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ECU FLASH & Butterflies

razorsedge

razorsedge

Scooter
Would someone please take the time to explain to me what FLASHING the ECU means and why you would remove the butterflies ? I don't get it. But also I come from the Harley world. lol
 
Trouble said:
Would someone please take the time to explain to me what FLASHING the ECU means and why you would remove the butterflies ? I don't get it. But also I come from the Harley world. lol
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Randy,
  "flashing" is the process of changing the data on a ROM chip.  Our ECU's are 'flashed' at the factory with certain fuel and engine control tables.  If you want a more aggressive 'tune' you have to 'flash'. 
  The 'butterflies' being referred to are the secondary throttle plates that are upstream of the actual throttle plates you control with the throttle.  These secondary plates can alter the amount of air that enters the engine.  They are under control of the ECU.

Clear as mud?

 
KawiMick said:
Trouble said:
Would someone please take the time to explain to me what FLASHING the ECU means and why you would remove the butterflies ? I don't get it. But also I come from the Harley world. lol
Click to expand...

Randy,
  "flashing" is the process of changing the data on a ROM chip.  Our ECU's are 'flashed' at the factory with certain fuel and engine control tables.  If you want a more aggressive 'tune' you have to 'flash'. 
  The 'butterflies' being referred to are the secondary throttle plates that are upstream of the actual throttle plates you control with the throttle.  These secondary plates can alter the amount of air that enters the engine.  They are under control of the ECU.

Clear as mud?
Click to expand...

what's the reasoning for the secondary butterflies ? does flashing your ECU cause warranty problems or void it ? And the BIG question, does any of this make that much of a change in the HP and Torue ? I mean really ! The freakin thing is a rocket already.
 
Trouble said:
what's the reasoning for the secondary butterflies ? does flashing your ECU cause warranty problems or void it ? And the BIG question, does any of this make that much of a change in the HP and Torue ? I mean really ! The freakin thing is a rocket already.
Click to expand...

1. The ECU controls the engine output power with the secondary throttle plates. They are also used with the 2010+ traction control operation.
2. Warranty would only be affected if a failure could be directly related to the ECU tuning. 
3. Yes, it makes a big difference in Torque and HP on my bike with a full Muzzy dual exhaust.
 
Reflashing the ecu makes a HUGE difference in low-rpm torque - adding more than 20 lb.ft from 3000 to 6000 or so rpm. The butterflies were likely added to make the beast not quite so tempermental if you grabbed a handful of throttle at low revs - but wth traction control you get all the grunt without worrying about the rear tire breaking loose or the front one coming off the ground  :)
 
KawiMick said:
Trouble said:
what's the reasoning for the secondary butterflies ? does flashing your ECU cause warranty problems or void it ? And the BIG question, does any of this make that much of a change in the HP and Torue ? I mean really ! The freakin thing is a rocket already.
Click to expand...

1. The ECU controls the engine output power with the secondary throttle plates. They are also used with the 2010+ traction control operation.
2. Warranty would only be affected if a failure could be directly related to the ECU tuning. 
3. Yes, it makes a big difference in Torque and HP on my bike with a full Muzzy dual exhaust.

If you remove the butterflies, will it effect the traction control ?
Click to expand...
 
Trouble said:
If you remove the butterflies, will it effect the traction control ?
Click to expand...

Yes,
  Fred Harmon did some testing on his 2010 with the secondary throttle plates removed.  The traction control still works but is not as smooth.  It affects it but does not ruin it completely.
 
Well ,with the way I ride on the edge , traction control is vital. It will save you quick from high siding in curves so I need it to be sharp as possible . I delibritly went down a dirt road just to test it out and I was amazed at how it works. To me, the C14 has amazing power anyway. Im not really out to outrun anyone. If I was, I would get on a winding road with twisties and test the skill rather than raw horsepower.
As for flashing the ECM, now this sounds like a idea. Better bottom end. Better overall performance.

One thing I learned over the years and owning many mototcycles. Its BEST to leave it factory if you want a long engine life. Those people know what their doing and there's a reason for everything. Once you modify something, it's not long before you have to do something else. then something else. It's always something. Think I'll stick with the farkle quest. Thank you so much for answering my questions. this has to be one ofr the nicest forums I've been on. Great people to know. . .
 
Trouble said:
why you would remove the butterflies ? I don't get it. But also I come from the Harley world. lol
Click to expand...

So you can see through your windshield? Lemon pledge does a nice job loosening them up so you can wipe them off.
 
 
I had my 2010 bike flashed by Ghul Motors, plenty of info per Freds links. I like to think I can ride, but I'm no expert rider and still have plenty to learn and improve on.

The key reason I had the flash done was to gain the improved low end torque and to smooth out the power curve. Does it make the bike harder to ride?...absolutely not in my opinion!!

I think it makes the bike smoother especially in the twisties where you want low end torque and are using lower gears, I don't feel like I'm riding the bike as hard and it just gobbles up the corners.

The other question is is the throttle more twitchy? I don't think so, I can barely tell the difference until I'm giving it a solid twist.
 
Stewart said:
I had my 2010 bike flashed by Ghul Motors, plenty of info per Freds links. I like to think I can ride, but I'm no expert rider and still have plenty to learn and improve on.

The key reason I had the flash done was to gain the improved low end torque and to smooth out the power curve. Does it make the bike harder to ride?...absolutely not in my opinion!!

I think it makes the bike smoother especially in the twisties where you want low end torque and are using lower gears, I don't feel like I'm riding the bike as hard and it just gobbles up the corners.

The other question is is the throttle more twitchy? I don't think so, I can barely tell the difference until I'm giving it a solid twist.
Click to expand...

My problems not so much the power delivery, rather the freakin jerking of the drive shaft. I can let off thr throttle and it jerks bad. then back on throttle and it jerks. theres nothing smooth about the power flow in curves with the C14 for sure. I've tried everything. To be honest, Im shocked at how hard it does jerk . Don't know if thats normal for a shaft drive or not, but it's to the point its really strong deturant regarding the positive aspects of razor edge cornering. there's nothing smooth about it. Why is it like that ? Can't they tighten the shaft up ? Does it need that much play that it has to jerk like that ?
 
Trouble said:
Stewart said:
I had my 2010 bike flashed by Ghul Motors, plenty of info per Freds links. I like to think I can ride, but I'm no expert rider and still have plenty to learn and improve on.

The key reason I had the flash done was to gain the improved low end torque and to smooth out the power curve. Does it make the bike harder to ride?...absolutely not in my opinion!!

I think it makes the bike smoother especially in the twisties where you want low end torque and are using lower gears, I don't feel like I'm riding the bike as hard and it just gobbles up the corners.

The other question is is the throttle more twitchy? I don't think so, I can barely tell the difference until I'm giving it a solid twist.
Click to expand...

My problems not so much the power delivery, rather the freakin jerking of the drive shaft. I can let off thr throttle and it jerks bad. then back on throttle and it jerks. theres nothing smooth about the power flow in curves with the C14 for sure. I've tried everything. To be honest, Im shocked at how hard it does jerk . Don't know if thats normal for a shaft drive or not, but it's to the point its really strong deturant regarding the positive aspects of razor edge cornering. there's nothing smooth about it. Why is it like that ? Can't they tighten the shaft up ? Does it need that much play that it has to jerk like that ?
Click to expand...

A lot of times, a throttle adjustment and even a throttle tamer will help. But not always. One thing is for sure, it's worse with the flies out!
 
I've never noticed any excessive drive line lash on either of my two C14's or a twitchy throttle, even with the butterflies removed. As a matter of fact, I think the C14 has probably the least amount of drive line lash and the smoothest throttle of any shaft bike I've ever ridden.\

If you want to feel what a bad throttle set up feels like, go ride an 06 FJR, and if you want to feel what real drive line lash is all about, go test ride the new BMW K1600GT.
 
Drive line lash ? Ok ! I was wondering what it was called. Ok, I tightened up the slack in the throttle. Still does it. I guess this is something I will have to get used to. it just don't feel healthy. Im afraid Im going to jerk something out of the dive line. but if this is normal, then it is. Im learning to adjust to it. All im saying is if you let off the throttle and back on in a curve and your around 5K or over, get ready for that lash back BIG TIME.
 
Trouble said:
Drive line lash ? Ok ! I was wondering what it was called. Ok, I tightened up the slack in the throttle. Still does it. I guess this is something I will have to get used to. it just don't feel healthy. Im afraid Im going to jerk something out of the dive line. but if this is normal, then it is. Im learning to adjust to it. All im saying is if you let off the throttle and back on in a curve and your around 5K or over, get ready for that lash back BIG TIME.
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I think you should get a throttle tamer (G2) or modify your existing ramp at the throttle tube if your comfortable doing that sort of thing. That and keeping throttle cable slack to almost nil (revs should not increase as the handlebars are turned while stopped). As the miles pile on you will get more used to controlling a high torque/hp fuel injected engine, and the your ability to handle drive line lash through throttle control in the twisties will get better in time. I have the FJR, and that worked for me and I imagine the C14 is similar in this regard.
 
Unfortunately I don't have access to other bikes to compare the lash in the drive train to comment with any evidence but I don't notice what your desribing. The only time might be when I'm in OD. Coming off the gas and on again quickly in OD or 6th gear there is a huge amount of movement in the drive line. In all other gears I don't notice it.

The other factor might be getting off or on the gas. In lower gears I'm either off or on, braking hard or accelerating, avoiding anything in between. During rider training its been explained to me that bikes are designed for either + throttle input or -, anything in between and they don't like it, they don't know what the rider wants when coasting.

So coming back to the lash, I guess what I'm saying is I'm focused more on my throttle control and steering input as the determining factors for how the bike behavives. When I make a mistake I notice issues with the bike handling, when I don't it rides like its on rails.

Just my observations/opinion.
 
Can't have a throttle tamer. I got heated grips. I think im still trying to shift gears like im on my harley to be honest. I've started praticing shifting and throttle control and sometimes I can hit it right on the head and its smooth as glass. But if i give it throttle and totally let off then shift then throttle theres a lash every time. It's taking some learning because the throttle on this C14 is so responsive. Just a little movement and your gone. I think I got things to learn about metric motorcycles. Been around Harleys to long I guess.
 
Wow first for everything I guess.  I can't believe anyone would find "driveline lash" to be an issue in any way with the Concour 14.  I have found virtually none, all just nice solid smooth power delivery
and I have had the ECU reflashed.  I also own a BMW K1600 GT and I suppose it could be used an example of what "driveline lash" is,  for someone wanting to know what it is, but an understanding of the throttle and clutch all but eliminates it on the Bimmer.
 
Jagman said:
I also own a BMW K1600 GT and I suppose it could be used an example of what "driveline lash" is,  for someone wanting to know what it is, but an understanding of the throttle and clutch all but eliminates it on the Bimmer.
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So Jagman, how you likin that new BMW anyway? How would you say the power compares to your C14 with a reflash and CS1?
 
WOW ! I've never seen so many BMW guys on a Kawasaki forum before. We must REALLY be a threat to them. LMAO  :rotflmao:
 
Be careful about starting brand wars. There are many folks on this board who have owned other brands of bikes. Some of us even have more than one brand bike in our garage.
 
I agree. There is no need to start with anything that might be construed as brand bashing or other insinuations about other bikes or riders. Lets try to keep the thread on track, if we can. Lets leave anti-other brand motorcycle posts out of it. Thanks.
 
My 2010 is my second shaft drive bike. First is, I still have it, is a 1982 Yamaha Vision. I had the same issue with what I think would be more correctly refered to as surge as in engine rather than drive line lash. What helped me the most was eliminating ALL the throttle slop and when shifting instead of compleatly backing off on the throttle just back off ever so slightly almost to the point of just thinking about it. Smoothed out my riding alot.
 
When I first rode the C14 it was at Daytona. I felt it there but firgured it was just me. Then I got the chance to ride another and I felt the same thing. I bought one and really felt it. I've tightened up the throttle. What I have found is this. I come from a V twin world. there you don't have to worry about lash back in the drive line. You pull the clutch, you shift, then you give it throttle. Smoth as silk. But tith the c14 not so. I founfd the quicker you shift the better the trans likes it. A quick squeeze of the cluth while shifting with little letting off of the throttle and back on quickly and she shift as smooth as silk. But it takes pratice. Im just surprised the drive has that much slack to have a lash in the first place.
 
Haven't had the issue on my C14.  Smooth clutching usually avoids the issue.  (I've owned several shaft drive bikes including two others in the stable.)
 
This bike has the least driveline lash of any I've owned.  Smooth use of the clutch and throttle will make what little is there....disappear.


 
My 2012 C14 will be my first drive shaft bike, ever.

I'd ridden MotoGuzzi bikes, and took a demo ride on a K-1600 GTL, so I already know what to expect.

If I could master the clutch and friction point on my ZX14, as jumpy and hair trigger as it was, I should be able to handle a C14.
 
I've owned a number of shaft-drive bikes and I can say without hesitation my C14 is the first (ever) that I can't notice any drive lash. 

That said, what I think the OP is experiencing is the "crispness" (for lack of a better word) when getting on/off of the throttle.  This I did notice on the C14 immediately and honestly I'm still not 100% used to it.  For the most part it's an aspect of fuel injection and the accompanying throttle position sensor providing instant response.  If you're used to riding carbureted bikes (like I was) you will find the abrupt on/off of the throttle a little unsettling, especially since most every street legal bike sold in the states with a carb over the last 20 years has had a slow responding CV carb (relies on engine vacuum to open the slide). 

I really notice it most riding around in town in the lower gears where you are frequently on/off the throttle.  It also rears it's ugly head at highway speeds when you take your hand off the throttle momentarily and the bike nose dives then lurches forward when you roll it open again.  It's not excessive or unsettling by any means, but definitely no gently rolling back onto the throttle on a CV carbureted bike.  As someone else mentioned above, the easiest way to eliminate most of it is to not close the throttle completely when shifting.

Rest assured though, unless there's something wrong with your final drive I'm confident saying what you're experiencing has nothing do to with drive lash.
 
It sounds to me like he's talking about that engine surge that happens if you try to pull the clutch as you back off the throttle, then shift, then back on the throttle as you ease out the clutch. You get a slight surge in the engine rpm before the clutch is fully engaged.

My experience with the Connie is that the quicker you shift and the less you back off the throttle, the smoother the shift. You can also apply a little pressure to the shifter and just fan the clutch pretty much without changing the throttle at all.

I may be "doing it all wrong", but I don't recall ever having the issue with my shifts.
 
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