I've wondered if in a situation where you know you're about to go down if you can possibly control any aspect of the fall? Maybe some of you who have had that unfortunate experience could shed some light on how it "went down"...sorry for the pun. Do any of you think it possible to control how you fall? Try and get contact points on the armouring in your riding gear? Does it all happen so fast that just instinct and fate take over? I've tried to imagine what would be going through my mind the few seconds before you know you're going down.... try and jump free of the bike?...stay with it? Slide on back or front? None of the above? I am sure the type of accident dictates the answers to many of these questions. Also likely is that you're spending most of your mental power trying to stay up instead of preparing to go down. I am sure it happens super fast. Since I am a bit out on the edge here, I'll keep going with a crazy thought to those of you who are riding instructors. Could a person be trained how to fall in/on an actual course where the fall conditions were controlled to the point of acceptable risk? The basic riding course I took didn't really take any time on how to fall, maybe for good reason. The insurance probably doesn't exist, but if an academic argument could be made that it helped reduced injuries and medical costs they might buy into it if it was controlled enough. The military does some interesting training in preparation for unexpected accidents. Thoughts anyone?
-
WOULD YOU LIKE TO BE ABLE TO POST? REGISTER FOR COG MEMBERSHIP
All registration must be done through the club's main webpage: To register / join COG, click here
For instructions to convert to full membership, click here
-
Can't post after logging to the forum for the first time... Try Again - If you can't post in the forum, sign out of both the membership site and the forum and log in again. Make sure your COG membership is active and your browser allow cookies. If you still can't post, contact the COG IT guy at IT@Concours.org.
Falling......theoretically speaking crazy thoughts
- Thread starter opie6051
- Start date
I've never gone down as the rider, but a long time ago, I was riding passenger on a buddies bike and we did go down. It happens WAY TOO FAST. Once I was sliding I could sort of gather my thoughts and try to minimize the damage. One second everything is normal and 1/10th of a second later I'm sliding.
I'm not sure WillyP how it would work....more of an exploratory discussion....I certainly don't have the answers.......maybe there are fundamental techniques that hold true for a fall at any speed.....get your elbow armouring on the ground instead of your hands?.....I keep wondering how, and if I could get the armouring in my riding gear to be the contact points on the road.......
notsluggo
Crotch Rocket
I took judo lessons as a kid (long before karate came on the scene).
In judo, controlling your fall - and using the energy of the fall to minimize injury - are considered (roll through the fall - don't try stopping yourself).
I've never gone down at speed (knock wood) - but I have to believe, first and foremost - ATGATT and keeping your extremities retracted (arms in) would be a great start.
If I had a choice, I think I'd rather go down on my front - just feel like I'd have better "control" of the situation.
Finally - if you watch the racers when they biff - they let the energy of the slide run out before ever trying to control things.
Interesting topic - I'm sure this will be a fun thread to watch.
In judo, controlling your fall - and using the energy of the fall to minimize injury - are considered (roll through the fall - don't try stopping yourself).
I've never gone down at speed (knock wood) - but I have to believe, first and foremost - ATGATT and keeping your extremities retracted (arms in) would be a great start.
If I had a choice, I think I'd rather go down on my front - just feel like I'd have better "control" of the situation.
Finally - if you watch the racers when they biff - they let the energy of the slide run out before ever trying to control things.
Interesting topic - I'm sure this will be a fun thread to watch.
I don't know. The one time I slid down on the street, I hit the "oily patch" approaching a traffic light. The bike, a CB400 Hawk, kicked the rear wheel out to the left and I landed on the backpack I had on. I was moving slowly, but it was rainy and the bike and I were sliding along toward a Chevy Nova that had just turned toward me.
I remember kicking the bike toward the car and thinking maybe it'll stop when it hits the bike. I stopped, the bike stopped, and the car stopped. Very little damage done other than knocking the handlebars sideways and a couple of hip bruises. I rolled the bike up on the sidewalk and stood there shaking for a while. It's like someone said, "all is normal, then 1/10 second later, it's game on." No idea what I could have done other than to be thinking ahead. Which I didn't.
I remember kicking the bike toward the car and thinking maybe it'll stop when it hits the bike. I stopped, the bike stopped, and the car stopped. Very little damage done other than knocking the handlebars sideways and a couple of hip bruises. I rolled the bike up on the sidewalk and stood there shaking for a while. It's like someone said, "all is normal, then 1/10 second later, it's game on." No idea what I could have done other than to be thinking ahead. Which I didn't.
jimp
Sport Tourer
Having "crashed" a few times, I'll chime in here....
Generally speaking, if you're crashing you are not going to have time to react. True, on low speed low sides you might have some time to at least realize you're going down and sort of prepare yourself mentally, but there's really not much you can do. The physics of a crash are not like the stuff you learned in gymnastics, or judo, or whatever.
In high speed high sides or frontal collisions you'll have about enough time to think, "oh, this is gonna hurt," before you are slammed to the pavement. I'll show you x-rays of my ribs and collar bones if you think otherwise.
Instead of focusing your skills on how to crash, I suggest you'd be better off focusing your skills on avoiding crashes in the first place.
Just sayin'....
Generally speaking, if you're crashing you are not going to have time to react. True, on low speed low sides you might have some time to at least realize you're going down and sort of prepare yourself mentally, but there's really not much you can do. The physics of a crash are not like the stuff you learned in gymnastics, or judo, or whatever.
In high speed high sides or frontal collisions you'll have about enough time to think, "oh, this is gonna hurt," before you are slammed to the pavement. I'll show you x-rays of my ribs and collar bones if you think otherwise.
Instead of focusing your skills on how to crash, I suggest you'd be better off focusing your skills on avoiding crashes in the first place.
Just sayin'....
I've crashed a lot of times in 40 years and most times I slammed the pavement so quick there was not chance to thick or react. But twice I slid far enough that I tried to steer myself out of danger, once from hitting a stop sign post and another time on a three lane busy Interstate (70) I aimed for the white line to keep from getting run over. Don't know if it worked but I didn't hit the sign or get run over. I took tumbling in HS and a few times it seemed I rolled pretty good. Better than slamming your head. I often wonder what I would so if faced with a fast and sudden head on - could I leap up and over and save myself? Might work with a small car.
Steve in PA
Moped
I have actually practiced a defensive reaction just in case. I wear attgatt so I have practiced a simple move to limit severe life threatening exposure during a crash. My gear has armor at the elbows and shoulders and back. I have hip armor and knee armor and armored boots. I wear a full face helmet. My gloves provide knuckle protection. My chest and stomach however are not protected and are thus vulnerable to injury. My neck is also a soft point. What I can do to prevent injury to those areas goes a long way towards surviving a crash and limiting exposure to serious injury.
The simple move is as follows. I cross my arms across my chest and squeeze my helmet chin bar between my fists. I tuck my legs up as high as I can. These actions give me hard points all around and help immobilize my neck. The natural reaction is to reach out and try to break the fall. This leads to broken bones and torn ligaments and more road rash than is necessary.
I practice this move at least once a day. Like when I am bored at work sitting at my desk. I also demonstrate the move to any bikers whenever I happen to have the opportunity. I also talk about wearing atgatt. The usual response is is that the other biker is not planning on falling so the atgatt is not going to happen and I am not going to be able to deploy the move in time anyway.
I am here to testify that it really does work. At least it worked for me recently when I hit a deer at 55 mph on my c10. The deer died instantly and the connie is destroyed but I am alive and kicking after being thrown up and over the deer and down the road. I did deploy the move before I hit the road and although it was difficult maintaining the posture I did everything I could to do so until I came to a stop. I avoided most all road rash with only scuffed knees that are already healed up. I did get banged up and I am still sore here and there 4 weeks after the crash. As a side note I am 63 years old and I don't heal as fast as I used to. I credit the move with possibly preventing a broken neck and broken other bits.
The simple move is as follows. I cross my arms across my chest and squeeze my helmet chin bar between my fists. I tuck my legs up as high as I can. These actions give me hard points all around and help immobilize my neck. The natural reaction is to reach out and try to break the fall. This leads to broken bones and torn ligaments and more road rash than is necessary.
I practice this move at least once a day. Like when I am bored at work sitting at my desk. I also demonstrate the move to any bikers whenever I happen to have the opportunity. I also talk about wearing atgatt. The usual response is is that the other biker is not planning on falling so the atgatt is not going to happen and I am not going to be able to deploy the move in time anyway.
I am here to testify that it really does work. At least it worked for me recently when I hit a deer at 55 mph on my c10. The deer died instantly and the connie is destroyed but I am alive and kicking after being thrown up and over the deer and down the road. I did deploy the move before I hit the road and although it was difficult maintaining the posture I did everything I could to do so until I came to a stop. I avoided most all road rash with only scuffed knees that are already healed up. I did get banged up and I am still sore here and there 4 weeks after the crash. As a side note I am 63 years old and I don't heal as fast as I used to. I credit the move with possibly preventing a broken neck and broken other bits.
Blue Troll
Mini Bike
Wow! That's a very inspiring story Steve and good advice for us all. I always shudder when I see young kids on crotch rockets wearing flip flops, shorts and wife beaters. The road rash alone would kill them never mind the sudden stop. :'(
joblo1978
Road Bike
Don't think about falling. Like you said, it's wasted attention better spent on riding. If you're properly geared you don't have to be concerned about aligning it with the type of fall. Get away from the bike, it weighs alot more than you and has hot moving metal parts, and don't try to get up before you've stopped sliding.
laketrax
Crotch Rocket
JPavlis_CA said:
This is the same exact reason why I have never put frame sliders on any of my sportbikes. I also refuse to put bars or any other type of "crash protection" on my C14. I just don't like the thought of "planning on going down"...
If I ever crash at any sort of elevated speed, the last thing I'm going to be concerned with is if my bike is ok-
having logged decades of both street and track crashes, they tend to come in differing flavors.
i have had some front end fold/slides at the race track, where i time slows down, i could feel the bars leave my hands, and it seemed like 15 min between the pull of the bike from benieth me, and the crash actually happening. in those, i start off by cursing, but quickly i tuck in my hands, relax my body, and prep myself to slide-but those were at the racetrack where i knew i didnt have anything to worry about as far as sliding into anything.
then i have had crashes, like damp panted lines or a wet spot of anti freeze in the street, where i am looking up and turning, and in an instant i am on my side and shoulder stunned and shocked.
the one constant in all of my fall-downs, has been great gear. the gear has been the key in me getting up and walking away from each crash.
as has been said, and i believe it to the fullest. worry most about upgrading your software (BRAIN) and constantly improving your riding abilities to avoid as many crashes as you can. that should include taking advanced rider training, to include MSF, CLASS, Keith Code, and similar schools. DO NOT be intimidated just because they are held at race tracks or their costs. the $$ i have spent on these schools has surely saved my life and well being on countless occations over my 20+ years or riding. In one of my educational vids, Nick Inache, head instructor for the Yamaha Champions school, says 'people can step on a ski slope for the first time and cannot get on the mountain without having to take one lesson, but you can buy and ride a motorcycle without taking any rider education at all.' Never get complaicent about your abilities, improve your riding thru education.
but i will add to it...and some will even add to this, AGATT. I was taught by some high level guys at the very beginning of my riding life, buy good-->great gear rright off the bat. dont skimp. at some point it WILL save your life, your skin, your brain, your bones. the cliche $5 helmet on a $5 brain comes to mind. everytime i see a person riding, sportbike or cruiser or standard or whatever, in a tshirt or half helmet or no gloves, i have to calm myself and simply say 'its a free country, free to be stupid'
we all agree, crashing sucks, but also, crashing happens. but like others have said, i wouldnt worry so much about your reaction to a fall-down, but to worry much more about your abilities to stay out of those situations and then your reactions once those things initiate in front of you.
just my 2 cents
i have had some front end fold/slides at the race track, where i time slows down, i could feel the bars leave my hands, and it seemed like 15 min between the pull of the bike from benieth me, and the crash actually happening. in those, i start off by cursing, but quickly i tuck in my hands, relax my body, and prep myself to slide-but those were at the racetrack where i knew i didnt have anything to worry about as far as sliding into anything.
then i have had crashes, like damp panted lines or a wet spot of anti freeze in the street, where i am looking up and turning, and in an instant i am on my side and shoulder stunned and shocked.
the one constant in all of my fall-downs, has been great gear. the gear has been the key in me getting up and walking away from each crash.
as has been said, and i believe it to the fullest. worry most about upgrading your software (BRAIN) and constantly improving your riding abilities to avoid as many crashes as you can. that should include taking advanced rider training, to include MSF, CLASS, Keith Code, and similar schools. DO NOT be intimidated just because they are held at race tracks or their costs. the $$ i have spent on these schools has surely saved my life and well being on countless occations over my 20+ years or riding. In one of my educational vids, Nick Inache, head instructor for the Yamaha Champions school, says 'people can step on a ski slope for the first time and cannot get on the mountain without having to take one lesson, but you can buy and ride a motorcycle without taking any rider education at all.' Never get complaicent about your abilities, improve your riding thru education.
but i will add to it...and some will even add to this, AGATT. I was taught by some high level guys at the very beginning of my riding life, buy good-->great gear rright off the bat. dont skimp. at some point it WILL save your life, your skin, your brain, your bones. the cliche $5 helmet on a $5 brain comes to mind. everytime i see a person riding, sportbike or cruiser or standard or whatever, in a tshirt or half helmet or no gloves, i have to calm myself and simply say 'its a free country, free to be stupid'
we all agree, crashing sucks, but also, crashing happens. but like others have said, i wouldnt worry so much about your reaction to a fall-down, but to worry much more about your abilities to stay out of those situations and then your reactions once those things initiate in front of you.
just my 2 cents
Very good advice, Patrick.
As a street rider only, I believe the first step towards surviving a crash is to plan it before it happens. That means doing a mental simulation of the oily patch before I enter the turn. I know this is not sport type riding, but simply put, if you do sport riding you run the risk of sport crashing which is mostly that happens-too-fast stuff.
There's a video from Australia illustrating the point...
http://youtu.be/Wnx20F51S_E
I often try to keep the bike perpendicular to the road, including slowing to the speed posted on the yellow signs. Coupled with that is the thinking ahead to the point of sliding basically straight ahead since nature doesn't like turning things as a rule, so in a turn or before one if you pick the time you go down you choose your path during the slide. similar mental predictions affect choices of how to ride in heavy traffic. I haven't tried crashing in traffic yet but I avoid cutting off trucks & cars, stay out of blind spots, avoid tailgating, all that stuff you know in the back of your mind that would be in the front as soon as a crash became a reality.
One more situation is loss of tire pressure. So far it hasn't happened to me but I have left work at 5:30 AM on an underinflated tire and with no working air pump nearby. A flat rear tire apparently loses nearly all traction. I had an 800cc cruiser and the rear was sliding out sideways on the straights just from the crown in the road. So, there could be an unprovoked crash, it could happen unexpectedly, and you would be left with ATTGATT.
As a street rider only, I believe the first step towards surviving a crash is to plan it before it happens. That means doing a mental simulation of the oily patch before I enter the turn. I know this is not sport type riding, but simply put, if you do sport riding you run the risk of sport crashing which is mostly that happens-too-fast stuff.
There's a video from Australia illustrating the point...
http://youtu.be/Wnx20F51S_E
I often try to keep the bike perpendicular to the road, including slowing to the speed posted on the yellow signs. Coupled with that is the thinking ahead to the point of sliding basically straight ahead since nature doesn't like turning things as a rule, so in a turn or before one if you pick the time you go down you choose your path during the slide. similar mental predictions affect choices of how to ride in heavy traffic. I haven't tried crashing in traffic yet but I avoid cutting off trucks & cars, stay out of blind spots, avoid tailgating, all that stuff you know in the back of your mind that would be in the front as soon as a crash became a reality.
One more situation is loss of tire pressure. So far it hasn't happened to me but I have left work at 5:30 AM on an underinflated tire and with no working air pump nearby. A flat rear tire apparently loses nearly all traction. I had an 800cc cruiser and the rear was sliding out sideways on the straights just from the crown in the road. So, there could be an unprovoked crash, it could happen unexpectedly, and you would be left with ATTGATT.
RideBellChain
Street Cruiser
Here's a better solution: Practice NOT falling off.
Practice the following:
Emergency stops while turning
Emergency "avoidance"
Emergency braking from normal cruising speeds
#2 is the most important, and you MUST train your eyes to look where you need to go, not what your brain is telling you that you're going to run into.
Practice the following:
Emergency stops while turning
Emergency "avoidance"
Emergency braking from normal cruising speeds
#2 is the most important, and you MUST train your eyes to look where you need to go, not what your brain is telling you that you're going to run into.
jimp
Sport Tourer
Ocean said:
Expounding on the general consensus to improve your skills.... my answer is YES.
There's a 30 mile stretch of Hiway 155 from Lake Isabella that goes through the southern end of the Sierras over to the central valley. This particular stretch is just one curve after another, almost no straights and the few that there are give just a moments rest. It was a 90+ degree day and I was just motoring along - third gear, 50mph, throttle on, throttle off, repeat. After doing this seemingly forever, I had a nice rhythm going. Suddenly, with no warning and no change in the road surface, my front tire washed out on a right hander. Two things happened in the next five seconds. First, my conscious mind said this is going to hurt, then started doing an inventory of what was about to break and how much it was going to cost. Meanwhile, my subconscious had dialed in more throttle, pushed harder on the inside bar and had basically tried to drive out of it. Pushing into the slide while applying more gas went from tucking the front to lifting it. Next thing I knew the bike was sliding both wheels, but I wasn't crashing. I straightened up, slowed down and did an inventory.
I can't count the times I've slid the front, the rear, both at the same time, locked the front on braking without going down.... yeah, it sounds like I'm bragging, but I have gone down... and I've also learned how to avoid going down. I've deliberately driven off the road to avoid crashing, gotten off the saddle to avoid a horse trailer in my lane in a curve... with experience, you do whatever it takes.
It comes down to miles, risk acceptance and training. The more miles you do, the better you'll be able to adapt to changing situations. The more training you get, the better your skills will be. As for risk, that's up to to decide how much risk you are willing to accept. Some people get exposed to risk and fold... others find a way to take it in and accept it.
As for controlling a fall... in most cases you don't have a prayer because it will happen too fast. Maybe a gymnast or para-jumper might be able to tuck and roll.... butt.... I had a high side that slammed me to the ground so fast I didn't even know what happened till I was sliding along the ground.
Bruiser
Sport Tourer
I've only gone down once. Was coming off base one night, and I saw a small deer about the size of a St Bernard standing on the side walk. I gave it a whole lotta room, and I was only traveling about 15 mph, but that little turd looked at me and jumped right into me, knocking me over. He rolled, got up and ran. I had a bent headlight mount and scratched elbow. So, is there time to think how to fall? Even at the speed I was going, it happened so fast, there was no time to think of such things.
Well.................the motorcycle gods must certainly have been clinking their glasses, chuckling and slapping each other on the back when they gave me the ironic opportunity to answer my own question. .......My 2010 Neptune Blue Japanese girlfriend and I went down on some post snow plowing sand last Friday. Since I coerced others to relive their wrecks in this thread, I feel obligated to do the same. I was on my way to the dealer to get the TPMS sensors replaced as they were both dead. Enjoying the ride on a back road at about 40mph, my mind drifted (big mistake) a bit and I found myself toward the side of the road where there was deep sand from snow plowing. Keeping it straight through the sand was not an option as that path would end up through a fence and in a yard (this decision happened quickly). Instinctively my hand and foot went to the brakes but I had the presence of mind not to apply them yet, I leaned a bit and tried to test the ability to turn the bike back into the lane. Quickly glancing up there was a fence looming, and I had to do something, so I gently hit both brakes. The front end slipped free and I could tell I was headed down for a low side fall. This all happened slowly enough in a slow slide that I was able to give up trying to keep her upright and decide to bail out away from the bike, which I did. So, I guess this accident happened slowly enough that some time was available to make some real fast decisions as opposed to more high speed accidents where things happen much more quickly. On the way down things sped up considerably. I didn't have the presence of mind that Steve did to get into a defensive ball and I hit at an angle feet first and momentum whipped the rest of my body down into the pavement and my shoulder and helmet took a hard hit. I immediately began tumbling, not head to foot, but side to side until the vector forces evened out and I slid flat on the road. Number of tumbles?.....my wild guess is between 5 and 12 (it was a blur). Distance slid?.....30-50 feet. Like others in this thread I did feel helpless once I hit. The tumble period totally disoriented me so when I entered the slide I didn't have the presence of mind to get up on my armored areas (one of my questions in my original post). Fate and protective equipment design took over. Fate was incredibly kind to me; equipment design saved me hospital time. My mind was just not able to ever catch up to the rapidly unfolding events once I jumped free of the bike. I ended the slide on my side and my stunned first observation were the sand grains 6 inches in front of my nose. While looking at those grains of sand my health self assessment began immediately and I was encouraged that there was no immediate big pain. As my wits gathered I stood up and was euphoric that everything seemed ok except some pain in my left forfinger and thumb (fractured knuckle and torn ligament). A "winning the lottery moment" of OMG I'm ok! The guy driving his truck behind me came running up and shouted "are you ok?, I thought you were dead"! He told the cops that I laughed and replied "did you see that?" My brain saturated with adrenalin.... go figure. My girlfriend was not so lucky. Most of the plastic on the left side (low side hit) was shredded. Wiring hanging everywhere. Left headlight obliterated along with left side saddle bag. Hundreds of small, and a few large chunks of plastic pieces picked up. Other stuff too. Which brings me to the following:
Lessons learned: Don't let your mind wander too far even on back roads; now and then think about what you would do in various situations. Presence of mind early in my accident helped me prevent the bike from pinning or crushing me. Maybe preparation will kick in and help when you need it. Buy the very best protective gear you can. My gear literally saved me months in the hospital and possibly very serious injury, as well as lost income from not being able to work. My gear was shredded in many spots but never all the way through. The back, shoulder, knee and elbow locations shredded through to the underlying hard plastic armor, but no further. Thank goodness I wore it all that day! My gloves also shredded but nowhere all the way through. Please wear full protective gear every......single....time....you.....ride!!!
Post wreck: You don't see much in the popular literature about post wreck. I admit to being a bit rattled about it all. As I write this I have a bit of driving anxiety. The worst part is I did this to myself by not riding safely mentally. I took way too much for granted about being on a back road I'd driven hundreds of times. It would be easier to deal with if someone else ran me off the road. I got back into motorcycling as a bucket list kind of thing. Earlier in life motorcycling played a huge part in getting through some big bumps in life and reigniting that passion has been wonderful. Knowing what I know now would I do it all over again? !!OH YEAH!!
Lessons learned: Don't let your mind wander too far even on back roads; now and then think about what you would do in various situations. Presence of mind early in my accident helped me prevent the bike from pinning or crushing me. Maybe preparation will kick in and help when you need it. Buy the very best protective gear you can. My gear literally saved me months in the hospital and possibly very serious injury, as well as lost income from not being able to work. My gear was shredded in many spots but never all the way through. The back, shoulder, knee and elbow locations shredded through to the underlying hard plastic armor, but no further. Thank goodness I wore it all that day! My gloves also shredded but nowhere all the way through. Please wear full protective gear every......single....time....you.....ride!!!
Post wreck: You don't see much in the popular literature about post wreck. I admit to being a bit rattled about it all. As I write this I have a bit of driving anxiety. The worst part is I did this to myself by not riding safely mentally. I took way too much for granted about being on a back road I'd driven hundreds of times. It would be easier to deal with if someone else ran me off the road. I got back into motorcycling as a bucket list kind of thing. Earlier in life motorcycling played a huge part in getting through some big bumps in life and reigniting that passion has been wonderful. Knowing what I know now would I do it all over again? !!OH YEAH!!
Sorry to have to hear your answer on the subject, glad you got out with minimal injury.
Bikes are 'things' and 'things' can be replaced, You can not.
I completely appreciate wearing all the gear, and do so, or I don't ride.
Riding a motorcycle is much more attentively 'intense' than driving a car. On long rides,
I find I need a rest at every tank, to refresh the mind so I can keep my focus when riding.
Staying sharp IS very important, because it seems EVERYTHING is out to get you... even
sand. If my mind starts to wander, I pull over and rest... I've done it a few times, just riding
home from work (a 40 minute ride). No shame in that.
Get well, get riding when you're ready. Most importantly... Ride Safe!!
Bikes are 'things' and 'things' can be replaced, You can not.
I completely appreciate wearing all the gear, and do so, or I don't ride.
Riding a motorcycle is much more attentively 'intense' than driving a car. On long rides,
I find I need a rest at every tank, to refresh the mind so I can keep my focus when riding.
Staying sharp IS very important, because it seems EVERYTHING is out to get you... even
sand. If my mind starts to wander, I pull over and rest... I've done it a few times, just riding
home from work (a 40 minute ride). No shame in that.
Get well, get riding when you're ready. Most importantly... Ride Safe!!
I cant speak on falling on my C14...i havnt done that yet, thank goodness. And that bike is so big, i wouldnt want to.
however...
being a former racer and current trackday rider, i have fallen my fair share. When you crash, it does seem to slow way down as it occurs. you learn to see whats coming at you, feel the pain, or not, and realize what happened to you and the bike within seconds. one thing that i have learned to do, especially on a front end low-side, is once you hit the ground, and feel yourself start to slide, you put out your hands to get flat...keeping yourself from rolling. once you start to tumble, things can get really painful really quickly. also, once you hit the ground, if you arent on your back, then you start to try and tuck in. this will keep your feet and hands from rolling and slapping on the pavement, which also can cause some really serious issues once you stop.
All in all, however, falling 'the right way' takes practice, and who wants to practice THAT too often.
my best advice - rider training and education. Try to take as many rider training corses as you can afford. the better rider/pilot you are, the less you will come to situations where falling is your only option. you'd be surprised how much harder you can break, how much more you can lean a bike over in a turn, or how much faster you can swerve to miss whatever it is you think would be the cause of a fall, that you felt was unavoidable.
CLASSrides.com, californiasuperbikeschool.com, cornerspeed.com, and many many more...you dont have to be on a sportbike to go to a school being held at a racetrack and learn advanced riding techniques that will make riding more enjoyable and WILL save your life in the long run. :great:
edit: wow, looks like i answered this two yrs ago...ive been here a while...old age is a mutha
however...
being a former racer and current trackday rider, i have fallen my fair share. When you crash, it does seem to slow way down as it occurs. you learn to see whats coming at you, feel the pain, or not, and realize what happened to you and the bike within seconds. one thing that i have learned to do, especially on a front end low-side, is once you hit the ground, and feel yourself start to slide, you put out your hands to get flat...keeping yourself from rolling. once you start to tumble, things can get really painful really quickly. also, once you hit the ground, if you arent on your back, then you start to try and tuck in. this will keep your feet and hands from rolling and slapping on the pavement, which also can cause some really serious issues once you stop.
All in all, however, falling 'the right way' takes practice, and who wants to practice THAT too often.
my best advice - rider training and education. Try to take as many rider training corses as you can afford. the better rider/pilot you are, the less you will come to situations where falling is your only option. you'd be surprised how much harder you can break, how much more you can lean a bike over in a turn, or how much faster you can swerve to miss whatever it is you think would be the cause of a fall, that you felt was unavoidable.
CLASSrides.com, californiasuperbikeschool.com, cornerspeed.com, and many many more...you dont have to be on a sportbike to go to a school being held at a racetrack and learn advanced riding techniques that will make riding more enjoyable and WILL save your life in the long run. :great:
edit: wow, looks like i answered this two yrs ago...ive been here a while...old age is a mutha
Better to practice prevention and wear safety gear, than practice how to wreck.
Long ago in my irresponsible youth, we drove our water-ski boats like idiots. These boats could go about 45 mph on the water. Ever see what happens to a person when they come out of their ski's or tube at 30+ mph? They tumble across the water with their arms and legs thrown out by the forces caused by centripetal acceleration.
Having been that person a number of times, I've tried to pull my arms and legs in...simply not possible - there's way too much energy in you as a rotating system to overcome.
Just an example of how much energy there is even at 30 mph.
Long ago in my irresponsible youth, we drove our water-ski boats like idiots. These boats could go about 45 mph on the water. Ever see what happens to a person when they come out of their ski's or tube at 30+ mph? They tumble across the water with their arms and legs thrown out by the forces caused by centripetal acceleration.
Having been that person a number of times, I've tried to pull my arms and legs in...simply not possible - there's way too much energy in you as a rotating system to overcome.
Just an example of how much energy there is even at 30 mph.
willyp
Iron Butt
Glad you are ok, don't beat yourself up to much about not paying attention, it happens to the best of us. But do know you've learned a lesson. Spring and fall can be dangerous, with sand in the spring and leaves in the fall. Many years ago I went flying over the handlebars after riding off the road on a leaf covered curve. Fortunatly the large tree I hit had been cut down, my head certainly would not have gone through it so easily if it hadn't.
Ocean,
Thanks for starting this thread and thanks very much for the recent "update."
I've learned a lot from it. Glad you're OK!
(And, I just spent what I thought was WAY TOO MUCH on some armored gloves and boots (that I read about in Motorcycle Consumer News this month; and now I feel a little better about it.)
I've never gone down--yet--knock on my wooden head, but here's a weird story: Back about 1982, a friend in Tucson went for a motorcycle trip with another friend up California's Highway 1. My friend was on his vintage BMW. He and his friend decided to pass a slow moving car, and my friend was in the lead. Maybe 40 mph. Just as he was passing it, it turned left in front of him, headed for some tourist spot off to the left. No turn signal. Turned out the occupants were foreign tourists, just sightseeing and doing the oblivious tourist thing and they decided to turn in to the place. My friend somehow stood up on the pegs just as his bike slammed in to the side of the car broadside and he went up over the car, did maybe one somersault, and landed on his feet way down the road on the other side. Continued to somersault a bit, but he didn't have a scratch on him, and when I saw him a week afterwards, no physical problems at all.
He said time definitely slowed down for him, and he saw or felt clearly what was about to happen in that split second; thought he was going to die right there and knew it ahead of time. But he must have launched himself at least a little, over that car. Weird, eh?
Thanks for starting this thread and thanks very much for the recent "update."
I've learned a lot from it. Glad you're OK!
(And, I just spent what I thought was WAY TOO MUCH on some armored gloves and boots (that I read about in Motorcycle Consumer News this month; and now I feel a little better about it.)
I've never gone down--yet--knock on my wooden head, but here's a weird story: Back about 1982, a friend in Tucson went for a motorcycle trip with another friend up California's Highway 1. My friend was on his vintage BMW. He and his friend decided to pass a slow moving car, and my friend was in the lead. Maybe 40 mph. Just as he was passing it, it turned left in front of him, headed for some tourist spot off to the left. No turn signal. Turned out the occupants were foreign tourists, just sightseeing and doing the oblivious tourist thing and they decided to turn in to the place. My friend somehow stood up on the pegs just as his bike slammed in to the side of the car broadside and he went up over the car, did maybe one somersault, and landed on his feet way down the road on the other side. Continued to somersault a bit, but he didn't have a scratch on him, and when I saw him a week afterwards, no physical problems at all.
He said time definitely slowed down for him, and he saw or felt clearly what was about to happen in that split second; thought he was going to die right there and knew it ahead of time. But he must have launched himself at least a little, over that car. Weird, eh?
Blue Troll
Mini Bike
I've always thought that was a big safety advantage of sport bikes and sport / touring bikes. I don't know how many of you have ridden cruisers but the seated position on a cruiser extends your legs and knees out in front of you thus making it impossible to stand up and even try to jump off your bike. That and the massive windshield most cruisers have doesn't help either.
acisroc said:
SO TRUE!
Got pulled forward out of my skis once, at speed. Flew like Superman for a couple seconds. Unfortunately when my hands hit the water they stopped while my body kept going..,.same with my head. Slammed my chin to my chest and knocked me out. Came to under water about 6-8 feet...I remember thinking to myself "I could swim to the top, or let the jacket take me". That was a LOOONG 2-3 seconds to hold my breath. My friends had to pull me out - couldn't lift my arms.
Fast Forward 25 years and my neck is STILL farked up and hurts all the time. Ah...stupidity of youth.
I've been and seen quite a few people skipping across the top of the water. Fun when it's not you!
)
On target about Falling....theoretically speaking crazy thoughts:
First time I took my new (then) young girlfriend to whom I have now been married to for 35 years, water skiing, brash young ME was going to show out and impress her by skiing up to a grassy bank and stepping out of the skis.
I miscalculated my speed by THAT MUCH <fingers held 1/4" apart> and hit the bank at about 5-10 mph.
ort
When I saw I wasn't stopping and knew the water was 6" deep, I crouched, held up my hands, and did a forward roll UP the short stubby grassy slope head over heels out of the skis to a stop.
Yeah, you know..... she was impressed.) (She married me anyway.) But I never tried that again. Scratches all over and darned lucky. :-[
First time I took my new (then) young girlfriend to whom I have now been married to for 35 years, water skiing, brash young ME was going to show out and impress her by skiing up to a grassy bank and stepping out of the skis.
I miscalculated my speed by THAT MUCH <fingers held 1/4" apart> and hit the bank at about 5-10 mph.
ort
When I saw I wasn't stopping and knew the water was 6" deep, I crouched, held up my hands, and did a forward roll UP the short stubby grassy slope head over heels out of the skis to a stop.
Yeah, you know..... she was impressed.
) (She married me anyway.) But I never tried that again. Scratches all over and darned lucky. :-[
joblo1978
Road Bike
I had a low speed lowside after a bit of too much front brake. I had just gotten back on the bike, feeling a bit too secure, my head wasn't in the ride, I felt a little too good, and overreacted to a quick situation. A few things stood out, pretty much in this order, and trying to control my fall wasn't one of them. This is on my 2009 EX650.
1. I felt the front tire lose traction, a wiggle in the bars, it may have caught for a split second, but it was so fast I couldn't react. This was at about 30-35 MPH.
2. The bike may have still been underneath be, but it was no longer between my legs. I was going down feet, knees, hands, chest. You think to yourself "holy s*** I'm wrecking my bike"
3. I heard the sound of the topcase slam against the pavement followed by metal sliding across the pavement, likely my pegs, bar ends, and frame sliders. You hear the plastic fairings too.
4. I finally got some orientation when I saw the crosswalk stripes as I was sliding over them on my chest. I didn't see yellow, so I hope I'm still in my lane. At that point I'm hoping the vehicle that spooked me isn't about to run me over. I couldn't tilt my head high enough to see where I was going. The palm sliders on my gloves are working, I can hear them, the sound of Alpinestars textile, and my jeans rubbing the dark hot bitumen. I'm starting to feel heat in a few areas.
5. I stop, I'm alive, I can walk, I get up, hobble to the curb, and try to take everything that happened in. Man that really sucked.
Really, it happens so fast, and it's disorienting. When you come off the bike, Newton and his laws of physics are now in control, and all you're left with is the gear your chose, or chose not to wear. Moto GP guys can slide a looooong way, chances are you won't slide that long. You're not going that fast and you don't have that runoff, probably not wearing that gear either.
Even if you CHOSE and calculated a jump off the back of a moving pickup truck at 45-50 MPH in full gear you would have extremely little to no way of controlling anything that happened to you after your impact. And if you think you can give it a shot, just make sure to record it for all of us to see.
1. I felt the front tire lose traction, a wiggle in the bars, it may have caught for a split second, but it was so fast I couldn't react. This was at about 30-35 MPH.
2. The bike may have still been underneath be, but it was no longer between my legs. I was going down feet, knees, hands, chest. You think to yourself "holy s*** I'm wrecking my bike"
3. I heard the sound of the topcase slam against the pavement followed by metal sliding across the pavement, likely my pegs, bar ends, and frame sliders. You hear the plastic fairings too.
4. I finally got some orientation when I saw the crosswalk stripes as I was sliding over them on my chest. I didn't see yellow, so I hope I'm still in my lane. At that point I'm hoping the vehicle that spooked me isn't about to run me over. I couldn't tilt my head high enough to see where I was going. The palm sliders on my gloves are working, I can hear them, the sound of Alpinestars textile, and my jeans rubbing the dark hot bitumen. I'm starting to feel heat in a few areas.
5. I stop, I'm alive, I can walk, I get up, hobble to the curb, and try to take everything that happened in. Man that really sucked.
Really, it happens so fast, and it's disorienting. When you come off the bike, Newton and his laws of physics are now in control, and all you're left with is the gear your chose, or chose not to wear. Moto GP guys can slide a looooong way, chances are you won't slide that long. You're not going that fast and you don't have that runoff, probably not wearing that gear either.
Even if you CHOSE and calculated a jump off the back of a moving pickup truck at 45-50 MPH in full gear you would have extremely little to no way of controlling anything that happened to you after your impact. And if you think you can give it a shot, just make sure to record it for all of us to see.
LessPaul
Street Cruiser
I've never taken a fall at more than 10-12 mph on a bike, so I really can't speak to that part of this discussion.
But I've been water skiing since age 9 or 10 and I got pretty good at it. I'd slalom at 35mph when the water allowed it. Used to compete (amateur) on courses. Learned to barefoot and ramp jump when I was part of a ski show. Best slalom run (in practice) was 4 buoys at 22' off, and 34mph. I was a hard, aggressive skier and have taken a number of high speed falls.
There is NO controlling how you fall. But I will say I've never hurt myself skiing. I've come up pretty dazed, and with half the lake behind my eyes, and my ears pounding. But I've never "hurt" myself, per se. Water gets pretty hard at 45-50mph, but not asphalt hard. Or as abrasive.
But I've been water skiing since age 9 or 10 and I got pretty good at it. I'd slalom at 35mph when the water allowed it. Used to compete (amateur) on courses. Learned to barefoot and ramp jump when I was part of a ski show. Best slalom run (in practice) was 4 buoys at 22' off, and 34mph. I was a hard, aggressive skier and have taken a number of high speed falls.
There is NO controlling how you fall. But I will say I've never hurt myself skiing. I've come up pretty dazed, and with half the lake behind my eyes, and my ears pounding. But I've never "hurt" myself, per se. Water gets pretty hard at 45-50mph, but not asphalt hard. Or as abrasive.
Flat-spot
Sport Tourer
Tim, when you are in a slalom run like you just described, what would you estimate your peak speed when crossing the wake? I've watched guys like you "lay it out there", and I'm thinking you've got to be doing twice the boat speed in between the extreme accel.-decel. at the bouys.
Well, lots of thoughts here for sure. Can one control the fall?
Plenty I agree with...
No two crash scenarios are the same.
Centrifugal force rules.
ATGATT is your friend. Your best friend when things go south. Sometimes your only friend.
The heavier the bike, the faster stuff happens and the less the bike responds to your heroic efforts (usually).
I've done a great deal of dirt bike racing in my life and consequently I've done a great deal of dirt bike crashing... Backwards, sideways, low side, high side, flying W, over the bars, etc. I've crashed enough I should either be dead, much worse crippled (broken back in 1980), a expert at crashing, or a expert at riding.
At John Desoto motocross school in the 70s he made us crash... A lot. His point was teaching us not to be afraid to crash. Fear shuts down your ability to process and ride. And you don't quit riding until you're no longer on the bike. I still use that thinking today, but I promise... Going down at 70 on Connie has little similarity to going down on a 200 pound dirt bike. The heavier bike will body slam you like a rag doll.
I still won't give up riding the bike until removed from it, it's more likely with Connie you will be removed more quickly and with more prejudice.
I have saved a few near accidents on Connie, been just plain blessed a couple of other times, and somehow managed to stay upright and alive when my own actions were NOT the grace that saved me. My last accident really beat me up (stoppied over and slammed at speed trying to "emergency stop" to miss a Prius from slightly over the ton). Probably more damage psycologically than physically though I got to spend six months in a wheel chair thinking about how I could have saved it. The only positive answer I have is that ABS brakes might have pulled me out of it.
Next week that will be three years ago and I still don't know what would have been the best thing other than NOT have been going so fast in an area in which the scenario could have evolved as it did. It was my fault she pulled out on me. It was my fault I was in that situation. THOSE are the things we need to avoid. Inviting that crash by giving it opportunity.
The only real control we have is to maintain awareness and ride defensively (which can, but not necessarily, mean aggressively... not recklessly). Riding dirt bikes is probably the best training I can think of. Learning to slide (though completely different than on the street) will at least suppress any panic mode trying to take effect. If you do go down in the dirt it's rarely that serious and teaches you new things. No dirt bikes are not like street bikes, but practicing there will help your mental preparedness. Just my.02 but I'll just say wear your gear and watch out for everyone and everything.
Plenty I agree with...
No two crash scenarios are the same.
Centrifugal force rules.
ATGATT is your friend. Your best friend when things go south. Sometimes your only friend.
The heavier the bike, the faster stuff happens and the less the bike responds to your heroic efforts (usually).
I've done a great deal of dirt bike racing in my life and consequently I've done a great deal of dirt bike crashing... Backwards, sideways, low side, high side, flying W, over the bars, etc. I've crashed enough I should either be dead, much worse crippled (broken back in 1980), a expert at crashing, or a expert at riding.
At John Desoto motocross school in the 70s he made us crash... A lot. His point was teaching us not to be afraid to crash. Fear shuts down your ability to process and ride. And you don't quit riding until you're no longer on the bike. I still use that thinking today, but I promise... Going down at 70 on Connie has little similarity to going down on a 200 pound dirt bike. The heavier bike will body slam you like a rag doll.
I still won't give up riding the bike until removed from it, it's more likely with Connie you will be removed more quickly and with more prejudice.
I have saved a few near accidents on Connie, been just plain blessed a couple of other times, and somehow managed to stay upright and alive when my own actions were NOT the grace that saved me. My last accident really beat me up (stoppied over and slammed at speed trying to "emergency stop" to miss a Prius from slightly over the ton). Probably more damage psycologically than physically though I got to spend six months in a wheel chair thinking about how I could have saved it. The only positive answer I have is that ABS brakes might have pulled me out of it.
Next week that will be three years ago and I still don't know what would have been the best thing other than NOT have been going so fast in an area in which the scenario could have evolved as it did. It was my fault she pulled out on me. It was my fault I was in that situation. THOSE are the things we need to avoid. Inviting that crash by giving it opportunity.
The only real control we have is to maintain awareness and ride defensively (which can, but not necessarily, mean aggressively... not recklessly). Riding dirt bikes is probably the best training I can think of. Learning to slide (though completely different than on the street) will at least suppress any panic mode trying to take effect. If you do go down in the dirt it's rarely that serious and teaches you new things. No dirt bikes are not like street bikes, but practicing there will help your mental preparedness. Just my.02 but I'll just say wear your gear and watch out for everyone and everything.
LessPaul
Street Cruiser
I'm just guessing, but if the boat is doing 35mph, it sure feels like I'm doing 50 or so. I don't think it's double. There's probably some mathematical equation to determine it, but I don't know what it is.
But that, right there...those cross wake slingshots.....THAT'S the thrill of skiing! :motonoises:
But that, right there...those cross wake slingshots.....THAT'S the thrill of skiing! :motonoises:
LessPaul said:
Trying to get my head around the motion, BUT I think since you're tied with a rope to the boat, unless you are passing the boat your forward velocity is the same as the boat...BUT you also have velocity in another axis - lateral to the boat. So your net speed (adding the two vectors) could be greater than the boat - though Physics is 20+ years ago, I don't remember if that's a proper sum to make, other than to calculate the total potential/kinetic energy in a system (you).
It certainly feels faster when you cross the wake, I'm guessing that's centripetal acceleration (rope creates a pendulum). So you experience an "acceleration" (in it's physics definition - rate of change) caused by your constant change in direction as caused by the arc of your path.
Ugg...ma brain hurts. Any math geeks/engineers out there care to chime in?...like I said,-been a long time so I may be using terms incorrectly.
JimBob, the acceleration is real and YOUR forward motion speed is increased though it is not the same direction as the boat. You can easily pass the boat coming from the other side, but you need to keep tension on the rope in order to maintain skiing so you slow yourself and use your arms to maintain as little slack as possible. It's hard to go slower than the boat, but very easy to go faster. It's the same effect as a space ship breaking orbit around a body by using the slingshot effect to gain speed. You come out the other side with increased speed. The tighter you pull against the radius the greater the accel.
UncleRob
Scooter
My only advise on what to do in a crash is to protect your hands. When you are falling, you want to break your fall, and when you are sliding, you have a tendency to put your hands out to try and control the slide. Breaking your fall has a tendency to break your wrist or collarbone. Controlling your slide will give you bad road rash unless you have a really good pair of gloves. Pull your hands in under your chin (if you can) and ride the storm out. I used to crash a lot but I have decided that I just can't do that anymore. You can't control everything but you can be an active defensive driver. Pay attention, look out for road obstacles (painted lines, sand, gravel), and asume that the cagers aren't looking at you.
P.S. My last close call was my fault. I was making a left turn on a four lane road and there was a silver car waiting to make a left in the opposite direction. There was another silver car coming towards me in the left hand lane. He visually blended into the left turning car and I made my sweeping left turn right in front of him. Luckily there was just enough room to squeeze by. Scared the crap out of both of us. It is not worth the few seconds that you will gain to put yourself in that situation. Slow down and double check before you turn.
P.S. My last close call was my fault. I was making a left turn on a four lane road and there was a silver car waiting to make a left in the opposite direction. There was another silver car coming towards me in the left hand lane. He visually blended into the left turning car and I made my sweeping left turn right in front of him. Luckily there was just enough room to squeeze by. Scared the crap out of both of us. It is not worth the few seconds that you will gain to put yourself in that situation. Slow down and double check before you turn.
[quote author=Wikipedia] (waterskiing, slalom)
... the Pro men can reach speeds in excess of 116 kilometres per hour (72 mph) and each turn will generally generate around 4 g of force...[/quote]
May 14 I dropped my bike again, at low speed, a 'low side'. I was wearing ear plugs and don't recall hearing anything except the over-revving of the engine which seems to happen on every slide, even though I was braking or just released brakes to make the turn. I had started to take the left fork which turned out to be eastbound, I braked hard and when I was slow enough I tried to cross the painted cusp zone to take the right fork west. There was leftover sand from the winter, I think, and that made me slide when I should have swerved. I was wearing a mesh jacket with all the pads in, full face helmet, workman's gloves, and fire-hose pants. The pants scuffed through a little giving me a scraped knee. I got a bruise on my hip, a shoulder ache and a slightly jammed left thumb. In the event I thought worse things might have happened but they didn't.
I was on I-84 in Danbury, CT, on the service road since I had just stopped to call home & say I'd be late. It was about 5:15 pm as I pulled into traffic hurriedly when the road had been deserted just seconds before, but, stupid is as stupid does, right? I had left the house about 5:30 AM to go to a trade show in Springfield, MA, taking the scenic route up and nearly getting hypothermia from the 40 degree morning weather. I left Springfield at 2:30 PM without sitting much at the show, just walking around all the vendors. So Amtrak had just had its derailment thing and traffic was horrible, with accidents and backups etc. I went around Hartford as well as I could without GPS, getting to I-84 and Danbury at 5.
2 guys stopped to help, a young looking sport biker and a minivan driver. It's embarrassing getting help lifting the bike but it's expedient for a fast recovery. With the bike up the minivan took off. The sport bike guy wanted to do a lot of straightening but I bungied & packed & got out of there. If a truck did what I did we'd be squished in that spot.
Coming south in Westchester there was another 1 or 2 hour jam, 2 lanes closed for a pile of dirt & debris in the road. That morning when my wife told me to take the car instead of the bike, I told her if I got tired I'd go to the movies. I should have kept that promise!
... the Pro men can reach speeds in excess of 116 kilometres per hour (72 mph) and each turn will generally generate around 4 g of force...[/quote]
May 14 I dropped my bike again, at low speed, a 'low side'. I was wearing ear plugs and don't recall hearing anything except the over-revving of the engine which seems to happen on every slide, even though I was braking or just released brakes to make the turn. I had started to take the left fork which turned out to be eastbound, I braked hard and when I was slow enough I tried to cross the painted cusp zone to take the right fork west. There was leftover sand from the winter, I think, and that made me slide when I should have swerved. I was wearing a mesh jacket with all the pads in, full face helmet, workman's gloves, and fire-hose pants. The pants scuffed through a little giving me a scraped knee. I got a bruise on my hip, a shoulder ache and a slightly jammed left thumb. In the event I thought worse things might have happened but they didn't.
I was on I-84 in Danbury, CT, on the service road since I had just stopped to call home & say I'd be late. It was about 5:15 pm as I pulled into traffic hurriedly when the road had been deserted just seconds before, but, stupid is as stupid does, right? I had left the house about 5:30 AM to go to a trade show in Springfield, MA, taking the scenic route up and nearly getting hypothermia from the 40 degree morning weather. I left Springfield at 2:30 PM without sitting much at the show, just walking around all the vendors. So Amtrak had just had its derailment thing and traffic was horrible, with accidents and backups etc. I went around Hartford as well as I could without GPS, getting to I-84 and Danbury at 5.
2 guys stopped to help, a young looking sport biker and a minivan driver. It's embarrassing getting help lifting the bike but it's expedient for a fast recovery. With the bike up the minivan took off. The sport bike guy wanted to do a lot of straightening but I bungied & packed & got out of there. If a truck did what I did we'd be squished in that spot.
Coming south in Westchester there was another 1 or 2 hour jam, 2 lanes closed for a pile of dirt & debris in the road. That morning when my wife told me to take the car instead of the bike, I told her if I got tired I'd go to the movies. I should have kept that promise!
A late reply, but a couple points:
1. BRILLIANT Quote from Rev: "Inviting that crash by giving it opportunity." By god that needs to be on a poster or used in driving classes.
2. Regarding the skier's speed. Having sat on this for months now, I agree Rev, the more lateral a skiers motion, the higher his net speed (sum of the two vectors, boat forward+skier lateral). The skier will almost always be traveling forward at the same speed as the boat (length of rope doesn't change, so until the angle between skier and boat exceeds 45*, skier's forward velocity is same as boat). But the skier also has a lateral velocity along the arc of the rope/pendulum.
So yea, I'm pretty sure the skier's net speed is much higher than the boat's. A classic physics acceleration formula would show it - heck I probably had this problem in class at one time.
1. BRILLIANT Quote from Rev: "Inviting that crash by giving it opportunity." By god that needs to be on a poster or used in driving classes.
2. Regarding the skier's speed. Having sat on this for months now, I agree Rev, the more lateral a skiers motion, the higher his net speed (sum of the two vectors, boat forward+skier lateral). The skier will almost always be traveling forward at the same speed as the boat (length of rope doesn't change, so until the angle between skier and boat exceeds 45*, skier's forward velocity is same as boat). But the skier also has a lateral velocity along the arc of the rope/pendulum.
So yea, I'm pretty sure the skier's net speed is much higher than the boat's. A classic physics acceleration formula would show it - heck I probably had this problem in class at one time.
Graphicjunkie
Scooter
I've been in martial arts for a very very long time. And long ago one of the more senior students in class made the statement that it saved his life during a motorcycle accident. He went on to talk about how the amount of time we spend doing break falls helped him do just that. Break his fall, as well as control his body on the ground until he came to a stop. I SERIOUSLY thought to myself, "You're F.... stupid!" I guess I had never given other application to fighting technique any thought. Never gave it much thought beyond that day either.
I did have a wreck on a dirt bike years ago. And I have to admit shockingly. I did react the same way.
Your brain DOES respond "in flight" to the position of your body and how to react if you have trained it, and practiced it (a million times...). Without thinking about it I rotated my body, expanded my arms slapping the ground, and flexed my whole core at the moment of impact.
I walked away with some torn clothing and some scrapes and bruises. No broken bones, no torn ligaments... Just some rash. (Helmet, T-shirt, Jeans...old days! : )
I am not a professional...but here are my thoughts of the different things I've read on this thread...and I don't mean to offend anyone.
My dirt bike accident was probably at about 40 mph. And make no mistake, it hurt like hell. But my actions of "splatting" my body as flat as possible caused me to come to a pretty quick and short stop.
The thought of crashing on the hard top at much higher speeds...then tucking into any kind of ball seems absolutely insane to me because I would think that would allow your body to travel further, getting more beat up, and increases the chances of hitting something or being hit by something.
I came to a complete stop about 20 ft from the wipeout. How far will you "travel" tucked into a ball before coming to a stop? How many rotations will your body turn, giving potential to damage, before you come to rest.
I did like the comments about basically turning up your radar sensitivity. I'm WAY more in tune to what is happening when I'm on my bike vs in my truck. So yea, you have to take away as much opportunity for it to happen as you possibly can.
I did have a wreck on a dirt bike years ago. And I have to admit shockingly. I did react the same way.
Your brain DOES respond "in flight" to the position of your body and how to react if you have trained it, and practiced it (a million times...). Without thinking about it I rotated my body, expanded my arms slapping the ground, and flexed my whole core at the moment of impact.
I walked away with some torn clothing and some scrapes and bruises. No broken bones, no torn ligaments... Just some rash. (Helmet, T-shirt, Jeans...old days! :
)I am not a professional...but here are my thoughts of the different things I've read on this thread...and I don't mean to offend anyone.
My dirt bike accident was probably at about 40 mph. And make no mistake, it hurt like hell. But my actions of "splatting" my body as flat as possible caused me to come to a pretty quick and short stop.
The thought of crashing on the hard top at much higher speeds...then tucking into any kind of ball seems absolutely insane to me because I would think that would allow your body to travel further, getting more beat up, and increases the chances of hitting something or being hit by something.
I came to a complete stop about 20 ft from the wipeout. How far will you "travel" tucked into a ball before coming to a stop? How many rotations will your body turn, giving potential to damage, before you come to rest.
I did like the comments about basically turning up your radar sensitivity. I'm WAY more in tune to what is happening when I'm on my bike vs in my truck. So yea, you have to take away as much opportunity for it to happen as you possibly can.
wvshooter
Scooter
I went down at 55mph when a cage driver decided he wanted the lane I was riding in. I remember hitting the front brake hard. The next thing I remember was sliding along the pavement. I slid from the far left lane across three driving lanes and the full width of the parking lane coming to rest beside a guard rail post. About 150 feet according to an officer.
My full face helmet had scratches on the top and side which indicates being upside down at some point. Most sliding was done at the 4 o'clock position on my hip. Damage to heavy belt in that area. Damage to gun holster at that location. Bunch of damage to that area of my Tour Master armored jacket. Also right elbow and right knee.
Nine out of ten times when it happens you're at the mercy of the laws of physics.
Bottom line... wear all the gear all the time.
My full face helmet had scratches on the top and side which indicates being upside down at some point. Most sliding was done at the 4 o'clock position on my hip. Damage to heavy belt in that area. Damage to gun holster at that location. Bunch of damage to that area of my Tour Master armored jacket. Also right elbow and right knee.
Nine out of ten times when it happens you're at the mercy of the laws of physics.
Bottom line... wear all the gear all the time.
Aus Daisy
Moped
I've only had one bad crash. A few times I've dropped at barely moving speed, like the Honda with linked brakes that I'd only had a day. Didn't even have time to wonder what was happening as I touched the rear brake doing a U turn. Dropped my learner bike turning into my driveway and cracked my shin on the handlebar as I stepped over it. Again, no time to wonder what I did wrong (dug the centrestand in).
This time I had all the time in the world.
I came over a slight rise in a right hander (we drive on the left) and found some fine gravel from roadworks. The bike slid out at the back, which it has done a couple of times before on really cold icy days, and then tank slapped as it bit back into the bitumen. I recovered from that just in time to see another patch of this slippery gravel all the way around the outside of the curve. There was no way I would attempt turning, leaning or braking in it after what just happened, so I rolled straight through onto the soft verge to cut the next corner and back onto the blacktop at a spot I already picked out.
Then I saw the culvert right in the middle of where I was going! I still had time to pick a new line to come above the the concrete buttress and even remember thinking its a good job the guideposts are plastic. What I didn't know was that it had rained for a couple of days and the ground was so soft that my tyres had sunk an inch or so into it, so it wouldn't bear right - and I still wasn't making any sharp inputs because the back end might go around again and I would end up in the ditch under the bike, or wrapped around a tree. At this point I remembered the dirt biking I'd done in my teens (not that I was very good at it) and the voice in my head said, "When in doubt, power out." So I opened the throttle and jumped. (An SISF flash would make it jump better though).
Lucky for me I was on the high side of the ditch. The 14 is a bit nose heavy. As the front went down I had an image in my head of it it going into the bank and a million pieces. I was sad. Then the bars wrenched out of my hands and it was only at that moment I started to think about me. I flew through the air and told myself to tuck my arms in. I don't know how many times I tumbled, or even how many times I hit the ground. I remember the first hit on my left side was like a big splat that knocked the wind out of me. I even thought I could still hear my bike. Then things were topsy turvy for a bit ... and then they were still. Lying on my back with my knees up, I waited for a bit to make sure they were still, and I tried to get up. The excruciating pain in my lower back was a pretty good indication that this wasn't going to happen. By now people were arriving, trying to stop me getting up and telling me, and each other that I shouldn't remove my helmet. I had to take charge - yeah, I'm bossy - and tell them no, I wasn't getting up, I was conscious and could remove my own helmet and why the hell am I upside down? I had landed with my feet uphill towards the road and I couldn't move. That made me a bit cranky.
I asked how my bike was. My friend said it was a bit of a mess, but mostly in one piece. I had to get him to tell me that twice and then asked if the wheels were still round. Turned out it was only about ten feet away, lying on its side. That was why I could still hear it while I was flying.
Like I said, all the time in the world.
ATGATT
I was wearing an armoured textile jacket and kevlar jeans. I had a deep gash in my knee that required stitches, but the jeans weren't damaged. The jacket has a couple of scuffs on the elbow and a small tear in the pocket where my camera was. Even the camera survived. I still have the good leather boots and gloves, but the two month old Shoei GT-Air did what it was designed to do.
I have a fractured pelvis and one vertebra, a nice scar on my knee and a swollen foot. I also had a headache for a week.
This time I had all the time in the world.
I came over a slight rise in a right hander (we drive on the left) and found some fine gravel from roadworks. The bike slid out at the back, which it has done a couple of times before on really cold icy days, and then tank slapped as it bit back into the bitumen. I recovered from that just in time to see another patch of this slippery gravel all the way around the outside of the curve. There was no way I would attempt turning, leaning or braking in it after what just happened, so I rolled straight through onto the soft verge to cut the next corner and back onto the blacktop at a spot I already picked out.
Then I saw the culvert right in the middle of where I was going! I still had time to pick a new line to come above the the concrete buttress and even remember thinking its a good job the guideposts are plastic. What I didn't know was that it had rained for a couple of days and the ground was so soft that my tyres had sunk an inch or so into it, so it wouldn't bear right - and I still wasn't making any sharp inputs because the back end might go around again and I would end up in the ditch under the bike, or wrapped around a tree. At this point I remembered the dirt biking I'd done in my teens (not that I was very good at it) and the voice in my head said, "When in doubt, power out." So I opened the throttle and jumped. (An SISF flash would make it jump better though).
Lucky for me I was on the high side of the ditch. The 14 is a bit nose heavy. As the front went down I had an image in my head of it it going into the bank and a million pieces. I was sad. Then the bars wrenched out of my hands and it was only at that moment I started to think about me. I flew through the air and told myself to tuck my arms in. I don't know how many times I tumbled, or even how many times I hit the ground. I remember the first hit on my left side was like a big splat that knocked the wind out of me. I even thought I could still hear my bike. Then things were topsy turvy for a bit ... and then they were still. Lying on my back with my knees up, I waited for a bit to make sure they were still, and I tried to get up. The excruciating pain in my lower back was a pretty good indication that this wasn't going to happen. By now people were arriving, trying to stop me getting up and telling me, and each other that I shouldn't remove my helmet. I had to take charge - yeah, I'm bossy - and tell them no, I wasn't getting up, I was conscious and could remove my own helmet and why the hell am I upside down? I had landed with my feet uphill towards the road and I couldn't move. That made me a bit cranky.
I asked how my bike was. My friend said it was a bit of a mess, but mostly in one piece. I had to get him to tell me that twice and then asked if the wheels were still round. Turned out it was only about ten feet away, lying on its side. That was why I could still hear it while I was flying.
Like I said, all the time in the world.
ATGATT
I was wearing an armoured textile jacket and kevlar jeans. I had a deep gash in my knee that required stitches, but the jeans weren't damaged. The jacket has a couple of scuffs on the elbow and a small tear in the pocket where my camera was. Even the camera survived. I still have the good leather boots and gloves, but the two month old Shoei GT-Air did what it was designed to do.
I have a fractured pelvis and one vertebra, a nice scar on my knee and a swollen foot. I also had a headache for a week.
Having had years of martial arts training as well as a recent high speed high side, my opinion is that you're never going to get sufficient gymnastic skills to be able to stick the landing in a real crash.
I've had the pleasure of the run of the mill low side where instinct kicks in and tells you to lift your low side leg, but I doubt if that needs to be practiced. But in a high side (at least in my case), you're moving so fast and you may have no frame of reference or even a view of the ground. Personally, I landed on my outstretched hand and then onto the back of my head. Could be argued that tucking my arm in might have saved a separated shoulder and broken elbow or maybe they reduced the force applied to my head and saved me a broken neck.
Personally, I'm focusing more on avoiding the crash, gearing for it, and trying to stay strong and limber enough to reduce injury.
Your mileage may vary.
I've had the pleasure of the run of the mill low side where instinct kicks in and tells you to lift your low side leg, but I doubt if that needs to be practiced. But in a high side (at least in my case), you're moving so fast and you may have no frame of reference or even a view of the ground. Personally, I landed on my outstretched hand and then onto the back of my head. Could be argued that tucking my arm in might have saved a separated shoulder and broken elbow or maybe they reduced the force applied to my head and saved me a broken neck.
Personally, I'm focusing more on avoiding the crash, gearing for it, and trying to stay strong and limber enough to reduce injury.
Your mileage may vary.
As a currently-retired (due to injuries) mountain-biker, (which is very much like a dirt-bike rider, only slower) pretty much what I've learned is that about the best you can do in an accident is keep yourself from breaking a wrist.
Even at relatively slows speeds (max downhill is about 40-45mph, typical CRASH speeds 30-35) it's all you can do to NOT put your arm out to "catch" yourself as you're going down. I've learned to "tuck" whenever I get thrown off the mountain bike. Even at those speeds it's not easy (momentum really wants to throw your arms out) and you only have about 1 second before you're going to impact the ground.
My most serious accident (collapsed front wheel going downhill hauling ass) threw me about 20 ft before I hit the ground with the top of my helmet (tucked in a roll). That sent me to the ER - thought I broke a rib.
That was probably 30mph.
Acckk -- glad you came through OK. I've had my share of broken ribs (skiing and full-contact fighting) and oye do they hurt!
I've actually been amazed at how similar my injuries were to folks who have crashed on bicycles or mtn bikes. I think there's a market for pedal riders to start wearing some real protective gear.
I've actually been amazed at how similar my injuries were to folks who have crashed on bicycles or mtn bikes. I think there's a market for pedal riders to start wearing some real protective gear.
I highsided my old 79 xs 11 while driving in a straight line. The shaft drive would lock up the rear suspension when you were under power. I hit something, the rear wheel gave a "yamahop" and that was it.
I felt the steering go to the left lock, then the right. There was no controlling it. The force was so powerful. It took over.
When I came to, I was sitting in the front seat of a good high school friend. He happened to be driving by.
I had tucked myself into a little ball, and my full face helmet saved my life. Ribs, shoulder and ling not so lucky.
I felt the steering go to the left lock, then the right. There was no controlling it. The force was so powerful. It took over.
When I came to, I was sitting in the front seat of a good high school friend. He happened to be driving by.
I had tucked myself into a little ball, and my full face helmet saved my life. Ribs, shoulder and ling not so lucky.