High Speed versus Static balance

[mcgyver74]

Good morning fellow Coggers

I just recieved a set of PR3's that I am going to mount next week onto my 14, in the past I've always just static balanced my tires (rod with some ball bearings and 2 jugs for it to sit on and rotate)  but the last 2 sets of tires I've had a ever so slight vibration, so I was thinking of taking the wheels in and having them balanced.. 

So what do you all do? High speed or static?

 

[Cap'n Bob]

I don't know if I have ever had high speed on a motorcycle tire or not.  But I normally static balance mine with no troubles what so ever. Well unless the tire started wearing funny down the road or something.

 

[willyp]

Dyna beads for me... the ultimate spin balance!

 

[ddtmoto]

At the track, tire companies use good old gravity/static balancing. Good for 200mph plus in the big boy's world. For a year now I have gone with 'Ride on' in the PR3's on my 14. More for the security of puncture sealing, but the self balancing is so very nice. Four rear flats in two years really bites. I had the front apart this week to replace a TPMS sender, with a low battery. I was glad to see no adverse affects, as advertized, to the rim, so far.

 

[mcgyver74]

In that case I'll just static her up again and call it a day    


Glad that Rideon works for you, but I've read too many horror stories for me to be comfortable with anything like that (slime/ride on etc)  Plus I wonder what over time it would do to the TPMS.....

 

[ddtmoto]

Yep, same concerns that I have. I use two sets of tires a season, at least, so I have things apart often to check.. So far things are good..

 

[budcallaghan]

Good morning fellow Coggers

I just recieved a set of PR3's that I am going to mount next week onto my 14, in the past I've always just static balanced my tires (rod with some ball bearings and 2 jugs for it to sit on and rotate)  but the last 2 sets of tires I've had a ever so slight vibration, so I was thinking of taking the wheels in and having them balanced.. 

So what do you all do? High speed or static?

It's something of a crap shoot either way.  Take it to a shop for a spin balance and the gamble involves a number of variables; the quality of the balancing machine and its degree of accuracy, the ability of the person using said machine, this person's degree of integrity, said integrity is influenced by how much time he has been allotted to perform the task, his current mental attitude, etcetera.  The tire may emerge from the operation in perfect balance and then again it may not.

Doing it yourself using the static method is almost wholly dependent on the equipment you have to do the job.  You said, "(rod with some ball bearings and 2 jugs for it to sit on and rotate)".  This is a real can of worms.  The diameter of the rod must be same as that of the axle to insure it being exactly centered in the wheel.  The bearings on the rod must fit the ends of the rod perfectly and lastly the rod must dead on straight.  The bearings must be ball bearings that are in good shape and they must be able to rotate with as little friction as possible.  Frictionless, or nearly frictionless bearings, can only be achieved it they are not sealed bearings as the seals provide drag.  They must not contain any grease as it also creates drag.  This is what I do to make my bearings as free of drag as I think is possible.  I use fairly large bearings and degrease them using solvent, then using a spray attachment on my compressor I get them thoroughly clean by spraying them with clean solvent and finally blow away all solvent residue.  Lastly I spray them with WD40 and then blow nearly all of that with compressed air.  This last step I do every time I use the bearings. 

Finally, whatever do you mean by 2 jugs?  To continue with the frictionless as possible theme, the bearings must be supported accurately to preclude any side load.  That means that their supports must be of the same height and on the same plane. 

If the system employed to static balance the tire fits the criteria cited, then you can achieve a very high degree of accuracy.  If not, the resulting balance job won't be anywhere near satisfying your desire.

The weights used are also to be considered.  There are weights that snap on the center rib that exists on most cast wheels.  These are the least desirable because they have to be placed between the spokes.  That's terrific is they need to be placed there but just as likely as not they may need to be placed where the spokes intrude.  I use flat, stick on weights that can be placed anywhere.  These weights can also be trimmed to afford the exact weight desired. 

I have been using the static balance method for all of my vehicles for more than fifty years and recommend this method only to those of you who can make or acquire the proper tools to do the job.  Below are photos of some of my balancing tools.  Unfortunately for most of you, none of them are attainable without a lathe and/or a welder.  However, there are commercial variations available.  I can't personally vouch for any of them though. 

All of the foregoing is simply a report of my opinion based on empirical evidence garnered over more than sixty years of experience.  I started working in my father's tire shop when I was 8.  I have always changed my own tires, be it bicycle, car, truck or motorcycle and balanced them myself.  Anyone with other methods and opinions should feel free to offer them as this is a question everyone needs to address with every tire change.

 

[tundra tom]

Mark Parnes Static balancing system is fantastic. Myself and several others on the forum use it on a wide variety of Motorcycles.
http://www.marcparnes.com/Buyers_Guide.htm

As moto mentioned static balancing has been used at race tracks for years. The large factory tire suppliers will use automated machines to speed up the process.

 

[budcallaghan]

Mark Parnes Static balancing system is fantastic. Myself and several others on the forum use it on a wide variety of Motorcycles.
http://www.marcparnes.com/Buyers_Guide.htm

As moto mentioned static balancing has been used at race tracks for years. The large factory tire suppliers will use automated machines to speed up the process.

Of all the commercially produced static balancers I have seen, this appears to be the best.  If I did not have the tools and time to produce my own, this is the product I would purchase.  His explanation of the various tire balancing methods is well written and factual.  I cannot fault any of his opinions as I agree with what he has written.  Thanks for providing this information Tom.

 

[millsan1]

I static balance mine with a harbor freight balancer and have not had any problems and have traveled at 130+ mph without noticing anything.

 

[mcgyver74]

The balancer I have is a rod with 2 ball bearings (looks similar to the parnes balancer)  it doesn't fit the center of the bearing exactly but it is close...  The bearings sit on anything on either end (I've used hard metal gas can jugs)  but the mark parnes is looking like it may be more accurate...

 

[ripper]

I purchased the monster balancer from Nomar. Because
I am going to use it on my van also. I have had no balance
problems. So far I have put on two rear. Tomorrow I am
putting on a front. I'll post the results in a few days

 

[midlifecrisis]

Dynamic balancing is more important on wider automotive wheels that may have axial imbalance.  That is, across the width of the rim.  Static balance only takes care of the radial imbalance, that is around the circumference of the rim.  This is why sometimes you see weights placed on the inside edge of the the rim as well as on the outside edge.

Motorcycle tires are typically not wide enough to need dynamic balancing.

 

[ripper]

I purchased the monster balancer from Nomar. Because
I am going to use it on my van also. I have had no balance
problems. So far I have put on two rear. Tomorrow I am
putting on a front. I'll post the results in a few days

No problems with the front balance. Guess the static works

 

[mcgyver74]

Yeah I'm going to try the better static balancer and see how it does

 

[peter2011c14]

The Parnes balancer does look very nice and I have been considering getting one.

I have been mounting some of my tires and balancing them by using the axle, and placing it across the backs of two chairs.  I use rubber shims where the axle rests on the chair to level it.

I have not had and vibration or problems. 

Peter

 

[budcallaghan]

The Parnes balancer does look very nice and I have been considering getting one.

I have been mounting some of my tires and balancing them by using the axle, and placing it across the backs of two chairs.  I use rubber shims where the axle rests on the chair to level it.

I have not had and vibration or problems. 

Peter

I think this would be a wise decision Peter.  There are problems to be encountered by using the axle and the wheel's bearings - see my earlier post as I have already covered this subject with some degree of thoroughness.  One cannot always feel the imbalance present in a tire but the additional load on the bearings and the heavy portion of the tire will remain until balance is achieved.  As I said, the Parnes balancer would be my choice if I had not already made my own.

 

[peter2011c14]

Bud - From my experience, there is minimal drag and the process seems to show the condition of the wheel bearings.  Are you saying the weight of the wheel on the axle when suspended can cause damage?  Your post addressed using a metal rod and bearings, but not using the axle and the bearings in the wheel?

I gently spin the wheel to find the heavy spot(s) and with minimal force, it can spin for quite a while when close to, or in balance.  After adding the weight, I then spin it VERY gently to see that it comes to rest at different places, as well is just moving it 90 degrees or so, and checking that it stays where I place it.

I use the stick on weights also, that come in 7gm sections.  I have also trimmed them to get more precision. 

I have had weights (placed by a dealer on the outer edge instead of where centrifugal force keeps them in place) fly off, and imbalance was felt immediately.  I've never had a wheel that I balanced feel out of balance.

I envy your machining capabilities as it must be satisfying to build the tools you need.  I am a bit confused by your bearing cleaning process.  After you clean them with the WD-40, I would think a fine layer of oil would create less friction?

Peter

 

[mcgyver74]

I just ordered a Mark Parnes Balancer...Will let you all know how it works

 

[budcallaghan]

Bud - From my experience, there is minimal drag and the process seems to show the condition of the wheel bearings.  Are you saying the weight of the wheel on the axle when suspended can cause damage?  Your post addressed using a metal rod and bearings, but not using the axle and the bearings in the wheel?
I gently spin the wheel to find the heavy spot(s) and with minimal force, it can spin for quite a while when close to, or in balance.  After adding the weight, I then spin it VERY gently to see that it comes to rest at different places, as well is just moving it 90 degrees or so, and checking that it stays where I place it.
I use the stick on weights also, that come in 7gm sections.  I have also trimmed them to get more precision. 
I have had weights (placed by a dealer on the outer edge instead of where centrifugal force keeps them in place) fly off, and imbalance was felt immediately.  I've never had a wheel that I balanced feel out of balance.
I envy your machining capabilities as it must be satisfying to build the tools you need.  I am a bit confused by your bearing cleaning process.  After you clean them with the WD-40, I would think a fine layer of oil would create less friction?
Peter

Peter,
No, I don't say that anything is being damaged by the weight of the wheel when suspended.  I arrived at my method of static balancing way back when a 650 was considered a big bike and was called a 40 incher and a Harley 74 was the biggest bike of all.  I have used the axle to balance tires and have also found some of them to be less than straight when I put the axle in my lathe to assess its trueness.  The majority of those I have checked were straight while others varied from moderately bent to seriously bent.  Steel rod or steel axle, they have to be straight to allow accurate balancing.  If you look at the pictures I posted you'll see that I use the front axle to balance my old Yamaha 1100.  But I don't rely on the wheel's bearings.  I use spacers and larger, very well cleaned and very lightly lubricated ball bearings.  I also verify that the axle is still straight. 

When I was a kid and didn't have any machine tools I used the axle and wheel bearing method and solder wound around the spokes in lieu of weights.  This method was good enough for that era as the bikes were really slow by today's standards and the bikes vibrated to such a degree that slightly out of balance wheels went unnoticed.  One day after mounting new tires on my 650 BSA I could see the front axle vibrating fore and aft at 60 mph or faster, but I didn't notice it other than visually.  I removed the wheel and took the axle to a friend's house and used his lathe to see if it was straight.  It was, so I then figured there must be some friction elsewhere causing false readings.  I removed the wheel bearings and using cleaning solvent washed all traces of grease from them.  They were sealed bearings so I had to remove the dust seals to expose the bearings to get the grease out.  I oiled the bearings using the lightest oil I could find and then blew out the excess.  The clean and very lightly lubricated bearings were then put in the wheel and the straight axle inserted with the whole shebang supported on a level plane with a pair of V blocks.  I rebalanced the tire, greased the bearings, replaced the dust seals and reassembled the bike.  When I took it for a ride there was no visual evidence of any imbalance.  That's when I determined that you can get them close but not spot on when grease is present to afford a light drag.  To properly static balance a tire you need bearings that will spin with the least friction possible. 

Some commercially available static balancers use four bearings and a rod and cones to center the wheel and the one made by Mr. Parnes uses two bearings.  In my opinion, two bearings offer less friction than four and such a system is therefore preferable.  I have never seen his product, just seen it on the Internet and read his statement that verifies the integrity of the materials he uses and testifies to his knowledge of the subject.  I have seen the balancer offered by Harbor Freight and it is not a quality item.  I'll repeat that were I unable to make my own balancers using dead on straight rods and bearings that offer the lightest friction, I would do business with Mr. Parnes as I see his product to be as close to what I have been using for many decades.  Lastly, if using a set of cones such as his, I would be insure the cones were oriented with the set screws at 180 degrees to offset any imbalance they might impart.

As for the WD40, when the solvent in it evaporates the remainder is a very light lubricant.

 

[peter2011c14]

As for the WD40, when the solvent in it evaporates the remainder is a very light lubricant.

Thanks for the explanation.  I've found WD-40 to be better for cleaning than lubrication.  Funny as the name may be, Marvel Mystery oil has proven to be an excellent lubricant and for machine tools Starrett mineral oil works well.

Peter

 

[budcallaghan]

As for the WD40, when the solvent in it evaporates the remainder is a very light lubricant.

Thanks for the explanation.  I've found WD-40 to be better for cleaning than lubrication.  Funny as the name may be, Marvel Mystery oil has proven to be an excellent lubricant and for machine tools Starrett mineral oil works well.

Peter

You're right Peter.  It doesn't matter what you use for a lubricant as long as it has a very low viscosity.  I just happen to use WD40 as it both cleans the bearings and lubricates them for
the short time they're used before going back in the plastic bag for storage until I need them again.  Hell, WD40 hadn't been invented when I cleaned and lubed that BSA's bearings.  I used cleaning solvent, compressed air to blow away the solvent and then 3-in-1 oil for lubrication.  When WD40 arrived on the scene in the early '60's I began using it for this task as it fulfilled both roles to adequately suit my needs.  Because the bearings are liable to be on the shelf for a long time between uses, the 3-in-1 oil would tend to slowly become more viscous and have to be cleaned with solvent and re-oiled before again being used.   

 

[bergmen]

I have had dynamically imbalanced wheels with proper static balancing. The problem I had was the result of all of the balancing weights applied to one side of the rim. This produced a slight (very slight) wobble at freeway speeds (and above).

Dividing the weight evenly on each side solved it. This was on a ZRX 17" front wheel.

Dan

 

[cablebandit]

I just ordered a Mark Parnes Balancer...Will let you all know how it works

It almost works too good.  You could spend all day chasing a hundredth of an ounce if you the anal type.

 

[tundra tom]

I just ordered a Mark Parnes Balancer...Will let you all know how it works

It almost works too good.  You could spend all day chasing a hundredth of an ounce if you the anal type.

Sometimes you just have to call it "close enough". You can re-use weights by stripping the adhesive and taping with 3M out door double back tape. Clean the rim area with rubbing alcohol and let the adhesive set up over night before riding.
Another tip for using less weight is balance the rim prior to mounting the tire and find the heaviest point, not always the valve stem area, especially on spoked rims. Most tires are marked with a "O" to indicate the lightest point, line this up to your mark when mounting the tire on the rim. Ruglyde from NAPA makes mounting/removing rubber SOOO much easier.

 

[cablebandit]

Sometimes you just have to call it "close enough". You can re-use weights by stripping the adhesive and taping with 3M out door double back tape. Clean the rim area with rubbing alcohol and let the adhesive set up over night before riding.
Another tip for using less weight is balance the rim prior to mounting the tire and find the heaviest point, not always the valve stem area, especially on spoked rims. Most tires are marked with a "O" to indicate the lightest point, line this up to your mark when mounting the tire on the rim. Ruglyde from NAPA makes mounting/removing rubber SOOO much easier.

Weights are cheap.  Use new ones and ride right away.

My tires have no such markings.

I have RU-Glyde but have gone back to good old ammonia free windex.  It's not as thick and makes much less of a mess.