• Can't post after logging to the forum for the first time... Try Again - If you can't post in the forum, sign out of both the membership site and the forum and log in again. Make sure your COG membership is active and your browser allow cookies. If you still can't post, contact the COG IT guy at IT@Concours.org.
  • IF YOU GET 404 ERROR: This may be due to using a link in a post from prior to the web migration. Content was brought over from the old forum as is, but the links may be in error. If the link contains "cog-online.org" it is an old link and will not work.

FOUND!!! NYBiomed's '09 non/running issue has been determined!!!

mattchewn

mattchewn

Member
Member
All,
Save this as one for the books.
First, a brief rundown of what happened;
I pre-purchase inspected the bike for Rick earlier this year.  Found a couple issues no biggies really. Rick purchases and I tow it to my house to do the necessary maintenance and repairs. This included a needed valve adjustment at 10K miles.  Returned the bike to its' new owner and he runs it for about 2500 miles over the next few months.  Get a call from him a few months ago and the bike won't stay running, hard to start if it starts at all. No error codes are coming up on display. I'm thinking, "maybe I missed something/ made a mistake on the repairs/maintenance I did."  So I take a drive up to NY, from just outside DC, ( @300 miles ), to take a look see at this machine and ease my troubled mind as well. after a weekend of this and that, various tests and troubleshooting procedures we are still at zero. New plugs helped very slightly and only for a brief period of time.
Symptoms
Backfiring, running rich, stalling and very hard to start, will not idle at a normal rpm level, black smoke from tailpipe. Plugs come out black with soot from rich running.
Bike was taken to a Kawi dealer, hooked up to a KDS and full system checked with no leads as to the issues. Kawasaki tech line had access to the KDS system and all data. Still no ideas. Kawi's response, Call and let us know what you find!  Really? Thanks a lot Kawi. Thanks for nothing.
Injectors were pulled and checked for flow and leaking. All good there too.
While trying t find time to start thoroughly testing resistances in the harness I get a chance meeting with one of my dealer mechanics. He tells me he just came back from Kawi tech school and they had a bike there exhibiting the same symptoms as mine that he had looked at a few weeks prior. Seems there is a relatively rare failure at the root of all of this.
After listening to him for a few minutes I decide to go ahead and order this particular part from my dealer.  318.00 is my discounted price with tax, this better frigging work. 
Part came in on This Thurs and I picked it up on Friday. 
I tear into the top of the motor once again, ( bike still has no fairings on it but engine is assembled and will start).  Pulled all the brackets and parts, radiator, shrouds, etc. Work my way down to the valve cover and remove it as well. Almost there. 
Many of you have no idea how the VVT ( variable valve timing) system works and it isn't exactly easy to explain how it does its power making magic. Suffice it to say when it works it is a very good thing. 
I remove all the oil feed tubes and before I loosen the camshaft bearing caps I take a socket and crack the camshaft bolt loose on the intake (VVT) cam and oil squirts out of the feed hole and the VVT unit turns what seems to me to be a unreasonably large distance with little or no resistance. I think I am on to something here now and my mechanic friend had the right insight.
I pulled the cam out and proceeded to separate the VVT unit from the end of the camshaft for replacement/inspection.
NOW I KNOW I HAVE FOUND THE PROBLEM.
It's about friggin time!
EBAY camshaft ordered. Now to wait a day or two for it to arrive. In the meantime I can repair the stripped threads on the engine mounting bolt holes with some new Timesert thread repair sleeves.


This is what the inside of the VVT should look like,

 
Looks like a new Kawi cam is 540.00!  WITHOUT the 398.00 VVT  :-\ :-\

We aint going there boys and girls!
Matt
 
Matt, is that a bad casting for the VVT part and area with the slot eventually broke and caused the problem?
 
Some very good work there. Always good to find a problem and fix it. That find is way beyond my ham fisted skills.
 
4B,
These are all precision machined pieces. Most like there was an issue in the VVT unit that caused it to "bang" (oil pressure should be damping this motion normally), back and forth causing the damage to the locating dowel and its recesses. SISF will be doing a post mortem exploration of the VVT unit in the near future.
One note; my mechanic also said the Kawi training instructor told him that if you take the cover off off one of these it will be a paperweight from then on.
Matt
 
4B,
I have to admit, the trip was in part a bit selfish in that I wanted to be 100% sure that Rick wasn't going to be spending a bunch of money repairing something I had worked on, (making sure it wasn't my fault). So While I was up there I figured I'll just drag it home and figure out the problem for him. Gives me something to do in my, (lately nonexistent), free time, and saves him some money as well.
Matt
 
Yes, a huge find, particularly because this is the only bike available with vvt, so the diagnostics for this is going to escape about 100% of mechanics, including very competent ones. Once viewed in the rear mirror, all the problems definitely fit the solution, but to be the first to find this... yes, seriously good work Matt  :beerchug: :beerchug: :beerchug: :beerchug:  Steve
 
mattchewn said:
One note; my mechanic also said the Kawi training instructor told him that if you take the cover off off one of these it will be a paperweight from then on.
Matt
Click to expand...

the same was said about the vvt unit on a later model 2jzgte engine (toyota supra), but i was successful in disasembly and reassembly of the unit to clean spooge out of it, the car later made 650 rwhp on the dyno with pump gas
 
ok...so I skimmed this thread.

How the HELL does something like this happen?!

Was the bike abused?Messed with?? Starved of oil?
WTH?!  :eek:

 
    Matt, I kept telling you that it had to be the a cam/variable timing issue. But we were too caught up on rings with the compression issue. Nah, only kidding. You spent a lot of time going through everything that weekend you came up. And obviously a lot more time at home. Anyway, a really good find. Although Rick has been bike less a good portion of the year. I'm sure he will be feeling much better now as well. Not too shabby for a guy who sells tee shirts and bike covers. :)
 
Matt, is the bike still under warranty? It's very disconcerting that Kawasaki threw in the towel without properly digging into this to determine the cause. I'm very curious how something like this would not be a warranty issue.
 
mattchewn said:
Looks like a new Kawi cam is 540.00!  WITHOUT the 398.00 VVT  :-\ :-\

We aint going there boys and girls!
Matt
Click to expand...

I guess you lost me on that one ^^^

Because you said ...

EBAY camshaft ordered. Now to wait a day or two for it to arrive.

So you ordered a camshaft - Don't you also need a VVT too - or did you have one laying around?

And...

In the meantime I can repair the stripped threads on the engine mounting bolt holes

How did the engine mounting holes get their threads stripped?
 
Bigfoot and SCR,
I pulled the plug on the 100$/hr diagnostics after a few hundred was spent. figured I would dig until I found it. Got the tip just a few days ago about the VVT and I ordered one from the dealer. Had it sitting here on the bench when I did the disassembly, (thats how I got a pic of a good one). I priced a new camshaft and said "uh, hell no" to 600.00. Ordered one from eBay for 50.00$.  Camshaft is coming from about 40 miles from where I live. 
Last time I pulled this motor apart some of the threads on the Rt side upper engine mount gave up. Knowing it would be a bit before she was back on the road again I decided to not repair them at that time. I purchased a Time-sert set and some extra long sleeves to perform the thread repairs as well as a new 180 piece tap and die set.
As for how the failure occurred; IDK.
I, (Sisf too) have a theory that the unit stuck initially and that allowed the oil inside it to drain out.  The oil inside is used similar to oil in a shock absorber in that it will dampen the motion of the parts. With the oil drained it allowed it to bang back and forth enough to cause the damage.
This is also what SISF and I discussed the other nite about this failure.
Matt
 
Wow!  Just WOW!  Great work Matt!

anyone want to ask that question about a COG membership being worth it? 

:great: :great: :great: :great: :great: :great: :great: :great: :great: :great:
 
mattchewn said:
As for how the failure occurred; IDK.
I, (Sisf too) have a theory that the unit stuck initially and that allowed the oil inside it to drain out.  The oil inside is used similar to oil in a shock absorber in that it will dampen the motion of the parts. With the oil drained it allowed it to bang back and forth enough to cause the damage.
This is also what SISF and I discussed the other nite about this failure.
Matt
Click to expand...

So the oil in the VVT is sealed and separate from the engine oil?  I was always under the assumption it used engine oil in there?
 
Egodriver71 said:
mattchewn said:
As for how the failure occurred; IDK.
I, (Sisf too) have a theory that the unit stuck initially and that allowed the oil inside it to drain out.  The oil inside is used similar to oil in a shock absorber in that it will dampen the motion of the parts. With the oil drained it allowed it to bang back and forth enough to cause the damage.
This is also what SISF and I discussed the other nite about this failure.
Matt
Click to expand...

So the oil in the VVT is sealed and separate from the engine oil?  I was always under the assumption it used engine oil in there?
Click to expand...

you didn't read correctly.... yes, its pumped in there while the engine is running, from the oilpump in the sump....
after sitting, possibly after an oil change, it could have drained down, and resulted in what happened. maybe.
 
Sport Rider said:
Wow!  Just WOW!  Great work Matt!

anyone want to ask that question about a COG membership being worth it? 

:great: :great: :great: :great: :great: :great: :great: :great: :great: :great:
Click to expand...

^^THIS^^

It was March when I first discovered COG, at that time it was a tool/resource...hadn't owned a motorcycle in 5 years and wanted to ease into it. Ive now hosted a Tech day and been on a group ride, met great people, planning on attending 2016 National down south and much more...I'm just chalking this up a fluke incident, fortunately i'm in a position to weather the financial $sting$, but in prior years she prolly would've just sat till a few extra sheckles accumulated over the months. Matt has truly been a Godsend and a good friend. BUT, I can only say that I'm probably not that special, that he would do what he has done for me, for anyone else...that's just the kinda guy he is.

:beerchug:

THANKS Matt!
 
Actually, i did complete an oil change in the days prior to the failure...I can't recall if it was the very next ride that it failed, but it definitely happened within the week ...

MAN OF BLUES said:
Egodriver71 said:
mattchewn said:
As for how the failure occurred; IDK.
I, (Sisf too) have a theory that the unit stuck initially and that allowed the oil inside it to drain out.  The oil inside is used similar to oil in a shock absorber in that it will dampen the motion of the parts. With the oil drained it allowed it to bang back and forth enough to cause the damage.
This is also what SISF and I discussed the other nite about this failure.
Matt

"So the oil in the VVT is sealed and separate from the engine oil?  I was always under the assumption it used engine oil in there?"
you didn't read correctly.... yes, its pumped in there while the engine is running, from the oil pump in the sump....
after sitting, possibly after an oil change, it could have drained down, and resulted in what happened. maybe.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
I'm thinking that one of the orings on the upper supply pipes failed, or was compromised, and the "lock" mechanism that locks the VVT in "retarded" position could not activate during low speed or idle, then it was free to bang away at will... jmho.
id be checking that lock pin also, and the rest of the solenoid valve and valve body.... might be some debris up in the spool now, and it could self destruct again.

again, jmho

NOW, this has me wondering if it could be part of Nichole's no start issue....http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php?topic=62976.0

if the intake cam isn't returning to the correct position, there will be a error sensed by the ecu, which controls all of this, and theoretically the bike should not start... I.e. the cams are not alligned correctly and sensed.....

hmmmmmmmm interesting stuff here....
 
MAN OF BLUES said:
I'm thinking that one of the orings on the upper supply pipes failed, or was compromised, and the "lock" mechanism that locks the VVT in "retarded" position could not activate during low speed or idle, then it was free to bang away at will... jmho.
id be checking that lock pin also, and the rest of the solenoid valve and valve body.... might be some debris up in the spool now, and it could self destruct again.

again, jmho

NOW, this has me wondering if it could be part of Nichole's no start issue....http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php?topic=62976.0

if the intake cam isn't returning to the correct position, there will be a error sensed by the ecu, which controls all of this, and theoretically the bike should not start... I.e. the cams are not aligned correctly and sensed.....

hmmmmmmmm interesting stuff here....
Click to expand...

The ECU threw NO code, which very much added to the problem unfortunately.... :(
 
NYbiomed said:
MAN OF BLUES said:
I'm thinking that one of the orings on the upper supply pipes failed, or was compromised, and the "lock" mechanism that locks the VVT in "retarded" position could not activate during low speed or idle, then it was free to bang away at will... jmho.
id be checking that lock pin also, and the rest of the solenoid valve and valve body.... might be some debris up in the spool now, and it could self destruct again.

again, jmho

NOW, this has me wondering if it could be part of Nichole's no start issue....http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php?topic=62976.0

if the intake cam isn't returning to the correct position, there will be a error sensed by the ecu, which controls all of this, and theoretically the bike should not start... I.e. the cams are not aligned correctly and sensed.....

hmmmmmmmm interesting stuff here....
Click to expand...

The ECU threw NO code, which very much added to the problem unfortunately.... :(
Click to expand...

understood, but maybe it wedged up just close enough for the pickup to still.see the node...

my question is, what goes on that mating pair of holes that was chewed all up? is it a dowelpin locating the shell to the camshaft?
just curious as I never pulled one apart to look, and the schematic diagram and associated drawings in the manual when I quickly scanned that zone, didn't see a dowel, but surely there is one....
 
NYbiomed, I have to agree with you about how awesome Matt is. When I was on my early summer trip, I was heading to meet Matt in person. About 20 minutes away, but bike just quit running. I was in downtown DC, at rush hour. I text Matt and told him I was broke down. 45 minutes later he was there with his truck, and we were loading my bike in the back. We went to his house and Matt found an electrical connection plug that had worked its way loose. Bike was running again, and my trip was saved!

At home I was working on my bikes suspension, and I messed up a part. Guess who was the first to respond to my forum post and next day have a part in the mail.

COG membership definitely has is advantages!

Thanks again Matt, and hats off to ya!!  :beerchug:
 
MAN OF BLUES said:
I'm thinking that one of the orings on the upper supply pipes failed, or was compromised, and the "lock" mechanism that locks the VVT in "retarded" position could not activate during low speed or idle, then it was free to bang away at will... jmho.
id be checking that lock pin also, and the rest of the solenoid valve and valve body.... might be some debris up in the spool now, and it could self destruct again.

again, jmho

NOW, this has me wondering if it could be part of Nichole's no start issue....http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php?topic=62976.0

if the intake cam isn't returning to the correct position, there will be a error sensed by the ecu, which controls all of this, and theoretically the bike should not start... I.e. the cams are not alligned correctly and sensed.....

hmmmmmmmm interesting stuff here....
Click to expand...


Oh no, don't even go there. Fingers crossed that this is a simple, defective sensor!
 
MOB,
There is a dowel pin ( maybe 3-4 MM Dia.) (supposed to be), pressed into the camshaft. There is an accompanying slot for engagement of the dowel in the inside flange of the VVT actuator.  Both of these locations are destroyed.  The VVT is also a "slight" press fit on the end of the cam with precision machined surfaces for sealing in the oil pressure to the VVT. I was able to separate the 2 parts using the center bolt (loosened) and lightly tapping on it to push the camshaft out of the VVT.  It is actually fit inside the VVT about 3/4 inch. You have to pull the cams to separate these two parts.
Matt

 
MAN OF BLUES said:
Egodriver71 said:
mattchewn said:
As for how the failure occurred; IDK.
I, (Sisf too) have a theory that the unit stuck initially and that allowed the oil inside it to drain out.  The oil inside is used similar to oil in a shock absorber in that it will dampen the motion of the parts. With the oil drained it allowed it to bang back and forth enough to cause the damage.
This is also what SISF and I discussed the other nite about this failure.
Matt
Click to expand...

So the oil in the VVT is sealed and separate from the engine oil?  I was always under the assumption it used engine oil in there?
Click to expand...

you didn't read correctly.... yes, its pumped in there while the engine is running, from the oilpump in the sump....
after sitting, possibly after an oil change, it could have drained down, and resulted in what happened. maybe.
Click to expand...

I did read about it leaking out, but I figured once the engine started and pumped oil it would fill it back up.  I would think that before the VVT kicks in at 4k rpm or whatever it does, the chamber would be filled with engine oil and therefore not 'bang' around.
 
Egodriver71 said:
I did read about it leaking out, but I figured once the engine started and pumped oil it would fill it back up.  I would think that before the VVT kicks in at 4k rpm or whatever it does, the chamber would be filled with engine oil and therefore not 'bang' around.
Click to expand...

Thomas, this may be one of the reasons that the owner's manual says to let the engine run for a minute or two immediately after starting it - even if it's warm - so that the oil can get to all of these components before a load is placed on the engine.
 
Egodriver71 said:
MAN OF BLUES said:
Egodriver71 said:
mattchewn said:
As for how the failure occurred; IDK.
I, (Sisf too) have a theory that the unit stuck initially and that allowed the oil inside it to drain out.  The oil inside is used similar to oil in a shock absorber in that it will dampen the motion of the parts. With the oil drained it allowed it to bang back and forth enough to cause the damage.
This is also what SISF and I discussed the other nite about this failure.
Matt
Click to expand...

So the oil in the VVT is sealed and separate from the engine oil?  I was always under the assumption it used engine oil in there?
Click to expand...

you didn't read correctly.... yes, its pumped in there while the engine is running, from the oilpump in the sump....
after sitting, possibly after an oil change, it could have drained down, and resulted in what happened. maybe.
Click to expand...

I did read about it leaking out, but I figured once the engine started and pumped oil it would fill it back up.  I would think that before the VVT kicks in at 4k rpm or whatever it does, the chamber would be filled with engine oil and therefore not 'bang' around.
Click to expand...

yes, in theory it should work that way, but as there is a solenoid operated spool valve in that circuit a malfunction with ecu signal, or some debris in the valve could prevent the circuit from being actuated to allow flow to close/open the path, and result in some cavitation of oil flow preventing the vvt from finding "home" at idle or startup. This is why I suggested analyzing the valve body and solenoid operation also.
gotta find cause so it doesn't happen again.
 
MAN OF BLUES said:
Egodriver71 said:
I did read about it leaking out, but I figured once the engine started and pumped oil it would fill it back up.  I would think that before the VVT kicks in at 4k rpm or whatever it does, the chamber would be filled with engine oil and therefore not 'bang' around.
Click to expand...

yes, in theory it should work that way, but as there is a solenoid operated spool valve in that circuit a malfunction with ecu signal, or some debris in the valve could prevent the circuit from being actuated to allow flow to close/open the path, and result in some cavitation of oil flow preventing the vvt from finding "home" at idle or startup. This is why I suggested analyzing the valve body and solenoid operation also.
gotta find cause so it doesn't happen again.
Click to expand...

Very much agree there.  Find the cause, not just replace the bad parts, or you may have the same failure again.
 
  :eek:  This is all very interesting. Had to chime in just to get the updates. :popcorncouple: Good job Matt ( :sign0098:) on being persistent and getting to the VVT that was mangled enough to cause the problem but not give a error code.    Bob, looks like you were going in the right direction.    Matt, Had you been involved with this motorcycle before you looked at it for Rick?    "Last time I pulled this motor apart some of the threads on the Rt side upper engine mount gave up".  Had someone else been into the motor before you went there?      Why do you think the bike was in need of a valve adjustment with only 10,000 miles?    This is premature according to Kawasaki recommendations isn't it?                Curious, when we change our own oil should we do the complete job is 20 minutes or so or let the oil drain out overnight to get everything out of the motor that could be in there?    Could this cause a problem??    I've been doing it as quickly as possible for years and put as much oil in the filter as it will hold when I turn it horizontally and relocate it back to the motor. Once oil is filled up in window to indicator mark, start the engine and let it idle for a few minutes, check for leaks, shut it off and wait to recheck oil level.    Works for me.                          Once again GOOD JOB  MATT!!!    :bravo_2:
 
Matt's looked at the VVt for a failure point. He's going to send to me and I'll evaluate it also. Let's not get ahead of ourselves thinking this is an "oil change problem" or anything else like that. It could have been a problem of poor manufacture on that unit or of a design deficiency. Let's try to get a diagnosis on it before looking for the solutions. steve
 
Steve in Sunny Fla said:
Matt's looked at the VVt for a failure point. He's going to send to me and I'll evaluate it also. Let's not get ahead of ourselves thinking this is an "oil change problem" or anything else like that. It could have been a problem of poor manufacture on that unit or of a design deficiency. Let's try to get a diagnosis on it before looking for the solutions. steve
Click to expand...

sooooooo.....
did you pull the unit apart yet?
could you do so, and take pictures of the guts? and also maybe give me an idea of any seals internal that I can begin to source as replacement items?
I know the unit is marked "DON'T DISASSEMBLE" so enquiring minds wanna know why, i.e. can re building actually be accomplished?

thanks Bubba... :great: :great: :great:
 
MAN OF BLUES said:
Steve in Sunny Fla said:
Matt's looked at the VVt for a failure point. He's going to send to me and I'll evaluate it also. Let's not get ahead of ourselves thinking this is an "oil change problem" or anything else like that. It could have been a problem of poor manufacture on that unit or of a design deficiency. Let's try to get a diagnosis on it before looking for the solutions. steve
Click to expand...

sooooooo.....
did you pull the unit apart yet?
could you do so, and take pictures of the guts? and also maybe give me an idea of any seals internal that I can begin to source as replacement items?
I know the unit is marked "DON'T DISASSEMBLE" so enquiring minds wanna know why, i.e. can re building actually be accomplished?

thanks Bubba... :great: :great: :great:
Click to expand...

  Hey guess where it is - on my flashing bench, right where I put it  :-[ . Matt was here Saturday for a flash, we talked about it but were both way to busy for the post mortem. I'll try to get to it, I'm very interested in what's going on in there, just a time issue. Steve

 
    Well, In the end we replaced the head that we got off of Ebay for around $250- I saw some pics and it was pretty tore up and the damage extended to other areas besides the VVT actuator, which BTW costs more than the entire head from Ebay. So, Matts stuck with a new actuator, as it simply did not make sense to replace it in the "new" head being that its not a high failure part. Since this is my first C14, I didn't realize until months after purchase that I might have been eligible to purchase an extended warranty. For the minimal buy-in, it seems a no-brainer. My Bad, I paid the bills as a result of the oversight. The heads are plentiful on Ebay, can't think of much of a reason to buy an actuator itself at a higher cost. Kawi dealer couldn't figure out the problem with his KDS, instead they "sent out" the injectors to be cleaned and flow-tested ($500) or whatever...all in all a pretty negative experience from an 09 with 12k miles on it, but surely the pain would've been much greater had Matt not done most of the wrenching pro bono.
  I really don't know what to make of it....bad luck? I was really only able to ride it for 3months before catastrophic failure, that would leave a bad taste in anyone's mouth. Total cost was over $1200 bones. She smokes a bit now, but I only have about 30 miles on her since the 6 month layup and now winter here in the NE... plus I was away in Montana for most of Jan/Feb... maybe the black puffs of smoke will go away as I log miles? I can only hope...
:truce:

 
Bigfoot_16 said:
Rick, I'm sorry for your troubles. Is your bike ineligible for an extended warranty now?
Click to expand...

Thanks, yeah, it's a bitter pill to swallow... I traveled some 5 hrs away to get a LOW mileage, reasonably priced C14- after being out of motorcycling for 5 years, only to ride it for 3 months before catastrophic failure and a healthy sum of money to get her fixed. I'm pretty sure I'll trade it in either next year or the year after, I'd be hesitant to sell it to someone I know as I'm leery of it's long term reliability. I'm hoping that with more riding and another oil change the black smoke (I estimate 3/10 scale) will fade. The original belief was a bad fuel pump (BTW, if anyone needs one, PM me) OR bad gas, so a sh!tload of additives were added and a bunch of gas washed away the oil's seal in the bore leading to low or minimal compression- all this probably diluted the oil? So I'm going to run it for another 50 miles or so and change the oil again using Rotella 15w/40 and a new filter. Of course there's always the variable of the head gotten off Ebay and its condition/mileage. Anyways, I still love the bike, maybe just not mine so much....

Best regards to all those who inquired and helped. :beerchug:
Rick

BTW: I just renewed my membership for another year in COG that was about to expire, worth every penny.
 
ny biomed - don't worry about the smoke and the low compression, unless Matt did a compression check after replacing the vvt and it was still low. the increased overlap that you got from the vvt failure is where the compression was going. Remember the backfires? that was your compression going up the intake. So now that's fixed, and the rings are pretty hearty so that's not likely to be an issue. The smoke comes from all the crud that's accumulated in the exhaust system from the failure and all the additives... I've seen it all before. ride the bike, get on it hard, and it will all clear up. there's no reason to be fearful, the bike is fixed. HTH, Steve
 
  In an environment where so many owners are trying to service their own bike, I think it's important for us to learns from events like this. Forensic diagnosis is tricky so often going to the source wil yield good information.  The mechanic who actually started this thread posted this :

"Yes, I did the work on his bike. NO! the valves never contacted the pistons and NYBiomed has photos of the PRISTINE pistons of his engine from when the head was removed. "

  The diagnostic concerns I have in particular are:

  1) This happened 2500 miles after the valve adjustment. The fact is the FIRST time the cam would advance far enough to hit the piston the damage would occur. I have a hard time thinking a c-14 owner wouldn't get over 50% throttle in 2500 miles. Indeed, the first thing any competent mechanic would do during a test ride would be to ride the bike through the rpm range.

  2)  There would be an immediate power issue which would have resulted from the improperly timed camshaft, and it would have been immediately noticeable.

  3) in communicating with Matt, he stated that none of the valves were bent, and that the owner of the bike has pictures.

  4) I have an experiment that I'll do at the next valve adjustment.  It will consist of placing a piston at tdc, removing the exhaust cam so the valves are on the seats, and the with the intake cam properly timed, manually advance the intake cam and note if any valve / piston interference occurs, and and what point t would be in degrees (easily done with the vvt module and a degree wheel). This would answer, once and for all, the cam timing issue .

  Steve
 
Well, I did have pics of gallng of the head and a sheared VVT, (can no longer locate pics from 2 phones ago) but I cannot recall pics of bent valves or of pristine pistons? IDK if that occured, I never saw the head separate from the bike, I only paid the bills....But the bike does run fine these days and I've no plans of running a scope through the spark plugs to confirm or deny. But I completely agree, that it's good for the community as a whole to identify/define cause as a learning moment. Poop happens. IMO opinion, if you can throw money at a problem and it goes away, it wasn't that big of a problem. I can confirm, that even though the bike was a couple months new to me, and I was out of riding for 5 years, the bike ran fine for 2500 miles. I'm sure during that time, as I became more comfortable with riding a larger/heavier/more powerful bike that I certainly ran it through the upper RPM range at various times and more than once...I'm kinda big on knowing limits and capability of things without hitting the This is Spinal Tap's infamous "11". I have "kissed" the RPM limiter on a couple occasions, but never at a WOT, hard SMACK.
 
NYbiomed said:
  I can confirm, that even though the bike was a couple months new to me, and I was out of riding for 5 years, the bike ran fine for 2500 miles. I'm sure during that time, as I became more comfortable with riding a larger/heavier/more powerful bike that I certainly ran it through the upper RPM range at various times and more than once...I'm kinda big on knowing limits and capability of things... I have kissed the rpm limiter in a couple occasions...
Click to expand...

  This statement, and 2500 miles worth of event - free riding would eliminate the possibility of an improperly installed / timed cam in my mind. 
  Steve
 
rcannon409 said:
I know this is an old thread, but It was a good one.  Well, not so good for the guys who had the issue, but "good " as in interesting.

I think Ivan gives a good explanation as to a  cause, in this thread. 

http://forum.cog-online.org/ivan's-performance-products/vvt-variable-valve-timing-dyno-tests/

More info available on his web site.

http://www.ivansperformanceproducts.com/ZG1400_vvt.htm
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, for him and you,

You are both wrong. Another internet diagnosis that isn't!!!

Matt

FYI: EVERY SINGLE time I perform a valve adjustment on a bike it is taken for a SEVERAL mile test ride at higher and lower speeds, and run through the gears, NOT GENTLY, but not abusively. An out of time camshaft would have been IMMEDIATELY evident to anyone with my 25 plus years of mechanical experience.
 
Since my bike was the other example Ivan cites i'd like to throw in my 2 cents worth. I am still searching for diagnosis and Ivan's VVT post certainly caight my attention. But as far as I can tell all eight intake valves appear normal. Of course the heads still on the cyl and all I can see are the stems and keepers but all look fine whereas on the  ex side two valves have dropped their keepers loose and the shims scared; two other ex valve stems were poking up. Based on this if there was intake valve damage I think there would be some sign on the intake side. My damage occurred only 500 miles after valve adjustment but 300 of those miles were hard sport riding keeping up with a tweaked R1, seeing plenty of 9000 rpm accelerations. Admittedly no redline. And the bike was running great, felt smooth and strong.

I am not saying my failure was not due to my error, I still think that is likely but does not seem to be a mistimed chain.
 
lather said:
My damage occurred only 500 miles after valve adjustment but 300 of those miles were hard sport riding keeping up with a tweaked R1, seeing plenty of 9000 rpm accelerations. Admittedly no redline. And the bike was running great, felt smooth and strong.
Click to expand...

  Again, based on the owners assessment of his riding style prior to failure (certainly over 50% throttle), it would appear to me that an incorrectly installed intake cam was NOT the cause of this failure, at least as far as over advance from the vvt would be concerned.

  Steve
 
NYbiomed said:
Well, I did have pics of gallng of the head and a sheared VVT, (can no longer locate pics from 2 phones ago) but I cannot recall pics of bent valves or of pristine pistons? IDK if that occured, I never saw the head separate from the bike, I only paid the bills....But the bike does run fine these days and I've no plans of running a scope through the spark plugs to confirm or deny. But I completely agree, that it's good for the community as a whole to identify/define cause as a learning moment. Poop happens. IMO opinion, if you can throw money at a problem and it goes away, it wasn't that big of a problem. I can confirm, that even though the bike was a couple months new to me, and I was out of riding for 5 years, the bike ran fine for 2500 miles. I'm sure during that time, as I became more comfortable with riding a larger/heavier/more powerful bike that I certainly ran it through the upper RPM range at various times and more than once...I'm kinda big on knowing limits and capability of things without hitting the This is Spinal Tap's infamous "11". I have "kissed" the RPM limiter on a couple occasions, but never at a WOT, hard SMACK.
Click to expand...


The cam timing scenario was hypothetical, and put out there by me to elicit responses... just to get people talking about this particular case and it worked... This is because the information here for the cause of VVT actuator failure didn't make sense to me. So I did some research about VVT actuators with KMC and what I could find on the web... This revealed nothing as KMC has no record of authorizing or receiving a request for a VVT actuator under warranty/extended warranty ever since the bike's inception. There are no records on the web that I could find discussing it's failure either
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

This is my opinion on what most likely happened here....

The way that enough force could be put against the VVT actuator to cause it to get damaged and internally tear out of it's locating slot at the end of the cam would be if the cam seized in the head for any reason.

1) The resulting smeared aluminum from the seizure would block the oil supply to the cam journal, causing damage to the head and cam. How long this would take would depend on how far off the cam cap to camshaft clearance was.... sometimes things that are wrong, don't fail immediately

2 )The resistance to cam rotation caused by the seizure would then cause the oil to be squeezed out of the VVT actuator as it moves internally until it contacts the end of its travel.... then continues to twist and tear out and damage the locating slot where it mates to the camshaft..... All this being forced by the cam chain from the running engine.

The cause of this happening would most likely be from either mixing up the numbered cam caps (not possible on this bike due to the cam sensor), or one or more of their locating dowel pins being missing, (fell out during assembly)

Something as simple as a cam cap bolt that was left loose or over-tightened...

(Any of the above will cause improper cam to cap clearance/alignment)

A missing dowel pin from one of the caps will 100% for sure cause an alignment/clearance problem and will eventually cause a seizure on the journal that is closest to it. I've seen this firsthand on many of the bikes that I have serviced in the last 35 years that had engine/valvetrain problems due to poor assembly by someone else.... some of them just had some galling, but did not completely seize and block the oil supply.

Improperly installed/damaged oil supply pipes/o-rings could also cause a lack of oil to the journal.

Whatever caused the seizure is speculative at this point, but to me it's the only explanation that makes sense.

As a shop owner, and working on all types of motorcycles for 40 years, you get exposed to, and see/repair a lot of stuff...

A mistake in workmanship is the responsibility of the mistake maker... accountability for the mistake is always a subjective opinion.



Either way... the VVT actuator is not the cause... it's the result.... and it certainly didn't fail from a high rpm shift based on Rick's description of the conditions at the time of failure.

It's too bad that Rick never got his old parts back so he could have gotten a 2nd opinion from another shop..




Ivan
 

Attachments

  • destroyed cam journal.jpg
    destroyed cam journal.jpg
    244 KB · Views: 78
  • camcap_missing dowel pin.jpg
    camcap_missing dowel pin.jpg
    50 KB · Views: 80
Ivan_ipp said:
The cam timing scenario was hypothetical, and put out there by me to elicit responses... just to get people talking about this particular case and it worked...


Ivan
Click to expand...


  This is simply not true.

  This was posted for a very simple reason. You have a page on your website about vvt control, and you're trying to use these threads about top end failure to support your claim that the failure has nothing to do with  vvt... so therefore folks shouldn't be afraid to high rpm their concours.  THIS thread is even currently linked on that page to support your position.

  OTOH, I have expressed grave concerns that the weight of the vvt module and the amount of energy it carries at redline could be a failure point when c-14's are redlined and upshifted one to many times. That whole "reciprocating mass" problem that happens at high rpm.

    Experimenting with our own bikes is one thing, experimenting with someone else's when they will have to bear the financial burden of a failure just isn't acceptable to me.

  Steve
 
Ivan,
" or possibly a different shorter length bolt that doesn't bottom in the head and crushes/deforms the cam cap when tightened"
I've never known of a design that depended on a bolt (except specialty shoulder bolts) bottoming to set a clearance or of a dowel pin being used for anything other than alignment. Yes clearance can be effected if alignment is skewed but setting clearance is not the function of the pin.
  My background includes Gas Turbine Overhaul (Depot Level), Journeyman Machinist and all-around (sometimes) idiot :motonoises: Oh yeah, Land Speed Record Holder.
 
This whole scenario will certainly lessen the helpfulness towards other forum members problems. Help someone out, something happens, it's your fault.
 
Not at all. The vast majority here are really good people who offer either firsthand experience or good sound advice. Some are highly experienced, especially with the C10 and C14. However whenever someone claims to be a “World Renowned” mechanic most everyone pays attention to what they say. That is until they say something that could cause another to damage their bike. At that point someone who knows better will jump in and attempt to correct the error. Sometimes we, especially me, can be overly blunt. If the conversation becomes acidic, political or contains personal attacks then the moderator will contact the offender or lock the thread with a notification explaining why they have done so.
Everyone has an opinion and sometimes they conflict but I have found this forum to be populated by genuinely good people. Opinions are just that. Don’t take them as personal attacks and unless you intentionally give bad advice it’s not your fault. We are all responsible for our own actions here. Including the advice we choose to follow and whatever work we perform.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top