Double yellow passing

[bajakirch]

I saw this percolating a bit over on the National Rally video topic and thought it warranted it's own thread. No sense thread-jacking over there.

In the videos there's evidence of some double-yellow passing, and I know that a lot of riders engage in the behavior. I wanted to go on record as saying that I think it's a bad idea, both from the sense of motorcycle safety as well as motorcycle PR.

First, the safety discussion. We all know that most motorcycles can pass a vehicle much more quickly than just about any 4-wheeled vehicle. Some take that as a belief that it might be safer to make a pass than to stay stuck behind slower traffic. I call BS on that. Double yellows are created based on traffic engineering and sight-lines. Just because you can pass a vehicle doesn't mean you should. You put yourself at greater risk by making a pass in a double-yellow line zone.

Second, the PR aspect. We are all representatives of our past-time. When we, as motorcyclists, engage in blatantly illegal behavior, it's just one more thing that cagers will hold against us. We are not being good ambassadors of the sport.

Bottom line, for me at least:  Chill out and wait for a legal passing zone.

 

[gpink]

What would you consider a reasonable time/distance to wait?

 

[ConcoursKZ]

A Motorcycle can pas in a much shorter distance than a car. Putting yourself is a position behind a car on twisting roads or getting stuck in the pack behind the wrong drivers is not a good position on a bike. Personally the double yellow lines are really for cars and the distance set is definitely for cars. If you can pass safe and get out of trouble then I say and I will pass over a double yellow. You just cannot compare a Prius to a C14 when passing. 

Bottom line, for me at least:  Chill out and wait for a legal passing zone.

You can continue to Chill out in the danger zone. I will blow by the situation and put myself in a safe environment. But thanks for your opinion even though it is wrong to me.

 

[mattchewn]

gPink,

Not that I am saying that I do it, but I you can pull off and wait some time for the slow vehicles to get a ways ahead of you or you can slow down for a period of time to build a gap between you. This I did many times today since there was nowhere to safely pass, double yellow or not, the roads were just to twisty.  I was stuck behind very slow moving cars, several times they were moving well BELOW the posted limits, I am thinking THIS SUCKS ROYALLY!  On many of these roads the passing zones were all but non-existent. What to do?
Matt

OH YEAH! you know I'm a rebel!

)

 

[ConcoursKZ]

What would you consider a reasonable time/distance to wait?

When the first opportunity presents itself.

 

[jimp]

Double yellows are created based on traffic engineering and sight-lines. Just because you can pass a vehicle doesn't mean you should.

You must not live in California. Most of our roads are double lined. One could drive 30 miles and not have a passing zone even when you have a quarter mile and more of sight line. I was reminded this year why I love riding in Nevada and Utah: passing zones that are reasonable.... meaning enough room to pass, even if it was on a curve, sometimes too short for a slow car to make a pass. So much for your "engineer and sight lines" theory.

And as for PR, well... I always give a healthy "thank you" wave with my right hand after passing (yes, yes, I have a throttle lock and all it takes is a flick of my thumb to engage).

In Cali there are three types of car drivers - the ones who respect moto's and will move over onto the shoulder to let you pass; the completely clueless which you either sit behind or pass at first opportunity; and the ones you need to watch closely... these are the ones where you need to make a decision. Fortunately, the majority out here are aware of bikes and in the twisties will work with you to let you by. Just watch out for the blue hairs in Buicks with cell phones.... don't ask. 

I think I'll go out tomorrow and give the tourists on Hwy 1 (the PCH) a thrill with some high  speed passes on the outside of curves... engineering and sight lines taken into consideration, of course.  :rotflmao:

 

[gMitch]

In the videos there's evidence of some double-yellow passing, and I know that a lot of riders engage in the behavior.

I do it all the time.....................................................in VT!  :motonoises:  :motonoises:

 

[OMoaC]

Double yellows are created based on traffic engineering and sight-lines. Just because you can pass a vehicle doesn't mean you should.

You must not live in California. Most of our roads are double lined. One could drive 30 miles and not have a passing zone even when you have a quarter mile and more of sight line. I was reminded this year why I love riding in Nevada and Utah: passing zones that are reasonable.... meaning enough room to pass, sometimes too short for a slow car, even if it was on a curve. So much for your "engineer and sight lines" theory.

And as for PR, well... I always give a healthy "thank you" wave with my right hand after passing (yes, yes, I have a throttle lock and all it takes is a flick of my thumb to engage).

In Cali there are three types of car drivers - the ones who respect moto's and will move over onto the shoulder to let you pass; the completely clueless which you either sit behind or pass at first opportunity; and the ones you need to watch closely... these are the ones where you need to make a decision. Fortunately, the majority out here are aware of bikes and in the twisties will work with you to let you by. Just watch out for the blue hairs in Buicks with cell phones.... don't ask. 

I think I'll go out tomorrow and give the tourists on Hwy 1 (the PCH) a thrill with some high  speed passes on the outside of curves... engineering and sight lines taken into consideration, of course.  :rotflmao:

I'm with J here. The folks that are considerate swing to the right and always get a thank you wave. Double yellow or not. Then you sit behind the prius past 4 pull outs doing 45 and not get any help. Point taken though. Different situations, different solutions. Good thread. Noticed through ID and CO at this years Nat.. when the other lane had 2 lanes lines were dotted. Allowed passing when no traffic in oncoming 2nd lane. Liked that.

 

[works4me]

Passing on a double yellow is permitted in PA when it is
safe to do so and not posted as a "No Passing" zone. 

 

[MizzouMike]

yellows are created based on traffic engineering and sight-lines.

I will caveat this to say this is how they should be stripped, but that is not always the case.  However, I am sure it is illegal to pass in the double yellow, no matter how the lines got there or if they are truly warranted.

Now for some more entertainment

Car overtakes motorcycle in front of cop, gets pulled over

I sometimes pass in double yellow....  even though I should know better :-[

 

[mcfly]

Down here in Flori-duh, there's so much straight road it's the ultimate act of
self control NOT to pass an ol' bitty doin' 30 in a 55.  You might just melt if you
don't in the summer.

When conditions are right, I'll pass, but only when I know it's as safe as possible.
Is it legal? Probably not...  Am I endangering others by doing so?  No, or I won't do it.,

In most cases, I'm a really patient rider, and I can wait a considerable amount of
time to find it 'safe enough'.  The proverbial 'danger zone' is quite illusive in these parts.

???

 

[jimp]

Now for some more entertainment

Hehehe... PCH, south of Monterey. You can go 15 miles without a passing area on that section. You bet'cha bippy I'm passing if I get a chance.

Check that, had to refresh my memeory, but from Carmel south (the location of the video) it's double yellow for 90 miles. Ain't no way I'm stayin' behind a local in no hurry or a tourist with his mouth open on one of the best roads in the world.

 

[Bruiser]

Its definitely illegal here in Oregon. There are those times when it becomes a hazard to hang back, and do the legal thang. If I can be assured there are no cops visible, I will pass,  but I have to say 90% of the time, I just take a deep breath and chill. I know my C14 can overtake most anything, but I hate tickets.

 

[Cap'n Bob]

In the videos there's evidence of some double-yellow passing, and I know that a lot of riders engage in the behavior.

I do it all the time.....................................................in VT!  :motonoises:  :motonoises:

+1, I was there yesterday.  I love a state that has common sense laws that allow this. And another great law is no bill boards!  :great:

 

[JoeRau]

In Cali there are three types of car drivers - the ones who respect moto's and will move over onto the shoulder to let you pass; the completely clueless which you either sit behind or pass at first opportunity; and the ones you need to watch closely... these are the ones where you need to make a decision. Fortunately, the majority out here are aware of bikes and in the twisties will work with you to let you by. Just watch out for the blue hairs in Buicks with cell phones.... don't ask. 

In Minnesota there are only one kind of driver... and it is not the ones you want.  No one seems to see bikes, unless they ride themselves. 

 

[pbfoot]

I read somewhere long ago that the criteria that most states use for the double yellow lines were set in the 1950's by an early traffic engineer in a rambler of all vehicles. He timed how long it took to overtake based on his underpowered vehicle. I think in California it is all about revenue. There are many roads in some states where there is plenty of room to pass but for whatever reason the entire road is double yellow. I will pass whenever I feel it is safe regardless of the lines . If I get a ticket so be it.

 

[bajakirch]

For those saying it's safer to pass illegally than to sit exposed behind slow traffic, please convince me that -- if safety is truly of utmost concern -- how it's not safer to pull over for a couple of minutes to let the slower traffic move on, then continue on your ride at a pace that's more enjoyable to you.

 

[gpink]

The problem with pulling over and letting slower traffic move on is that they are still there and still going slowly leaving you in the same position you started.

 

[ConcoursKZ]

For those saying it's safer to pass illegally than to sit exposed behind slow traffic, please convince me that -- if safety is truly of utmost concern -- how it's not safer to pull over for a couple of minutes to let the slower traffic move on, then continue on your ride at a pace that's more enjoyable to you.

I do not know what state you are from, but I have ridden just about everywhere and cannot think of a place where I wouldn't pass someone over a double yellow if it was safe. Do you ride in the twisties? And if so do you ride with others? Do they have to wait for you all the time for you to catch up and then pass the same cars again? In all my years I have never seen a bike pull over to let the slow traffic get ahead so they could then again catch up to the slow mover again. Thats just about the most foolish thing I have heard in a while. What do you do when someone is poking in the fast lane? Sit there while cars blow by on the right? Wait till he finally exits the freeway? I will take you to Hocking Hills in Ohio one weekend and we can drive out there. Then tell me you wont cross the double yellow to pass someone doing 10 under the speed limit with 6 cars behind them.

I am calling shenanigans on this thread as I ain't buying your logic. Tell me you are just trying to stimulate a conversation and you are not serious.

On a side note on the Video where the bike gets passed. I would love to talk to the guy in the car to see what prompted him to pass. I am betting he was stuck behind the car that turned right for miles or the bike was slow the whole time. He certainly picked the wrong time. I know what he said as he went by the car.

 

[bajakirch]

Nope, no shenanigans and no BS. If I get caught behind traffic in a double yellow I either slow down and be patient, try another route, or pull over and wait it out. If the people I ride with are going to ride at a pace that causes them to have to wait for me at every turn, then we shouldn't be riding together. To date, it hasn't been a problem.

As for where I ride, I'm most tempted to pass on double yellow when I'm riding in the hilly 'Driftless Region' of SW Wisconsin. Anyone familiar with the area knows that the twists there can go on for miles. And it's always possible one will be caught behind RV or sigh-seeing traffic. It goes with the territory...meh. If I want the road to myself, I get up early and get out at the crack of dawn.

We all share the same roads and we all are supposed to follow the same traffic rules. When we all start deciding which rules apply to us and which don't, then we start having real problems. If someone thinks there's a valid reason to change the rules, we thankfully live in a place where we can make that happen.

 

[ConcoursKZ]

In My Opinion and I am opinionated! If you are riding on twisting country roads stuck in a parade of cars, trucks and other vehicles following these people on a bike its only a matter of time before one of them makes a mistake at your expense. Some fool texting not paying attention. a deer or other critter darts out and someone locks them up. How do you react to objects in the road if you never see it until the guy in front throws it in your face? Chuck holes? One of the drivers behind you gets pissed off and decides he cannot deal with the stupidity anymore decides to pass you and other cars. All because the guy at the front is too inconsiderate to pull off and let traffic by. Which is law also.  You stay in the pack and smell the diesel with little or no outs until something happens. Personally I am going to hammer down my C14 and blow by the guy at the first opportunity and put myself into a safe, happy, and fun environment to ride.  I sure as heck did not buy a bike that goes 0 - 60 in 2.9 seconds to read COEXIST and Obama bumper stickers all day. And God Forbid you get behind a Lumber Truck or some other psycho load what do you do? I still think you are poking the sleeping dog.

To be totally honest and I am sure many will agree. I thoroughly love blowing by traffic on Country Roads when safe, Especially Priuses, PT Cruisers and V-Twin Motorcycles. It gives me a sense of power that really makes me feel good. Its right up there with an eagle on a golf course, a five lb or larger bass, completion of a hard worked project, a twelve point buck, or the face of a satisfied woman.

 

[connie_rider]

I know it is illegal, but to be perfectly Honest, I do sometimes pass while in a Double yellow.
I always follow for some distance so that they driver should know that I want to get by.
If they are unaware or unwilling to flag me by, I wait until it is easy to do so without having to BLAST pass.
I also (try to) give a friendly wave to whomever I do pass in this manner. (Even the a____les)

Here's a thought that I haven't tried.  (Duh)
It might be more of a suggestion that you want to pass to "turn on your blinker"...
Might help them to understand what you want to do?
Thoughts????

Ride safe, Ted

 

[laketrax]

.....or the face of a satisfied woman.

Never seen one, what do they look like? :rotflmao:

Funny thread here... Just have a couple thing to offer- Yesterday I met up with some other COG members for a day of riding here in eastern KY in the Daniel Boone NF. Everyone stopped for lunch around 2pm and since I had been up riding since 7am, I said farewell and started heading home. I was on one of the best roads of the day when I came up behind a funeral procession of all things. Just my luck & in the middle of nowhere! I had to follow 20+ cars goin' 25mph for about 10 miles-
As far as the argument about where/when passing zones are designated... In the last few years around here where I live, "they" have painted double-yellow lines where for years there were passing zones. What's up with that? Sight-lines haven't changed, and the speed limit & traffic amount hasn't changed. Why is it now unsafe to pass in sections that were supposedly safe before? :017:

 

[connie_rider]

Especially Priuses, PT Cruisers and V-Twin Motorcycles.

HMMMMMM ,,      Now that you mention it: there was a time that I was "not" so polite!

The setting:  :angry:
    The Dragon:
    2 Harleys,, side by side  (Looking Cool)
    POKING along in the straits
    REALLY poking along,,,, around "every" turn
    6 bikes behind them/me
          Ignoring us,,,,,,
      A (kinda) straight section finally came up...  heh, heh,,, :great:

The Pass:  :motonoises:
Did my best to make the hair on their unhelmeted (FAT) heads,,,, Blow "forward" as I went by!!!  :rotflmao:

Ahh, the memories..   

Ride safe, Ted

 

[ConcoursKZ]

Especially Priuses, PT Cruisers and V-Twin Motorcycles.

HMMMMMM ,,      Now that you mention it: there was a time that I was "not" so polite!

The setting:  :angry:
    The Dragon:
    2 Harleys,, side by side  (Looking Cool)
    POKING along in the straits
    REALLY poking along,,,, around "every" turn
    6 bikes behind them/me
          Ignoring us,,,,,,
      A (kinda) straight section finally came up...  heh, heh,,, :great:

The Pass:  :motonoises:
Did my best to make the hair on their unhelmeted (FAT) heads,,,, Blow "forward" as I went by!!!  :rotflmao:

Ahh, the memories..   

Ride safe, Ted

Ted,

I am betting your Wife was mighty happy that night. Also: I am Golfing on Tuesday if you want to join we need a fourth. ) ) )

 

[connie_rider]

OOps, I fergot to mention.  :-[
The wife was on the back when this happened..
"SHE" gave them the finger as we passed..
Yepp, she's a keeper!  )

Ride safe, Ted

PS: Got home yesterday from the National.
      Going up North to play Golf will slow down the money saving (we've already started) for next years National.

 

[joblo1978]

Wow!  I am amazed of at least one ill-conceived response in regards to a clearly illegal activity, at least in all states I've visited and/or lived, which is most.  I can maybe count on 2 fingers in all my travels in my 35 yrs. on the planet that I came across a double yellow that I would consider arbitrary.  They're generally there for the same reasons, lack of visibility over a crest, upcoming turn, change in number of lanes, or an approaching intersection or driveway.

How anyone could argue putting yourself at high speed to execute a pass (80-90 mph likely), while blindly approaching a possible vehicle head-on,  with any of the conditions I just mentioned approaching as opposed to leaving a good buffer behind the vehicle(s) ahead of you is ridiculous.  Maybe an identical idiot will have the same idea as you just around the bend or over the crest and you could eliminate each other revoking your breeding privelages in the process.

Maybe I'm a pansy, but I get sketched when I see a LEGALLY passing vehicle heading straight towards me.  But when you get pulled over for illegal passing and speeding, explain your reasons to the cop too.  Just make sure you have your gopro on so we can have a good laugh. )

 

[Brass]

Wow!  I am amazed of at least one ill-conceived response in regards to a clearly illegal activity, at least in all states I've visited and/or lived, which is most.  I can maybe count on 2 fingers in all my travels in my 35 yrs. on the planet that I came across a double yellow that I would consider arbitrary.  They're generally there for the same reasons, lack of visibility over a crest, upcoming turn, change in number of lanes, or an approaching intersection or driveway.

How anyone could argue putting yourself at high speed to execute a pass (80-90 mph likely), while blindly approaching a possible vehicle head-on,  with any of the conditions I just mentioned approaching as opposed to leaving a good buffer behind the vehicle(s) ahead of you is ridiculous.  Maybe an identical idiot will have the same idea as you just around the bend or over the crest and you could eliminate each other revoking your breeding privelages in the process.

Maybe I'm a pansy, but I get sketched when I see a LEGALLY passing vehicle heading straight towards me.  But when you get pulled over for illegal passing and speeding, explain your reasons to the cop too.  Just make sure you have your gopro on so we can have a good laugh. )

You pretty much said what I was feeling

But I can't say I've never passed on a double yellow, but only when the vehicle in front was way under the posted limit

 

[joblo1978]

Thread should be renamed "excuses for squidding"

I mean if people can do it on motorcycles with a perceived "reason", cars should be able to do it too right?  I mean why not?

Maybe one day you will come over a crest on a motorcycle minding your own business to run head on into a car that was in your lane for sake of executing a pass.  Maybe the driver of that vehicle will argue that following a slower moving vehicle was too dangerous and inconvenient and had no choice but to pass illegally for HIS own safety.

Some really silly ideas running around here.  The motorcycle has no room aboard for your impatience and ego.  If you're so worried about your safety, don't get on the bike at all.

 

[Cap'n Bob]

    IIRC, it was already stated that passing on a double yellow is leagal in Vermont. I think the law states something to the effect of : passing on a double yellow is permissible if you can pass safely and return to you lane without endangering on coming traffic. But if there is a "not safe to pass" sign, passing is not allowed. If you cannot pass safely, it is all on you and you will be held responsible.
    This law was originally written because of slow moving vehicles such as farm equipment and such. But it bodes well for other vehicles as well. Motorcycles with their quick passing abilities are ideal for this. But obviously you must pass smart and not take extreme chances. Your life is not worth it.
    Basically it is illegal to pass any vehicle without a passing lane. That means going around a car that's pulling over or turning is illegal. The same as passing a car on the right that's waiting to make a left hand turn. It's all illegal. In my experience, there are many places where a vehicle can safely be over taken on a double yellow line. This of course requires either a vehicle with the capability (such as a motorcycle) to safely do this. Or the vehicle must be moving at a very slow pace that would allow a not so fast vehicle to safely do this. But I have never been anywhere in the US that  never had a double yellow line that I would consider being safe to pass with a vehicle with the capability. I am not under any illusion that all double yellows are safe. But never had I seen there being none at all that I could not safely pass. By safe I mean enough sight distance to safely execute such a pass.
  With that said, other than in Vermont, passing any vehicle in any way is illegal on anything other than a broken yellow line. Plain and simple. And I would never purposely break any traffic laws.    Now as far as comparing this to squidding. There is a big difference between passing a slower moving vehicles safely because you prefer to move at a different rate of speed, and blatantly taking extreme risks to show off or such.

 

[S Smith]

IMHO you can't paint all situations with the same broad brush stroke.  Different states have different nuances to their statues.  That's like some folks say lane splitting is illegal, but the CA guys will generally be the first to say this isn't so there (and in most places in EU).  And so it goes for passing on a double yellow.  Vermont statutes allow for passing in a double yellow in given circumstances, and requires the vehicle being overtaken to yield right of way. I suspect there may be other states with similar nuances in the statutes.

 

[joblo1978]

I read somewhere long ago that the criteria that most states use for the double yellow lines were set in the 1950's by an early traffic engineer in a rambler of all vehicles. He timed how long it took to overtake based on his underpowered vehicle. I think in California it is all about revenue. There are many roads in some states where there is plenty of room to pass but for whatever reason the entire road is double yellow. I will pass whenever I feel it is safe regardless of the lines . If I get a ticket so be it.

Oh yeaaaahhh, because 1950's cars with flathead V8's were sooooo much slower than the Rabbit's, Beetles, Metro's, and Smart's that came along in decades following.  Really doesn't matter when they were first painted because they keep getting painted over and over and new roads are being built with idenitcal lines and standards.  Don't try and use vague historical factoids to justify what you do while not caring in the process.

But I guess it might only be someone elses life we're talking about so you go ahead and be the judge of what's safe for them or not.  While you're at it why don't you go ahead and be the judge of their physical abilities too, like their reaction time, and vision, experience driving, or whether they're DWI or not.  Seriously?

Some people are not appreciative of motorcycles, speeders, and just getting passed illegally and may just elect to accelerate while cutting you off, or worse just run you right off the road.

Did you know in a recent poll of Californians 7% had purposly attempted to purposly cut off lane splitters?

 

[Sport rider]

I don't live there, but I ride and pass according to Vermont's law.  Unlike what the government thinks, I am perfectly capable of being responsible enough to know when it is or is not safe to pass.  I don't begrudge anyone who chooses not to pass.  it is their ride and their decision.  I take some bit of offense to others who want to tell me what i should or should not do.  If I should happen to get a ticket (which I never have), then that's on me.  My choice, my decision.

 

[mattchewn]

JB,

Take a breath, everyone here has an opinion and they are not all the same. Some people here agree with you and some don't, it's all good. We are not going to tell you how to ride your bike or drive your car. Please afford us the same courtesy. I just started doing some searching and it appears that passing on a double yellow is in fact LEGAL, in Pennsylvania, under specific circumstances. In my home state, Maryland, it is illegal 100% of the time.  Have I done it? Yes. did I do it in as safe a way as possible? HELL YES!  I am not trying to get myself or anyone else hurt. I doubt that other riders on here are unnecessarily putting themselves at high risk just to pass a slow moving vehicle.  COG does not support or endorse any illegal riding or maneuvers of any sort in any jurisdiction in any country. There are arguments for and against every law on the books in every state. Are you going to tell me that you NEVER break any law at any time for any reason? I know I can't make that claim and I doubt that there are huge numbers of people that can.
Matt

 

[joblo1978]

JB,

Take a breath, everyone here has an opinion and they are not all the same. Some people here agree with you and some don't, it's all good. We are not going to tell you how to ride your bike or drive your car. Please afford us the same courtesy. I just started doing some searching and it appears that passing on a double yellow is in fact LEGAL, in Pennsylvania, under specific circumstances. In my home state, Maryland, it is illegal 100% of the time.  Have I done it? Yes. did I do it in as safe a way as possible? HELL YES!  I am not trying to get myself or anyone else hurt. I doubt that other riders on here are unnecessarily putting themselves at high risk just to pass a slow moving vehicle.  COG does not support or endorse any illegal riding or maneuvers of any sort in any jurisdiction in any country. There are arguments for and against every law on the books in every state. Are you going to tell me that you NEVER break any law at any time for any reason? I know I can't make that claim and I doubt that there are huge numbers of people that can.
Matt

Wait a minute, I thought I was in the "safety" forum.  I'm not telling anyone HOW to ride, just making talking points.  I can't ride your motorcycle for you from where I'm at,  but would it be fair to say that the majority of members here DON'T live in the two states you mentioned with the addition of Vermont?  If people aren't intentionally putting themselves at excessive risk than why do so many crash?  What's the most recent poll on this forum alone?  50% crashed?  Yourself included maybe?  So far, I make up a portion of the other 50% and maybe that should tell YOU something.  Or maybe I'm just lucky.  I wonder what percentage of the 50% crashed have or would have piped in here advocating illegal passing?  Hmmm?

COG isn't advocating unsafe riding, but I see some of it's members do based upon some strange perceptions.

There may be arguments for or against these laws, but no argument to not follow the traffic laws.  What would happen if everyone followed all the traffic laws all the time?  Does one more person following one more traffic law make the roads a better place? 

Of all motor vehicle operators we motorcyclists are the most criticial when it comes to others breaking laws that endanger us while not paying attention, but on the other hand motorcyclists will argue their own reasons for breaking the law and endangering others as well claiming it's ok because they gave it extra attention.  It's ridiculous! 

Surely you can see the hypocrisy in that can't you?

The OP had it right by stating you don't look cool out there to others breaking the law.  Or has everyone gotten over all the Hell's Angel's stigma already?

At the end of the day passing over a double yellow line is a major traffic violation in over 80% of states conservatively, and the outcomes of accidents (head-on collisions) stemming from these violations are almost always deadly.  But by all means, ride however you want.

 

[Sport rider]

that hypocricy applies to many outside the motorcycle community though JR.  it's not JUST us.  the things we complain about (generalizing, I know) are "mistakes" that operators make that put us in direct danger.  Passing on a double yellow does not necessarily do that ASSUMING one has clear line of sight.  My opinion only, of course, but when I pass like that, it's not on blind curves or such ill-advised situations.  it's only were I have sufficient line of sight to be safe.

 

[mattchewn]

JB,
I agree with you! I am not defending anyones' riding style or preferences. I do see the hypocrisy clearly, although I tend to take a slightly less critical approach to it myself. I get really pissed when I pass a dozen cars and every single friggin driver is texting on their phone instead of paying attention to their driving. This is infinitely more dangerous than an occasional "safely performed" pass on a double yellow. I am a person who will always take all the blame for my personal mistakes, missteps, or lapses in judgement and not try to put it on someone else. Believe it or not when I have been pulled over by a LEO I tell them the truth. "Yes officer I was doing such and such, no sir there is no excuse, blah, blah, blah"  As for the legalities I am sure there are other states with some exceptions to the rule. I suppose it is on each of us to find out the most we can.
As far as crash stats are concerned I cant answer because I simply do not know. From what I have read though more than 60% of the motorcycle accidents are the result of CARS failure to yield  right-of-way to the bike. Those stats also are not the direct result of someone passing or not passing on a double yellow. They encompass all accidents that were reported. For all the accidents and fatalities out there, there are a whole lot of miles covered safely by thousands of bikers all over. This is definitely a case of a few making the group as a whole look bad.
Matt

 

[joblo1978]

that hypocricy applies to many outside the motorcycle community though JR.  it's not JUST us.  the things we complain about (generalizing, I know) are "mistakes" that operators make that put us in direct danger.  Passing on a double yellow does not necessarily do that ASSUMING one has clear line of sight.  My opinion only, of course, but when I pass like that, it's not on blind curves or such ill-advised situations.  it's only were I have sufficient line of sight to be safe.

The outside community is irrelevant in your respect to this topic, but yes, cagers will be cagers.  Moving on...

Maybe YOU don't pass in those situations, but others do.  We wouldn't have the laws if it weren't an issue, hell it's an issue even with the laws apparently.  I just watched a video last night of a rider crossing a double yellow to pass two other motorcycles on deals gap of ALL places and stack it. 

I would imagine he THOUGHT it was safe to do.

How the hell hard is it for people just to stay in their lane?

 

[joblo1978]

JB,
I agree with you! I am not defending anyones' riding style or preferences. I do see the hypocrisy clearly, although I tend to take a slightly less critical approach to it myself. I get really pissed when I pass a dozen cars and every single friggin driver is texting on their phone instead of paying attention to their driving. This is infinitely more dangerous than an occasional "safely performed" pass on a double yellow. I am a person who will always take all the blame for my personal mistakes, missteps, or lapses in judgement and not try to put it on someone else. Believe it or not when I have been pulled over by a LEO I tell them the truth. "Yes officer I was doing such and such, no sir there is no excuse, blah, blah, blah"  As for the legalities I am sure there are other states with some exceptions to the rule. I suppose it is on each of us to find out the most we can.
As far as crash stats are concerned I cant answer because I simply do not know. From what I have read though more than 60% of the motorcycle accidents are the result of CARS failure to yield  right-of-way to the bike. Those stats also are not the direct result of someone passing or not passing on a double yellow. They encompass all accidents that were reported. For all the accidents and fatalities out there, there are a whole lot of miles covered safely by thousands of bikers all over. This is definitely a case of a few making the group as a whole look bad.
Matt

Well, I don't know where you guys are all at doing these illegal passes so flippantly, but in Colorado the double yellows really do not do you wrong.  Since my area has many mountainous curves and hills if you have a double yellow, you have a double yellow and passing with any machine is pretty stupid.  Many have traveled the roads long before me and have done just fine following them.  Cornering speed limits are pretty spot on too.  To some degree, I trust NHTSA in there regulations of most things traffic related and what's generally safe for most vehicles.  But there are still those revenue generating laws.

You seem to have a pet peeve over texting and driving.  How many million do you think have been performed "safely"?  It's their "choice" after all.

 

[mattchewn]

You seem to have a pet peeve over texting and driving.  How many million do you think have been performed "safely"?
[/quote]
How Many? ZERO. Every text required consciously removing attention from the significantly more important task at hand that is DRIVING! This endangered EVERY driver and rider in the vicinity for the entire time of read and write and send. Therefore none were sent/read safely. Seeing as this also happens at highway speeds as often as not there is far more danger being near someone doing this than in "safely" passing them double yellow or not. I have had texter's drift into my lane at highway speeds. NO THANKS!
  I am not saying that dangerous maneuvers are not happening, they are. But there are far more important things to focus on than a few crosses of a double yellow line with a clear line of sight. In my area they don't seem to know how to stop the line paint for anything. Miles of double yellow with nothing impeding your view does not seem necessary to me. I know that on a backroad with a long clear straight I am not gonna sit behind a farm tractor doing 5 MPH for any longer than is absolutely necessary. Even if he isn't texting! 
Matt
Good Discussion though!
Matt

 

[gpink]

This was an interesting thread until the safety nazis joined in with the only opinions that count. Theirs.

 

[lather]

I pass on double yellow when it is obviously safe and I can do it in a way that I feel the overtaken driver or rider will not feel abused or feel he needs to slow. I had 10 or 15 such opportunities on a 1300 mile trip this past weekend. I saw one stretch of road where the double yellow was obviously wrongly painted and then the next stretch of road SHOULD have been double yellow and was not.  The line painters are not infallible.

Once in Colorado I was pulled over by a county leo for passing on the double yellow. He asked me a few questions about my VFR 800 and then said he realized that the double yellow in this situation was not appropriate for my vehicle and told me to be on my way and have a safe trip home.

In the rural area of Louisiana where I live there are a lot of double yellow lines the look like the guy who painted them may have been drunk.

As for the speed signs for curves I find you cannot depend on them being very consistent but doubling them is still a safe bet.

 

[ConcoursKZ]

I might get flamed up here but I do think the rules are different for motorcycles. The accelerate faster, have a much smaller footprint, and way more maneuverability. There is no way I am getting log jammed up with a bunch of cars, trucks, whatever in a compromising unsafe environment if I can get out of it safe.

JB Quote: Some people are not appreciative of motorcycles, speeders, and just getting passed illegally and may just elect to accelerate while cutting you off, or worse just run you right off the road.

That there is attempted murder and has nothing to do with safety. That person should get a cell for a few years. 20 years ago they would have had there butt kicked.

JB,
I also respect you views on the legality and agree that we should follow the laws. If one chooses to do that then that is there choice. I have never passed a car on my C14 where I ever felt I or the vehicles around or traveling towards me were in danger. I have also never passed in a blind area nor shared the same lane during a pass of a car. The rules were once that when a vehicle of any kind has three vehicles in tow they were to pull over to the side and let traffic by. This rule is almost never followed today. Plus there is a whole new breed of driver that wants to control the road and actually likes holding up traffic. Either on a country road or highway. This individual creates accidents and has an agenda outside the law. You do what you will on the road but personally I will put them in my rear view mirror and put myself in open road.

When you do reach an area where passing is legal, do you go over the speed limit to complete the pass? On a highway do you travel in the pack or travel just over the flow or pace? 

 

[Sport rider]

that hypocricy applies to many outside the motorcycle community though JR.  it's not JUST us.  the things we complain about (generalizing, I know) are "mistakes" that operators make that put us in direct danger.  Passing on a double yellow does not necessarily do that ASSUMING one has clear line of sight.  My opinion only, of course, but when I pass like that, it's not on blind curves or such ill-advised situations.  it's only were I have sufficient line of sight to be safe.

The outside community is irrelevant in your respect to this topic, but yes, cagers will be cagers.  Moving on...

Maybe YOU don't pass in those situations, but others do.  We wouldn't have the laws if it weren't an issue, hell it's an issue even with the laws apparently.  I just watched a video last night of a rider crossing a double yellow to pass two other motorcycles on deals gap of ALL places and stack it. 

I would imagine he THOUGHT it was safe to do.

How the hell hard is it for people just to stay in their lane?

I'd call them stupid.  You can never legislate for that. 

 

[joblo1978]

This was an interesting thread until the safety nazis joined in with the only opinions that count. Theirs.

Referring to people who ride safe as some sort of extremist group?  In the safety forum no less?  How stupid.

 

[joblo1978]

https://www.google.com/search?q=double+yellow+crash+motorcycle&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari

 

[gpink]

This was an interesting thread until the safety nazis joined in with the only opinions that count. Theirs.

Referring to people who ride safe as some sort of extremist group?  In the safety forum no less?  How stupid.

Nope. Referring to people who decide what is best for others with a mind so closed nothing gets in.

 

[joblo1978]

What is this "safety" forum for?  Becoming a safer rider if it means humbling yourself to recognizing and changing some potentially unsafe habits you've accumulated?  Doing a self assessment and realizing maybe somebody is a better defensive rider than you?  Ditching some complacency? I dunno, maybe learning some new techniques to live longer?

Or is it just a place for flamers and trolls?  Ill be the first to admit I have some things to learn, but I think OP is pretty spot on.

 

[gpink]

Fixed the subject line for you.

 

[joblo1978]

Fixed the subject line for you.

U mad bro?  A likely resort when all depth and intelligence has run out.  For you I mean.

:-[

 

[lone-rider]

Since I posted the video that started this debate I guess I should chime in.

As others have noted, in recent years double yellow zones have expanded in many states. What many people don't realize is that safety is not always the primary concern and that in many cases liability is. What we have all too frequently is a dumbing down to the lowest common denominator.

Instead of giving people liberty to make decisions for themselves, and suffer the consequences of those decisions, the nanny state government wants to control all aspects for people who often times are too stupid to realize when they need to wipe their ass without being reminded.

While I can say that I frequently will pass on a double yellow line, I can also just as honestly say that I've never done it in an unsafe situation.

Humans are an amazingly capable species. There are however a wide range of abilities as well as notable exceptions on one extreme and the other. Traffic laws and signage are meant to set a standard as you can't have arbitrary or varying enforcement. It is far easier to say "you passed on a double yellow line" than to explain or articulate why a specific pass posed a danger to anybody on the road. It is easier to say "you exceeded the posted speed limit" than to articulate or describe why a speed was was unsafe.

Not to be arrogant, cocky, or an elitist, some people do possess higher skills than others. Absolutely, the rules should apply to everyone and I am not saying they shouldn't. However, when I willfully decide to break them I do so with the knowledge and with the willingness to take responsibility should I get caught. Some people have better reasoning skills, better reflexes, better understanding of mathematics and physics, and can make the decisions in an educated fashion without posing a risk. Others aren't able to walk and talk at the same time without overtaxing their abilities.

I program the GPS, change radio stations, engage in conversation with passengers, talk on the phone, and frequently text while I drive, I also will surf the Internet while I drive. In fact I read the three pages of comments on this thread during my morning drive home from work after the graveyard shift. I drive in excess of 25,000 miles a year, and I've done these things for several years. I've yet to have anywhere near even a close call let alone any accident. I haven't had a ticket in close to 20 years.

Meanwhile, I've noticed people freaking out when seeing me on the iPad, and even though I am driving safely, they end up swerving, tailgating and nearly hitting other vehicles because they become so focused on what I'm doing that they pay no attention to their own driving.

Again, it is about making intelligent decisions. Do I do these behaviors in bumper-to-bumper traffic on twisty roads? No. I assess what is going on and decide what I can or can't safely do. I do these tasks in multiple short "slices",  and always maintain the road in my peripheral vision. To hear many of these safety Nazis talk, you really have to wonder how we were ever able to handle such complicated things as flying commercial airliners, brain surgery, or putting people on the moon.

Those who share my beliefs may never convince others that sitting in a line of vehicles poses a greater safety issue than making a pass on a double yellow line, but my experience is that the last thing you want to do as a motorcyclist is to be static with the traffic around you. Motorcycles generally have a performance and maneuverability advantage and my opinion is that it would be foolish not to use those advantages and remain in a vulnerable position between vehicles where there is limited visibility of you and for you.

Yes, I have crashed- twice. Once my fault, as much as coming across a sleeping Great Dane in a corner can be, the other was the car's fault that hit me. The most recent crash was over 20 years ago.

 

[IIICON]

On my '01 blue Connie a few years ago, as I was riding in to the office, I had a line of 4 cars ahead of me doing 40MPH in a 55 zone.
Line was broken on my side so I zoomed around all 4 cars and then hit a nice 45* corner up and over a small crest.
To my surprise, there was a farm tractor with a panel truck just behind it, doing a whopping 20MPH.
I had 2 basic choices, hit the arse end of the truck, or slam on the (non ABS) brakes.
I opted for the 3rd option as I saw there was no one coming the other direction for a mile or so.
The line was still a double yellow from the corner/hill area.
I swung out and continued on my way at 55-60 as usual on the nice state road.
1st light I stopped at, I noticed an Impala right on my but. Then he followed me all the way into town and I put some space between him and I as I wasnt sure why this a hole was tailgating me.
A 1/4 mile up the road, all the vehicles in front of my started pulling off the road. I saw a cop with flashing lights coming up behind me fast so I too pulled off the road.
HE PULLED IN BEHIND ME.  ooops.....
The dude in the Impala was the local trooper barracks Captain on his way to work.
He called a buddy on duty and told him I was headed that way.
After the 2 troopers talked for a bit the Captain came over and asked me if I knew why the trooper stopped me.
I said no, I wasnt doing anything wrong?
He said what about when you passed me and 3 other cars back in your village?
Told him at best I went by at 60 so if he wanted to cite me for it to go ahead.
Then he said, what about when you passed the truck over a double yellow line?
I asked him if he meant the one with a farm tractor in front of it doing 15-20 MPH.
He didnt like my answer I guess.
He went back and yelled and shook his finger at the trooper and got in his Impala and split.
The trooper gave me a ticket for"crossing a double yellow line". (Unsafe passing)
He asked me if I knew what a Captain was. Said it was his boss so he had to give me a ticket or he'd catch hell later for letting me go.
Beat the ticket in court because th arresting officer did NOT see me commit the offense and the Captain wouldnt come to the courthouse when I demanded a deposition from him.

To this day, it has to be an extreme situation for me to cross "that line" again.  :truce:

You only get lucky once in a while.
  :great:

 

[gpink]

Fixed the subject line for you.

U mad bro?  A likely resort when all depth and intelligence has run out.  For you I mean.

:-[

Nope not angry at all. Just don't like bullies. And I don't think we'll ever be 'bros'.

 

[Sport rider]

https://www.google.com/search?q=double+yellow+crash+motorcycle&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari

JB, I think several of these are with regard to accidental crossing of the double yellow, not passing in double yellow.  I don't know that this is applicable to the discussion at hand.

 

[Cap'n Bob]

Maybe we should have governors installed on our bikes. Theres no need to ever have to go over the maximum posted speed limit for your home state. Really folks, lets lighten up here a little. It's only suppose to be a discussion. It seems some folks are taking the discussion to heart. 

 

[joblo1978]

Not sure if your response is applicable based on how many you read...

One of my last rides before departing to Afghanistan for this tour involved running into a speed trap while trying to make some space from a close riding vehicle.  Passed him up, hit a big downhill left sweeper and got nailed on exit.  Cops are merciless and will get their revenue for their new gear.  They don't understand motorcycle handling or care to.

I am no safety Nazi.  I was the last generation to not wear bicycle helmets.  Idiot drivers frustrate me as much as the next guy and I don't believe in legislating stupid.  If you guys had driven in other countries you would see the results of traffic laws being suggestions.  Try driving in the Middle East.  There are no lines. Maybe some of you know.  Or Korea!  Holy crap!

I'm not sure how riding behind a line of cars equates to vehicles "around" you, but I avoid congested areas during peak times.  I would assume we're referring to 2 lane highways aren't we?
How is a line of vehicles ahead of you a hazard if you're maintaining adequate following distance?  I just don't see this.  Having a vehicle in front of you is smart in the event of wildlife darting across if you're not tailgating.  For some wildlife is a huge concern.  Zip around a slow cager to find an elk in your path and see how that works for you.

Just because you can walk and chew gum at the same time don't expect me to just trust you with my life.  I don't care who you are.

 

[ConcoursKZ]

I went to JB's video page on youtube and I have to admit he is a very safe and law abiding rider. I watched several of his videos looking for a flaw in the law and did not find one. He does practice what he preaches.

JB while your and my driving methods are way different I respect your views and you call it like you ride it.

 

[joblo1978]

I went to JB's video page on youtube and I have to admit he is a very safe and law abiding rider. I watched several of his videos looking for a flaw in the law and did not find one. He does practice what he preaches.

JB while your and my driving methods are way different I respect your views and you call it like you ride it.

Well I appreciate it, but I'm not perfect.

 

[rev ryder]

https://www.google.com/search?q=double+yellow+crash+motorcycle&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari

JB, I think several of these are with regard to accidental crossing of the double yellow, not passing in double yellow.  I don't know that this is applicable to the discussion at hand.

But some of the comments ARE relevant.  Like this one from a CHiP in the first article where a truck made a U-turn in front of a motorcycle.

“I’m not the investigating authority, but if the tractor trailer crossed the double yellow lines to make the U-turn then he violated the law,” said CHP Inland Division spokesman Leon Lopez. “Drivers need to remember that double yellow line acts as if it were a brick wall. They’re not to cross it at all.”

Granted that's only California, but in Texas the law is the same.  If there is a solid yellow line in your lane, it is illegal to cross it for any reason.  If there is a double yellow, then no one on either side of the road may cross.  Have I broken this law? Yes I have.  In fact on a COG associated ride at the recent National while following a group, I did it several times though only a very small fraction compared to the others.  Because the speeds being traveled were also largely triple digit, when I would fail to pass, the group opened a great chasm between us that required all the more speed to try and close to remain with the group.  Much of this passing was unsafe.  Much of the ride was unsafe. Most of it did occur in reasonable rural areas that were not remotely congested making the actions at least appear safer even though they were blatantly against the law.

IF I were a new COG member or worse, a new rider, and in any fashion "impressionable," participating in such activities with veteran riders (particularly veteran COG members who are my mentors and role models)  might not be the best thing for me.  As it was, I left the ride early not having traveled across the country to simply go out on some OTHER state's highways in search of traffic citations.

I can be (and have been at times) the biggest hooligan in the group and have no right to throw stones.  I know I'm a hypocrite like everyone else here and do not want to try to convince anyone otherwise (it doesn't mean I don't know right from wrong, it simply means I'm weak at taking my own advice).  But it IS blatantly illegal to cross the double yellow (except in Vermont apparently) and I would venture (speculation inferred on my part and not an empirical statement) that few law enforcement officials would cut you/me/us much slack if they observe you/me/us passing in a double yellow.  Particularly noting that because double yellow lines ARE USUALLY in areas considered higher risk for passing which often have limited visibility, the speeds required for passing in these situations are usually (again inferred) going to be above the posted limit and/or the "normal flow" of traffic (which is obviously slower than we want it to be).

Will I ever pass again on a double yellow?  That's like asking me if I will ever wheelie again... I'd have to shamefully answer Yeah. :-[

Bottom line is that the activity is illegal (almost) universally. Double Yellows don't just mean I shouldn't do it, they mean I CANNOT do it legally.  So even though our ride is being interrupted and our fun quenched to some degree, even IF the situation really is more dangerous (that's so speculative in most cases it has become a justifying speech that holds a pretty limited amount of water most of the time IMHO), even if the road SHOULD be marked differently or if it looks perfectly safe or we have all the power in the world to pass, that doesn't change the fact that it is illegal (no apologies to Vermont). 

Americans have always sought to correct unjust laws and unjust situations by working legally to correct them... not by blatantly ignoring them... well, most of the time Americans do it that way, I do realize that it is ALSO our nature (when law abiding processes fail us) to eventually say, "Screw the King, I'm right and I'm going for it."

I can't help but recall the old "Right of Way" slogan of the seventies, "You may be dead right." 

You just can't LEGALLY pass on double yellow lines... except maybe in Vermont.

 

[rev ryder]

Maybe we should have governors installed on our bikes. Theres no need to ever have to go over the maximum posted speed limit for your home state. Really folks, lets lighten up here a little. It's only suppose to be a discussion. It seems some folks are taking the discussion to heart. 

I think our COG safety director would want us to take safety to heart.

 

[joblo1978]

Intelligent post Rev.  I agree.

 

[Sport rider]

Maybe we should have governors installed on our bikes. Theres no need to ever have to go over the maximum posted speed limit for your home state. Really folks, lets lighten up here a little. It's only suppose to be a discussion. It seems some folks are taking the discussion to heart. 

That's coming when Google gets their automated car idea working.  At that point, computers will control going the wrong way on streets, crossing lines when inappropriate, speeding, etc.  :-\

 

[Sport rider]

Intelligent post Rev.  I agree.

I agree.  I think it captures the various sides of the discussion well.  :great:

 

[joblo1978]

Maybe we should have governors installed on our bikes. Theres no need to ever have to go over the maximum posted speed limit for your home state. Really folks, lets lighten up here a little. It's only suppose to be a discussion. It seems some folks are taking the discussion to heart. 

That's coming when Google gets their automated car idea working.  At that point, computers will control going the wrong way on streets, crossing lines when inappropriate, speeding, etc.  :-\

That "idea" is reality already.  300k safe miles recorded.  Can't say I'm a fan, but the days of humans doing significant tasks are shortening.

 

[ConcoursKZ]

Maybe we should have governors installed on our bikes. Theres no need to ever have to go over the maximum posted speed limit for your home state. Really folks, lets lighten up here a little. It's only suppose to be a discussion. It seems some folks are taking the discussion to heart. 

That's coming when Google gets their automated car idea working.  At that point, computers will control going the wrong way on streets, crossing lines when inappropriate, speeding, etc.  :-\

That "idea" is reality already.  300k safe miles recorded.  Can't say I'm a fan, but the days of humans doing significant tasks are shortening.

Man seems to have a way of correcting things along the way. We could be back in the stone ages sooner than you think.

 

[rev ryder]

Maybe we should have governors installed on our bikes. Theres no need to ever have to go over the maximum posted speed limit for your home state. Really folks, lets lighten up here a little. It's only suppose to be a discussion. It seems some folks are taking the discussion to heart. 

That's coming when Google gets their automated car idea working.  At that point, computers will control going the wrong way on streets, crossing lines when inappropriate, speeding, etc.  :-\

That "idea" is reality already.  300k safe miles recorded.  Can't say I'm a fan, but the days of humans doing significant tasks are shortening.

Man seems to have a way of correcting things along the way. We could be back in the stone ages sooner than you think.

While this conversation, beginning with the governor comment, has rapidly morphed into a different thread it's still loosely related to issues of safety and how we deal with "dangerous" situations both personally and politically.  To add fuel to that fire I might ask, "So, what's more dangerous... "legislating safety" or "legislating humans out of responsibility"?  And where do we draw the line of demarcation on that and what are the implications?  ~duck~ 

 

[joblo1978]

You two just opened this for a massive discussion, but from both posts, were probably on the same page and have similar ideas on where were headed.  Probably in the not too distant future either.  I mean the prospect of WWIII, a stagflating economy, scandalous leaders?  Oh yeah, a correction is coming, and its not going to be good.  History shows us this.

 

[ConcoursKZ]

I park my bike in a faraday cage....  Lol

 

[rev ryder]

I park my bike in a faraday cage....  Lol

Mine just wears a foil helmet.  ;D

 

[lone-rider]

Call me a conspiracy theorist, but there is no way these laws will get changed. Too much revenue for the state and too much insurance premiums to be charged to "violators" for the insurance companies to ever allow traffic "safety" laws to be relaxed.

I am afraid we are well past our "representative" form of government working the way it was designed to. When legislators became lawmakers they decided they needed a continual stream of new laws as evidence that they are doing something. It is more about appearance than substance.

I am approaching 200,000 miles on motorcycles, well over 500,000 miles in cars, and did over 100,000 miles during a stint as a bus driver. My methods work for me, YMMV. I ain't saying people should be like me, I just want to point out that following all traffic rules to the letter is not the be all, end all of traffic "safety".

 

[rev ryder]

Call me a conspiracy theorist, but there is no way these laws will get changed. Too much revenue for the state and too much insurance premiums to be charged to "violators" for the insurance companies to ever allow traffic "safety" laws to be relaxed.

OK, Mr. Conspiracy Theorist (hey, you told me to call you that).    Perhaps newer and better laws can improve the constituency's "pleasure" with the legislators and thus improve their chances of re-election.

I am afraid we are well past our "representative" form of government working the way it was designed to. When legislators became lawmakers they decided they needed a continual stream of new laws as evidence that they are doing something. It is more about appearance than substance.

Well, legislators have ALWAYS been law makers.  It IS, after all, the very definition of the word legislator.  But representative government is totally dependent upon the PEOPLE making good choices as to who's going to be in office.  Granted the selection lists have been pretty crappy for a long time, but there really are people out there that want to serve that really want to make a difference.  THey are usually NOT the ones being supported by big oil or any other big money, but they do exist and it is our responsibility to find them and put them in office.  THis, of course, does not insure that they will not follow suit once in office and take the easy or popular path like the guy/gal they replace, but that's both the strength and the weakness of our form of government.  Nonetheless it's still the best one going anywhere I believe.

I am approaching 200,000 miles on motorcycles, well over 500,000 miles in cars, and did over 100,000 miles during a stint as a bus driver. My methods work for me, YMMV. I ain't saying people should be like me, I just want to point out that following all traffic rules to the letter is not the be all, end all of traffic "safety".

You probably have more miles under your belt than I, and I agree with you that just because something is a law doesn't make it safe or even safer, BUT... the plan is always that the, any law, law is to protect the most people possible.  Some traffic laws are silly, granted.  Back in the day, when you made a turn, you had to turn into the lane nearest you.  That was smart and a good law.  but now that vehicles have tighter turning radiuses and better power steering, in Texas the law has been relaxed so that you can turn into any convenient lane unless otherwise marked (and nothing is ever marked).  This means that the person at the same intersection making a right on red or on a green light can turn toward the center lane and the person turning left can aim at the farthest right lane thus allowing crossing paths.  The old law was better and safer, but someone saw it differently than that and made it nonsensical IMHO.  So yeah, not all traffic laws are good or even safe, but they ARE the law and the law is NOT to be violated without some form of emergency situation.  OK, stuck behind traffic and a runaway truck comes barreling at you from behind on a steep grade... you don't honk it on and pass everyone, you pull off the road safely to escape harm.  American pragmatism may tell us to do what works (for us), but that doesn't mean it's a good solution to the overall problem or even that what works for us doesn't endanger someone else.  Laws are meant to be obeyed.  It's why they are called laws.  They are binding upon ALL who operate within their constructs and are enforced for the good of the polis or community they are designed to protect.  Operating outside the law makes one a criminal, it really is that simple. 

We ALL do violate rules and laws at times.  But there's a slippery slope argument to be had about whether traffic laws are more minor than other areas of law... like say domestic violence or fraud or larceny.  Any pragmatism (it works for me) that is to be considered SHOULD be considered with an ideal in place like the old saying, "What's good for the goose is good for the gander" meaning if it's good for me, it needs to be good for others too.  I like to keep in mind Mortimer Adler's ideas of real and apparent goods and the spring from which they flow.  A "real good" is good for all and not just me... anything else that SEEMS good, is an "apparent good."  However real goods flow out of right desire which is temperant, courageous, and seeks justice as well as seeming prudent.  This is MY PERSONAL conception of the importance of law (even traffic laws) and it insists that law without virtue is anarchy.  I don't wish to push it on others. I struggle to live by it myself.  But then I consider myself a recovering pragmatist who all too often backslides from the ideal.

 

[laketrax]

Mine just wears a foil helmet.  ;D

I'm working on a custom chainmaille cover for my C14 as I type... Just gotta figure out how to incorporate Tech-Specs- )

Glad to see that we all understand this isn't a "live dangerously" squid-ish thread...
Regardless of what anyone here says, when I'm out riding my C14 and I get stuck behind anybody(man, woman, old, young, texting or not) and they're traveling significantly less than the posted speed limit, I will safely pass them when the proper time comes. Whether there's one dotted-yellow line on the road or two solid ones, it does not matter to me... I know, I know, I live on the edge! :34:

And as far as the bigger "can of worms" being opened here, let us all remember that whether the subject is war, or traffic violation fines, this is really what it's all about...

O'JAYS - For The Love Of Money (O'Jays Greatest Hits Album)

 

[joblo1978]

Call me a conspiracy theorist, but there is no way these laws will get changed. Too much revenue for the state and too much insurance premiums to be charged to "violators" for the insurance companies to ever allow traffic "safety" laws to be relaxed.

I am afraid we are well past our "representative" form of government working the way it was designed to. When legislators became lawmakers they decided they needed a continual stream of new laws as evidence that they are doing something. It is more about appearance than substance.

I'm not sure if others have seen the articles concerning license plates that are outside of the DMV registries for politicans and other lawmakers.  Say whatever you want, but it seems too apparent these guys want laws for us that don't apply to them.  Now that we're getting into the world of speed and redlight cameras, license plate scanners, and other surveillance state law-enforcement these guys will be able to rake in the cash with no bid contracts calling it a "campaign contribution".

Personally I think motorcycle laws, or the lack thereof are for organ warehousing.  In such a safety conscious environment, whey else would helmets not be mandatory?  Or lane splitting allowed?

 

[joblo1978]

My first speeding ticket in almost a decade, on the motorcycle no less, was here.  It's pretty easy once you follow the money to see the true purpose.  No other country in the world rakes in the money from traffic violators like in the US.  Watch out going through Denver guys.  The entire city is a speed trap.  I'm NHTSA certified on the use of radar and lidar and he see how these guys are using these tools.  According to NHTSA guidelines, the LEO is first supposed to visually estimate the speed to develop probable cause and use the device to substantiate the estimation.  These estimations are to be +/- 3 mph within the devices readings.

http://denver.cbslocal.com/2012/11/20/morrison-tiny-town-tons-of-tickets/

Literally, if you just pay the fine, you get half half the points administered.  This is a clever bait to unclog the court system making the accused forfeit their right to due process.  You pay, get on with your life, and they rake in the cash.

More info on cops robbing the people allegedly sworn to serve

http://theadvocate.com/home/6772875-125/class-action-suit-filed-over

Some COPS have also been fired for blowing the whistle on these scandals in other locations as well.  As an LEO myself, I pride myself in conducting constitutional law enforcement, and I do my best to inform others on issues with their practices.  You wouldn't believe some of the practices I hear others suggesting.

 

[lone-rider]

JB- now understanding you are a LEO, your stance makes more sense to me and I commend you for following the laws you enforce. As a 21yr 9-1-1/Dispatch veteran, I am all too familiar with the officers who hold others to standards they don't abide themselves.

 

[ConcoursKZ]

Too may cities have turned LEO's into ticket writing machines. And somewhere along the line LEO's think they are above the people who pay them. Protect and Serve in some areas is a thing of the past and seems to be growing. While as a whole I think most have good intentions.

 

[dcman98]

I think that my approach to a question like this is, how do feel about others passing in a double yellow? Now this discussion has mainly focused on highways and open rural roads, but what about city streets? I have encountered 6 people driving in oncoming lanes toward me in the past year. Every one of them entered the lane in order to execute a left turn. Either they drove in the oncoming left turn lane, or drove on the wrong side of the road to get to the driveway they wanted. Every one of them entered the wrong side of the road when there was no oncoming traffic. And every one of them made it so that I almost never saw my kids again. Every one of them probably convinced themselves that is was safe, and waiting in traffic inconvenient. In my will, I may insert instructions to kill anyone who offers that ******** excuse at my funeral. Breaking a law for safety reasons, sure. Putting others at risk for your convenience, not okay with me.

And if you pass at a double yellow, and cause an accident by someone trying to avoid you, well, then in my book, that blood is on your hands.

And like the investment guys say, past performance is not indicative of future returns. Perhaps you've never caused a problem with your riding, but the one time you do, it'll be too late to do anything about it, and it may not be you who has to suffer the consequences.

 

[MizzouMike]

If you are going to do it, I might suggest not here!

http://m.knoxnews.com/news/2013/sep/10/state-troopers-mount-motorcycles-for-enforcement/

 

[works4me]

My head is spinning. Before this thread, passing on a
double yellow ( legal where I live ) never seemed like
a big deal and was fairly routine.
Now, I feel like I'm gonna bring on Armeggedon if I do it.

Clearly, in states where it is permitted its not a big deal.
But where it isn't, it certainly will bring death and destruction
upon all those who attempt it.

Jeepers, doesn't ANYBODY have any common sense anymore?

 

[2linby]

Its illegal and unsafe. Can't say with 100% honesty I've never ever done it in the past, but I can say with 100% honesty I have not done it in over 6 years. As a MC instructor I cannot be a hypocrite when it comes to safety.  I do practice what I preach, er...teach! 

 

[lone-rider]

I think that my approach to a question like this is, how do feel about others passing in a double yellow? Now this discussion has mainly focused on highways and open rural roads, but what about city streets? ...

For me, this is only an issue in rural areas, State routes, etc. In urban/suburban areas no real point or advantage and definite increase in risks involved.

 

[mattchewn]

I think that my approach to a question like this is, how do feel about others passing in a double yellow? Now this discussion has mainly focused on highways and open rural roads, but what about city streets? ...

For me, this is only an issue in rural areas, State routes, etc. In urban/suburban areas no real point or advantage and definite increase in risks involved.

+1
Matt

 

[Cap'n Bob]

My head is spinning. Before this thread, passing on a
double yellow ( legal where I live ) never seemed like
a big deal and was fairly routine.
Now, I feel like I'm gonna bring on Armeggedon if I do it.

Clearly, in states where it is permitted its not a big deal.
But where it isn't, it certainly will bring death and destruction
upon all those who attempt it.

Jeepers, doesn't ANYBODY have any common sense anymore?

This is the best post in this thread by far!    :You_Rock_Emoticon:

 

[joblo1978]

JB- now understanding you are a LEO, your stance makes more sense to me and I commend you for following the laws you enforce. As a 21yr 9-1-1/Dispatch veteran, I am all too familiar with the officers who hold others to standards they don't abide themselves.

Thanks.  But just to keep things in perspective, I'm in the military.  We don't generate revenue for our departments and our Provost Marshall's are not elected, and the politics are very different, but crimes we respond to are identical despite what you would think.  The community is our biggest priority, and Military Police generally are not feared, but respected with the exception of the few who simply hate us.  Having no experience as a civillian cop, (only worked alongside or supported them as counterparts) I can tell you our ways of handling things are much different, and I am not a fan of their ways.  Diffusing a situation with communication is preferred over brute force and we are not at liberty to justify excessive force over our perceived threats, and a greater percentage of us seem to adhere to the color and spirit of the law vs. letter of the law.  We regularly endure hours and hours of sustainment training, and are held to a higher standard with respect to the codes we enforce.  "Professional courtesy" is something they grant to each other, not us.   

Most of my garrison MP work has been less patrolling, and more criminal investigations and detective type work.

 

[ManWorkingHere]

I don't do it so I choose to ride tail-end Charlie knowing the other riders will eventually wait up for me.  Or, I just find out where we have to go and get there my own way.  'Always ride your own Ride', I've been told so that's what I do.

 

[dld]

I've done it cautiously over the years, and don't think it's a bad thing if done carefully. That said, I just recently got caught doing it by a California Highway patrolman hiding behind a tree. $297.00!  I've been riding this road almost daily for over 10 years, and never seen a CHP in that spot. I've always been pretty careful about where I do it, but I'm a little more cautious now that I know it's a $300.00 hit!

DLD

 

[rev ryder]

I've done it cautiously over the years, and don't think it's a bad thing if done carefully. That said, I just recently got caught doing it by a California Highway patrolman hiding behind a tree. $297.00!  I've been riding this road almost daily for over 10 years, and never seen a CHP in that spot. I've always been pretty careful about where I do it, but I'm a little more cautious now that I know it's a $300.00 hit!

DLD

It's only three hundred the first few times.  Then it gets pricey. 

 

[pbfoot]

JB. Using your black and white LEO logic I suppose if a car was stalled out in my lane and the only alternative was to pass over a double yellow line I should just sit there until a LEO arrives to safely direct me around? You can't say that any pass over a double yellow is unsafe.

 

[jimp]

Its illegal and unsafe. Can't say with 100% honesty I've never ever done it in the past, but I can say with 100% honesty I have not done it in over 6 years. As a MC instructor I cannot be a hypocrite when it comes to safety.  I do practice what I preach, er...teach! 

And he has a bridge for sale, too. 

I know 3 MSF instructors, I won't name them, but yes, they all pass over double yellows. I've also ridden with local cops on Sunday morning rides. Guess what.... yup.

We all know what's right, and what's legal. Do we always do what's right? Or legal?

Ride your own ride and use your own judgement.

 

[connie_rider]

Jim,,,,  said it all.

We all know what's right, and what's legal. Do we always do what's right? Or legal?

Ride your own ride and use your own judgement.

E'nuff sed!!!

Ride safe, Ted

 

[rev ryder]

JIM said it all.

We all know what's right, and what's legal. Do we always do what's right? Or legal?

Ride your own ride and use your own judgement.

E'nuff sed!!!

Ride safe, Ted

There... fixed it fer ya Ted.  Didn't fix the problem though.  :deadhorse:

 

[ConcoursKZ]

JIM said it all.

We all know what's wrong, and what's fun. Do we always do what's fun? When no COG"S are watching?

Ride your own ride like nobody is watching.

E'nuff sed!!!

Ride safe, Ted

There... fixed it fer ya Ted.  Didn't fix the problem though.  :deadhorse:

> > >

 

[freebird6]

great thread. Actual discussion. Not hostile like most Americans think ALL debate needs to be. Our Founding Fathers understood debate and compromise for the common good. Not sure we understand that these days. Kudos to those above who get it.

I rarely pass on a double Yellow Line but I can't say never because like most here ....there are just places....on roads I ride frequently ....that those lines do make any traffic, safety or engineering sense. I recently came across 3 Indiana roads (y'all know how the nearest curve is in Ohio, michigan or Illinois) where I have sight lines of at least a half mile and the next county road is a mile away yet when they repainted the lines they made them double yellow. 4 miles from the nearest town,rows of beans and corn on both sides, clear sight lines  as far as you can see ahead and behind, limited driveways on both sides to the farms present and they changed it to a double yellow. On 2 of those they lowered the speed limit for some reason. Really? Those are the times I suspect the government may be doing something other than looking out for us. In all fairness, I have never seen an LEO on any of these roads in the 27 years since I moved here so cash is probably not the rationale.

Last couple of times on this road I elected to pass where I have always passed in the cage or on the bike. If, by chance an LEO is lurking in the corn I will ask him why they changed the markings (the county engineer and state highway folk refused to answer) on a road they have never patrolled or had an accident  (I checked the records to the best of my ability).

the answer for me is pretty complex ...my inner law abiding citizen avoids it ...even though I heve been a member of Citizens COalition for Rational Traffic Laws now found at  http://www.motorists.org/  which advocates for us on subjects like lane courtesy, long yellows, artifically low speed limits....I find that I have a basic respect for the yellow lines figuring they must have a reason. Unfortunately, if the trend is to use them indiscriminately like the artificially lowered speed limits I fear people will start blowing them off like they do speed limits. In cases where I know the road and have a clear line of sight and someone is driving, driving and talking with their elbow on the windowsill/texting, driving signifincantly slower, driving while yelling at the kids for spilling the coke from McDonalds and driving 10-20% lower than the posted limit I will pass.....

 

[Sport rider]

I was paying particular attention to this question this morning on my ride in to work.  There are a TON of variables that make this a pretty gray issue to give a black/white answer.  For me it depends on the speed of the vehicle that is holding me up as well as line of sight.  There was one area that the car was doing 50 and moving along reasonably although I would have liked to be moving a bit quicker.  I had VERY clear line of sight for a half mile, but it was double yellow.  I chose NOT to pass in that situation becuase the speed was reasonable.  if the car had been at 45, I would have passed.  There are a number of places like that along the way, but as I said...speed is a determining factor.

 

[rev ryder]

<SNIP>
....I find that I have a basic respect for the yellow lines figuring they must have a reason. Unfortunately, if the trend is to use them indiscriminately like the artificially lowered speed limits I fear people will start blowing them off like they do speed limits.

This is, I believe, largely the crux of the matter... not so much that the lines are being used indiscriminately, but that we just blow them off EVEN when they are use appropriately because we think (for some silly reasons) that they do not directly or appropriately apply to us.  Because we have more power or because we are more vulnerable or whatever.

I live in Texas where we have "probably inappropriate" 85 mph speed limits on some stretches of interstate.  Yet folks blow that off and drive 95+.  Where the speed limit is a generous 75 mph, they blow that off and drive 85+.  When in 65 mph zones, like on stretches of hwy 59 from El Campo to Houston, a divided highway that is nearly as good as most interstates, folks simply ignore the limit altogether and drive from 55 to 95 in stop and go bumper to bumper traffic reminiscent of inner city freeways.  The point I'm trying to make is that we are largely a bunch of scofflaws when it comes to speed limits whether they are appropriate for conditions or not.  This thread seems to indicate that by and large we (motorcyclists in general or at least in this small sample) have similar attitudes towards passing on the double yellow. 

I think this raises another question... If we are all about "situational" compliance to the LAW based on something within ourselves, what damage (if any) does that do to any sense of "ethical" responsibility under the law?  I mean, how do people like me begin to think that my identity as a human being rests solely on what "I" see as reasonable , prudent, or appropriate; so much so that I am willing to overlook or justify any behavior, or crime, and larger concern in order to secure that self-importance, that intoxicating freedom, that power that will make me forget for a moment everything else? 

As a child, and still today (at least on Thursdays at Rotary Intl. meetings), I join with others to say the Pledge of Allegiance (which is a pledge of fidelity to the government of the USA), but then we go out from that place and live by rules of our own making "blowing off" the things we say we believe and pledge allegiance to.  How do we lose our bearings like that?

EDIT TO ADD:
I am NOT trying to make this either a religious or political discussion, this is simply an example and many others are available.  Say like wedding vows we take that we "blow off" in short order.  We cheat or we lie or we do other harm to the one we've taken an oath/vow to do no harm to.  How do we lose our bearings like that?

 

[Sport rider]

I don't think you can generalize that much Rev.  There are some things that we (generically)  take more seriously or are more committed to such as vows or pledges.  I think the same way with regard to my boy scout days and the oath.  However, we as americans are also an independant lot who does not generally like the government telling us what to do.  Many of us have the common sense to know what is safe and prudent.  Sadly, some, such as those going 95, are knuckleheads.  :-[

I do use the solid yellows as a tool to be safe.  However, keep in mind that the government's view of what is save is a generalization based on lowest common denominators.  in this case cars/trucks are MUCH slower at passing others.  The yellow line functions to keep them safe as well.  Motorcycles are much faster.  In SOME cases, I can quite easily determine that I can safely pass when on my motorcycle.

 

[ConcoursKZ]

Will this thread change the way any of us ride?

 

[Sport rider]

Perhaps.  we all learn and use that to evaluate our riding.  I would say it helps me to be even more aware of safe passing.  Will I stop crossing yellows?  no.

 

[4bikes]

This has been a most interesting thread.  It’s a good thing that crossing the double yellow is legal in Pennsylvania in most cases, because 3 out 10 objects on the road are an Amish Buggy, Tractor, or a Bicyclist.

There is one thing to consider with reversing any double yellow line law.  It’s much easier to initially Dot a Line, than Dot it after it’s been painted double yellow.  Really, the only way to reverse it would be to pave the road or tar and chip it, and that seems to happen once in a lifetime.

 

[slingblade]

Yes - I confess to passing on double yellow's more than I probably should.  I make sure I am 100% comfortable that I can easily make it through and I only do this when I'm passing someone who is going under the speed limit or get's on my last nerve by tapping the brakes incessantly ...I know its still illegal and bad form etc. etc.

When riding two-up I make sure the Mrs gives the OK - which, if I am ever pulled-over I will be sure to tell the officer that she said it was 'Ok'.  :-[