubble in it. Its like the rubber has separated from the belts below and air is filled on underneath and bulging the tire. I check the cell and there is no coverage. So from here to Tonasket, which is only like 40 miles, I slowly limp along going slow enough that if it blows I wont die from the resulting injuries. In hindsight I wonder if I should have gone back to Republic, it was closer. A closer town, but further from home. Which is my next call. Call home and spring the good news to the wife I am broke down in Tonasket. Wife says she will get the Dodge Dakota from my mom and come and get me. 6 hours later she arrives with my parents. My mom, who is 82, spends 5 hours crammed in the back of a Dodge Dakota. Once we get the Connie loaded up and ready to go, we look for Dinner. The restaurant in Tonasket is now closed. Its only 8:45pm. 30 minutes later we are in Omak and the restaurants are closed there too. So we head to the KFC for dinner and the Best Western for the night. Day 4 - 240mi ( in the back of a truck ) With the Connie still in the back of the truck, we drive on home. All is now safe and sound in the garage. And in tack. No damage, or injuries. Nothing a little $$$ wont fix up. And an extra $250 for the rooms, food and fuel in the parents truck. http://mysite.verizon.net/slybones/IMGP2660L.JPG 2003 Concours, 50K COG #6953 IBA 28004 http://mysite.verizon.net/slybones/Concours/connieMain.htm

 

[Wizeguy]

Fred, that's just friggin weird dude... I've seen "bubble" type stuff years ago on tube tires, I don't think I've ever seen such a thing on a tubeless tire. Although, I guess with the layered plys (plies?) it's entirely possible. Only to you buddy, only you! :eg:

 

[oldsawfiler]

That's a bummer slybones, but at least you're home and nothing is damaged but your wallet. Got new shoes on mine today. Can't believe the difference, just from the installer to the house. About 8 miles all in town. She just wants to fall into the turns now. Bridgstone BT45s COG # 8062 AMA # 1084053 ROMA or Scarlet harlot acording to my wife

 

[Paulie]

Sounded like a PITA but glad it was no worse. That's the 1st GT failure I've hurd. Contact Mich? 01 Conc, Mijami Floriduh OTP 06: http://tinyurl.com/2vk9o2 route map: http://tinyurl.com/4p7pmd

 

[Brett0769]

+1 on contacting Michelin, I'll wager they'll do you right and want to get the tire back to check it out. No such thing as a perfect manufacturing process, but that's definitely very weird. '06 C10 Brett Hatfield AMA# 1019197 COG# 8229 (CDA# 0267)

 

[EddieM]

My guess is Michelin may not do anything about a Piolt GT on a Connie. Not a recommended fitment, you know! I know, I know. That has nothing to do (as far as I'm concerned) with a tread separation, which this is, but knowing how companies are these days, I do wonder. That being said, I'm glad you're OK, Fred. That could have been scary if the tire had failed at speed! Maybe this was the last of "bad things come in threes" and you'll get a break from here on out. Eddie Sanford, FL 2005 Concours 1969 Triumph Bonneville AMA# 686667 COG# 7073 CDA# 0136 http://picasaweb.google.com/Eddie753

 

[olebiker]

Glad it didn't pop cause I don't think that would have a good ending.

 

[slybonesjesse]

lol, at Eddie. On sunday my speedo cable broke. Then only but about an hour later my the rubber top half the footpeg came off. I spend the rest of that whole day ride ( 605mi total ) wondering what the 3rd thing was going to be. By Monday I was thinking I was off the hook. But no such luck. 2003 Concours, 50K COG #6953 IBA 28004 http://mysite.verizon.net/slybones/Concours/connieMain.htm

 

[slybonesjesse]

Well I sent michelin an email. Dont know that they will do anything either. Other than if they are intereted in the tire I would send it to them. I got 20K out of this set. And they worked well IMO. If you going to use Wing size tires in your Connie, I believe these are the ones to get. I have done these and the Metzelers. And ridden the Dunlop E3's, etc. The Pilots are the way to go if your going to be in the Wing size crowd. My next set I am going back to stock size and have a set of Dunlop D205's out in the garage. In short though I have no issues going back to these if needed. I would do another set. 2003 Concours, 50K COG #6953 IBA 28004 http://mysite.verizon.net/slybones/Concours/connieMain.htm

 

[2linby]

20K and dragging out your mother to Tonasket? Geez! I think you're asking for a bit too much here. Leaving home with any tire with 19K on it is asking for problems. DON'T DO THIS AGAIN!! Sorry to sound like an ass, but hey what did you expect? AKA "2linby" That's 2-lin-by folks! Northwest Area Director COG #5539 AMA #927779 IBA #15034 TEAM OREGON MC Instructor http://community.webshots.com/user/2linby http://tinyurl.com/njas8 (IBA BunBurner Gold Trip) http://tinyurl.com/lwelx (Alaska trip)

 

[norm9688]

From the look of the tire I think its a broken belt maybe due to impact like a pothole or something. Could have happened a while back and just took time for the tire to come apart. I have seen car tires like this many times. The twisted tread is a dead give away. Glad you did not have a bad failure. Michelin might want to see the tire but given it wear and age I doubt they will give you any kind of compensation. It can't hurt to give them a heads up though. I looks like the tire is at the wear bar anyway from the picture. CT AAD COG #7011-A 2003 Concours-Mary Ann 1995 Honda Nighthawk 750 wifes

 

[slybonesjesse]

Seems like a very hindsight attitude Bob. What did I expect. I expect you should be able to run the tire down to the wear bars before having to change it. If its got tread left sufficient for the ride at hand, then you should be able to leave home with it. I dont think people should expect a failure of this type, just simply because it has 19K on it. I am not the first guy to get 20K out of wing size tires on a Connie. And I am sure I wont be the last. I dont think we should expect failures if this nature simply based on mileage. The tire at the bubble is is wore quite a bit. Some of the tread groves are completely gone. I believe this is a result of the bubble itself and how it deteriorated the short time I rode it this way. The remaining tire tread depth is within limits. I actually measured the tread depth before I left. Also checked the air pressure, etc. before leaving. -- Given that 15K / 16K seems to be average for many Pilot GT riders, I have been monitoring my tread depth and mileage very close ever since then. Given my knowledge of at hand I dont think it was completely unreasonable for me to think I could make this ride with that tire. Having said that I was completely expecting the tire to be close enough to wear bars from this trip. I have been fully expecting to change them when I got home. 2003 Concours, 50K COG #6953 IBA 28004 http://mysite.verizon.net/slybones/Concours/connieMain.htm

 

[slybonesjesse]

And by the way, I didn't drag my mother anywhere. I had no expectation she was coming. I really think she came just because I needed assistance and she wanted to be there. I ask so little of my parents. I think it made her feel good to be doing something for me. I doubt there was anything I or any of us could have said to have stopped her. 2003 Concours, 50K COG #6953 IBA 28004 http://mysite.verizon.net/slybones/Concours/connieMain.htm

 

[colinp386]

Hey Fred; Glad you managed to spot the problem before the thing burst! Kudos to you. If you were on the Dam tour I'm going to report you to "C" for not riding the whole trip LoL :eg: Ride Safe Colin Prior COG Webmaster Lake Forest Park WA COG#7767 AMA#1081764 ROK#20000617

 

[slybonesjesse]

I was on the DamTour. I was going for the Montana bonus dams. Steve posted in my ride report they didnt count if I finished in the back of the truck. But "C" already gave me credit. I dont think she read my ride report before doing the rankings.... 2003 Concours, 50K COG #6953 IBA 28004 http://mysite.verizon.net/slybones/Concours/connieMain.htm

 

[slybonesjesse]

Got some Dunlop D205's mounted up yesterday along with the rear wheel bearings replaced. Have not been our yet. Tomorrows ride to work will be the first chance I get to give them a spin. 2003 Concours, 50K COG #6953 IBA 28004 http://mysite.verizon.net/slybones/Concours/connieMain.htm

 

[slybonesjesse]

Well lets see if we can turn this into a tire thread. I only have a few hundred miles on the D205's so far. But right out of the gate I notice how lighter and quicker the Connie steers. Its a noticable difference compare to even the Pilot GT's which steer good for the Wing tire crowd. In both cases I think once the tire is off center, they both tend to want to fall into the turn and not require so much steering pressure throughout the entire turn. -- I swapped with a few Connies last summer with stock sizes. And I recall on one set it seems to steer a little easier, but also required constant pressure throughout the turn. I was not used to that and freaked me out for the first little bit as I would initiate the turn and think "come on, come on, you can do it" as I had to force the bike around the corner. -- Anyways I dont see that here with either set. The real difference is in effort and speed in flicking from side to side. Being I am on the more touring side this is not that big a deal. But it is noticable differnce between the two sets. For many the Wing sizes correct for a fast speedo and tend to make them accurate. For me I was one of the more rare speedo's that was accurate and then read slow with the Wing sizes. -- I cannot believe how much I love having an accurate speedo again. Seems so simple. Yet every time I look down I have this easier feeling because I dont have to apply the math any more. On the flip side the D205's dont have the stable feeling of the Pilot GT's. I feel like I am ever so slightly going side to side and making lots of tiny balancing corrections. They feel nervous to me. I hope I get used to this. The Wing tires were always so stable feeling. -- I recall with the stock dunlops, and when I first got the Connie, I had a bit of a time holding a straight line. Seemed like the bike wanted to wander a bit. -- Where here I seems to not have that problem in that I seem to be able to hold a line, it just feels twitchy and nervous. I have checked the tire air pressure. 2003 Concours, 51K COG #6953 IBA 28004 http://mysite.verizon.net/slybones/Concours/connieMain.htm

 

[Tommyhof]

Sly, I have the GT's getting ready to replace the rear, it has 13k and you have more thread on yours at 20K. I'm just about at the wear bar, I was happy with them, front is still good to go, but going to put on a shenko 777 and see how that does, I'll soon have a set of back up 205's in case. Virginia Beach, VA COG 6517 03 Concours (9/11/04) 01 Concours (8/16/08) USN Retired

 

[2linby]

When we change tires to the ME 880 or GT etc... we do so with the expectations of long tire life and or Extremely long tire life. Waiting for the wear bars to show is an indication of the remaining tread and not an indication of overall tire wear. It is my contention that basing a tires "wellness" just on the basis of the wear bars has been the cause of more failures that anyone would admit to or know of. For the most part the ME880's GT501's etc are GoldWing GL1500 tires correct? As this is a much different machine then the Concours, primarily in the area of handling, it is my contention that these tires are not entirely suitable (note the use of the word "entirely") for the current application and any expecation that they will perform as well in all areas and potential use/exposure to the performance standards of a machine more suited to "sport" than "touring" as is the GL1500. With this in mind I would expect and full support the idea that the Connie's abilities in the corners may lead to un expected tire wear, through unexpected flexes to the sidewalls of a tire that is not designed for sport touring, however slight these manufacturing tolerances maybe, I think they exist and do come into play, sometimes manifesting in a situtation of sidewall air penatration/carcass failure issues you just like the one you expereinced. I beleive you were, thank god, lucky and the outcome while inconvenient could have been disasterous in that of a total tire failure while in motion. I just think we are expecting way too much out of these substitution tire choices and are unwilling to to face up to the realities of their real limitations. I know you are a conservative and responsible rider and one who regularly checks his equipment. If not you wouldn't have had the capacity to recognize this development. What I am saying is we're all trying to squeeze blood from a turnip and IMHO the potential costs of doing so may lead to diasterous effects. If they already haven't. Wear bars or no wear bars 20K is a lot to expect out of any motorcycle tire. Personnally I've tried the wing sized ME880's and hated the road feel. Took then off and sold them before I had 1K on them. Sorry if I sounded to direct in my first response, but I I'd rather spend less on a tire and expect less out of it that thinking I'll save money on the long mileage I'll get out of a Wingtire. I am happy to get 10K on my cheap Chen Shings with ample tread (more than the wear bars) left for $60.00 a pop (but they don't import these either anymore!) Than try to squeeze 20K out of a tire than cost me $130.00 and is NOT the recommended fitament. Certainly while there is a concern with the cost of operations what price safety? Right? Therefore I'll probably go back to the D205's as they are in Dunlops recommended fitament guire. Although the front cupped terribly they really made the bike come alive. And I'll continue to damn Michelin for not making a 120/80/1 8 front and 150/80/16 matching read set like my beloved 100X's In either case any variation from the OEM recommendation for tires wouldn't qualify for any compensation from the tire manufacturer. They'd either ignore you or read you the riot act. AKA "2linby" That's 2-lin-by folks! Northwest Area Director COG #5539 AMA #927779 IBA #15034 TEAM OREGON MC Instructor http://community.webshots.com/user/2linby http://tinyurl.com/njas8 (IBA BunBurner Gold Trip) http://tinyurl.com/lwelx (Alaska trip)

 

[slybonesjesse]

I always find the fitment guide excuse for shooting down Wing size tires, and interesting one. At least they are designed to be fit on the Connie's wheel. The stock 120 tire in a bias ply, which I believe the original stock dunflops are ( like the K700/701 line they sell ) are designed for a 3.0 inch wheel which the Connie has. The Avons, D205 and the beloved 100X are 'radials' and in the stock 120 size say right in the tire specs they are designed for a minumium rim width of 3.5 inches. And we install them on a 3.0 inch wheel. Does not seem like proper fitment to me. -- What about these tire choices and their realities. I think those charts recommend the tires they do simply because they are the stock size. Even if they are not properly fitted. Yet I am supposed to believe that I should not install a tire that is propery fitted on the wheel, and has all the proper clearance, etc just because it does not show up on some chart. What about the guys running the 110 sizes on a 94 and up Connie. Now we have a radial tire mounted on a proper size wheel, etc. Oh but they dont show up in the chart. So we should toss them out too, because they dont show up on the guide. I think this is why its called a "guide" and not the "rule". And why the post the tire specs. So people can look up and find tires that will fit their application. Even if some people dont like them. 2003 Concours, 51K COG #6953 IBA 28004 http://mysite.verizon.net/slybones/Concours/connieMain.htm

 

[slybonesjesse]

Here is a good one. The FAQ on Dunlops website. Of course they want you to get approval first. And of course I am sure people will interpet this different ways. But here is room here for an argument that says that Wing size tires are a better choice than the radials we love so much. They are bias plys like what originally came on the bike, they are only a one size designation increase, they are intended to be on a motorcycle, people have factored in the clearance for width and diameter, the wheel size is with in spec, etc. -- Where as the radials are not only being mounted on a wheel that is too narrow, we are mounting it on a bike whos steering geometries, frames and suspension was not designed for radial tires. Can I put wider tires on my motorcycle? This is possible in some cases, but again, it should only be done with the approval of the motorcycle or tire manufacturer. When considering wider tires, you must factor in clearance for width and diameter, the effect on stability and handling, along with whether your rim is wide enough. If wider tires are approved for a motorcycle, it is usually permissible to increase by only one size designation. When fitting a larger tire, always allow for some tire growth from the new to used situation. All tires increase in size after they have been inflated and are run for a few hundred miles. Can I change my tires from bias ply to radial or vice versa? Bias and radial tires have significantly different dynamic properties. They deflect differently, create different cornering forces, have different damping characteristics, as well as other differences. In order for radial tires to be introduced into the two-wheel market, it was necessary to change certain characteristics of the motorcycle. The introduction of the radial tire led to such things as modified frames, new steering geometries and suspensions. Therefore, it is recommended that a motorcycle be used with the type of tire construction that it came with originally. If a change is to be made, then it should only be done if the motorcycle or tire manufacturer has approved the change. Above all, do not mix bias ply and radial tires on the same motorcycle unless it is with the approval of the motorcycle or tire manufacturer. 2003 Concours, 51K COG #6953 IBA 28004 http://mysite.verizon.net/slybones/Concours/connieMain.htm

 

[slybonesjesse]

Of course having posted that I am not against anyone running the Pig Wing Tars on their scoot, or the stock size 120 radials or bias plys, or the 110 radials ( expecially on the earlier bikes ), and the 17" kosman rear tire mods, etc. -- Not too sure about that car tire on the Connie, but I accept that individual is making an informed choice and didnt install it because it was on a chart. 2003 Concours, 51K COG #6953 IBA 28004 http://mysite.verizon.net/slybones/Concours/connieMain.htm

 

[2linby]

The K701/K700 Dunlop is a radial tire. As is the D205 and the Michelin 89X - 90X and 100X series of tires. http://www.dunlopmotorcycle.com/tirecatalog_category.asp?id=7 Again my contention is the Connies handling capacity is different in many ways than the GL1500 and the tires for the GL1500 are different by way of being different sizes and bias ply. No knock on either Rather the high mileage, wear and abuse. Again your choice and one that is regularly made with many sucessful long mileage. However I am very leary to give all my faith in ANY motorcycle tire that has or can reach the 20,000 mile range as the mechanical forces of stress, strain etc.. they are forces to endure are significant and IMHO it is not worth stretching out a tire with 19,0000 miles of abuse on it, even if the wear bars are not fully shown out yet, to another 1700 mile trip. Just not a decision that I personally would thing prudent for me. Your choice is your choice. I just don't agree with with it and hope you'd not place yourself in a situation that increases your exposure to this type of equipment failure. Regardless of the quality of machine or rider the contact patch is the primary influence on what determines traction and failure of traction or its mechanisim can and will have dire consequences. That's all. I'm just concerned for your safety versus saving a couple bucks or looking for a sense of pride through frugal accomplishments. AKA "2linby" That's 2-lin-by folks! Northwest Area Director COG #5539 AMA #927779 IBA #15034 TEAM OREGON MC Instructor http://community.webshots.com/user/2linby http://tinyurl.com/njas8 (IBA BunBurner Gold Trip) http://tinyurl.com/lwelx (Alaska trip)

 

[suzukijay]

You might want to check this out when you have a chance: http://forums.trucktrend.com/70/6332712/rvs-trailers-atvs-motorhomes/michelin-releases-motorcycle-tire-recall-informati/index.html This recall isn't for the PilotGT BUT for the Pilot Power and Pilot Power CT tires.

 

[slybonesjesse]

It may not be a recall for the Pilot GT, but this looks some what familiar At speeds exceeding normal highway riding, the recalled tires may exhibit an abnormal deformation in the tread, which may be accompanied by small localized sections of tread separation or loss. In addition, the recalled tires could experience a slight to excessive vibration and create an unstable riding condition. 2003 Concours, 51K COG #6953 IBA 28004 http://mysite.verizon.net/slybones/Concours/connieMain.htm

 

[jimp]

I just mounted up a set of GT's for my trip to Alaska and I gotta say, I'm not real happy with them. High effort to iniate a turn and then they want to fall in, just like the Dunlops. Never expected this from Michelins, but I guess that's a characteristic of the wider profile and bias ply. I will say that when leaned over, they do hold a line nicely, unlike the Dunlops. I'm gonna do my best to burn through these tires in 8,000 miles so I can go back to proper sized radials. I hear the road surfaces in Alaska is sort of like that in Texas - very similar to sandpaper only with larger grit.

 

[slybonesjesse]

Well Bob, I accept that its a choice you would not have made, and a choice I did make. From that point of view your statements are not completely unreasonable. And I never argued it was. Obviously not every one agrees with them either as I wont be the first or last to get 20K out of a set of tires. -- And as we now can see, my failure might possibly have something to do with Michelin versus my choice. Even though the Pilot GT's are not on a recall. -- But its not an unreasonable choice for you to have not gone on the trip w/o having changed the tires first. I can accept that. Always have. I did argue that I think the fitment excuse against Wing size tires is BS. In my attempts to prove that I falsely stated K700/701 series were bias ply tires and use the FAQ's to prove a incorrect story. While the K700/701 replacements from Dunlop's are radials, were the original OE tires that came from the factory in lets day 1994, radial tires? -- I dont know the answer. However I stick with my story to some degree in that, it does state in that chart on dunlops site the K700/701 series are recommended for 3.0 inch wheels which the Connie has. And the D205's are recommended for 3.5 inch wheels, which the Connie does not have. Dunlops site does not state the min/max wheel size. But for example Avons site does. And it says the recommended wheel side is 3.5", the min is 3.5" and the max is 3.75" for the Storm in the 120 size most Avons users are running. From a fitment point of view there are tons of Connies all running around with improperly fitted tires, all because they show up in a chart. And shooting down tires that are properly fitted because they dont show up in a chart is not a valid argument IMO. The tire choices we have for the Connie are pretty slim. And its even worse if we limit ourselves to Stock size, radials that are properly fitted on a 3.0" wheel. -- Hell the K700/701 might just be our only choice. Wouldn't that suck. 2003 Concours, 51K COG #6953 IBA 28004 http://mysite.verizon.net/slybones/Concours/connieMain.htm

 

[jimp]

<were the original OE tires that came from the factory in lets day 1994, radial tires?> Yes. In fact, radials were fitted to the original 86 with its 2.5" rim

 

[slybonesjesse]

More ramblings you dont care about. I was quite surpised when I went from the ME880's to the Pilot GT's how much smoother the GT's were. Well I can now say that I am quite surprised at how much smoother the D205's are over the GT's. I have now ridden the same route to/from work for a few weeks hitting the same familiar bumps. In many cases it does not seem too much difference. But there are a few spots where I really notice it. There is one spot getting onto 520 in the evening where I make the transition from the bridge to the on ramp, leaned over in the turn and its quite noticable. Given the two observations, the difference in high performance radials and ME880's must be quite noticable in ride quality. Especially going from the radials to the ME's. I remember many moons ago on the other forum GTI20vTurbo ( ?? ) member posting comments in steering effort saying that if the stock tires were a 0, and ME880's were a 10, then Pilot GT's were a 2 and Avons were a -4. So going from a 10 to a 2 to a -4 was noticable for me each time. Going from a -4 to a 10 must really freak people out. Where am I going with that. Well I think you can apply the same thing to ride quality. 2003 Concours, 51K COG #6953 IBA 28004 http://mysite.verizon.net/slybones/Concours/connieMain.htm