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Brake conversion food for thought

Just to address the elephant in the room, the base of the mounts in question (bolt bosses) are 8mm or 5/16 thick. The quality of the aluminum is probably the only concern. I appears to be of high tensile strength and is well executed in design. This obviously is not the manufactures first rodeo as he is offering some pretty sophisticated set ups for other bikes.

    I firmly believe that a large part of the improvement I feel during initial riding is better alignment of parts and the fact that everything went together like a well designed part should. No "shimming" or grinding or tweaking necessary, outside of the need to compensate for my increased rotor diameter. That goes a long way to boosting my confidence in the product.

    SISF once said they called him the lawnmower man because of his thinking outside the box. Not everyone thought the C10 needed any improvement in handling, but thank the good lord someone did and went to the trouble of fitting 17" wheels. Nobody influenced me to try this other than my own curiosity, nobody is saying this is the new black. I like it. It works well. And it appears to work better than my home made concoction. It is certainly more uniform. I think I will continue to enjoy it, I will certainly report any faults I may find with it and any constructive criticism is certainly welcome. Again, that is how we all learn, by sharing our findings through this forum.
 
Thank God (and Greyhound) Jim had those heavy handlers messing with his steering or he mighta gone fast enough to just burst into flames... and I think his gear is NOT that flame retardant.  Just sayin'... 



:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
 
Theres no tellin Rev. If I had taken the brakes off I probably could have gone a gazillion miles per hour. But after riding that H-2 dragbike for so many years I sorta got to likin brakes. Goin 140 in the 1/4 ain't no fun if you can't stop before the dirt embankment.
 
Ok guys and gals, I'm sort of a glass half full guy so I am glad we were able to find another alternative for C-10 brake upgrades. Lets not spoil this with a lot of theories as to why it won't work. The zxmopar brackets aren't available anymore so now we have another avenue to get there. Nearly every bolt on my Connie has stretch marks on it from experimenting with alternative ways to improve the old gal. The C-10 is one of the most adaptable platforms I have ever worked with. Its like I always say the worst thing you can ever tell me is "they don't make one of those for your bike".
 
I've tried the zx 14 master cylinder. There IS a difference, but I only had it on for maybe two weeks. I just didn't like the looks of it at all and wound up splashing brake fluid on ANOTHER windshield.  :-[. And it wasn't better enough in my mind to put up with.  I have a zzr1200 master on it since then, but it is probably the same e as the stock ZG unit. I haven't checked the fiche to know. It looks the same.


Jim: we may have to get you some of them red flannel longhandles wit the button flap on the back. Ya know thems all that Red Adair feller used to wear fightin' them ol' well fires.  Iffin it gots too hot, he'd just open the flap and back outta there. Best kinda safety equipment ya can has I reckons.

BTW, I'm a "here, that'll fit my margarita glass" kind of guy.  :))
 
Nice set up.  It opens up new options!

I do not think, with the c10, that the actual braking force is an issue with either upgrade.  They both probably exceed what the bike can use.  She's a heavy bike, weight high up, really can't run sport bike tires, (weight of the bike leaves that out for safety reasons), stock forks flex, non perimeter frame...etc, etc....so we do this a lot of times "just because".

Cool mod, well done! :great:

I am glad to hear your feedback on the radial MC Rev, I was looking at getting an R1 MC and using it on the Connie to see if feel would be better. (One of the cheap Brembo versions!)
 
Funny how looks determine how happy a person is with anything. I love the way my Madstad windscreen functions, but IMO it hampers the classic lines of the bike. That doesn't  mean I won't use it for long trips where it would probably ease fatigue. For local riding I prefer my Givi for aesthetic vanity. That said.

ANY PICS of the radial master cylinder set up Rev?

I have most of one from the donor CBR but I am reluctant to use it, that big ugly reservoir would probably be an eyesore.
 
Ok, ok,, ya'll convinvced me.
I was probably over thinking.

The biggest thing that convinces me is this..

I firmly believe that a large part of the improvement I feel during initial riding is "better alignment of parts" and the fact that everything went together like a well designed part should. No "shimming" or grinding or tweaking necessary, outside of the need to compensate for my increased rotor diameter. That goes a long way to boosting my confidence in the product.

If it's easy to do,, more can take advantage of it.......

But I have to disagree with Jim.

He said his ride at the National proves that the Radial Calipers don't hurt handling.
His rebuttal is Not a good point....    "Because"

That guy goes!!!  He could have led (and left the others) if he was on a "Moped".   ;)

Last question;
Jim/Airmonger,,, you 2 are the only ones that have rode with 4 pot calipers AND with both types of Calipers.

Are the Radial Calipers waaaaay better than the Axial?


Ride safe, Ted
 
Ted, I don't think they are "way" better. They are really good, and they certainly allow for a alternate choice since someone probably would be within 25-50 dollars of a axial upgrade. I will own up to a major misalignment when I made my "own" caliper brackets. The pictures should explain everything. Ouch, because I measured, checked, measured and checked some more. And I still missed something. I am positive that my new setup feels better because it is right. I am still running the stock master cylinder so I am probably not getting the full benefit of the radial caliper. Honestly, I don't know how much more would be beneficial, I can make the front PR3 howl with little or no effort. Not overly sensitive, just kind of feels like having my brain wired to the caliper.

First picture is right rotor, you can see the bedding pattern is placed exactly in the center of the rotor. This pattern is the same inboard as well.

Second picture, left rotor and my finger points to the narrow out board pattern, the new wear is to the inside of the rotor and can be seen in the darker area ( hence my axial caliper alignment issue? ) the inboard surface is patterned exactly the same as the right rotor. Only the outboard surface of the left is affected. If you look at the 12 o'clock position the light reflection accurately portrays the new wear pattern. I will pull the caliper down and inspect the outboard pistons for any abnormality.

Having had the 2fast setup on my 90 model sold me on the use of four pots for the 06.

My first upgraded brake set up on the 06 was with stock rotors four pots and it was very good as well.

The second set up was with larger diameter (320mm) rotors and evidently this is were I created my own problems, although the pads wore in to maintain full contact to the rotors. I would have to reassemble the entire axial set up to reassess the misalignment and I am not in a position or the mood to do that right now. Even with the misalignment they stopped very well.

My belief now, having ridden all three set ups is that the radial caliper upgrade would be the most foolproof and least technically challenging resulting in positive dramatic improvement over stock. Much closer to plug and play if you will. That's a mouthful. Hope that helps.
 

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I will also say that the feel is not way better but that is due to the old school master cylinder. After I test drove that Ninja 600 at the national I can tell you that the newer radial master cylinders put out way more brake pressure. I was looking on ebay and found some ZX10 master cylinders since I am using ZX10 radial calipers. But damn they want $150+ for the master cylinder. May have to swallow hard and just pay the piper but you know what they say, you gotta pay to play baby.
 
AirMonger said:
Funny how looks determine how happy a person is with anything. I love the way my Madstad windscreen functions, but IMO it hampers the classic lines of the bike. That doesn't  mean I won't use it for long trips where it would probably ease fatigue. For local riding I prefer my Givi for aesthetic vanity. That said.

ANY PICS of the radial master cylinder set up Rev?

I have most of one from the donor CBR but I am reluctant to use it, that big ugly reservoir would probably be an eyesore.
Click to expand...
Looking for a pic.  Seems like I should have one/some, but so far no luck.  The ZX14 reservoir is ugly IMHO.  I have it on a shelf somewhere in the shop right now.  It also required a freak lever since my clutch MC was still stock.  But not THAT noticeable... like the white tankard on top.
 
I looked at a lot of the new master cylinders on ebay and all of them seem to be like what Rev described. The reservoirs are separate on all of them. Not the best looking setup for sure. Like Rev said UGLY!!!
 
There are some universal M/c available on eBay for a reasonable price johnechen is the seller. I have seen others. I have the OEM Honda one but I do not have a reservoir for it. Not hard to come by but it would not allow me to have matching levers on the controls.
 

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I was looking at ZX14 MC, made by Nissin.  I saw a common problem with those of leaking issues. Not sure if it was certain years or not, or if it was solved. Not sure if it was used on other models that may have the same issues.  Just thought if someone is looking at one of those, it may be worth checking on.  One reason I decided on the R1 MC. But then, I wanted a matching one for the clutch side.....
 
Progress report. 300 miles on the upgrade. Sweet and painless this upgrade. I installed the radial master cylinder and associated parts, no issue other than it took an enormous amount of time to bleed the brakes and iron every thing out. Way too touchy now, I really think I prefer some delay or the ability to "ease" into the brakes on this old girl. If I were doing track time, it would be a great advantage or improvement. For the street? Just a wee bit more than I need. It is still worth the investment, I will not make any statement that would put this improvement at over the top. It is just simply works really, really good.
 
Here we go.........some more.......I removed my Chinese rotors to clean, and detail them. I had a mild pulsation from them and was convinced that pad material build up was the culprit. This is not the case apparently, I now have an issue with intense pulsating through the brake lever. I can only imagine that while installing tires in the past I some how managed to ding a rotor or tweak a carrier. Either way, by not marking the original location of the rotor I have aggravated the situation. Trussed the wheel up on the truing stand to check run out on the rotors and cannot for the life of me get a bad reading on my dial indicator of more the .0003. I attribute this to the flimsy build of the truing stand. Hanging the OEM Z7RS rotors on it tomorrow to see where I am. No love for the Chinese rotors anymore. 
 
Rotor pulse solved. I don't know if it was just a long day yesterday or what. During the rotor re-vamp yesterday I noticed that the brake pads were riding very close to the outer edge of the brake rotor. I changed my spacer set up with one that was 3mm thinner to move the caliper in toward the center of the axle. In doing so I placed the pads on previously unused rotor surface. I assume it cocked the pads ever so slightly causing the pulsing sensation if was experiencing. Removing and sanding the pads eliminated 95% of the pulse I was feeling. Two more days of warm weather before the next front, I will use the bike every chance I get to see if bedding the pads eliminates the remainder of the feed back at the lever. Fortunately these were inexpensive pads (Caltric) so I may just go ahead and replace these with EBC now that everything is where it needs to be.
 
Any chance of someone having the dimensions of the spacers that 'should' come with the radial brackets? I can machine them, even though that was not the original plan.

I ordered mine, but did not get spacers. If you order these, DO NOT let him know what you are putting them on, it will all go south from there. I know, I know...I put the order in with ALL the info required to finalize the order. Then I get an email asking what bike I ride. Was phrased like any other rider would ask, not what caliper, blah blah blah. Then the questions start into the particulars of the setup I'm putting together. Finally told him it was for a Verys650...ya know, the original data for the order.

So, no spacers cuz I guess he thinks I'm running stock rotors. Not happy, but sharing to the fateful who may order these and 'chat' with the man far away.

Oh, any more feedback from further road work?

Randy
 
HM, I just measured the supplied spacer and it is 13mm. I had to utilize an additional spacer that measures out at 9.3mm to centralize the pad on the rotor surface. This with 320MM rotors.

I am still feeling some pulsing from the front end under hard braking. But it feels like an elliptical motion rather than a pulse. Hard to describe. I think I will run the pads in a bit harder and see if it changes anything. If not then back to the Z7R rotors for now.
 
Airmonger, can you place a dial indicator on the rotor to see if it is warped?
It sounds like you feel the pulsing is coming from something else, but the indicator would eliminate a warped rotor possibility.
You might also be able to measure the rotor for concentricity. Possibly it is not perfectly centered on the hub?

Ride safe, Ted




 
Hi ya Ted. Yep, run out is at about .004 . I still think that it is because these rotors have had three different caliper mounts run on them. First the axial for pot calipers which were found to be a little off on my fabricated brackets. This caused some uneven wear on the pads. Corrected the bracket issue and installed new pads. Now a little bit of pulse. Second issue was when I installed the radial caliper and ran them for about 500 miles and decided I did not like the proximity of the pad wear being too close to the outside edge of the rotor. Made a change in shimming of the caliper to move it closer to the center of the wheel. Now this is when it started feeling more eccentric in motion and less pulse to the M/C at the bars. I went out this morning and brought it down from 90mph HARD a couple of times. It feels slightly better than before. Allow me to mention I have fresh sintered pads in place now and was bedding them so I haven't dropped the hammer on them prior to today. Maybe I just really need to develop a permanent pattern on the rotors? I will stay on them for a while to see what develops.
 
I started to put my new adapters on today and the shims are no where thick enough. I will need to go atleast twice the thickness of the shims they sent me and longer bolts to. Oh well another trip to the hardware store.
 
Ok got the new radial caliper brackets mounted today. The spacers they sent me were no where close to being big enough.
I told them I was running 320 rotors but the the spacers were not right. Plus the longer bolts they sent were not long enough
either. Two trips to two different hardware stores solved the problem. I got some longer 10mm X 1.50 thread bolts and some
3/8" X 3/4" X 3/4" steel/zinc bushings that were just right. Now the only issue is the speedo cable.
Air,
What was your solution to getting the speedo cable back on and not be in a bind?
 

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Jim, as far as the speedo cable is concerned all I did was rotate the drive catch stub that rests between the catch nubs clockwise on the forks. This brings the nub behind the two points on the forks. I know I will eventually need to get a longer cable. So far no issues. I mentioned this in my earlier posts. Once the axle nut and pinch bolts are tightened, speedo cable can't rotate anyway. Give it a try and you will see it is not in a any kind of bind.
 
I know this is a really old discussion, but trying to help someone find out where to buy the radial type adapters.
I read thru the discussion and don't see that information?

Can someone please tell him where/what to purchase?

Ride safe, Ted
 
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