08 broken down on trip--update

[flying wasp]

Posted last week that my 08 with 8000 miles on it left me stranded on the last leg of a 3 day trip.First i'll say that I purchased this bike used in mid June with 5100 on it. I was about 1200 miles into my trip through n. wisconsin and the u.p. of michigan. Things were going just fine. I stopped in Muinising mi at a Shell station and put almost 4 gals of 93 octane fuel in the bike. I was happy to see a Shell thinking I'll give her a good drink. Took off and ran about 80 miles then stopped for lunch. When I came out from lunch the bike would not start,it would turn over and cough a bit and at one point did run real rough and puked out some dark smoke for about 30 seconds.

I posted and read a lot of people say "bad gas" when I talked to the service guy, he said "sounds like bad gas". Well I picked the bike up today,the final diagnoses was BAD GAS FOULED ALL YOUR PLUGS! I siphoned the shell premium and added fresh before taking it to the dealer just to try,still a no start. This is a big Shell with probably 16 pumps. When I Siphoned, the first 1/4 gal went into a large clear pickle jar for a sample and the rest into a can. The sample had no water separation and smelled liked clean fuel. However it was the color of 50/50 mix of antifreeze. It almost looked like the pickle juice that I poured out of it. The fuel in the can eventually made it into my lawn tractor and tractor as the bike was waiting it's turn at the dealer. When I ran these 2, the exhaust smell was quite unusual. The tech said when he put new plugs in the bike it started and the exhaust smelled like kerosene?Asked if I was sure I did not put diesel in it? NO!

So the question is? What the hell did this place sell me? And why no sign of problems on my 80 mile run after the fill up? I work at one of the auto companies and am trying to track down someone to do some testing on the saved sample. Ah the best part....$45 for plugs and 3.5 hours of labor @ $90 an hour. Just sold a muzzleloader this past saturday and was ready to buy a few things for the bike. Handed almost all of it to the dealer this afternoon $375! I really want to try to get something from the station owner,but have read that is almost impossible.

sorry for so long

 

[B.D.F.]

No problem with the long post, and I sympathize with you about the cost and inconvenience of having gotten into a batch of bad fuel. Unfortunately I do not think there is much you can do about it unless the station owner is aware of contaminated fuel and offers some compensation, which is unlikely in my opinion.

As far as finding out what contaminated the fuel, the only thing I can think of is gas chromatography which will certainly work but will be expensive. Just as a thought, you might be able to contact someone at a local, large university and see if the chemistry dept. will 'play' with you regarding a fuel sample. They <may> run your fuel just as an exercise at no expense.

If it had happened to me I would really be curious as to what was in the fuel. Then again, exactly how ($$) curious I really don't know. If you find out what the fuel was contaminated with you <may> be able to get further with the fuel station owner but again, unless the owner was willing to compensate you to some amount it probably you probably cannot force him / her.

Brian

<snip>

sorry for so long

 

[flying wasp]

WTF--I just called up the Shell station to maybe try and pick up some info from whoever is working this eve? Asked the guy nicely "have you guy's been having any trouble with your premium fuel?" Response-"earlier in the month (I filled on the 8th) the supplier filled the premium tank with diesel fuel)????  YOU HAVE TO BE KIDDING ME!

He said call in the morning and the manager is taking full reports to get the supplier to refund affected customers for all repairs plus the original cost of the fuel. What other engine damage should I now be worried about? I'll keep you all posted   

 

[Fred H.]

A guy I know filled up at a station in a rural area and used the premium pump. His bike wouldn't start immediately afterwards. He siphoned the tank and the photo below shows what came out.

I try to make a practice of looking at the color of the gas coming out of the end of the nozzle. Fresh gas should look as clear as water. As it starts to go stale, the color will change and it will darken. If you ever see dark colored gas coming out, stop pumping. Whenever I am in a small town, I buy the cheapest grade they sell, cause I know their premium pumps will likely have stale gas in them.

I can't think of any damage that diesel fuel would do to the engine itself. I think the worst thing it might do is clog an injector or foul the plugs. I'm not sure how it would affect the catalytic convertors though, they might be something you need to keep an eye on.

 

[flying wasp]

Really?that pic looks like it came right from my pond. I work at General Motors and I can talk with some very intelligent engineers in the morning. I'm not making my report till I'm confident that other parts of the engine need to be inspected. Your next car or truck, please consider one from engineered in detroit!! good things are happening!

 

[B.D.F.]

Well, that at least sounds like you may get some compensation for your expenses in fixing that bad load of fuel.

Diesel fuel is nothing but a very light oil and will not do any harm to a gasoline engine over the long haul. It could cause some immediate damage but generally the engine runs so poorly (or not at all) that that is not likely. Diesel will actually be less aggressive to a fuel system than gasoline and is based on the same material (crude oil) so all the fuel components in the bike will handle diesel fuel without any problem (such as being corrosive as water in the fuel would be).  I would not worry about any long- term consequences if the bike runs properly now.

Good luck getting some compensation.

Brian

WTF--I just called up the Shell station to maybe try and pick up some info from whoever is working this eve? Asked the guy nicely "have you guy's been having any trouble with your premium fuel?" Response-"earlier in the month (I filled on the 8th) the supplier filled the premium tank with diesel fuel)????  YOU HAVE TO BE KIDDING ME!

He said call in the morning and the manager is taking full reports to get the supplier to refund affected customers for all repairs plus the original cost of the fuel. What other engine damage should I now be worried about? I'll keep you all posted   

 

[Fred H.]

Really?that pic looks like it came right from my pond. I work at General Motors and I can talk with some very intelligent engineers in the morning. I'm not making my report till I'm confident that other parts of the engine need to be inspected. Your next car or truck, please consider one from engineered in detroit!! good things are happening!

The catalytic converter would be my biggest concern. If the catalyst becomes contaminated, they won't light off properly, and over time, this might lead to them clogging up.

 

[Cap'n Bob]

Diesel! Well that would explain it. Now that you semi rust proofed your fuel system! Only kidding. I'm surprised that you managed to get 80 miles. I agree that once it's cleaned out of the fuel system, you should be fine. I also wonder about contamination of the converter. Although, if they are going to foot the bill for it. Get it replaced. Then you shouldn't have to worry about it.
  I'm actually surprised that you didn't smell diesel when pumping it  into the tank. Diesel emits quite a distinctive odor. So the contamination must not have been the majority of your tank being you were able to ride so far.  But obviously it is contaminated. Although if there's a diesel pump connected to the pump you were using. People tend to splash fuel around and you do get the overpowering smell of diesel! So you probably wouldn't have noticed anyway! I hope they take care of you and it all works out from here!

 

[flying wasp]

Update to the update to the update. The fuel supplier to the Shell station is reimbursing me the total bike service bill,cost of motel room and the fuel cost of my brothers 700 mile round trip to rescue me. I was ready for a battle and it did not happen. They apologized and said the check would be cut tuesday...$475.00

 

[smithr]

The chances of me filling up at a Shell just went up 20%

 

[C1xRider]

The chances of me filling up at a Shell just went up 20%

Not me.  One good deed done by the deliver company does not help me overcome the year+ of cursing I did thanks to a bad experience with a Shell station.

Update to the update to the update. The fuel supplier to the Shell station is reimbursing me the total bike service bill,cost of motel room and the fuel cost of my brothers 700 mile round trip to rescue me. I was ready for a battle and it did not happen. They apologized and said the check would be cut tuesday...$475.00

Glad to hear they are taking care of you though.  Did you mention you were concerned about the cats?  Did they say anything about them or future problems you may have?

 

[Mininsx]

I used to work in a refinery and that stuff happens every now and then, the driver just screws up and puts the wrong stuff in the tank.

 

[B.D.F.]

Great. Hey, accidents happen but at least the supplier is taking care of any legitimate expenses incurred because of that one. I think getting your expenses back is really pretty fair overall and it should take most of the 'pain' out of your fueling mishap.

As to worrying about the effects of diesel fuel on the catalytic converter, there really should not be any. Any diesel fuel coating the converter will just burn off once the system is up to temperature and it won't leave anything behind to contaminate or coat the converter. Coating the converter is a problem usually limited to metals, such as the lead in leaded fuel, which <could> build up sufficiently to isolate the converter from the exhaust gasses and prevent the catalytic reaction from taking place.

Brian

Update to the update to the update. The fuel supplier to the Shell station is reimbursing me the total bike service bill,cost of motel room and the fuel cost of my brothers 700 mile round trip to rescue me. I was ready for a battle and it did not happen. They apologized and said the check would be cut tuesday...$475.00

 

[Fred H.]

The law actually requires that gas stations pay for any damages they cause to vehicles when they sell bad gas, and I'm sure the Shell station owner knows it.

I wouldn't totally discount the effect of diesel on the cats. If it can foul the plugs, it can certainly do the same to cats. The easy way to know if they are effected would be to check them with an IR gun. You should have no more than 100 degree temp difference at the input and output sides of the CATs when they are lit off, and they should probably be in the 400 degree range. If the temp is too low, that would indicate they aren't lighting off.

In all likelyhood, they are probably ok, but I'd probably check them with an IR gun just to be sure.

 

[SonoitaJim]

I avoid Shell as much as possible.  A couple of years ago I filled up my new Element at the local Shell Station and headed out for the lake.  Within 2 miles it was skipping and barely running.  I limped back home and immediately suspected the gas.  Elements are nice as you can remove the sending unit through a plate in the floor pan so within 5 minutes I had a sample of gas.  The first thing I noticed was that it did not have that "gas smell"  There were no vapors at all.  It was like there was no octane in the fuel or something was missing.  Of course no one else reported a problem (this was the regular not premium).  I pumped it all out and got gas from the other station in town and it has run fine ever since. 

Now the C14 content.  A year later I was hard pressed to put gas in my C14 (35 miles to the nearest town from my home) and I was forced to put a few dollars of Shell in from the same station (the second station was out).  Within a few miles the C14 started to spark knock like there was no tomorrow.  I babied to town and filled it up with premium then babied it for the next few gallons.  Again no harm done but now I will never use Shell gas from the station where I live and shy away from any Shell station based on these two experiences.

Jim

 

[fl c14]

I put a full tank of diesel into my RC-51 that had ~5K on it. Started it up after fill up and 10 seconds later it was laying down a thick cloud of smoke and sputtering (but running). I figured out what happened (DUH!) I got a siphon hose and drained the tank -- BTW diesel doesn't taste so good...   
I then filled it up with premium and the bike wouldn't start. I kept cranking it over and over (all the time smoke is just pouring out the exhaust) and finally it caught and ran rough. I got it on the highway and opened it up - seemed to run fine, with some minor hesitations, but I kept the RPM's over 8K to burn the rest out.

End of story - one more full tank - no problems I had the bike for over 25K with no issues at all after that, I guess I lubed my top end fairly well though....