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Mountain Runner - of fuel cut and other flash features...

Steve in sunny Fla

Iron Butt
Industry Vendor
    This is going to be one of those informational "the rest of the story" type posts... I hope it fills in the blanks for some who wonder about these things.

  I now have access to:
  Disable deceleration fuel cut;
  Pair valve disable;
  Fan temp control;
  VVT switching.

  So of course, the big question for me (and should be for you) is how will this affect my flashes going forward. Let me share what I know now, after some pretty exhaustive testing.

  1) Disable deceleration fuel cut. Intended to make off / on throttle transition smooth rather than jerky.  Based on all the hype, I had some real questions about this one. Here's what I can tell you, after working with it a bunch... it does not make on / off / on throttle better than I already have in the Mountain Runner flash.  Extensively tested... not better at all. On the other hand it DOES take away the off throttle deceleration I worked so hard for in Mountain Runner.  I suspected this would be the case. It also is making the shifting not as smooth. I have worked and worked at trying to like this feature, but I'm thinking it's just not going into any Mountain Runner updates. Honestly at best, fuel cut disable makes the bike feel like it's going into neutral and coasting when you let off the throttle. Not at all what I want in Mountain Runner.

  2) Pair valve disable. Intended to cut the extra air from the pair valve and help stop popping on deceleration. If you have one of my flashes, you know that's not an issue. I countered the popping with proper timing and secondary control. I will probably incorporate pair valve shut off in my flashes for no other reason than if someone wants to do a full exhaust change, or possibly fit the bike with an 02 sensor.

  3) Fan temp control. Currently, the fan comes on at 203* and off at 195*. I can go up or down in 10* increments. Personally, i think the stock setting is fine, I'm a fan of setting up the coolant system properly for heat exchange and I don't think fan switch temp is necessary or wise. I think I'll leave this as an option for the person getting the flash.

  4) VVT switching control. I won't be using this in my Mountain Runner flash, it's all about exceeding the stock redline. I will experiment with it for the  Area P full system flash. I still advise caution or RPM'ing your c-14, the VVT module weighs 1.5 POUNDS and at 10000 rpm it's spinning 5000 rpm. That's a crazy amount of energy having to be harnessed during hard upshifts or downshifts , and all the work to control it is on the timing chain and the intake cam locating dowel pin. Failures can occur here.  My advise on rpm... proceed with caution.

    As far as how I will handle updates / upgrades... if I incorporate an update to your existing flash that you want, you pay shipping and insurance of 25.00; I'll do the update for free. if you want to upgrade to a different flash, it will be 75.00 which includes shipping and insurance.

  Now on a more personal level, I am disappointed that all of the work and effort that went into getting some of these features, particularly fuel cut disable, are turning out to be "not all that". I think if this was back in the beginning with my first flash, it would have been a great addition. Not so now, with Mountain Runner. The fact is that I'm so far into this project that I've really gone "outside the box" to come up with the way Mountain Runner works. Whenever someone says "this is the only way" it's because they have become stagnant and complacent. In my case, I really had to take a step back and look at different possibilities to use the tools I had. I would not have done that if I had some of these features early on, just kind of "set it and forget it" and not take a new perspective because I wouldn't have to. So now I have mixed emotions... disappointed that all I hoped for isn't that impressive, but in a big way glad I was forced to work as hard as I did to get Mountain Runner where it is.

  As always, I want to thank y'all for the support and loyalty... you've made Shoodaben Engineering a success, and I'm thankful for that everyday.

  Steve

 

Jorge

Member
Member
Steve, thanks for taking the time and effort to answer this once and for all. I for one, couldn't imagine that a engine computer, that can respond so quickly to other inputs, would be "jerked" (pun intended) by the transition from closed throttle to open; all the other things it adjust son the fly happen so much quicker than I could ever twist the throttle. :great:

As for the O2 sensor...  closed loop feedback is (almost) always a good thing, and this would give feedback to the engine computer of how well combustion is actually taking place. Dumb it down for us mere mortals... what does it really mean for the C14?  Reduced emissions with same performance?  Increased MPG?    Better performance?  all of the above?

Thanks again!!
 

Steve in sunny Fla

Iron Butt
Industry Vendor
Jorge said:
Steve, thanks for taking the time and effort to answer this once and for all. I for one, couldn't imagine that a engine computer, that can respond so quickly to other inputs, would be "jerked" (pun intended) by the transition from closed throttle to open; all the other things it adjust son the fly happen so much quicker than I could ever twist the throttle. :great:

As for the O2 sensor...  closed loop feedback is (almost) always a good thing, and this would give feedback to the engine computer of how well combustion is actually taking place. Dumb it down for us mere mortals... what does it really mean for the C14?  Reduced emissions with same performance?  Increased MPG?    Better performance?  all of the above?

Thanks again!!

  Jorge, on the US model c-14, the 02 sensors are used only on the 15 up models. They are used to trim the a/f ratio to an average of 14.7:1 they don't trim at idle, and not at WOT. O2 sensors will help the engine get better economy, but not power performance. !4:7 is the ideal Stoic ratio for gas, (14.2 for 10% ethanol gas) so the o2 sensor is just trying to keep the ratio at Stoic, where all of the fuel is being used most efficiently. Power ratios are richer, that's why I say o2 sensors are not for power performance.

  In all models there are A/N and speed density  lookup tables for fueling.  08 and 09's have only one set of tables; 11-14's have 2 different sets, for power and eco mode; 15-up have 2 sets, but they are the same. The o2 sensor will do the adjustments necessary for each mode while in light throttle, and then under hard load will default to the static table.

  I actually have an 02 enabled flash, and it works very well. Probably more for the european customers, but it's another option.

  In my text where I mention "if someone wants to fit the bike with an 02 sensor" I'm not meaning a typical narrow band that the 15 - ups have, I meaning a wideband sensor that is very accurate and is used for tuning purposes. My bike is fitted with a wideband sensor, pre-cat, and it gives me the precise a/f reading I need to make fueling corrections to the lookup tables I mentioned previously.

Steve
 

ron203

Southeast Area Director
Member
Good question Jorge. Good answer Steve (as best I can understand it).  ;D

I guess for me this is one of those times when I'll just have to bet "on the man" who knows and whom I trust. (I hate it when that happens, but fortunately, I do in this instance).  :beerchug:
 

connie_rider

Member
Member
Steve, thanks for the update.

In my text where I mention "if someone wants to fit the bike with an 02 sensor" I'm not meaning a typical narrow band that the 15 - ups have, I meaning a wideband sensor that is very accurate and is used for tuning purposes. My bike is fitted with a wideband sensor, pre-cat, and it gives me the precise a/f reading I need to make fueling corrections to the lookup tables I mentioned previously.

I'm glad you sed that.
I just happened to install a port (post collector) on my ZX-14 header project last month. {for checking the AFR}
Maybe "someday" we can do some runs to see what it sez???  >:D

Ride safe, Ted
 

C14lvr

Street Cruiser
Hey Steve,
I'm sorry if you've already posted the answers to these questions before and I've missed the post...

But, what are the comparison differences between your EVO flash & Mountain Runner flash?
Are there any advantages to change flashes for someone, say...like me who lives mostly in flatland America, and travels a few times per year to the Arkansas twisties?

Would it be worth reflashing?
I'm pretty happy with your EVO... no complaints. Just wondering...
Thanks for all your efforts striving for the best.
Bob
 

Steve in sunny Fla

Iron Butt
Industry Vendor
C14lvr said:
Hey Steve,
I'm sorry if you've already posted the answers to these questions before and I've missed the post...

But, what are the comparison differences between your EVO flash & Mountain Runner flash?
Are there any advantages to change flashes for someone, say...like me who lives mostly in flatland America, and travels a few times per year to the Arkansas twisties?

Would it be worth reflashing?
I'm pretty happy with your EVO... no complaints. Just wondering...
Thanks for all your efforts striving for the best.
Bob

  Bob, I built the Evolution flash to my likings, here in Florida. There was an occasional person with the Evolution flash who wished for more deceleration in mountainous and aggressive twisty riding. I actually selected those most critical of Evolution to be my beta testers. I was also looking for an even smoother power delivery transitioning from deceleration to acceleration. Mountain runner is the result of satisfying not just my riding needs, but those who do ride in the mountains regularly.  Mountain Runner was built from the Evolution flash, with all the work being done from 10% throttle down to closed throttle. It decelerates with more authority than Evolution, and comes back on throttle like a carbureted bike, very predictably. So far it's been a big hit.

  Would it be worth it to reflash to Mountain Runner? That's up to you and your needs. If you like Evolution, it's a great flash and will serve you well. If you find the features in Mountain Runner as attractive, then you're answering the question for yourself.  :great:

  Steve
 

C14lvr

Street Cruiser
Thanks for the info, Steve.
I'm very happy with my EVO flash.
I'll probably stick with it, then.

Thanks for taking the time to share more details about it!
Bob
 

smokin

Training Wheels
Thanks again Steve for the opportunity to have the Mountain Runner installed on the "Dream Catcher" and to be part of your development process.
 
5

56taskforce

Guest
Guest
I have ordered a Mt.Runner flash and had a great enlightening conversation with Steve in the process. I can't wait to feel the effect of this flash for myself. Though hearing others rave and then talking with Steve it is obvious that Steve sees the big picture and possesses an incredible ability to gather, process and put into practical use huge amounts of information, Steve is a true scientist, I already know I will not be disappointed.
 
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