• Can't post after logging to the forum for the first time... Try Again - If you can't post in the forum, sign out of both the membership site and the forum and log in again. Make sure your COG membership is active and your browser allow cookies. If you still can't post, contact the COG IT guy at IT@Concours.org.
  • IF YOU GET 404 ERROR: This may be due to using a link in a post from prior to the web migration. Content was brought over from the old forum as is, but the links may be in error. If the link contains "cog-online.org" it is an old link and will not work.

New Owner Suspension Setup

N

nunzo

Training Wheels
Got a break in the weather in Ohio this past Saturday and I rode 180 mikes around Amish Country.  Luckily I brought tools to try to set up the suspension.  The first 25 miles down the freeway was brutal.  Every expansion joint rocked me like I was riding on bricks.  I backed the air pressure down from 43 to 41 (helped a little) and backed off on the front forks and reset the damepning?.  I softened the rear preload and it heped a little.  At 220# with all gear, what setup provides the right amount of handling?

Incidentally, I measured the fork threads using a digital caliber and it was originally setup at 16 mm.

Who has mastered the perfect setup suitable for highway and backroad carving, if there is such a thing?

Thanks
 
Do start here...  http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php/topic,35183.0.html

Getting your front and rear "sag" settings right is the first step... that gets your preload where it needs to be for your weight + riding gear. Then, make systematic adjustments to your rebound damping to dial in the ride quality you prefer.

Keeping your tire pressure at the recommended 42 psi is the majority opinion.

The ride you want while droning on the 'slab is very different from the feel you'll want when "carving it up", therefore you will find a compromise that suits your overall style of riding and capabilities. It is hard to offer "absolute" set-up numbers that will be "perfect" for a given rider... join COG and start receiving the Concourier, which has great articles on these topics from time to time.
:)
 
Try this:

Assuming linear intervals this is how I estimated initial settings for 200-210 pound rider/gear combo, but you should be able to calculate some initial settings for your weight based on the interval information provided. Fred or somebody should be able to verify or reject my findings.


Front
  Spring Preload
              Set sag using procedure mention in earlier posts, use
              the lined adjustment nuts to fine tune to around 35mm of sag.

  Rebound Damping
      Turn fully clockwise to zero    [300 pound rider]
      Then turn 3 clicks counterclockwise  [210 pound rider/gear combo]

      Default - 5 clicks for 150 pound rider (-30 pounds per click ccw)
        *lower is heavier, stiffer, etc.

Rear
  Rebound Damping
      Turn fully clockwise to zero  [300 pound rider]
      Then turn 3/4 turns counterclockwise for  [210 pound rider/gear combo]
 
      Default - 1 1/4 turns for 150 pound rider (-30 pounds per 1/4 turn ccw)
        *lower is heavier, stiffer, etc.
               

  Rear Spring Preload
      Turn fully counterclockwise to zero
      Then turn dial 16 clicks clockwise  (16 x 12.5 = 200 pounds)

      Default - 12 clicks for 150 pound rider (12.5 pounds per click cw)
        *higher is heavier, stiffer, etc.
               
I and a bike mechanic friend followed accepted procedures to set my suspension before I showed him the settings I calculated. Believe it or not, all of the my calculations well dead on for the initial settings. I rode the bike around a little and made one adjustment to the rear preload 1/4 turn softer.

I would like for someone to check my method to see if it really works.
 
Your damping adjustments assume a linear change.....that is very unlikely because the adjusters are using a tapered needle to block oil flow through a circular opening and each "click"  that pushes the needle further into that opening is going to have a greater effect on the oil flow than the previous "click".
 
mcrider007 said:
Your damping adjustments assume a linear change.....that is very unlikely because the adjusters are using a tapered needle to block oil flow through a circular opening and each "click" is going to have a greater effect on the oil flow than the previous "click".
Click to expand...

I agree. There is no "formula" you can apply to suspension settings. The only way to find out what works best for you is through trial and error, and you have be attuned to what each adjustment changes so you know what effects to look for when you ride it. The first step is to get the pre-load on the spring correct for your weight. Then you adjust damping to what suits you and your riding style. What may be good for one rider, may be all wrong for another.

I like to tell tell folks to adjust the damping adjuster to both ends of the scale, full soft, and then full hard, and ride it both ways so they have an idea of what the impact is. Then once they understand how the adjuster affects the ride and suspension, they can put it back to the middle value and try to "dial it in" for their own preferences. And they need to do this process one at a time for both the front and rear damping adjusters. Also be aware that changes to the rear damping will affect the front end of the bike, and vice-versa. You have to treat the suspension as a "whole system", so any changes to one end will effect the other. Be prepared to spend some time getting your bike set up the way you want it, and record your results, as they will change with temperature, load, and road conditions. You'll want a reference to come back to in a year from now so you remember what both your setting and results were, otherwise you'll have to start all over.
 
Three of the settings are fairly linear, the front preload is not. The "formula" is just to set a starting point. What I was asking is for you and others who have set your suspension to check your settings against the formula to see how close the three settings actually are to your final solution. I know that you will tweak it to your riding style, but I am pretty sure that the "formula" gives you a good starting point that is better than the stock setup. Like I said, we set it up following the proper procedure and after setting the sag, the other three settings were as predicted. The guy doing the measurements did not even know about my numbers until we finished. Again it is just a starting point for new owners that are not 150 pounds. I only made one adjustment after I rode it around. The formula worked for me as a great starting point.

Oh, the reason I started checking my suspension is because my front end was bouncing around after my left fork seal was replaced by the dealer. I found that the damping was about three clicks different from side to side. After that, I watched about a few hours of suspension video by two suspension gurus, Dave Moss of Catalyst Reaction (Suspension 101) and Max McAllister of Traxxion (Suspension for Mortals). Following their instructions, I checked for stiction and set sag. The "formula" was my idea because I assumed that since Kawasaki went through trouble to come up with stock settings that must be some way to work from there.

It is also worth mentioning that my main source of information for anything to do with this bike is that guy that loves to entertain us with his videos, you Mr. Harmon. It is because of you that I bought the Traxxion service kit. I was about to use it when I called the dealer to ask if busted fork seals were covered under the extended warranty and since they were I let them do the dirty work. I was hoping that you would just check your settings against the formula to see how close it actually comes to what you have. I will bet you lunch at some Ma and Pa joint in Idaho Falls next August that the "formula" gets you close to initial settings. So, if you don't mind, note your current settings and re-do your suspension using the "formula." I allowed up to 10 pounds for clothing and riding gear. You can just check the three settings assuming your front preload is perfect.
 
Demon Dog said:
Three of the settings are fairly linear, the front preload is not. The "formula" is just to set a starting point.
Click to expand...

I'm with Fred and will go one step further and say that your analysis is severely flawed for several reasons.  Damping adjustments are not linear and even if they were, your linear adjustments are based on rider weight rather than the total weight that is on the suspension.  I also think that most suspension guru's will tell you that rebound damping is most effected by spring weight, not the rider's weight.  Preload is used to maintain consistent steering geometry with different weights of riders and loads and the "correct" steering geometry is mostly a personal preference.
 
Although I assume linearity in the damping, it may or may not be, but it worked perfectly following the formula. You don't have to take my word for it. Just check yours with the formula. That should be easy since you have a good understanding of suspension.

I am willing to bet that the formula gives you a good initial starting point even if it is not perfect. No matter how the settings are derived none can be perfect for a number of reasons. For one, the weight of the person and/or the gear will never be consistent. Those things are forever changing and will vary due to other factors. And as for the riding style, based on the kinds of questions I have seen, there is no pure riding style that any setting is going to be optimal. I get to ride great roads on a daily basis because my geographic location. We have great roads throughout the state and most of them contain numerous of sweepers, tight bends, hair pin turns, and elevation changes. We have great marked roads and some wicked unmarked roads with rivers and creeks running along side. I don't claim to be a great or aggressive rider, but others may think it. I get to test the bike on a regular basis on these roads. I am having to pay more attention to suspension setup as I strive to ride fast and smooth. My goal is to find a decent range of settings. My weight goes up and down a few pounds and I wear different gear based on the weather. No body is going to tune suspension before each ride unless you on a track.

What I tried to do is to give those folks that finally got around to wondering whether suspension tuning does anything a place to start. My question to you is have you checked your settings against the formula? Again, I am willing to bet that it is not far from what you will get. Finally, I think someone would be more inclined to try the formula before they go through that page of instructions posted elsewhere on this forum. My goal is to get them tinkering with the settings. Once they start paying attention to how it is setup they might start understanding ways to tweak them based on rider feedback.
 
Demon Dog said:
My question to you is have you checked your settings against the formula?
Click to expand...

I think you are beating a dead horse but to answer your question......

No, my original forks and shock are sitting on a shelf and will stay there until I sell the bike.  However, I have set the damping on a half dozen C14s and advise anyone to start with a half turn from full hard on the shock and 5 clicks from full hard on the forks.  Oil viscosity changes with temperature and that has a bigger impact on damping than rider weight.
 
Ok, mcrider007, I am about to give up, but let me get something straight. You are suggesting they start with the stock setting on the forks which is 5 clicks out. The 1/2 turn starting point on the shock would have been helpful to me as I ended up with 3/4 turn on the shock. Your starting point at 1/2 turn is arbitrary wouldn't you say. You will then have them ride and soften it up 1/4 turn at a time.
 
Demon Dog said:
The 1/2 turn starting point on the shock would have been helpful to me as I ended up with 3/4 turn on the shock. Your starting point at 1/2 turn is arbitrary wouldn't you say. You will then have them ride and soften it up 1/4 turn at a time.
Click to expand...

There is nothing arbitrary about that starting point, it was the result of extensive testing on my 2008 and carried over to my 2010 model.  I have used that setting on many other C14s and no one has found a better setting for a new shock.  Over time the oil's viscosity will get lighter and it will be necessary to harden the damping position.  Once the weather warms up a bit, test that setting on several different road surfaces/speeds and see what you think.
 
I will try your 1/2 turn setting tomorrow. We will have a high of 52 degrees. I have no problem just trying what you suggest and seeing what it does before reporting back to you; however, I am a little puzzled on how that setting can work for most of the bikes you setup for others and how it can be so far from the stock setting of 1 1/4 which I am sure many people don't change for a while. I would like to learn more about this stuff from knowledgeable riders like you. I'll be moving my setting from 3/4 to 1/2 and that is harder right? What should I be looking or feeling for? Oh, I forgot to mention that I have close to 94K on that rear shock and I haven't done anything to it yet. I'm sure it needs something. I have noticed that bumps in the road seem a bit rougher.
 
Demon Dog said:
I will try your 1/2 turn setting tomorrow. We will have a high of 52 degrees. I have no problem just trying what you suggest and seeing what it does before reporting back to you; however, I am a little puzzled on how that setting can work for most of the bikes you setup for others and how it can be so far from the stock setting of 1 1/4 which I am sure many people don't change for a while. I would like to learn more about this stuff from knowledgeable riders like you. I'll be moving my setting from 3/4 to 1/2 and that is harder right? What should I be looking or feeling for? Oh, I forgot to mention that I have close to 94K on that rear shock and I haven't done anything to it yet. I'm sure it needs something. I have noticed that bumps in the road seem a bit rougher.
Click to expand...

I can't begin to explain the recommended stock setting but the fact that it is so far off is an indication that the valving could use some improvement.  Your expected temperatures are a little on the cool side so you should ride a few miles and let the shock heat up as much as possible.  When you do a suspension test its really important to establish a baseline and to ride the same stretch of road, over the same bumps, and at the same speeds for each setting.  Your suspension's main job is to keep the tires in contact with the road, a smooth ride is a secondary benefit, and you should be looking for stability over varying road surfaces.  One of the best tests is how controlled the bike is when going through a corner with bumps and/or uneven surfaces and whether you can maintain your speed and line even though the road conditions aren't very good.  OEM damping is usually a compromise, one setting may give a better ride on smooth surfaces, another setting may give better results on bumpy roads, its up to the rider to decide which setting is the best for the roads they generally ride on.

I am really surprised that your shock has any damping at 94K, I would think the oil would have the viscosity of water and be heavily contaminated by now.....however if it turns out that you feel  a 1/2 turn from full hard is a better setting don't stop there, try a 1/4 turn setting and see how that feels......if it continues to be an improvement than keep going and see what happens.
 
Thanks for the info. The condition of my shock may be throwing off 1/2 turn setting. The backend skipped a little while I whipped the bike around right turns at intersections getting off the main road. I get to whip the bike into a turn at the same spot on the way home daily and generally try to whip it when exiting main roads with folks following too close. I will establish a test route and start riding it and making one change at a time. Believe it or not, I have to ride in town to find bumps. The back roads are pretty well kept all over the state. Morning ride tomorrow at 42 degrees with a high of 54 on the way back. You can't get anywhere in this state without hitting numerous curves even on the main roads.

As for my poor shock, I can still feel a difference between settings. I can't get the Ohlins; so, would it help to replace the spring and can the oil be changed? Oh, are you selling your stock shock?

 
Demon Dog said:
As for my poor shock, I can still feel a difference between settings. I can't get the Ohlins; so, would it help to replace the spring and can the oil be changed? Oh, are you selling your stock shock?
Click to expand...

I am really surprised you have any damping adjustment left.  Over time the oil turns to water, contamination can make the oil like mud, and corrosion can accumulate on the shim stacks.  Internal seals and gaskets can also wear out.  There isn't any reason to replace the spring unless you are bottoming over bumps.  I don't think you can replace the oil on the OEM shock but what you really need to do a complete shock rebuild which requires total dis-assembly....which is kind of hard to do since its a sealed unit.  You really should consider a new shock especially if you plan to eventually replace your C14 with another C14.  I think a Penske is a very good shock and you can get one for about $800.  You can also buy a Hagon for about $400, its not as good as a Penske but better than your shock was when it was new.  My OEM shock is already promised to one of my regular riding partners.
 
mcrider007,

Well, the bike handled and felt pretty good (for me) in the back roads after setting the rear damping to 1 full turn. In the city, bumps feel a little firm; so, I will start softening the preloads a little at a time. I was wondering if changing the fork springs only to straight rate springs would help.

I can only wonder how your bike feels with your suspension setup. Does it feel like the bike is on rails in the corners? Also, what kind of rider are you - aggressive? Do you do track days on your C14?

Here is a question for you that popped up during a ride: Do you fill the tanks of the bikes before you set up suspensions?
 
Demon Dog,

I've done four trackdays on the C14 and while I'm no expert rider/racer and she's a big girl, she handles just fine and puts in respectable laps.

My bike is due for the 15k service and I'm going to have the suspension serviced as well in the spring. During my last track day I found that I needed to turn my dampening in all the way as the oil got hotter. I'd love a suspension upgrade and go full Ohlins, but for that money I could get myself a 600-1000cc lightweight trackbike.

If only I had the spare cash.......

 
Demon Dog said:
Well, the bike handled and felt pretty good (for me) in the back roads after setting the rear damping to 1 full turn. In the city, bumps feel a little firm; so, I will start softening the preloads a little at a time. I was wondering if changing the fork springs only to straight rate springs would help.

I can only wonder how your bike feels with your suspension setup. Does it feel like the bike is on rails in the corners? Also, what kind of rider are you - aggressive? Do you do track days on your C14?

Here is a question for you that popped up during a ride: Do you fill the tanks of the bikes before you set up suspensions?
Click to expand...

I'm not surprised that my shock setting (for new shocks) didn't work for you, shock oil normally thins from oil breakdown and then gets thicker due to contamination and there isn't any way to know what the viscosity is on a well used shock.  Suspension setup for street riding is always a compromise since oil viscosity will vary because of temperature changes and road conditions are always changing.  Those changes are usually greater than the change in weight on a 700 lb bike with a 200 lb rider but if you wanted to be as precise as possible I suppose you should (as the The Pope suggested) have a half tank of gas because that is about the overall average that you normally ride with.  I thought the fork springs already are straight rate, I was told by GP Suspension that the problem with the forks is too much spring and not enough compression damping, a problem I solved with 1.0 KG springs and fully adjustable forks.

My suspension gives a very plush ride but it also is very controlled on broken pavement and through corners.  I think it has the best ride of any motorcycle I have ever owned and the suspension probably exceeds my riding ability (or least the risk I am willing to take) through corners.  However, great suspension cannot overcome the laws of physics and if I feel the need for speed I would much rather be on a lighter bike.  How good is the suspension?  I think on a 10 point scale, my suspension being a 10, the OEM forks are about an 8 and the OEM shock is about a 7.  I'm sure there are better suspension options than mine but I think that I am at a point of greatly diminishing returns, it would cost a lot just to get a small improvement.

Suspension upgrades are not for everyone, they are expensive and you have to have both ends serviced on a regular basis to maintain the improved performance level but I don't know anyone who has regretted upgrading their suspension.  Its a much better investment than chrome, loud pipes, or adding engine HP and can usually be sold or transferred to a new bike.
 
Thanks to you mcrider007 (and others). I now have a good idea of what I should be shooting for to get the bike feeling right. I will look to get a new rear shock when I can; however, I had planned to trade the bike in when I hit 100K in less than 6K for a 2012. I should be able to use up that mileage going to Americade and a few closer destinations.  It is possible that I could keep the bike longer because I don't have a heat problem and the bike is running pretty good. I may not have a good reason to trade up yet. Maybe when they add the OEM cruise control will be a good reason to trade up.

Merry Christmas and may Santa bring all the accessories and parts you want.
 
Demon Dog said:
I will look to get a new rear shock when I can; however, I had planned to trade the bike in when I hit 100K in less than 6K for a 2012. I should be able to use up that mileage going to Americade and a few closer destinations.  It is possible that I could keep the bike longer because I don't have a heat problem and the bike is running pretty good.
Click to expand...

Installing/replacing the shock on a C14 is really easy; if you are planning on buying another C14 you can transfer the shock to the new bike (which is what I plan to do).  Even in the event you do not buy another C14 aftermarket shocks are easy to sell for 1/2 to 3/4s the original price depending on mileage.  A couple of weeks ago someone advertised a low mileage Penske on the FJR Forum for 60 percent of the original cost and he had 3 buyers in 15 minutes.
 
Very cool thread and the link on page 1 for setting the suspension is well written.

It's a little unnerving when you pitch into a corner and the bike see-saws..Hopefully I can borrow some time from a COG friend up north once it warms up.
 
There are several things that can cause the bike to "pogo" in a corner when pushed over, and you'll usually notice it most when there is a bump in mid turn and it upsets the suspension. Hitting a bump when leaned over is undeniably the most demanding situation your suspension will have to deal with, and if anything isn't set up correct, this is when you'll find it. Sometimes it's just a matter of adding more rebound damping on the rear, but be careful, as too much rebound damping can cause the suspension to "pack in" and the rear tire will loose traction as a result.

Problems with the front end can also contribute to this, and probably the first thing you need to do is make sure you have the sag set properly front and rear before you start adjusting the damping.

I wrote an article in the Summer 2012 Concourier on suspension set up that you might want to go back and take a look at.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top