Chip Seal gravel at intersections

[MizzouMike]

I am looking for some input from fellow motorcycle riders.  I have been asked to weigh in on the validity of an insurance claim for damage from a rider who crashed his bike on fresh chip seal.  The rider indicated that he lost control of his Honda Shadow 750 while executing a turn from a stop at a recently chip-sealed roadway.  There is some loose gravel where the new chips had not adhered.  The roads are swept with a power broom prior to the application of paint stripes, so this was in that interim period.  There were orange signs indicating 'road work ahead' as well as 'fresh oil and no-center line' 

My first thought was this guy is a bad rider, and I was going to tell him to 'go pound sand.' 

I have to deal with 'the road caused my problems' all of the time, so I am callous to most claims. 

Any thoughts from the masses?

 

[SilverConnieRider]

My thought is that a corner is one of the more critical area for all vehicles especially motorcycles.
If traffic was allowed to ride on the roadway and it had not been properly cleaned up then the road crew was at fault.
You stated it was cleaned before the stones were applied - but not after.

Loose stones along the edge of a road on a straight section are not usually a problem.  In curves or corner that is a different story
again more important to a motorcyclist then car drivers.

I personally would like to see signage that told motorcyclists that new tar and stones were ahead and suggest an alternate route before they get
to a point that they have to go through it.  If someone chooses to go through it they have been warned but others (like me) would rather detour around
newly tared and stoned roads if at all possible.

 

[works4me]

Tar and chip seal is widely used in PA.

Typical response on an incident report would state:
"Traveling too fast for conditions".

Around here you either learn how to deal
or you don't ride.

 

[Ranger Jim]

You stated the rider was "executing a turn from a stop ... ."  That (to me anyway) indicates he was pulling out and accelerating away. The only way I can see he would lose control is if his rear wheel spun on the gravel (due to excessive application of throttle) or something caused his front wheel to skid (e.g. he crashed at the stop sign due to too much front brake applied to rapidly). Either way, I'm inclined to say the claim is bogus.

 

[Sport rider]

the front tire could have washed out midway through the turn as well.  I had a problem in WV with a similar situation where I was trying to make a quick brake and had not expected the small stones, which had piled up in particular paths due to automotive traffic "moving" the stones as a normal course of their driving.  I could see where this might be a plausable excuse.

 

[zarticus]

Tar and chip seal should be outlawed !. They use it in N.C & I've had a few close calls on it. The problem is that it is very hard to see the loose stuff sometimes because it blends in so well. I would not rush to decline his claim, Check out the road in person if you can :beerchug:

 

[MizzouMike]

Thanks for the input. 

From what I gathered via a phone call, it sounds like this guy was executing a turn from the turn lane onto the minor road from a stop.  There is some loose rock in the intersection, but it is hard to tell how bad it is by walking around.  I think I have just created a need to charge up the GoPro and take the connie on an 'official business' trip tomorrow.  I wish I had thought of that earlier, but I doubt I would have made it back to the office.  I would take the KLR, but that would be cheating, and I am not going to ride my shiny HD on all of those loose rocks!

I am interested to see how the intersection 'feels' when on the bike, you can't get a good sence of what the rider did in a car.

Tar and chip seal is widely used in PA.
Typical response on an incident report would state:
"Traveling too fast for conditions".
Around here you either learn how to deal
or you don't ride.

Same here, in that this is 'normal' conditions for this time of year especially on rurual roadways.  That is my normal response, 'quit blaming the road for your lack of skill' or '$30k for a bike ridden 300 miles a year does not make you a biker, it makes you a douche'  However, I will try and overlook my preconceived notions, and reserve judgement until I ride the intersection. 

Tar and chip seal should be outlawed !. They use it in N.C & I've had a few close calls on it. The problem is that it is very hard to see the loose stuff sometimes because it blends in so well. I would not rush to decline his claim, Check out the road in person if you can :beerchug:

 
I wish they had the $$$ to provide fresh asphalt overlay, however this is the only solution that is within the budget

 

[4bikes]

I have been asked to weigh in on the validity of an insurance claim for damage from a rider who crashed his bike on fresh chip seal. 

I have to deal with 'the road caused my problems' all of the time, so I am callous to most claims. 

Can I ask who is asking you weigh in?  Is it the insurance company, contractor, township?  Are they asking you because it's part of your job, or because someone knows you ride?  Just curious.

And, I think putting loose stones and oil on roads, especially spot repairs is a really bad idea. As noted, it's commonplace in PA.

 

[landman]

chip sealed roads are also very common here in Wyoming and they can be quite unsafe for motorcycles for several weeks after application.loose gravel in corners and intersections is common even after the job has been completed.it is a piss poor way to
maintain a road in my opinion.it also causes excessive wear on motorcycle tires

 

[MizzouMike]

I have been asked to weigh in because it is my job.  The rider is making a claim for damage, and now I have to determine if there is any validity to the claim. 

This happens a dozen or so time a year, and I have become jaded with the complete lack of personal responsibility that has become much more prevalent recently.  I blame lawyers!  Like I said, it seems that they have become experts of convincing others that it is now the roads fault you crashed...  not because 1/2 your tires left the road when you were sending a selfie to your peeps, because you decided that the speed limit is a recommendation for others, or that nothing is wrong with those bald tires in the rain. 

I will say that I am spending more effort this time because it is a motorcyclist, and I understand his frustration. 

I have been asked to weigh in on the validity of an insurance claim for damage from a rider who crashed his bike on fresh chip seal. 

I have to deal with 'the road caused my problems' all of the time, so I am callous to most claims. 

Can I ask who is asking you weigh in?  Is it the insurance company, contractor, township?  Are they asking you because it's part of your job, or because someone knows you ride?  Just curious.

I agree that chip-seal is a poor man's asphalt.  However it you can seal five miles of road for what it costs to do an asphalt overlay, it is more cost effective especially in a rural setting.  It is a matter of cost, plain and simple.  It is the cheapest way to preserve the paved roads.  Yes, it is hard on tires, especially softer compound m/c tires.  I don't like to ride on chip-seal.

And, I think putting loose stones and oil on roads, especially spot repairs is a really bad idea. As noted, it's commonplace in PA.

 

[zarticus]

Thanks for the input. 

From what I gathered via a phone call, it sounds like this guy was executing a turn from the turn lane onto the minor road from a stop.  There is some loose rock in the intersection, but it is hard to tell how bad it is by walking around.  I think I have just created a need to charge up the GoPro and take the connie on an 'official business' trip tomorrow.  I wish I had thought of that earlier, but I doubt I would have made it back to the office.  I would take the KLR, but that would be cheating, and I am not going to ride my shiny HD on all of those loose rocks!


I am interested to see how the intersection 'feels' when on the bike, you can't get a good sence of what the rider did in a car.

Tar and chip seal is widely used in PA.
Typical response on an incident report would state:
"Traveling too fast for conditions".
Around here you either learn how to deal
or you don't ride.

Same here, in that this is 'normal' conditions for this time of year especially on rurual roadways.  That is my normal response, 'quit blaming the road for your lack of skill' or '$30k for a bike ridden 300 miles a year does not make you a biker, it makes you a douche'  However, I will try and overlook my preconceived notions, and reserve judgement until I ride the intersection. 

Tar and chip seal should be outlawed !. They use it in N.C & I've had a few close calls on it. The problem is that it is very hard to see the loose stuff sometimes because it blends in so well. I would not rush to decline his claim, Check out the road in person if you can :beerchug:

 
I wish they had the $$$ to provide fresh asphalt overlay, however this is the only solution that is within the budget

There is your answer then !!, If there is enough loose rocks to make you not ride your HD then there is a legitimate road danger problem, It does sound like you have become jaded & hopefully you will not let that weigh in on your decision.  :beerchug:

 

[MizzouMike]

Thanks  Zarticus, that is a very valid point...  I am not afraid of the road being 'dangerous'  I just don't want the rocks to chip the paint and chrome....  I wasn't worried about dropping the bike, but then I will be much more cautions.... 

 

[4bikes]

Mike, I'm still not sure about your answer. Is your job working for an insurance company?  The insurance company is asking you to weigh in? 

 

[MizzouMike]

No I work for the county road department.  If I feel that there is some validity to the claim then someone else decides if we should turn it into the insurance company.  Sometimes claims are paid without the insurance company, and sometimes we turn them in and then the insurance company denies them.  We try not to nickle & dime the insurance company.  The bean counters refer this as our 'loss usage ratio'  I was trying not to disclose that I am a bureaucrat, a cog in the man's machine  :truce:

Mike, I'm still not sure about your answer. Is your job working for an insurance company?  The insurance company is asking you to weigh in?

 

[ChipDoc]

I've got a friend who dropped his ST1300 on pea gravel in northwest South Carolina.  No warning signs at all; the crew just left after repairing a pothole without sweeping up after themselves.  Steve had significant (though now healed) injuries and the bike was totaled.  Six different riders went down in that same place that day, though he didn't see any of them at the time.  Steve is currently involved in a lawsuit against the county, but it's been over a year at this point.

Bottom line - be careful out there!

 

[Dan4aspen]

Mike, I live near PA and WV.  Alot of times those road crews do not put those signs out about loose gravel, or fresh chip and tar until it is too late.  There signs should be put at least 1 mile ahead to give motorcyclists plenty of advanced warning so they can choose an alternate route.  And what that road looks like today is complety different than it did the day he wrecked.  As far as his skill level, that is for nobody to judge.  If he has a license, that is all that is required.  If he was turning onto a smaller less used road, I could see the build up of gravel on secondary corner, as not used as much as main road.  Plain and simple tar and gravel is dangerous for any vehicle, especially a motorcycle.  Counties and states cut corners to save a few dollars, subsequently putting the public at risk.  Personally, I think that stuff should be banned. 

 

[Undertaker]

Mike, I live near PA and WV.  Personally, I think that stuff should be banned.

Living in the same general area, I totally agree with you. In hot weather that stuff is like hitting an oil slick.

 

[4bikes]

Mike,
Thanks for sharing your job.  I can understand your position on not wanting to reveal that  

Road departments putting Oil and then loose Stones on the roads, especially sharp turns, steep hills and intersections is just a bad idea.  I would expect their position to be nothing less than, you need to learn to drive or ride better, that's not our fault, tough that you crashed.  Those tar and chip jobs are a huge problem for bicyclists as well, since the loose stones accumulate on the side of the roads.  As I mentioned, the spot repairs with no warnings have to be the worst for motorcycles traveling at any speed.

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the incident you mentioned as bad riding. 

 

[freebird6]

Chip/seal and tar snakes are making many roads flat out dangerous. When I was racing triathlons roads maintained with chip;/seal were impassable on less than inch wide tires rolling around at 25 or so mph. Now on the bikes they are worse with the patches of loose stone rolling around and, in our area, the depth of loose stone they put on top the tar base. They chip/sealed IN 103 a year ago and I still find it undriveable. When I talked to our county and state officials they both said it is what the higher ups tell them to use. I suspect the savings is paying for our county commissioners new real estate and homes.

Tar snakes are really , really dangerous. I slide on them in rain, I slide on them on hot pavement. They are just hazardous.

 

[MizzouMike]

Update:

I rode out to the site 'on the Harley Davidson' no less.  Yes, some chips were heard banging off the chrome and such.  When I arrived, I noticed that they had applied part of the paint striping, so the intersection had been swept recently.  It was not difficult to turn / stop / ride through at all in this state.  However, I did catch up with the crew, and they indicated that they quite a bit of loose material that was picked up.  I will see what the rider comes up with, and requests as far as damage, but there is most likey some validity.  It is definitly a judgement call.  Chip seal is definitely the 'poor mans' road. 

Freebird6, yes crack-seal / tar snakes are not fun.  I have slid on them many times, I can only imagine how bad they would suck on a bicycle.  Our county typically doesn't crack seal unless the road is either full asphalt, or due for a another chip-seal coat.  However in the city, that seems to be much more prevalent.

 

[daves00]

  Here in Northern Illinois chip seal what is used for most of the secondary roads.  In most cases LARGE cracks are tar snaked then fresh oil/tar is applied to the whole road surface. Pea gravel is applied, most cases up to two inches and a sign is posted, fresh gravel, fresh oil. After a couple of weeks with traffic, the two car tracks are down to road surface and the rest of the road will have pea gravel until, until, well, until the cows come home. That's it, doesn't get any better than that.. If you stay in one lane or the other your in good shape, if you get out of the lane, well your SOL.  ??? Illinois, which is BROKE (in more ways than one) has no resources for new infrastructure work. I guess the phrase, it is what it is sums it up. I still can't believe we are ranked ONLY fourth in state corruption. If you can't be the best at something good then be the best at something bad.  >

Dave N.
COG 4475
03 Connie
Rockford Ill.

 

[MizzouMike]

When you have a governor's suite in the Illinois state penitentiary, you might have a problem.  Here in Kansas, our Governor is too stupid to be corrupt,  he makes dumb decisions for free, that way he can't be bought.

I still can't believe we are ranked ONLY fourth in state corruption. If you can't be the best at something good then be the best at something bad. 

 

[Thud300]

Wait, we're only fourth??? 

I think we have three governors making our license plates  :rotflmao:

 

[BS mechanic]

I say the riders fall was his own fault, and no one owes him a dime.

Just my opinion, but my thought is that the RIDER is always responsible for judging the road surface for traction and obstacles:  Dirt, oil, chunks of concrete, dead animals, live animals, small children, gravel, sand.... the list goes on and on. 

About the only thing I'd say would allow a rider to blame road crews for would be a missing manhole cover or a missing construction barrier. 

Every situation is obviously different, but you can't expect someone else to be responsible for providing you a perfect road surface, That's an unreasonable expectation that's just never going to happen.  If you expect that, expect to fall down a lot!

 

[zarticus]

I say the riders fall was his own fault, and no one owes him a dime.

Just my opinion, but my thought is that the RIDER is always responsible for judging the road surface for traction and obstacles:  Dirt, oil, chunks of concrete, dead animals, live animals, small children, gravel, sand.... the list goes on and on. 

About the only thing I'd say would allow a rider to blame road crews for would be a missing manhole cover or a missing construction barrier. 

Every situation is obviously different, but you can't expect someone else to be responsible for providing you a perfect road surface, That's an unreasonable expectation that's just never going to happen.  If you expect that, expect to fall down a lot!

The road crew has a responsibility to leave the road in a safe condition after finishing work.

 

[works4me]

I say the riders fall was his own fault, and no one owes him a dime.

Just my opinion, but my thought is that the RIDER is always responsible for judging the road surface for traction and obstacles:  Dirt, oil, chunks of concrete, dead animals, live animals, small children, gravel, sand.... the list goes on and on. 

About the only thing I'd say would allow a rider to blame road crews for would be a missing manhole cover or a missing construction barrier. 

Every situation is obviously different, but you can't expect someone else to be responsible for providing you a perfect road surface, That's an unreasonable expectation that's just never going to happen.  If you expect that, expect to fall down a lot!

The road crew has a responsibility to leave the road in a safe condition after finishing work.

But they weren't finished.

 

[zarticus]

I say the riders fall was his own fault, and no one owes him a dime.

Just my opinion, but my thought is that the RIDER is always responsible for judging the road surface for traction and obstacles:  Dirt, oil, chunks of concrete, dead animals, live animals, small children, gravel, sand.... the list goes on and on. 

About the only thing I'd say would allow a rider to blame road crews for would be a missing manhole cover or a missing construction barrier. 

Every situation is obviously different, but you can't expect someone else to be responsible for providing you a perfect road surface, That's an unreasonable expectation that's just never going to happen.  If you expect that, expect to fall down a lot!

The road crew has a responsibility to leave the road in a safe condition after finishing work.

But they weren't finished.

Okay, Road was not finished, Signs were posted, Counties butt is covered, Get it over with & tell him to go pound sand because that is how it was going to end up anyway  :truce:        PC

 

[MizzouMike]

Thanks again for the replies.  I turned over my report to the claims guy, and so I am sure he will work it out with the insurance company.  I may get an update, or I may not depending on the direction they choose to go. 

 

[MizzouMike]

FYI just a follow up if anyone is interested... we ended up paying the guy for his damage.  The amount of damage claimed was less than the deductible and he was only asking for replacement parts / no labor or shop time.  I received the report from the claims guy today.

 

[zarticus]

:beerchug: