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2009 C14 went into limp mode last night...

Nybiomed

Nybiomed

Guest
Guest
IDK what happened, nothing unusal, was riding along 2-up, she just lost 2/3 of her power and won't idle. No errors noted on the display, got home ok, but something is wrong. Without any errors flashing to clue me in, I'm stuck until I can get out there....I'm actually hosting a wrenching session on Sunday, so I guess we'll have a lot of eyes on it real good then, lol
The C14 only has 12.5k miles on it, was riding just fine, no unusual noises...low fuel warning NOT on, but she is low with only 1 bar.
Anybody want to suggest were to start looking?
:(
 
NYbiomed said:
IDK what happened, nothing unusal, was riding along 2-up, she just lost 2/3 of her power and won't idle. No errors noted on the display, got home ok, but something is wrong. Without any errors flashing to clue me in, I'm stuck until I can get out there....I'm actually hosting a wrenching session on Sunday, so I guess we'll have a lot of eyes on it real good then, lol
The C14 only has 12.5k miles on it, was riding just fine, no unusual noises...low fuel warning NOT on, but she is low with only 1 bar.
Anybody want to suggest were to start looking?
:(
Click to expand...

Sounds like a fueling problem.  I'd check:

1) Fuel pickup sock/filter.  This is internal to the tank and a part of the fuel pump assembly.  But it's somewhat undersized and can easily get plugged up with just one tank of dirty fuel.

2) Bad tank of fuel.  Drain it out and dispose of properly.  Get some fresh fuel and see if that helps.

3) Failing fuel pump.  It happens.  Best way to check is to use a fuel line pressure gauge.  FI engines don't run without good fuel pressure.

 
remove the battery, abrasively clean all the cable ends, and respective terminals and frame ground points, and reinstall....

I've seen this same issue a dozen times, and I suggest doing the simple things first....
I know it may sound odd, but this bike is notorious for connection issues.
 
MAN OF BLUES said:
remove the battery, abrasively clean all the cable ends, and respective terminals and frame ground points, and reinstall....

I've seen this same issue a dozen times, and I suggest doing the simple things first....
I know it may sound odd, but this bike is notorious for connection issues.
Click to expand...

Yah, thanks, I've seen the grounding issue pop-up a bunch of times....will be the first thing I try when I get home from work :great:
 
^^^I don't have a service manual and a buddy I work with asked me to come over and help him move after work, but I'll know more in the next few hours....
I've seen peeps selling electronic copies of the service manual on eBay for a few dollars, is there another "resource" we have as COG members to view/download a manual??
 
NYbiomed said:
^^^I don't have a service manual and a buddy I work with asked me to come over and help him move after work, but I'll know more in the next few hours....
I've seen peeps selling electronic copies of the service manual on eBay for a few dollars, is there another "resource" we have as COG members to view/download a manual??
Click to expand...

I encourage you to get a legit copy.  The ones you usually see on ebay are illegal copies but I did get a nice used one for about $40 there.  I'm not a fan of using pirated material.

But if you're doing anything on your C14, the Service Manual is essential!  If you want to find a pirate PDF copy the usual searches in the usual places will surely net you one.  There are two versions of the manual, the 2008 version covers 08/09.  The 2010+ manual covers 2010 and later.  I understand there is a 2015 model addendum but not a new manual.  Ron Ayers sells a factory fresh legitimate version for about $70 BTW.
 
I removed the battery and cleaned the 2 chassis grounds where the battery connects to the frame, they looked pretty good but I burnished them with a Dremel and applied dielectric grease to them, but to no avail. I'm gonna go get a few gallons of ethanol free premium fuel and see what happens next...does anyone know where I'd hook up the fuel pressure gauge, a pic would be great? I did find a mouse's nest behind the battery that I vacuumed out, what was that shiny device just behind the battery that looked like it had 4 hard fuel fittings to it....is that the fuel pump or is the fuel pump connected to the pickup/sock inside the tank?

Update:
ZOINKS :-\ ! Fuel pump is $332 bucks from BikeBandit.... :( I saw on the OEM schematics the the pump is integral to the pickup.
 
NYbiomed said:
<snip>  I did find a mouse's nest behind the battery that I vacuumed out...
Click to expand...

May want to consider a close inspection to verify that the mice did not gnaw at the wiring.


 
S Smith said:
NYbiomed said:
<snip>  I did find a mouse's nest behind the battery that I vacuumed out...
Click to expand...

May want to consider a close inspection to verify that the mice did not gnaw at the wiring.
Click to expand...

Yeah I could see in there fairly well with a flashlight, didn't see anything out of the norm...fuel pump assemblies are available from eBay for about $100 bucks, I see a clean one from a 2012 for $130, but should I just buy new? I also see the fuel pumps themselves for $20, are all model years the same?
Does the mothball thing really keep the mice away, I could easily throw a few in there.
 
Might pay to check the air induction/air filter.
Maybe Mr. Mousie's set up a new residence in there....?
JAT
 
I am (at this point) planning on attending the tech session you are hosting tomorrow. If I can help where no one else had already been enlisted, we could take a look at a bunch of stuff. I do not claim to know anything other than my name, and I forget that sometimes. But maybe a spare set of eyes may be able to help. Do you have a C14 service manual for?  If need be, I still might have access to a 2008 PDF version on laptop. But I personally prefer paper copies.
 
so you cleaned the grounds, but no mention of the battery itself....those need to be checked.
as for checking fuel pressure, I don't think that gauge is gonna help, there are special quick connects on the fuel line....

mice can't get into the airbox.
they do however really like the area up in the tail section near the ecu, and all that wiring, and will chew those up... I had this happen, they chewed a whole wire bundle there, and luckily I found it prior to firing the bike up....

they also nest up on top of the engine, by the throttle position sensor, and chew those wires.... had that happen also....

before you go buying more stuff, check those areas closely....


mothballs don't work.... make a spray out of habanero peppers and water, in a food processor, and strain it for use as a liquid in a spray bottle... spray that on the wires in those area...

I had to repair the insulation on at least 20 wires, using "liquid tape" and a lot of pieces of electrical tape...

best of luck


you need a manual.







top of engine by throttle position sensor

 
Wow...that's some heavy rodent damage :eek:  Well, I put in 2 gallons of fuel, same problem...I want to say I hear the whine of a bad fuel pump, but I cannot be certain? It might be that the sock/filter is clogged with debris, I'll check tomorrow when I have another set of eyes/hands from fellow COGgers, I'm having a PDF of the service manual sent to me, I've actually been trying to get a hard copy service manual off EBay for months, I was trying to get one for $50 bucks or so and put in an offer for one about 3 weeks ago, but the guy wasn't going for it, there's one for $64 that I guess I should've bought, hindsight being 20/20 of course...what's the story of these fuel pumps for $20bucks?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-OEM-Replace-Fuel-Pump-for-Kawasaki-Concours-14-ABS-ZG1400-CAF-2010/271875642785?_trksid=p2045573.c100033.m2042&_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20131017132637%26meid%3D388028d1fa7f453297e1616f97294872%26pid%3D100033%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D381320628576

I'm thinking of pulling the trigger on the 2012 fuel pump assembly listed on EBay....if the above won't work.

Thanks Cap'n Bob, they'll be plenty of refreshments of all kinds as thanks!
 
when you turn the key to on, the pump can be heard whining for 3 seconds, then pressure has developed, and you won't hear it untill it needs fuel, it cannot be heard during normal operation with engine running, as it only cycles on of when needed.

please check the areas I showed for mouse damage, if they chew the wires at the subthrottle position sensor, which happened to my bike, it will give the exact symptoms you had of "limp" mode, that sensor controls fuel injection and timing based on throttle position sensed...

I seriously don't think you have a physically bad pump.

you only have 12.5k miles on it.....

do you have extended warranty on this bike currently?

no matter what you do, you will still need to pull the plastic to remove the tank, so before spending money, pull the stuff off and look.
 
^^^^no extended warranty and the battery was just replaced at the dealership in March when I bought the bike. I have a Battery Tender on it right now, it's blinking red- meaning that it's charging but below 80%. Of course I have not checked where the other chassis ground terminates, referring to the second chassis ground immediately to the right of where the NEG battery terminal grounds to the frame.

...and by the way, THANKS MOB
 
Zero signs of rodent infiltration under the seat, actually looks quite clean, and I was riding the bike when "it" failed...
 
check the top of the engine where the throttle position sensor lives.

I had that area compromised twice, I check everytime now after winter storage.
 
i had a similar problem.  changing the fuel filter offered only a very temporary relief. 

honestly imo, youre wasting your money with the fuel pressure tester.  for half the price you can buy an entirely new fuel pump motor from ebay.  mine was $20 and 30 minutes of time to switch out motors from the pump assembly.  it even came with a new filter!

i hope you get the problem fixed soon...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-OEM-Replace-Fuel-Pump-for-Kawasaki-Concours-14-ZG1400-B8F-2008-/271875645873?hash=item3f4d0d21b1&vxp=mtr
 
tjhess74 said:
i had a similar problem.  changing the fuel filter offered only a very temporary relief. 

honestly imo, youre wasting your money with the fuel pressure tester.  for half the price you can buy an entirely new fuel pump motor from ebay.  mine was $20 and 30 minutes of time to switch out motors from the pump assembly.  it even came with a new filter!

i hope you get the problem fixed soon...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-OEM-Replace-Fuel-Pump-for-Kawasaki-Concours-14-ZG1400-B8F-2008-/271875645873?hash=item3f4d0d21b1&vxp=mtr
Click to expand...

Yep, bought that very pump, I'll know in a few days and will report back. That's 3 people that needed a fuel pump....obviously one of the few problems of the C14, but does it cover all years or was it isolated to the 1st gen?

MOB: I checked the area above the engine and in the back tail, no rodent damage, btw- the nest I pulled out from behind the battery looked old.

stevewfl: no PC of any kind
 
Bike is still down battery reads 12.9 VDC, 14.3 while running. Replaced the fuel pump the other night- no change. Definitely no signs of rodent damage anywhere...she actually seems to start up rather easily the first time, she dies after I stop feeding her throttle....then she's a harder to start after that until she rests for 10 minutes where she starts right up again.
Anymore guesses before I throw in the towel and bring her in?
 
Landon said:
I would try a new battery. Does not sound like yours is holding a charge.
Click to expand...

I have considered this, but 12.9VDC, 14.3 running, is pretty good...the battery was installed new from the dealer in March, but stranger things have happened. I have one of those battery testers at work I could bring home, but I see the Deltran 240A lithium batteries for just over $100 bucks from Amazon, not the worst investment to rule out probably the most common issue...and lose nearly 10lbs too ;D

Matt: I just fogged the throttle bodies with starter fluid, looking to see if there's a vacuum leak, no effect.
 
I just got home Rick. I haven't been on the forum since Friday morning, but I did just get your PM. I do wonder about the battery. Unfortunately, swapping fuel tanks would have exposed this ahead of time, unfortunately we were not able to do that at your home during the tech session. Why don't you try pulling up to see if there is any diagnostic codes stored. If there is a code, that may give a direction to look rather than the poke and hope method. Here's a link to a thread that has the codes and how to pull them up. Probably something else we should have done earlier (if it wasn't already). 

http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php/topic,26973.0.html


Troubleshooting the DFI starts around pg3-23 in the service manual. Self diagnostics around pg3-36. (If you have a service manual, if not give me a call tomorrow.) It might help immensely. 
 
NYbiomed said:
I have considered this, but 12.9VDC, 14.3 running, is pretty good...the battery was installed new from the dealer in March, but stranger things have happened.
Click to expand...

I once got a lawn mower battery that didn't last 3 months and it had a dead cell. I would take it to the dealer and have them test the battery, if you bought it in march it should still be under warranty. Most batteries carry at least a one year warranty.
 
Landon said:
NYbiomed said:
I have considered this, but 12.9VDC, 14.3 running, is pretty good...the battery was installed new from the dealer in March, but stranger things have happened.
Click to expand...

I once got a lawn mower battery that didn't last 3 months and it had a dead cell. I would take it to the dealer and have them test the battery, if you bought it in march it should still be under warranty. Most batteries carry at least a one year warranty.
Click to expand...

Dealership is 5+ hrs away, lol, just going to order one. Well, I really learned a lot so far!
 
Well I cannot say I blame you. Do you have a Batteries Plus near you? I like to buy batteries there as they have a year warranty and they are in most major cities if you have battery issues while traveling.
 
NYbiomed said:
Landon said:
I would try a new battery. Does not sound like yours is holding a charge.
Click to expand...

I have considered this, but 12.9VDC, 14.3 running, is pretty good...the battery was installed new from the dealer in March, but stranger things have happened. I have one of those battery testers at work I could bring home, but I see the Deltran 240A lithium batteries for just over $100 bucks from Amazon, not the worst investment to rule out probably the most common issue...and lose nearly 10lbs too ;D

Matt: I just fogged the throttle bodies with starter fluid, looking to see if there's a vacuum leak, no effect.
Click to expand...

those voltages really don't mean much, because you are reading them at the connections.
you really need to have the battery load tested, off the bike....
most auto parts stores can do that for you..... before you spend more money.
 
^^^weather was threatening, didn't want to get too involved, but I load tested the battery while it was still installed on the bike and it read quite strong, sooo-o-o, very unlikely its the battery. The bike seems to run quite well for the first 20 seconds, then she gradually begins to decline, finally after 45 sec starts to bog under throttle- hard to restart, wait 10/15 minutes, she starts up easily again :eek:
 
NYbiomed said:
^^^weather was threatening, didn't want to get too involved, but I load tested the battery while it was still installed on the bike and it read quite strong, sooo-o-o, very unlikely its the battery. The bike seems to run quite well for the first 20 seconds, then she gradually begins to decline, finally after 45 sec starts to bog under throttle- hard to restart, wait 10/15 minutes, she starts up easily again :eek:
Click to expand...

please explain the method used to load test your batt on bike, and what were the values you saw.
 
MAN OF BLUES said:
NYbiomed said:
^^^weather was threatening, didn't want to get too involved, but I load tested the battery while it was still installed on the bike and it read quite strong, sooo-o-o, very unlikely its the battery. The bike seems to run quite well for the first 20 seconds, then she gradually begins to decline, finally after 45 sec starts to bog under throttle- hard to restart, wait 10/15 minutes, she starts up easily again :eek:
Click to expand...

please explain the method used to load test your batt on bike, and what were the values you saw.
Click to expand...

Used this:

http://www.amazon.com/Schumacher-BT-100-Battery-Load-Tester/dp/B000AMBOI0/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1439318421&sr=8-2&keywords=battery+load+tester

I use this at work fairly often, pretty good device actually...I simply pulled the battery out a few inches to get the pos clamp on the pos terminal, then used the chassis ground for the neg clamp. Push the rocker switch, VOILA! The needle barely moved at all, battery is solid. I even have a marine battery that I hooked up to it in parallel, without any change....I so wish it was as simple as the battery. :mad:
 
Just bought the entire fuel pump assembly from a 2012 C14 off Ebay for $100 bucks, everything seems to be pointing to fuel pump and several others (ahem, MATT!) agree...The mechanic a few miles away has heard of the non-OEM fuel pumps from the internet not being sufficient/not working...guess we'll see...again :(

Of course, it's always easier when you've done it before, lol, but It is a major PITA trying to get that orange fuel connector off with one hand when the other is holding up the tank. I'll be smarter this time and use some foam blocks I have at work to hold the tank up...
:)
 
Nice, just scored a service manual for $40 off eBay, this will help too, tho I already have the PDF version. Pump is coming from New Hampshire, so it should only be a couple days out, well before the manual I'd expect- from San Diego, CA.

Tomorrow is 3 weeks  :16:
 
Installed the fuel pump assembly from the 2012, no change. Tried to drive it to the shop about 5 miles away, made it 2. Stalled, couldn't get it going, had it towed  :mad:

Tomorrow is 4 weeks, so depressed about this, depending on the problem I might de-farkle and sell everything off...maybe a green 2015 for $11k, who knows...
 
NYbiomed said:
Installed the fuel pump assembly from the 2012, no change. Tried to drive it to the shop about 5 miles away, made it 2. Stalled, couldn't get it going, had it towed  :mad:

Tomorrow is 4 weeks, so depressed about this, depending on the problem I might de-farkle and sell everything off...maybe a green 2015 for $11k, who knows...
Click to expand...

best to you, know what it's like to have a bike down, rode 1 day since july 2nd. still not fixed either.  :mad:
 
I would check to see if there is something blocking fuel flow. Sounds like the ping pong ball in the fuel tank. it gets drawn down to the fuel intake cuts off fuel and creates a vacuum. Let it set, it releases and starts the cycle over. Could be dirt or a foreign object in the tank. Just a thought and a cheap check.
 
BigK said:
I would check to see if there is something blocking fuel flow. Sounds like the ping pong ball in the fuel tank. it gets drawn down to the fuel intake cuts off fuel and creates a vacuum. Let it set, it releases and starts the cycle over. Could be dirt or a foreign object in the tank. Just a thought and a cheap check.
Click to expand...

he noted a few lines above, that he replaced the fuel pump....no joy..... :-X


ping pong ball?????
 
With only 12.5K I can't imagine it but I have heard of bikes with valves out of adjust that wouldn't start or run for long. Are you positive of the miles on this bike? Speedo replacement? One never knows on used bikes.  The obvious choice though would have to do with the shredded wiring. Stranger things have happened though. Another wild card could be the stator. I came from a 900 Vulcan and they are notorious for stator failures....most have a dead or dying battery but some just run like crap and quit running altogether like yours does. The stator test on the Vulcan is fairly quick and easy but I'm not sure of the process on the C14.....might be worth a quick check though if you are still scratching your head and looking for random problems. If the wiring to the stator is shredded you would find that out too. This is a strange one. Good luck.
 
I'm with the clogged vent theory.  Runs just long enough to pull a vacuum and stalls.  Just run with the gas cap open and see if it stalls.  Sorry if I missed this earlier
 
I'm starting to wonder about plugs and wires/stick coils. Although it doesn't have many miles, it's now 6 years or more old and IIRC, sits outside kind of in the weather, covered. It ran rough basically every time I heard it run. I personally had opened the gas cap which would have relieved any possible built up pressure. It never started and ran smooth other than maybe idle. Although I can't remember if it would idle or if we always applying throttle to keep it running. It acts like it's starving for fuel. But plugs/wires do come to mind. Maybe the throttle position sensor itself.
 
Cap'n Bob said:
I'm starting to wonder about plugs and wires/stick coils. Although it doesn't have many miles, it's now 6 years or more old and IIRC, sits outside kind of in the weather, covered. It ran rough basically every time I heard it run. I personally had opened the gas cap which would have relieved any possible built up pressure. It never started and ran smooth other than maybe idle. Although I can't remember if it would idle or if we always applying throttle to keep it running. It acts like it's starving for fuel. But plugs/wires do come to mind. Maybe the throttle position sensor itself.
Click to expand...

I'm thinking along the same lines now that Bubba Steve in Fla found a bad connection back at the relay box on his, that was causing a current drain.
it was on the same circuit that controls the throttle sensor. Maybe more bikes have that issue.

I would look at those connections, unplug them, and replug them in, pushing on the individual wires in the connectors to force them onto the mating pins, and also the connectors at the tps unit.

it was my first thoughts all from the bigining due to the mouse damage I incurred in the past, that the tps and sensor up there wasn't correctly reading, and causing fuel delivery issues...

at least the inspection and experiments don't cost anything, and stumbling upon the bad connection would be a nice happy ending...
 
The well-equipped garage I bought the bike to believes I may have lost a valve on the left side, he can't get elbow deep into it as he's going in for hip replace surgery next week, I have have it towed to a dealer...oy vey. He believes it may not be able to build vacuum due to a valve problem, gonna have to dig deep on this I guess.
 
NYbiomed said:
The well-equipped garage I bought the bike to believes I may have lost a valve on the left side, He believes it may not be able to build vacuum due to a valve problem
Click to expand...
Wouldn't a leak down test show if this were the case?
 
That well equipped shop should be able to stick a bore scope down the spark plug hole and see for sure. I would do that before laying out the cash for another/new motor.
 
NYbiomed said:
The well-equipped garage I bought the bike to believes I may have lost a valve on the left side, he can't get elbow deep into it as he's going in for hip replace surgery next week, I have have it towed to a dealer...oy vey. He believes it may not be able to build vacuum due to a valve problem, gonna have to dig deep on this I guess.
Click to expand...

  OK, let me explain a couple things. If he's talking vacuum, the vacuum to an individual cylinder doesn't mean anything to the computer unless it involves an intake valve. The resulting intake pressure from exposed combustion when the valve is leaking will pressurise the intake and give a poor IAP reading (map sensor). the IAP would be low, so the computer would compensate by going rich. You should also be hearing muffled backfires. If it was an exhaust valve it would backfire from the exhaust. Either way a compression test is all you need. 

Here's the symptoms of leaky valves and low compression 1) won't idle 2) slow to rev 3) backfiring, intake and / or exhaust 4) worse when warm . Not saying this is the issue, just reporting. Steve
 
Steve in Sunny Fla said:
NYbiomed said:
The well-equipped garage I bought the bike to believes I may have lost a valve on the left side, he can't get elbow deep into it as he's going in for hip replace surgery next week, I have have it towed to a dealer...oy vey. He believes it may not be able to build vacuum due to a valve problem, gonna have to dig deep on this I guess.
Click to expand...

  OK, let me explain a couple things. If he's talking vacuum, the vacuum to an individual cylinder doesn't mean anything to the computer unless it involves an intake valve. The resulting intake pressure from exposed combustion when the valve is leaking will pressurise the intake and give a poor IAP reading (map sensor). the IAP would be low, so the computer would compensate by going rich. You should also be hearing muffled backfires. If it was an exhaust valve it would backfire from the exhaust. Either way a compression test is all you need. 

Here's the symptoms of leaky valves and low compression 1) won't idle 2) slow to rev 3) backfiring, intake and / or exhaust 4) worse when warm . Not saying this is the issue, just reporting. Steve
Click to expand...

Well, she clearly has several of the symptoms outlined above, dealer won't be able to look at it for a week or so....hopefully I'll be able to make the Fall Rally at the end of September...?
 
BTW, I would think a low IAP reading would throw a code. Your dealer needs to hook the bike up to a kds system to start his diagnosis. warm IAP readings should be around 25-26cm/hg . steve
 
Steve in Sunny Fla said:
BTW, I would think a low IAP reading would throw a code. Your dealer needs to hook the bike up to a kds system to start his diagnosis. warm IAP readings should be around 25-26cm/hg . steve
Click to expand...

Steve,

I'm sure why that would throw a code.  The IAP is a measurement and the ECU adjusts fueling based on that input.  On US models of the C14 there is no O2 sensor on the output which would, if present, show a problem where the IAP is saying one thing and the ECU is adjusting for it but the O2 is not following as it should.  I think that would generate a code.

Most auto systems are much more sophisticated and have MAF, IAP (or MAP), O2, knock, etc.  They can usually even diagnose a failed spark plug to the cylinder number.

But since the C14 is essentially "open loop", the ECU assumes that based on a given input the output is going to be right. 

Just my take but I may be overlooking something.
 
jwh20 said:
I'm sure why that would throw a code.  The IAP is a measurement and the ECU adjusts fueling based on that input.  On US models of the C14 there is no O2 sensor on the output which would, if present, show a problem where the IAP is saying one thing and the ECU is adjusting for it but the O2 is not following as it should.  I think that would generate a code.

Most auto systems are much more sophisticated and have MAF, IAP (or MAP), O2, knock, etc.  They can usually even diagnose a failed spark plug to the cylinder number.

But since the C14 is essentially "open loop", the ECU assumes that based on a given input the output is going to be right. 

Just my take but I may be overlooking something.
Click to expand...

  So are you meaning "it would not throw a code" ? I could see why it wouldn't because without the 02 sensors thers no information to say something's out of whack. That's also why I included the warm IAP readings, so if there's no code but the readings are higher  it would indicate bad valves and a pressurized intake.

  BTW, I did a video about this a while ago  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQEFWeFeqUo

Steve
 
^^great video

So Mattchewn has selflessly offered to drive 5+ hrs each way to help me out, so towing to the dealer will be delayed. We'll get elbows deep into her on Saturday and figure this out!!
"Join for the bike...stay for the people" never meant so much, thanks Matt! Feel energized again and confident I'll make the Fall Rally, my first rally. Beers on me boys  :great:
 
Steve in Sunny Fla said:
jwh20 said:
I'm sure why that would throw a code.  The IAP is a measurement and the ECU adjusts fueling based on that input.  On US models of the C14 there is no O2 sensor on the output which would, if present, show a problem where the IAP is saying one thing and the ECU is adjusting for it but the O2 is not following as it should.  I think that would generate a code.

Most auto systems are much more sophisticated and have MAF, IAP (or MAP), O2, knock, etc.  They can usually even diagnose a failed spark plug to the cylinder number.

But since the C14 is essentially "open loop", the ECU assumes that based on a given input the output is going to be right. 

Just my take but I may be overlooking something.
Click to expand...

  So are you meaning "it would not throw a code" ? I could see why it wouldn't because without the 02 sensors thers no information to say something's out of whack. That's also why I included the warm IAP readings, so if there's no code but the readings are higher  it would indicate bad valves and a pressurized intake.

  BTW, I did a video about this a while ago  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQEFWeFeqUo

Steve
Click to expand...

Yes, I mis-typed!  I meant to say: I'm sure NOT why that would throw a code.

But you confirmed my thinking.  Indeed something could be messed up and the ECU could be fooled into mis-fueling the engine but there is no feedback (i.e. O2 sensor) to tell it say, "Houston, we have a problem..."

 
jwh20 said:
Yes, I mis-typed!  I meant to say: I'm sure NOT why that would throw a code.

But you confirmed my thinking.  Indeed something could be messed up and the ECU could be fooled into mis-fueling the engine but there is no feedback (i.e. O2 sensor) to tell it say, "Houston, we have a problem..."
Click to expand...

I guess I have to ask here, are you basing this on nothing showing up,
or are you actually going into diagnostic mode, manually, and trying to invoke any error codes, as outlined in the manual?

there ar a seg stps of procedure to go thru "invisible codes, ones that simply don't " pop up when you turn the ignition on" that must be invoked thru manual means, I have a feeling this process has not been done, and it is outlined as to how to do this in the FSM... but don't mess with it on your own, I think Matt knows the procedure, and he can run thru it when he gets there, reason I say this is pressing the wrong button, at the wrong time, you willnerase allnstored error codes, making it difficult to analyze....
 
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