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ATTENTION ALL C10 owners with C14 rear shock!

mbsevans2722

mbsevans2722

Member
Member
Question, with a C14 rear shock and its subsequent rear height increase, does anyone find that it makes straight line handling, at speed a bit nervous feeling? This decrease in caster and trail, creates a wheebarrow effect and as much as it makes my Connie feel a little more ”flickable”, I would rather not have that happening. On the other hand, I realize that at speed handling is also affected by the sizeable fairing, which I am not used to. Does anyone else experience wind gusts and turbulence from large vehicles ahead of you, causing yawing and rolling movement that also contributes to this nervous feel? Yes, the front end is completely rebuilt, new head bearings etc. I have dropped the fort tubes about 4mm in triple clamps and I think there is enough meat there, to drop them another 4 or 5mm, in order to compensate for the rear shock, but I am curious about the experience of others with this combination. I can deal with it, while at speed, but it’s just barely tolerable. Thoughts?
 
I question that it's the geometry change that is causing your nervous feeling.
Could be tire selection/windshield/etc.

Apologies. I have little time right now. So quick note.
** I had mine set up the same as yours and didn't have the issue.

I currently have a Norm Soucy lowering Rocker on the rear so the rear is approx. the same height as stock, and I lowered the front to quicken the steering.
ie; approx. the same geometry as yours.

More later, Ride safe, Ted
 
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connie_rider said:
I question that it's the geometry change that is causing your nervous feeling.
Could be tire selection/windshield/etc.

Apologies. I have little time right now. So quick note.
** I had mine set up the same as yours and didn't have the issue.

I currently have a Norm Soucy lowering Rocker on the rear so the rear is approx. the same height as stock, and I lowered the front to quicken the steering. ie; about the same geometry as yours.

More later, Ride safe, Ted
Click to expand...
Thanks Ted.
 
Just to provide more information on this issue. I was given the bike in March of 22 and stripped her down to frame and engine and rebuilt and refurbished most everything on her. So, new All Balls head bearings were in that mix as well. Now here is why I mention that…I also experience a distinct clunk, both audibly AND through the bars, when hitting expansion joints and bumps. And this clunk is rarely heard just running over bumps or manhole cover depressions, but it is most pronounced during braking. So…last summer I had her up on my work stand and adjusted the head bearings many many times, going slightly too tight and getting the subsequent weave at slow speeds, so then loosening them off slightly until the weave is gone. But are the head bearings causing the clunk? Hard to tell. If I place my fingers on the point of the head below the triple trees where the rotation of the head takes place and feel for any motion in that spot while hitting bumps I dont feel any movement or looseness. I think what I need to do is get a guy near me by the name of Rob Armstrong who is a Connie owner and parts manager at Two Wheel Motorsports in Guelph Ontario, to take her for a ride and see what his opinion is.
 
mbsevans2722 said:
Just to provide more information on this issue. I was given the bike in March of 22 and stripped her down to frame and engine and rebuilt and refurbished most everything on her. So, new All Balls head bearings were in that mix as well. Now here is why I mention that…I also experience a distinct clunk, both audibly AND through the bars, when hitting expansion joints and bumps. And this clunk is rarely heard just running over bumps or manhole cover depressions, but it is most pronounced during braking. So…last summer I had her up on my work stand and adjusted the head bearings many many times, going slightly too tight and getting the subsequent weave at slow speeds, so then loosening them off slightly until the weave is gone. But are the head bearings causing the clunk? Hard to tell. If I place my fingers on the point of the head below the triple trees where the rotation of the head takes place and feel for any motion in that spot while hitting bumps I dont feel any movement or looseness. I think what I need to do is get a guy near me by the name of Rob Armstrong who is a Connie owner and parts manager at Two Wheel Motorsports in Guelph Ontario, to take her for a ride and see what his opinion is.
Click to expand...
Check the upper fairing bracket bolt on the steering head and make sure it is good and tight.
 
First question; You sed (So, new All Balls head bearings)

Important; Did you replace the bearings AND also the races that are pressed into the neck of the bike?
 
connie_rider said:
First question; You sed (So, new All Balls head bearings)

Important; Did you replace the bearings AND also the races that are pressed into the neck of the bike?
Click to expand...
Absolutely! Pounded old races out, threw some threaded rod and big body washers etc together and drove those suckers into the head stock.
 
I’ve been following this with interest and hoping I could help. I’ve never had this issue with my ‘00 but I did not install my C-14 shock until after my Mean Streak rear.
Can’t say I know what it feels like if you’re still with the stock rear.
How are the condition of your tires?
What brand? I know some have had issues with different brands/ models.
All the best, Doug
 
cragantler said:
I’ve been following this with interest and hoping I could help. I’ve never had this issue with my ‘00 but I did not install my C-14 shock until after my Mean Streak rear.
Can’t say I know what it feels like if you’re still with the stock rear.
How are the condition of your tires?
What brand? I know some have had issues with different brands/ models.
All the best, Doug
Click to expand...
Brand new Avons, were given to me along with the bike.
 
On the C-10's there has been some concerns with the radials.
(Wobble at speeds or when near a vehicle).
Some think the current Rear Radials may have too weak of sidewall.
One of the main Radials that come up with the issue was the Avons. ("I think")
Look thru the Forum and you should be able to find notes about the tire problem.

NOTE: Several replaced the rear radials with Belted tires and the issue went away.

In some cases, I know that some have installed huge windshields and that contributed to the problem.

Ride safe, Ted
 
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I concur with Ted. Many radial sportbike radials are not designed for the weight of a C-10. I experienced the same issue the 1st time I installed Avon 46's on mine. It felt like I was riding on sand. Many of those tires had separation issues in the belts. As I have posted many times I had really good luck with the Avon AM-26's (bias ply tires) on my C-10 before I did the 17" conversion. The AM-26'S handle extremely well. If you know anyone who ever followed me thru the twisties they can attest to the handling of those tires on my bike. Unlike many bias ply tires they do not have the heavy feel that many complain about on other bias tires.
 
mbsevans2722 said:
Question, with a C14 rear shock and its subsequent rear height increase, does anyone find that it makes straight line handling, at speed a bit nervous feeling? This decrease in caster and trail, creates a wheebarrow effect and as much as it makes my Connie feel a little more ”flickable”, I would rather not have that happening. On the other hand, I realize that at speed handling is also affected by the sizeable fairing, which I am not used to. Does anyone else experience wind gusts and turbulence from large vehicles ahead of you, causing yawing and rolling movement that also contributes to this nervous feel? Yes, the front end is completely rebuilt, new head bearings etc. I have dropped the fort tubes about 4mm in triple clamps and I think there is enough meat there, to drop them another 4 or 5mm, in order to compensate for the rear shock, but I am curious about the experience of others with this combination. I can deal with it, while at speed, but it’s just barely tolerable. Thoughts?
Click to expand...
Dropping the forks is going in the wrong direction. It’s increasing the front to rear geometry imbalance.

ETA... let's make sure we are on the same page... when you say "dropping the forks" are you saying you had already dropped the front end down on the forks so they stick up out of the top triple tree more than stock, and now you're lifting the bike back up , removing the chassis drop? Or are you talking about dropping the front end down SO the the chassis drops down by sliding the forks up?
 
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I’ve been running Dunlop Roadsmart III for about 2 years now with my MS 17” and C-14 shock.Gone through front end and do not feel any wobble or buffeting from passing semis.
 
cragantler said:
I’ve been running Dunlop Roadsmart III for about 2 years now with my MS 17” and C-14 shock.Gone through front end and do not feel any wobble or buffeting from passing semis.
Click to expand...
Is the 17" Rear Tire you used a smaller diameter than the stock 16" tire?
Do you also have a 17" on the front?

Ride safe, Ted
 
connie_rider said:
On the C-10's there has been some concerns with the radials.
(Wobble at speeds or when near a vehicle).
Some think the current Rear Radials may have too weak of sidewall.
One of the main Radials that come up with the issue was the Avons. ("I think")
Look thru the Forum and you should be able to find notes about the tire problem.

NOTE: Several replaced the rear radials with Belted tires and the issue went away.

In some cases, I know that some have installed huge windshields and that contributed to the problem.

Ride safe, Ted
Click to expand...
Thanks Ted.
 
Steve in sunny Fla said:
Dropping the forks is going in the wrong direction. It’s increasing the front to rear geometry imbalance.

ETA... let's make sure we are on the same page... when you say "dropping the forks" are you saying you had already dropped the front end down on the forks so they stick up out of the top triple tree more than stock, and now you're lifting the bike back up , removing the chassis drop? Or are you talking about dropping the front end down SO the the chassis drops down by sliding the forks up?
Click to expand...
How so?
 
Steve in sunny Fla said:
can you answer the question in the ETA?
Click to expand...
I dropped the forks. That is common vernacular, within the road racing circles that I used to frequent, as both a rider and tuner, for adjusting the fork tubes down in the triple trees, thus raising the front end of the bike, to compensate changes in rear suspension ride height, or axle height.
 
jim snyder said:
I concur with Ted. Many radial sportbike radials are not designed for the weight of a C-10. I experienced the same issue the 1st time I installed Avon 46's on mine. It felt like I was riding on sand. Many of those tires had separation issues in the belts. As I have posted many times I had really good luck with the Avon AM-26's (bias ply tires) on my C-10 before I did the 17" conversion. The AM-26'S handle extremely well. If you know anyone who ever followed me thru the twisties they can attest to the handling of those tires on my bike. Unlike many bias ply tires they do not have the heavy feel that many complain about on other bias tires.
Click to expand...
Well I certainly feel the nervous feeling in my Connie, it was even more pronounced last summer, on freshly laid asphalt on local highways, which indicated to me that the increased grip was resulting in more sidewall or tread block flex, thus the riding on ice or sand feeling. On worn asphalt, the amount of slippage in the tread to asphalt contact patch was greater, thus masking any tread block or sidewall flex. Sure I can ride here fine, but there comes a point where, your ability to sense actual loss of traction while cornering etc…is being masked by the ongoing flex issues and when the two come together, you may be in for a tumble. I am very picky or sensitive to what the bike is doing from my road racing days, it can be a blessing and a curse.
 
mbsevans2722 said:
I dropped the forks. That is common vernacular, within the road racing circles that I used to frequent, as both a rider and tuner, for adjusting the fork tubes down in the triple trees, thus raising the front end of the bike, to compensate changes in rear suspension ride height, or axle height.
Click to expand...
Then the previous owner had raised the forks. Stock bikes don’t have any fork tube available to lower.
 
jim snyder said:
I concur with Ted. Many radial sportbike radials are not designed for the weight of a C-10. I experienced the same issue the 1st time I installed Avon 46's on mine. It felt like I was riding on sand. Many of those tires had separation issues in the belts. As I have posted many times I had really good luck with the Avon AM-26's (bias ply tires) on my C-10 before I did the 17" conversion. The AM-26'S handle extremely well. If you know anyone who ever followed me thru the twisties they can attest to the handling of those tires on my bike. Unlike many bias ply tires they do not have the heavy feel that many complain about on other bias tires.
Click to expand...
I remember the 2014 national when Mike Dionne burned his rear tire up following you!
 
(Crag) So, on your bike; Maybe the rear is now OEM height (or maybe 1/2" higher than OEM) because of the combination you have. (smaller dia. tire, and the longer C-14 shock)

Ride safe, Ted
 
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I think what you're saying is correct.
You dropped/lowered the forks in the triple trees to raise the front of the bike.
Because of your taller rear shock, that should make it closer to OEM Geometry .
Should be more stable.

Dropping them below the upper surface of the triple tree seems a bit too much but ok for a test.
Sounds like you didn't get any improvement. (??)

Wish I were near you. You could ride my C-10 to see how it feels compared to yours.

Where are you? Is anyone near you?

Ride safe, Ted

Had another thought; Have you checked the front wheel bearings and the front fork bushings?
Any slack in either??
 
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connie_rider said:
I think what you're saying is correct.
You dropped/lowered the forks in the triple trees to raise the front of the bike.
Because of your taller rear shock, that should make it closer to OEM Geometry .
Should be more stable.

Dropping them below the upper surface of the triple tree seems a bit too much but ok for a test.
Sounds like you didn't get any improvement. (??)

Wish I were near you. You could ride my C-10 to see how it feels compared to yours.

Where are you? Is anyone near you?

Ride safe, Ted

Had another thought; Have you checked the front wheel bearings and the front fork bushings?
Any slack in either??
Click to expand...
Hey Ted, thanks for the reply, I am in Southwestern Ontario near Kincardine. I do know that a Rob Armstrong at the Two Wheel Motorsports is an avid Concours owner and rider and I did mention to him last year, that I might stop by the dealership one day and let him ride it. However, I have not done so yet and I am not well equipped with any friends in this area, but youre right that is exactly what I need, is a couple of competent riders to take her out and get another opinion. I just came back from an hour ride, which is the first time I have rode her in a month. Yeah, that is how much this bothers me, I really dont get too enthused about going out due to this funny quirky feeling. And yes…it was that way today as well. I did loosen off the head bearings before todays ride and it did help the wandering. But the odd feeling is still there. I dont know if it’s actually anything wrong, or simply the way the bike feels with a big fairing. The best way to describe the feeling, is while riding straight down the road, the bike will easily roll side to side, but this rapid rolling along the longitudinal axis results in a yaw movement about the vertical axis which my ass interprets as the rear tire stepping out slightly. I suppose if I rode it long enough, I would get used to it, but when it comes to riding on questionable surfaces, or in the rain…well how do you interpret a real loss of traction from this quirk?? If I ride her over a seam in the road, and I mean a seam of two layers of asphalt with the seam running in your direction of travel, you get a very odd feeling as the tires roll up and over or down off this seam. Fork bushings, wheel bearings, head bearings all brand new when I completely rebuilt her last year.
 
What about the swing arm bearings. My GT750 had sloppy bushings in the swing arm. Now that feels like the rear tire is stepping out. Makes for an exciting ride as I recall, when I rode it home from Bloomington.
 
Bud said:
What about the swing arm bearings. My GT750 had sloppy bushings in the swing arm. Now that feels like the rear tire is stepping out. Makes for an exciting ride as I recall, when I rode it home from Bloomington.
Click to expand...
Well I disassembled them when I took entire bike apart last year, I followed the shop manual procedure for torquing the 3 bolt layout they use for the pivot assembly. Everything was cleaned checked for wear and reinstalled. I have grabbed the rear end and tried to detect any play and could not feel any. But this next thing I have never got an answer for it. The shock linkage…so, in my way of thinking, the shock linkage should NOT be a factor in the lateral movement of anything attached to the swingam, in terms of the swingarm and wheel etc. in other words, its my assumption that any lateral play in the dog bone and associated linkage should NOT be a factor in any lateral play in the swingarm…right??? I ask this because when reassembling the rear end the linkage had side to side play in the joints, due to wear of the recess that the linkage bolts fit into. Knowing this I sourced some stainless steel washers of the appropriate thickness, to fit on the linkage bolts, in an effort to take up the sloppiness of the links. However, I did NOT install them. Because once all the linkage and shock and swingarm was mounted up and torqued, I could not get the linkage to move around.
 
mbsevans2722 said:
Hey Ted, thanks for the reply, I am in Southwestern Ontario near Kincardine. I do know that a Rob Armstrong at the Two Wheel Motorsports is an avid Concours owner and rider and I did mention to him last year, that I might stop by the dealership one day and let him ride it. However, I have not done so yet and I am not well equipped with any friends in this area, but youre right that is exactly what I need, is a couple of competent riders to take her out and get another opinion. I just came back from an hour ride, which is the first time I have rode her in a month. Yeah, that is how much this bothers me, I really dont get too enthused about going out due to this funny quirky feeling. And yes…it was that way today as well. I did loosen off the head bearings before todays ride and it did help the wandering. But the odd feeling is still there. I dont know if it’s actually anything wrong, or simply the way the bike feels with a big fairing. The best way to describe the feeling, is while riding straight down the road, the bike will easily roll side to side, but this rapid rolling along the longitudinal axis results in a yaw movement about the vertical axis which my ass interprets as the rear tire stepping out slightly. I suppose if I rode it long enough, I would get used to it, but when it comes to riding on questionable surfaces, or in the rain…well how do you interpret a real loss of traction from this quirk?? If I ride her over a seam in the road, and I mean a seam of two layers of asphalt with the seam running in your direction of travel, you get a very odd feeling as the tires roll up and over or down off this seam. Fork bushings, wheel bearings, head bearings all brand new when I completely rebuilt her last year.
Click to expand...
I had the same impressions, it was solved by the change in front tire pressures
 
another thing, if the fork was recently disassembled without aligning it, it can also have an influence
1694929423-fenders-pour-kawasaki-concours-1999-kawasaki.jpg
 
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mbsevans2722 said:
Oh yes, that piece is inside the fender. I consider that a fender brace, not a fork brace.
Click to expand...
It's actually a factory fork brace , a kind of flimsy one but that's what Kawi calls it . I have Avons on my bike (3rd set) and love them but there are many reports of folks having similar issues as you with the Avon radials . I have found them to be real sensitive to pressure though . 40 front 42 rear works best for me .
 
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