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Valve Job Cost?

CoachTony

CoachTony

Member
Member
I had my bike in for some new shoes yesterday, and while waiting I was chatting with the service writer. It is a Kawasaki dealer. I asked how much the Valve Job was on the C14. He quoted me around $800, saying it was just over 5 hours of labor. I seem to remember someone telling me it was closer to $1500 -$1800.
Do they usually find other stuff that also is needed that racks up the price?
What else can be done at the same time to save on future maintenance costs? Spark Plugs? Other?
 
Spark plugs replacement, valve cover gasket replacement, leaky cam sensor O ring replacement*, air filter replacement (since the plastic is off)
Probably other stuff as well: maybe clutch fluid bleed? Coolant drain and replace? Hose and line inspection?

* order the over sized one from Murph because the dealer will probably use the stock sized one.
 
Jeff.C said:
That’s about the going rate! Could be in your interest to ask, will the price stay the same if all sixteen need to be touched?
Click to expand...
Good tip!
I am hoping that my valves will be in pretty good shape. I currently have 29000 miles, and by next summer when I was thinking of getting it done, I will likely be between 36 and 40000 miles. I know it probably doesn't have to have it done, but since it is a 2015 and dealers seems to have the 10 year old rule, I thought I might get it done, so it is done and I don't have to worry about finding someone to do it later.
 
CoachTony said:
Good tip!
I am hoping that my valves will be in pretty good shape. I currently have 29000 miles, and by next summer when I was thinking of getting it done, I will likely be between 36 and 40000 miles. I know it probably doesn't have to have it done, but since it is a 2015 and dealers seems to have the 10 year old rule, I thought I might get it done, so it is done and I don't have to worry about finding someone to do it later
Click to expand...
*****removed my previous comment*****
The warning is not to drink and write!

The numbers your throwing out Tony, especially pushing it to forty thousand seems excessive, the valves & seats typically are the first parts that start wearing out within the engine life cycle from day one.
 
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I had 26,700 miles on mine and every exhaust valve was out of spec (tight), so I would be concerned that waiting as long you are considering may burn a valve.

Fred H did mine, and the $800 sounds to be just the labor. The parts - shims,spark plugs, coolant, gaskets etc. will push it closer to the $1500.
 
CoachTony said:
Good tip!
I am hoping that my valves will be in pretty good shape. I currently have 29000 miles, and by next summer when I was thinking of getting it done, I will likely be between 36 and 40000 miles. I know it probably doesn't have to have it done, but since it is a 2015 and dealers seems to have the 10 year old rule, I thought I might get it done, so it is done and I don't have to worry about finding someone to do it later.
Click to expand...
@CoachTony no offense meant to the dealership people here, maybe it’s interpretation or a miscommunication, however - service interval for this maintenance need is by mileage not time - anyone that gives you time on this routine maintenance is not someone who should be performing this in depth work.

So…. since they had your machine on the lift and knew the mileage - they should have been warning you and advising that your machine is overdue for this service. I would suggest having this service done now, and preferably somewhere else.

5 hours, hmm…. Maybe I am just too picky and don’t use enough power tools but this job takes me more in the range of 13-15 hours of direct work time. I also remove the radiator which is another 30+ minutes of cycle time, and every fastener is torqued to exact spec I know many dealers do not do this either. I have seen some poor work ethics on machines that have been brought to me - including valves that are way outside of spec that were said to be ‘close enough’, yup that is right the dealer took the customer’s money but said the outside of clearance spec values that were measured and collected on paper were close enough… 😤

I see others have given further explanation on the physics here so I won’t go further into that.

Where are you located?

Wayne, Carol & Blue
 
2andblue said:
@CoachTony no offense meant to the dealership people here, maybe it’s interpretation or a miscommunication, however - service interval for this maintenance need is by mileage not time - anyone that gives you time on this routine maintenance is not someone who should be performing this in depth work.

So…. since they had your machine on the lift and knew the mileage - they should have been warning you and advising that your machine is overdue for this service. I would suggest having this service done now, and preferably somewhere else.

5 hours, hmm…. Maybe I am just too picky and don’t use enough power tools but this job takes me more in the range of 13-15 hours of direct work time. I also remove the radiator which is another 30+ minutes of cycle time, and every fastener is torqued to exact spec I know many dealers do not do this either. I have seen some poor work ethics on machines that have been brought to me - including valves that are way outside of spec that were said to be ‘close enough’, yup that is right the dealer took the customer’s money but said the outside of clearance spec values that were measured and collected on paper were close enough… 😤

I see others have given further explanation on the physics here so I won’t go further into that.

Where are you located?

Wayne, Carol & Blue
Click to expand...
Hi Wayne, my interpretation of Tony’s ten-year rule was not a service interval, but many dealers usually shy away from older machines once they’ve hit the ten-year mark.

Too much unknown especially if there is no service history in the system, as it has and can open a service department up to litigation.

For example, a customer brings a bike in for rear pads that are making noise metal to metal, the said bike lives outside under a cover, with a hard life in the elements fourth owner.

The technicians during the inspection advised, to do wheel bearings, flush fluids, and rebuild calipers, front pads, rotors, and master cylinders, “Do it the right way” the customer said give me a quote.

The service advisor hands the customer the quote for $3100, as the advisor is explaining the scope of the work and why it’s required, all the customer hears and thinks is they suck and are ripping me off, tells them to just do the rear pads and the round thingy attached to the wheel.

The service manager is involved now, cause he now has a liability, installing only the rears even after having the customer sign a refusal of other needed work, or asking the customer to take the bike with no repairs opens up future liability.

That’s the 10-year rule! this industry has changed since the 80s and has been a race to the bottom since then.

Everyone has a friend that fixes bikes or posts on Facebook or forums, Amazon, and eBay motors are the places to buy cheap parts, really works out well when you are an overseas supplier of seven-dollar foot pegs and have no way to trace it back when the advertised billet was nothing more than mixed dirty aluminum, breaking off at the exact moment the buyer needed to get on his back brakes hard to avoid a left turning tanker, but we will never know the true outcome on that, mangled dead rider and destroyed bike.

Not an advocate of Dealerships in Wayne, don’t own a motorcycle dealership, my background is in Engine machine-shop, mostly trucks, and Service Management for International trucks for almost 33 years, and during that time alongside that career still today it has been my shop, that was started to support an out of control Drag racing illness.

I’m a partner in an independent V Twin performance shop, we also work on inline fours out of our reputation in R.D. In the drag race / Grudge racing circuits.

I talk a lot of goofball shit on this forum cause don't need or care at times not here to Impress, but will help when asked, took me 61 years to love myself and not try to convince anyone else of loving or liking.

The fact is I’m knowledgeable about the plight of OEM, and Independent shops spending many years around power sports industries, belonging to oversite boards, yes many can do a lot better with customer support, as long as the owner reinvests the profits in tools and equipment, technicians' training, and good wages, some do and play the long game gaining a good reputation.

Others take profits to purchase Cadillac Escalades or home additions and have a revolving door of poorly trained, paid, disgruntled workers!

I respect your passion Wayne and spending up to fifteen hours resetting valve clearance you sound like you’re doing it your way and sure it’s perfection!
think about it a shop rate of $155.00 per hour x 16 hours = 2,480.00 plus parts maybe three hundred = 2,780.00, Tax, shop supplies close to 3,000, on a nine-year-old motorcycle with a resale value of maybe 5,000

Others like myself have been wrenching for years, hourly for some jobs or flat rate, ( flat rate set hours is what I believe this dealer was quoting ) cash, you learn efficiency and proficiency, knowing tools being prepared upfront.

it’s about honest money when you're in business, I have done enough Kawasaki sport bikes through the years, the ZX14 and the ZX14R, and have completed adjustments in six hours or less labor time.
Of course, parts are extra, but all you’re doing is swapping the used parts you removed, example you remove the spark plugs so that you can spin the engine over with 0 compression so that it does not creep move, then install new ones at that point, gaskets, spark plugs.

Every correct bolt and clip is installed back in their correct locations, cleaning of old Loc-tote using a primer for dissimilar metals before adding Loc-tite to steel bolts threading into aluminum brackets.

The customers that I chose to let inside our shop to have us work on their bikes are treated no differently than our shop race machines or personal road machines, and my bikes and employees are close to perfect.

Can’t imagine how hard an honest Kawasaki dealer has it trying to make it, their market share for total iron sold per year is less than six percent in the USA including dirt bikes, generators, watercraft, side-by-sides, and road bikes.

I’m blessed to have a passion for Vtwin, our base of support is much different, certainly learned a lot from this forum on how customers view technicians and dealerships, not this specific post in general but many posts.

Not to change the subject but a few years ago my topless dancer girlfriend purchased this CD set at a yard sale from some company called Angel Productions for about a dollar, she gave it to me cause it had something to do with motorcycles, we thought it was some movie, Turned out it was Concourse 14 Maintince for Dummies, this guy took his time to capture his knowledge and break it down into little bite-size portions for people who want to work on their bike, and find it difficult to change an air filter, they were brilliant for the home novice and the person making the video was extremely knowledgable.

My advice is for COG to host a YouTube channel and pay this man some royalties for members to watch and use the series.

Wayne hopes someday we can meet and have a beer and give you a tour of my Skunkworks!!

Jeff
 
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I really don't want to take my bike to a dealer as I just don't like the work done at any I've taken them to. I know there is a guy in Ohio that has mentioned he would help me do the valves, and from reading here I would get the other stuff while I got it taken apart. I have done everything on my 2001 C-10, why change with the C-14?

Oh, and BTW, the idiot dealer I bought my new '22 from made a mistake on the final sales bill with the wrong VIN that I caught, they split the difference and gave me a $500 credit towards future service to appease me, it was the best I was going to get, if it was not the final year and most probably the only '22 C-14 in Ohio, I would have walked away. But, I really don't want to take it to any dealer.
 
2andblue said:
@CoachTony no offense meant to the dealership people here, maybe it’s interpretation or a miscommunication, however - service interval for this maintenance need is by mileage not time - anyone that gives you time on this routine maintenance is not someone who should be performing this in depth work.

So…. since they had your machine on the lift and knew the mileage - they should have been warning you and advising that your machine is overdue for this service. I would suggest having this service done now, and preferably somewhere else.

5 hours, hmm…. Maybe I am just too picky and don’t use enough power tools but this job takes me more in the range of 13-15 hours of direct work time. I also remove the radiator which is another 30+ minutes of cycle time, and every fastener is torqued to exact spec I know many dealers do not do this either. I have seen some poor work ethics on machines that have been brought to me - including valves that are way outside of spec that were said to be ‘close enough’, yup that is right the dealer took the customer’s money but said the outside of clearance spec values that were measured and collected on paper were close enough… 😤

I see others have given further explanation on the physics here so I won’t go further into that.

Where are you located?

Wayne, Carol & Blue
Click to expand...
@Jeff.C is correct. The dealership did not bring up, or mention the Valve Job. I was there an asked about it. They have a published 10 year rule, as Jeff described accurately, which the Service Writer actually said that they don't enforce on "Very Well Maintained (caps were his emphasis) like yours." He went on to say that they use the rule to "protect themselves" from having to work on stuff that is beat up. The number one thing they don't allow is bikes where the fasteners are rusted, and second they look at the body panels/fairings and if they think there is any chance the plastic will break with removal, they won't touch it.
I know the Valves is a mileage based service. I am also a spend the money and keep things serviced well, and you save in the long run kind of guy. I plan to keep the Connie till at least 100K if not longer. I am the third owner and have no idea how well it was maintained prior to my ownership. I ride the daylights out of her, and long term I prefer to do preventative maintenance on my schedule rather than repairs which always seem to happen at inopportune times.
@2andblue: Thank you for taking the time and keeping your eye out for me. I appreciate it.
 
Tony, saying this and moving on, there is a dealer believe they were in Phoenix, couple of there service guys and myself meet up in KTM school.

Dealership had a strange name that for me is hard to remember AKKT something like that Kawasaki KTM Triumph!

They were from what I remember in school, as one of KTMs class act dealers, providing unparalleled service work, the few Techs in the entourage that week were all certified and trained to the hilt!

Think Steve was the Shop Forman maybe look those guys up, also you could always ask to meet and speak with a tech that will service your bike, ask for qualifications.

Good luck Tony, be happy your not in Ohio😉
 
Jeff.C said:
Think Steve was the Shop Forman.....
Dealership had a strange name that for me is hard to remember AKKT something like that Kawasaki KTM Triumph!
Click to expand...


Perhaps Tucson?

https://www.azkkt.com/

Our Service Department is a professionally equipped service facility with factory trained technicians. If you have any questions about our service department, please ask our Service Manager Steve Loster. AZKKT stands behind our work with a service guarantee.
Click to expand...
 
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Jeff.C said:
Tony, saying this and moving on, there is a dealer believe they were in Phoenix, couple of there service guys and myself meet up in KTM school.

Dealership had a strange name that for me is hard to remember AKKT something like that Kawasaki KTM Triumph!

They were from what I remember in school, as one of KTMs class act dealers, providing unparalleled service work, the few Techs in the entourage that week were all certified and trained to the hilt!

Think Steve was the Shop Forman maybe look those guys up, also you could always ask to meet and speak with a tech that will service your bike, ask for qualifications.

Good luck Tony, be happy your not in Ohio😉
Click to expand...
AZKKT is her in Tucson. I will be checking with them as well when it comes time. I haven't used them in the past for other service stuff because they seem to always tell me they are short handed and out 2 weeks.
Yes, I am grateful NOT to be in Ohio. Before moving to Arizona a year ago, we lived in Mishawaka, IN for 3 years. Not nearly enough riding season for me.
 
My independent mechanic charges me 6 hrs for a complete valve adjustment, and produces a shim map.
He owned a Concours before he got too many speeding tickets so he knows it well.
I know, I'm very lucky to have this guy
Nick
2014 C-14
 
S&P Motorsports, Merced, CA. (209) 724-9000
Just sayin'!!! Worth a look/call for anyone in the area. He treated me very well with some prior service work.
Small shop; great guys; I was VERY pleased with the service a couple years ago.
 
Jeff.C said:
*****removed my previous comment*****
The warning is not to drink and write!

The numbers your throwing out Tony, especially pushing it to forty thousand seems excessive, the valves & seats typically are the first parts that start wearing out within the engine life cycle from day one.
Click to expand...
I talked to a couple of fellas that had 80,000 plus on their Concours and had never had the valves done and seem amazed that they would need to be done. Not forum members.
 
First service seems like the clearances are all over the place. Makes me wonder how accurately they’re set at the factory.
 
Purchased a used 2010 with 21k on the clock. Valves were not done. Did valve adjustment myself, and 8 valves were out of spec tight. 4 intake and 4 exhaust. Just for reference.
 
longride said:
Purchased a used 2010 with 21k on the clock. Valves were not done. Did valve adjustment myself, and 8 valves were out of spec tight. 4 intake and 4 exhaust. Just for reference.
Click to expand...
Mine and machines of others that I’ve done all had 12 or more valves out of spec if above 25K miles and first adjustment. Subsequent adjustments move way less than the initial. Intake valves, I find, hardly move much after initial 20-25K miles. Exhaust moves enough to be adjusted every 20K miles but still well within spec.

Unless requested to do so, second valve check and on I go to the high side of middle of the spec. - first check I go high side of spec.

Wayne, Carol & Blue
 
CoachTony said:
Good tip!
I am hoping that my valves will be in pretty good shape. I currently have 29000 miles, and by next summer when I was thinking of getting it done, I will likely be between 36 and 40000 miles. I know it probably doesn't have to have it done, but since it is a 2015 and dealers seems to have the 10 year old rule, I thought I might get it done, so it is done and I don't have to worry about finding someone to do it later.
Click to expand...
A valve job is considered a nessasary service by 40,000 miles?

My 2010 valves was serviced ( adjusted )once before I bought with 32 k on it. At 52 K I had them checked... they were all in spec. I am 65 K now and won't do anything but drive it unless I hear or sense something isn't right.
 
I took mine at 27K to be done but my dude broke his shoulder before he got to it. I took it back at 38K when he healed.

Most were out of spec. He did my 2013 at 75K and changed the O ring. That thing is at 95K and still pulls like a train, I was excited to get the 18 back today so I rode the 13 for a few hours and then went to get the 18....I love both of them but I am blown away by how strong the one with 95 K still pulls.

Get a map when you get it done.

IMG_1800 (1).jpg
 
zrxmax said:
A valve job is considered a nessasary service by 40,000 miles?

My 2010 valves was serviced ( adjusted )once before I bought with 32 k on it. At 52 K I had them checked... they were all in spec. I am 65 K now and won't do anything but drive it unless I hear or sense something isn't right.
Click to expand...
Once you hear or suspect something wrong it’s too late. This isn’t like a clogged air filter, there is no easy fix to a burned exhaust valve seat - the most likely result of going way too long between valve checks (other than economy and power losses).

Then playing devil’s advocate for a moment you don’t hear people complaining about lack of performance or economy due to a burned exhaust valve seats. Does that mean it’s not happening, NO!

Don’t get me started on poor service…. Some customers’ machines have come in with dealership records stating that valves were measured and determined to be good, OR close enough..!!!! Only to be factually out of specification. Even some maps were created documenting out of specification valves but they said nah close enough….

There is a performance difference (smoothness / power) between a machine that is in spec vs an engine with tight valves leaking compression.

Wayne, Carol & Blue
 
FYI, I'm still doing valve adjustments. Email me for a written estimate. I normally include new plugs, coolant, air filter, and throttle body sync, but I can do as little or as much as you want. Valve cover gasket, head hole gaskets and cam sensor O rings get replaced on every one I do. I also tighten the header nuts while I'm in there and I provide a shim map when complete.
 
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Fred H. said:
FYI, I'm still doing valve adjustments. Email me for a written estimate. I normally include new plugs, coolant, air filter, and throttle body sync, but I can do as little or as much as you want. Valve cover gasket, head hole gaskets and cam sensor O rings get replaced on every one I do. I also tighten the header nuts while I'm in there and I provide a shim map when complete.
Click to expand...
Where are you located? Email? Please PM me if you prefer.
 
I do my own, following the procedure which Fred noted above. At 15k intervals. The exception was a throttle body sync at the first valve inspection because both bikes run smoothly across the entire throttle range. I may visit this at the second service, however.

That's always a good teardown point for the machine. I'm usually changing something with the accessory electronics so it's a lot easier to do with the plastic off.

Some data points:

Did my '08 at 14.9k and the '12 at 14.5k. (This was when I could get the machines into my service queue.) The '08 had 5 tight valves (2 intake; 3 exhaust).The '12 had 9: 3 intake (one actually below spec) and 6 exhaust (ditto). Note that none on either bike were excessively tight but definitely on the way to being so.

Each was set to the loose side of spec. I'll map and compare next time each is serviced. '08 is at 24k and is going to get a lot of electrical/electronics rework when it comes apart again.
 
I bought a 2010 with zero documentation from a stealer in Pasadena Texas. The previous owner was deceased. My concern is that it smokes at start up. Until it warms up. It has 34k on it. Symptoms I've seen on cars from valve seals. After I replaced the fuel pump the bike runs very good , but I'm concerned about the startup smoke.
 
kcmj697468 said:
I bought a 2010 with zero documentation from a stealer in Pasadena Texas. The previous owner was deceased. My concern is that it smokes at start up. Until it warms up. It has 34k on it. Symptoms I've seen on cars from valve seals. After I replaced the fuel pump the bike runs very good , but I'm concerned about the startup smoke.
Click to expand...
What kind of smoke is it? Blue, white, black? Maybe some red, white, and blue leftover from Independence Day celebrations? :p

Does it smell like oil? A bit of white smoke/vapor isn't uncommon from combustion water condensation until the exhaust heats up.
 
Blue, it's not much till I rev it , then it's a lot , to me. More than most of the bikes I've had, cept fer 2 strokes and one Harley, and a 74 750cb Honda.
 
Also, Ted and I were discusting whether the valve buckets could be removed with the cams on the backside of the lobe circle, or do they have to come out after mapping clearances.
 
kcmj697468 said:
Also, Ted and I were discusting whether the valve buckets could be removed with the cams on the backside of the lobe circle, or do they have to come out after mapping clearances.
Click to expand...
Shim under bucket like your modern smoking Kawasaki, require camshaft removal to access shims.

There used to be a shim above bucket but that type of valve train was heavier and not as reliable at high RPMs that modern engines can spin up to.
 
So all 16 valve springs need removal after clearance mapping and cam removal. Just glancing at online manual, didn't see references to valve seals. Also my Ford, Dodge, GM and Asian valve spring compressors aintabouta fit under that intake / frame assembly. I love buying new tools. Wifeypoo not so much. Lol. I suspect my spark plug air valve holder adapter will work. Oh well. Haven't been on a scrapiron, cornhole, or Mick tóol truck since quit turning wrenches , I suspect they'll welcome me back. Perchance some research will lead me to a Kawasaki valve spring cornpresser.
 
kcmj697468 said:
So all 16 valve springs need removal after clearance mapping and cam removal. Just glancing at online manual, didn't see references to valve seals. Also my Ford, Dodge, GM and Asian valve spring compressors aintabouta fit under that intake / frame assembly. I love buying new tools. Wifeypoo not so much. Lol. I suspect my spark plug air valve holder adapter will work. Oh well. Haven't been on a scrapiron, cornhole, or Mick tóol truck since quit turning wrenches , I suspect they'll welcome me back. Perchance some research will lead me to a Kawasaki valve spring cornpresser.
Click to expand...
Let’s say your engines valve stem seals are leaking, only way to properly perform the scope of work is to remove the head, and perform that part of the repair on a bench.

Cause of the monocoque style chassis no way to succeed at pulling the springs and guide seals.
 
kcmj697468 said:
Also, Ted and I were discusting whether the valve buckets could be removed with the cams on the backside of the lobe circle, or do they have to come out after mapping clearances.
Click to expand...
Ok - this is not by the book (not the way I do it) however, you can get the lifters out without removing the cams for at the least cylinders 1, 2 and possibly 3. It is possible but I think the risk to damaging something is way too high.

If interested I’ll share the process but again it’s not worth it, so let’s just skip that….

Perform measurements at indicated engine placement, set the engine in final placement with the timing rotor, pull the cams, remove and replace your shins as needed and retiming (assuming that is what you’re tying to avoid) is not difficult IF you follow the FSM instructions.

Don’t get into more than you are comfortable doing but if you have a FSM, moderate level of mechanical experience, a clean and controlled location, handful of required tools, and the time - then you can do this and do it the right way.

Wayne, Carol & Blue
 
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