• Can't post after logging to the forum for the first time... Try Again - If you can't post in the forum, sign out of both the membership site and the forum and log in again. Make sure your COG membership is active and your browser allow cookies. If you still can't post, contact the COG IT guy at IT@Concours.org.
  • IF YOU GET 404 ERROR: This may be due to using a link in a post from prior to the web migration. Content was brought over from the old forum as is, but the links may be in error. If the link contains "cog-online.org" it is an old link and will not work.

Heart of a Ninja?

G

GRR125

Member
Member
"The Kawasaki Concours14 ABS motorcycle features the heart of a Ninja ZX™-14R sportbike" - Total Motorcycle
"Concours 14... based on the mighty Ninja ZX-14" - Rider
"...ZX14-based engine" - Road Runner
"...ZX-14-based engine" - Motorcyclist Online

We've all heard the idea above, although I didn't find any such comment in either the Wik article nor the extensive write up in WebBikeWorld. Is it true or just a myth we want to accept?

I was curious, so did some research using parts data for a 2011 ZG and 2011 ZX14. Since I was only interested in the idea that the engines shared much in common, I looked at only the engine parts, but included the ignition system, fuel tank, air cleaner, oil cooler and radiator.

What I found was that the ZG engine and associated systems have about 62% in comon with the corresponding ZX14 engine. Both lists are very similar and consist of about 600 parts, ignoring some duplicate small stuff like screws, washers, etc.

If purchased separately, this list would cost $40,600. So buying a wrecked bike for parts is a better deal.

Qty of ZX PNQty of Shared w ZGShared %
Balancer1111
100%​
Fuel Pump44
100%​
Ignition System87
88%​
Gear Change Mechanism1412
86%​
Oil Pump1412
86%​
Starter Motor3429
85%​
Gear Change Drum1311
85%​
Throttle2722
81%​
Valves5039
78%​
Water Pipe3727
73%​
Crankcase2216
73%​
Fuel Injection1712
71%​
Oil Pan138
62%​
Cylinder Head Cover106
60%​
Cylinder Head159
60%​
Camshaft169
56%​
Clutch3317
52%​
Generator84
50%​
Transmission3718
49%​
Engine Covers4822
46%​
Clutch Master Cylinder3211
34%​
Crankshaft190
0%​
Oil Cooler86
75%​
Air Cleaner3521
60%​
Fuel Tank5028
56%​
Radiator239
39%​
Total598370
62%​
 
I'm confused;
What do you mean by "Qty of" ?
To me, the part assemblies are shared in both bikes or they're not.
For instance;

Clutch (You sed)3317
Clutch (I'd say Clutch Assembly) Not the same or may be used in a C-14 with modifications.

If you're including the ZX-14 and the ZX-14R.
(Their different motors/different displacement and a ZG-14 is more similar to the ZX-14)

Are you considering buying a wrecked ZX-14 and change out the parts?
Some will fit. Some will fit w/modifications. Some won't fit.

Also; You didn't include headers, throttle bodies, injectors etc.
Those are a big part of the power difference, and most will fit.
But may require some modifications to fit/work well in a C-14.
 
Last edited:
Sorry - I should have been more clear about what I was showing.

First, I compared "parts data for a 2011 ZG and 2011 ZX14."

I looked only at parts that have part numbers in the factory parts diagrams. I may have ignored some of the small stuff.

The first column of figures I listed shows the number of part numbers for that group (row) in the 2011 ZX14 parts diagram. For example the Ignition System Group lists 8 parts. The second column shows the quantity of identical part numbers listed for the same group for the 2011 ZG14, i.e. 7. In other words, 7 of the 8 part numbers are identical. That is, 88% of the ZX14 parts in the Ignition System group are shared with (identical to) the ZG14.

As I said, the engine parts data represent nearly 600 part numbers, which I summarized for brevity into the component groups listed, which are as identified by Kawasaki. Thus you won't find every possible part in this summary list.

Since you asked - throttle bodies are in the Fuel Injection Group; injectors are in the Fuel Injection Group. You are welcome to consult any factory diagram to see if a particular part of interest is included that group.

The final total shows that 62% of 2011 ZX14 engine parts can be found in the 2011 SG14. Notably, they do not share the same crankcase, so I think its inaccurate to say the ZG14 has a ZX14-based engine. But they share enough design, engineering, parts and legacy to say the ZG has the soul of the ZX14.
 
"How long did it take to compile all of this?"
Not too long. I may have spent 30 mins on this.
I was just curious to see how accurate the claim was. Similar to the question of how much a Made in America vehicle is actually made here.
 
The ZG1400 platform is built around the VVT system, so yes, there are many similar but very different parts. VVT is an oil pressure driven system, thus the significant differences...
 
Can the head be swapped? Can the pistons and rods be swapped out? If it were possible how much money in parts would it cost approximately? Labor cost by a qualified mechanic? Any idea? What would the gains be?
 
Awhile back, a member built a 200+ HP C-14 (using the Connie Engine/not ZX).
So, we know that you can build a ZG engine to whatever you want.
(Less work than making a ZX engine fit the Connie Tranny)

"BUT",,, He discovered that the frame isn't built for that much HP.
(Cracked at the left swingarm pivot point / possibly due to the loading from the driveshaft)

Bottom line; Boosting the engine HP has other limitations to consider.

Ride safe, Ted
 
connie_rider said:
Awhile back, a member built a 200+ HP C-14 (using the Connie Engine/not ZX).
So, we know that you can build a ZG engine to whatever you want.
(Less work than making a ZX engine fit the Connie Tranny)

"BUT",,, He discovered that the frame isn't built for that much HP.
(Cracked at the left swingarm pivot point / possibly due to the loading from the driveshaft)

Bottom line; Boosting the engine HP has other limitations to consider.

Ride safe, Ted
Click to expand...
One thing leads to another.😉😎
 
Bud said:
One thing leads to another.😉😎
Click to expand...
I saw the thread where the swing arm lever system pivot point got a bit of engineered improvement. I would think that fixing the weak link would be good thing to do. Its like taking over where Kawasaki left off. Also... Has anybody turbocharged a Connie?
 
I know of 3 that were turbocharged in the early C-14's.
The result on all were broken pistons.
As I recall;
The ZX-14 pistons didn't fit a C-14 and may or may not be forged replacements.
The cure was custom forged pistons.
 
I am curently building a 2014 zg1400 engine to put in my 2016 list of parts so far
Zx14 je 13.5/1 forged pistons stock bore
Kawasaki oem rings
07 zx14 exhaust camshaft with new matching springs
Full race port and polish head
Factory pro velocity stacks
Oil pump mod
Zx14 oil pump gear clutch basket side
2016 transmission
Pair valve ports blocked off
Full hindle zx14 4-2-1 exhaust
 
Few of my build pics so far
 

Attachments

  • 20231122_064156.jpg
    20231122_064156.jpg
    183.6 KB · Views: 15
  • 20231126_115208.jpg
    20231126_115208.jpg
    149.4 KB · Views: 15
  • 20231126_161850.jpg
    20231126_161850.jpg
    203.7 KB · Views: 15
  • 20231126_161928.jpg
    20231126_161928.jpg
    223.2 KB · Views: 15
  • 20231202_102127.jpg
    20231202_102127.jpg
    132.8 KB · Views: 15
If I read this correctly: Your increasing compression and moving the air in/out better, but not going to bigger throttle bodies/injectors?

What about fuel control? Will it be an aftermarket flash or what?

Ride safe, Ted
 
It currently has hammer tune from steve and i will be checking afr after engine install, if needed will be adjusting tune with woolrich software, and yes stock throttlebodies im not trying to build an all out max power engine, i already have 3 built race bike in my garage
 
twotones105075 said:
I am curently building a 2014 zg1400 engine to put in my 2016 list of parts so far
Zx14 je 13.5/1 forged pistons stock bore
Kawasaki oem rings
07 zx14 exhaust camshaft with new matching springs
Full race port and polish head
Factory pro velocity stacks
Oil pump mod
Zx14 oil pump gear clutch basket side
2016 transmission
Pair valve ports blocked off
Full hindle zx14 4-2-1 exhaust
Click to expand...
Please don't take this the wrong way, Your choice of Static Compression ratio is way too high for the VVT moving Dynamic compression. If you haven't already grab a book on basic engines and read up on Static vs. dynamic, & Moving Dynamic, it's a whole other sport and not easy to master on a street engine.
Final Gearing in the ZG is a low 2.036 and the bike is 700 pounds, not exactly drag bike gearing or easy to find decent timing advance.
 
I will assume you replaced the cast camshaft system with the billet already. Jeff discovered this in his build last year. I believe 08-10 has billet, and anything after that went cast. From your photos, they appear billet...Are you running the stock chain on the cams ?
 
Do you happen to know, just out of curiosity, what the numbers are on that zx ex cam? Like duration and opening and closing degrees? The zg numbers are in the service manual.
 
Hello Laker. Jeff has those. I believe you can look up his post here on the Forum and read the buildup he did last year. Just a reminder, you have to modify the ex camshaft for VVT...Sean
 
twotones105075 said:
I Have 06-07 billet zx14 exhaust camshaft, new stock cam chain, manual tensioner, compression should be right at 13.1 When all assembled, ape head std kit
Click to expand...
Twotones, please make sure your VVT cam is billet. After a closer look, I believe it may be cast..Just my observation..
 
Jeff.C said:
Did not read anywhere in your build posting, are you doing away with the VVT or have figured out a way to lock the phasing mechanism to arrive at this pre determined calculation?

Thanks
Jeff
Click to expand...
With the help of this
 

Attachments

  • Screenshot_20240131_091505_Chrome.jpg
    Screenshot_20240131_091505_Chrome.jpg
    91 KB · Views: 5
Jeff.C said:
Throw that away!! Cause it's not working it's not the software that's not working;),
I wrote one that is used in the Vtwin world that's about 90 percent correct as long as the information the user Inputs is correct.

You purchased 13.5-1 pistons wrapped them up along with those fans and sell on eBay. if you still planning to use them then those ARP studs will need to be welded to the case cause your CCR at sea level is going to be off the charts, or move to the top of Mt Everest, don't blame me cause this dude Otto figured this out almost 100 years ago ( Joking please don't hate me yet )

Static compression ratio every engine is engineered with it and we play with it to a degree, but that is not where the real running important numbers are made. it's a pretty simple concept and breaks it down as the ratio of the swept volume of the cylinder displacement to the volume above the piston at the top dead center -TDC.

Let's example pistons and a combustion chamber but the math gets kind of weird so do my best, if a hypothetical cylinder had a displacement of 450cc and a 50cc combustion chamber - plus volume over the piston crown to the head the CR would be 500/50, or 10:1. If I decided to mill the head so that the volume above the piston crown was decreased to 40cc, the CR would now be 490/40, or 12.25:1. or decide to machine the chamber out to 60cc could be by sinking the valves further into the chamber or opening the material making up around the valves, the CR would now be 510/60, or 8.5:1.

Let's dive into dynamic compression It is that place where an engine lives it's the real deal the place where you make horsepower or engine efficiency you screw up on this, and no matter how much you shake the tree of Horsepower aint chit falling out of it.

Your intake camshaft timing controls your engine's personality, let's run through a cycle, the piston reaches BDC and starts back up, the critical point as far as understanding DCR.

BDC-the intake valve is still open even though the piston is rising up up up up the bore, there is no compression :( actually occurring because of the open intake valve, it's truly really a fact no lies :)

Compression does not begin until the intake valve closes we say - IVC We like industry acronyms.
Once IVC is reached, the air-fuel mixture starts to compress. is then that the ratio of the cylinder volume at IVC over the volume above the piston at TDC represents the dynamic compression ratio.

The DCR is what the air-fuel mixture is and is what counts not the static CR. Because DCR is dependent upon IVC, cam specs have as much effect on DCR as the mechanical specifications of the motor.

Your Intake camshaft timing makes the compression if you have, A larger number or degrees your intake valve closes ABDC the less Dynamic compression your engine has as acts like a PIG, When I was a Kid in the late seventies I started working for a Guy Frank Biscollio Race engines he was the Builder on the east coast for TV Tommy Ivo, little ole me was the shop glass beader, block stripper, Hot tank bitch, them shop guys would pack the air blow guns with hand cleaner and B.B.s and shoot at me all day, Hahah there all dead and I'm still here crushing it!! the abuse back then was unbelievable in his Machine Shop until I started learning, I can't treat young ones like that today in my shop the lawyers will have you pushing a shopping cart with cans and extra undies wandering around, anyway I had a 68 GTO with a 10.75 cr Ram Air ll, super T10 four-speed and 4.33 gears car was pretty quick and would hold its own, light to light. I purchased the biggest and baddest Crane Cam ever made for a Pontiac and showed Frank and he said WTF you gonna do with that? I said build me an engine to smoke my buddies Road Runner with a 440, Long story short the car was a PIG until 90 MPH in the third gear, My dynamic compression was about 7.1 with that cam and would Idle on old Burbon!

Hopefully, you are still with me, to be honest, Steve S is a smart dude, and was hoping he would jump in guess Ole Jeff is on that Island!


DCR is much lower than static CR. Most performance street and street/track motors have DCR in the range of 8-10:20-1. With typical cams, this translates into static CR in the 10.0-12.0:1 range. Higher than this, there may be detonation problems with pump gas. Engines with little bitty cams short duration and small intake closing to promote tourq will need a lower static CR to avoid detonation cause it builds cylinder pressure, engines with large cams require a higher static ratio, but Jeff what about Intake cams attached to VVT Intake closing is always moving to go from the let's say 1 degree to 50 degrees I think a long time ago I seen specs on the Kawasaki Mitsubishi VVT advance or retard through an operating range of 23.8 degrees.

Engines with big boy racy cams have a later IVC point need and can tolerate a higher static CR. When race fuel is used, much higher DCR and static CR may be used because of the detonation resistance of the fuel. Of course, race motors also have much larger camshafts which is another reason they can get away with such high static CR, often in the 13-15:1 range.


The term Dynamic Compression some builders use it to refer to the characteristics of an engine combo running at high speed. In that case, the engine's volumetric efficiency remember it is a really important word VE will have a major effect on cylinder pressure.

In this case, a larger cam will increase cylinder pressure when within its’ rev range. Thus, more power and more cylinder pressure will be created. some guys think of this concept as cylinder pressure to avoid confusion, I just call it what it is VE.

To use a Dynamic calculator you will need to know the Concours Intake valve closing and since it moves around you will need to figure that out at different RPMs, Basically what VVT does is take one engine VE, and give it different personalities, Sort of like Me:cool:


If you want my help contact me here and will be more than happy to tell you what is going to work in this engine cause my silly ass wasted my beer and hooker money and built a few, if not Carry on my man! celentanoracingengines@yahoo.com

Not a Tuner at all, but I can dial in fuel curves at high RPM for drag racing, I prefer data logging my street bikes and using wide band auto-tune.

my ADHD takes over, and then start my shanagains seeing how long it takes before I can melt a tire at 220 MPH on the Dyno if I even roll a bike on one of the Dynos someone kills the power and pulls the circuit breaker


The length of it
These motors are octane-limited in stock form. From the factory they run low ignition timing due to the following factors:
1. 10:1 compression
2. Variable cam timing which increases dynamic compression
3. Street motor octane pump gas fuel

Below is a short list of just a few settings you will have tuners have to make in the calibration. This is more or less a twin-cam HD I think....
Stoich: 14.079
WOT base Lambda: .85 to 5K richening to .82 by 6250 (that's .82 x 14.079)
Individual cylinder timing modifier: -2 degrees from 4-7K RPM on the #8 (but not the only cylinder with reduced timing)
Octane Spark modifier: -3 degrees @ high load
Knock sensor retard max: -6 to 4K dropping to -4 by 6K
Knock sensor retard rate: 1 to 1.5 (that's seconds per degree removed), so it would take 6 seconds to remove 4 degrees at 6K RPM (at a rate of 1.5).

and there are Tons more, Kinda get a chuckle when someone buys a Tuning suite and thinks yea screw them tuners do it myself, hahaha some guys suck and some have found their calling by taking the time of understanding and adding the correct seasoning to the Soup I machined and assembled and we are grateful for them.

Sean, i wrote another Novel
Click to expand...
Thanks for your reply was some great info
 
twotones105075 said:
Ok i will find one the 08-09 was billet?
Click to expand...
Also, don't forget you have to re-work the ZX exhaust cam and machine oil feed for the VVT. Jeff did a post last year on the cam journals you must rework. He included photos and specs. WEB cams will do the work for I believe a hundred bucks. I have to check my records.
 
Jeff.C said:
Intake valve closing 75° full advance (ABDC)

The intake swings 24.3 degrees advanced or retard so we have to remove 24.3 from the below number cause the 75 degrees is in full advanced mode and as you throttle up and RPMs increase, low, and cruise cranking pressure is what we are after You turn the key push start 600 RPM the Intake valve closing is 51 degrees and stays there under small throttle inputs about 3000 RPM pressure to advance the camshaft, 51 degrees is still pretty radical in a Touring based motor
Click to expand...
Hi Jeff, it's always good to hear of your exploits especially in the mid winter dulldroms. I don't pretend to be an expert, but your statement above may be misleading, especially to folks building high compression motors, or anyone else who wants to understand how this vvt thing works. The IVC of 75° is actually at full retard, which changes your post and conclusions dramatically.

When the engine is at rest the vvt gear is locked at 75*.And remains there at idle, this makes for an easy starting and happy idle, low rpm motor. As rpm and throttle position increase the ecu starts advancing the cam towards a IVC of 51*. Timing a cam at 51* makes for a very hard to turn over engine that eats starters and associated gears.

I have built 1200cc in line Japanese motors with 14:1 static compression and they run fine. You just have to start them with an external car starter, like a real drag bike. Also without the aid of the vvt retard, for starting and high rpm running, the motor will not accelerate much past 9-10k rpm. The compression won't let it rev, so with vvt you can program the ecu to start retarding the cam around 6 or7k rpm to get the motor to rev out. Stock is 6500, the tuners available change it up to 8k or so. Also, the vvt settings are completely adjustable, so if someone was going to build a high comp motor and needed to alter the settings, it's pretty easy.


Jeff.C said:
Valve Timing:
Inlet:
Open
17° (BTDC)
Close
75° (ABDC)
Duration
272


Exhaust:
Open
52° (BBDC)
Close
22° (ATDC)
Duration
254°
Click to expand...
Do you have these numbers for the zx ex cam for comparison purposes?
 

Attachments

  • PXL_20240201_135653149.jpg
    PXL_20240201_135653149.jpg
    99.9 KB · Views: 7
Hey Laker, Good To hear from you, I purposely screwed it up, he wasn't being honest up front.
My intention was good wanting to help the guy, and while gathering the correct numbers together, he sent an email.
Closed all my social media two months ago because of baiting like this.

1706809173104.png

But will disagree to gain maximum high RPM power, delaying the intake valve closing point allows drawing more air into the cylinders at high rpm. This is why Drag race performance cams have an intake valve closing point of 60-70 Retard degrees after the bottom dead center.
 
Last edited:
Well, that's a revolting development.

Jeff.C said:
But will disagree to gain maximum high RPM power, delaying the intake valve closing point allows drawing more air into the cylinders at high rpm. This is why Drag race performance cams have an intake valve closing point of 60-70 Retard degrees after the bottom dead center.
Click to expand...
But no disagreement with this statement. delaying and retarding are the same meaning. And the Vtv retards/delays the intake valve closing to 60-70-75 degrees or whatever you want, ABDC, just like a drag cam. TO ADD: And depending on which direction you're coming from, those numbers can be achieved by advancing the cam too. Obviously.
 
Last edited:
Thanks Steve, that's a good direct comparison. I'd still like to see book numbers, but your info answers my question. Thanks again.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top