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not starting, not charging ... ideas ?

K

ka3vme

Member
Member
This small ground wire that connects to the battery ground connection got shorted out .... don't even ask how that happened (it wasn't me).

With it disconnected I am not showing any increase in resistance back to ground, and back to the battery zero loss of voltage, not even .01 difference, so the wire seems to only suffer cosmetic damage to the insulation.

Symptoms --- bike doesn't want to start, even with booster connected to the battery. This is a new battery a week ago. Thinking the original issue was a bad battery I replaced the one that was only installed April 21, which should not have been bad, but it happens sometimes. That one is inside on charger now and apparently fine. Does not appear to be a battery issue.

So, when engaging the starter it may start, or most likely a half hearted attempt to turn over weakly once or twice, either way always accompanied by LOW BATTERY on the dash. Before starting the voltage is 12.5-12.6 and drops to 12.3 after trying to start. If it manages to start the voltage immediately jumps to 14+ depending on rpm, and 14.5-14.6 while riding. Checking with meter at battery terminals I get 14.5 from POS battery to ground wire of the battery at 2500 rpm. But, first and now current battery did not charge, so there is voltage but insufficient current.

Looking at schematics I cannot tell which items could have been damaged during the brief second long short of this wire. Regulator/Rectifier is a possibility, perhaps something with the alternator, and maybe some issue at the starter or starter relay also. Whatever it is is restricting enough current from getting to the battery to charge.

However, why does putting a booster on the battery not get enough power to the starter? That I can't understand at all. There very well may be more than one thing going on here.

Maybe I'll get lucky and someone else has had this happen ....




20230710_144637.jpg
 
Update ... battery on charge all afternoon, just tried to start it, volts on dash read 13.1 and it barely turned over once but no low battery warning.
 
I would start with a good visual inspection on all the wire harnesses related to battery and starter. Could have fried a connector. Sounds like an intermittent open along the line.
 
The only time I had an issue like this was on my pickup, where the main ground wire to the battery had corroded at the terminal and a secondary ground wire that was connected to the battery terminal became the main ground for the system, and when I tryed to start it I immediately smelled the burning and the truck would barely turn over. Stopped and cleaned up the terminal and that fixed it. The burned wire though needed to be replaced.

So was the large ground battery wire not connected by mistake? or is the main ground wire loose at the battery terminal? I would remove the battery and check to make sure the terminal is still tight (since a new battery was just put in)?

To me looking at the wire in your photo, that is what happened, and it cannot handle the large starting current, but that is my guess. No fuse would blow under these circumstances either.

So now as Harry has suggested, the wire may have burned through (or partial burned through) somewhere and you will need to inspect that whole ground connection.
 
It's a high current problem that would melt the insulation of the wire. First question that I have. Do you have external wiring of something going to the battery or such? Maybe just on the positive side? Sometimes folks connect wires to the battery positive, then directly to a ground somewhere else. But folks tend to forget that the separate paths of ground might overload the common ground for the battery if current demand exceeds the common ground wires current capacity. Normally things like pinched wires will normally not affect the negative or ground wire since it is already a direct ground to chassis in most circuits.
Of course there is also the possibility of the already mentioned possible high resistance problem. Too much resistance will either increase current or decrease voltage. An increase in current can over load the wires current capacity, thus heat up a wire and possibly melt the insulation. That's the normal signs of melted wires, because it's not of ample gauge to handle to amount of current it's being asked to flow, if the current is allowed to flow. Or if it is too much resistance to allow current flow and limits current, voltage will drop upon demand. This is also the signs of a bad battery. An increase of current flow through high resistance, causes a drop in voltage. With no current flow, voltage will remain high or normal. Yeah, Ohm's law.
So what caused the wire to melt? Once melted, is there now too much resistance in the wire for proper current flow?
 
Cap'n Bob said:
So what caused the wire to melt? Once melted, is there now too much resistance in the wire for proper current flow?
Click to expand...
It was easy to miss, but the OP stated this up front... although it is a good question how this wire got shorted.
This small ground wire that connects to the battery ground connection got shorted out .... don't even ask how that happened (it wasn't me).
Click to expand...

It is a common that corrosion where the battery ground connects to the frame can cause issues. I didn't see that mentioned.
 
I'd remove the battery and use the jumper box connected directly to the battery cables. It still sounds like an internal battery problem. It's easy and worth a try.

Edit to add....After reading Ted's post below, I was assuming all grounds had been cleaned as has been preached around here for the last ten years.
 
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For a ground wire to short/melt like that there are 2 possibilities'.
ie; Ground wires don't short when they touch the frame (that is grounded).
1) It was shorted against a hot/positive wire.
2) The big ground wire on the battery is not connected properly/poor continuity. (prolly corrosion)
(If the big wire is not connected correctly, the smaller wire (that you show) was handling "all" the amperage).
I'd check out the big ground wire carefully.

Ride safe, Ted
 
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Many people have accidentally hooked that wire to the positive battery connection thinking that is where it went, and melted it as a result. I can understand the confusion, because Honda uses black wires with yellow stripes for power. The other end of it goes to the frame ground under the tank, and then over to some joint connectors for ground distribution. It may be open. Take an ohm meter and measure its resistance to frame ground and see what you get. Should be near 0.


C14Ground.jpg
 
connie_rider said:
For a ground wire to short/melt like that there are 2 possibilities'.
ie; Ground wires don't short when they touch the frame (that is grounded).
1) It was shorted against a hot/positive wire.
2) The big ground wire on the battery is not connected properly/poor continuity. (prolly corrosion)
(If the big wire is not connected correctly, the smaller wire (that you show) was handling "all" the amperage).
I'd check out the big ground wire carefully.

Ride safe, Ted
Click to expand...
all the ground connections to the frame near the battery are clean and all the terminals are nice and clean.

the small wire was shorted to the positive terminal just for an instant.


TLDR

didn't want to have to get into the story but apparently this is what happened.

back in April I was replacing unknown age battery that came with the bike 2-3 years ago, figured it was a good idea.

was working on it in the driveway, old battery out and set aside, new battery sitting next to the bike. roommates friend shows up on his HD ... first bike has had it a year and knows everything there is to know about bikes and wrenching. I go inside to take a phone call, he decided he would 'help' me and put in the battery. Now not seeing how it came out it is not necessarily obvious which wires go where. Unknown to me until a few days ago, he attached the + wires to the + terminal, but also that small black/yellow ground that runs around the back of the battery and disappears into the bowels of the frame. When he went to connect the - terminals to the frame it instantly started smoking and melting so he pulled back. Mind you I was not aware of this. He took the wire off the + terminal, pulled the battery back out, and neatly wrapped the melted wiring in electrical tape and it looked OEM at that point. When he finished that he put the battery back on the ground where it was and left the work to me.

when my roommate spoke to him this past weekend he told her "well, I wonder if what I did back then with the battery has anything to do with the problem". Then she handed the phone to me and he told me what happened. Lets just say I hope I can help him work on his bike someday.

what did we learn, among other things ? ... If it ain't broke, don't fix it !
 
ZXtasy said:
Has the bike been stored/not run for some time? Look for rodent damage.
Click to expand...
bike ridden regularly. rodents don't dare mess with it, cats crawl up under the cover and provide guard duty at night sleeping on the nice custom Laam seat made just for their comfort.
 
Fred H. said:
Many people have accidentally hooked that wire to the positive battery connection thinking that is where it went, and melted it as a result. I can understand the confusion, because Honda uses black wires with yellow stripes for power. The other end of it goes to the frame ground under the tank, and then over to some joint connectors for ground distribution. It may be open. Take an ohm meter and measure its resistance to frame ground and see what you get. Should be near 0.


View attachment 36400
Click to expand...
I remember checking resistance the other day but not the results. I did mention that when I put one lead on the terminal of the blk/y wire and the other on the + terminal I got exactly the same voltage as if both terminals were on the battery directly, so no voltage drop, and of course that implies continuity. I will check resistance again because there was minimal load on it at that time also.

This will be my first disassembly of the C14 and with the T-rex bars on it a bit more involved getting plastic off. Also some of the plastic push pins which are so easy to take out, have been replace with automotive pins that need a tool to rip them out, destroying them in the process. You know those darn little Kawi pins are freakin' expensive !

I only have B&W schematic, this color one is much nicer.
 
I hand made the color schematic several years ago because the black and white was so hard to read. Had to do it line by line, it took me several days. I believe I've posted them in the COG library.
 

Attachments

  • 2010_C14_Wire_Diag.pdf
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I've studied it several times Fred, when tracing issues. Much appreciated it by me and many I'm sure.

(Note to others - it's for a gen 1 model. Gen 2 is mostly the same and gen 3 (2015+) is slightly different again.)
 
I also made one for the earlier 2008 bikes, but it won't let me upload it here, says its too large. Its posted in the COG library, but few folks ever seem to go there.
 
Thanks Fred.

When you get a minute the 2015+ needs doing as it has a smaller harness plug with fewer pins to the ABS unit. :D
 
ka3vme said:
I remember checking resistance the other day but not the results. I did mention that when I put one lead on the terminal of the blk/y wire and the other on the + terminal I got exactly the same voltage as if both terminals were on the battery directly, so no voltage drop, and of course that implies continuity. I will check resistance again because there was minimal load on it at that time also.

This will be my first disassembly of the C14 and with the T-rex bars on it a bit more involved getting plastic off. Also some of the plastic push pins which are so easy to take out, have been replace with automotive pins that need a tool to rip them out, destroying them in the process. You know those darn little Kawi pins are freakin' expensive !

I only have B&W schematic, this color one is much nicer.
Click to expand...

I feel you cannot imply that same voltage across a ground circuit wire implies continuity. Circuit voltage drop, circuit continuity, and circuit resistance are different.
 
S Smith said:
I feel you cannot imply that same voltage across a ground circuit wire implies continuity. Circuit voltage drop, circuit continuity, and circuit resistance are different.
Click to expand...
Voltage drop and resistance could be affected by several factors, but if there is voltage through the wire, that could not happen if there was an open circuit, unless I am missing something in my ET training ?
 
ka3vme said:
This small ground wire that connects to the battery ground connection got shorted out .... don't even ask how that happened (it wasn't me).

With it disconnected I am not showing any increase in resistance back to ground, and back to the battery zero loss of voltage, not even .01 difference, so the wire seems to only suffer cosmetic damage to the insulation.

Symptoms --- bike doesn't want to start, even with booster connected to the battery. This is a new battery a week ago. Thinking the original issue was a bad battery I replaced the one that was only installed April 21, which should not have been bad, but it happens sometimes. That one is inside on charger now and apparently fine. Does not appear to be a battery issue.

So, when engaging the starter it may start, or most likely a half hearted attempt to turn over weakly once or twice, either way always accompanied by LOW BATTERY on the dash. Before starting the voltage is 12.5-12.6 and drops to 12.3 after trying to start. If it manages to start the voltage immediately jumps to 14+ depending on rpm, and 14.5-14.6 while riding. Checking with meter at battery terminals I get 14.5 from POS battery to ground wire of the battery at 2500 rpm. But, first and now current battery did not charge, so there is voltage but insufficient current.

Looking at schematics I cannot tell which items could have been damaged during the brief second long short of this wire. Regulator/Rectifier is a possibility, perhaps something with the alternator, and maybe some issue at the starter or starter relay also. Whatever it is is restricting enough current from getting to the battery to charge.

However, why does putting a booster on the battery not get enough power to the starter? That I can't understand at all. There very well may be more than one thing going on here.

Maybe I'll get lucky and someone else has had this happen ....
Click to expand...

So I went back and re-read your first post a bit more carefully. It sounds like you're saying that the starter motor is cranking over very slowly, despite having a good battery.

So my first suggestion would be this. Don't assume a new battery is actually good. I'd get it load tested, it isn't unheard of to get a brand new battery that is bad.

If the battery tests good, them very carefully clean the battery connections and tighten them with a wrench.

If you still have problems after that, then I'd start looking at the starter relay, main fuse, and the starter itself, as well as all associated wiring.
 
And here's another possibility. The act of shorting the wire caused a direct dead short for the batteries positive terminal to ground. This could have damaged the battery internally and caused a short between cells in the battery. Then when you attempt to connect your jump box to help it start, all the current from the jump box ends up going into the battery, so it can't really provide enough current for the starter even with the jump box hooked up. And trying to recharge the battery won't work either if it has an internal short.

The easiest way to verify this would be to put a different battery in the bike and see if your problems go away.
 
ka3vme said:
Voltage drop and resistance could be affected by several factors, but if there is voltage through the wire, that could not happen if there was an open circuit, unless I am missing something in my ET training ?
Click to expand...
unloaded vs loaded circuit… you stated problem occurs when starter engages. I’ve found many funky things can happen in damaged circuit as an EE.
 
Fred H. said:
And here's another possibility. The act of shorting the wire caused a direct dead short for the batteries positive terminal to ground. This could have damaged the battery internally and caused a short between cells in the battery. Then when you attempt to connect your jump box to help it start, all the current from the jump box ends up going into the battery, so it can't really provide enough current for the starter even with the jump box hooked up. And trying to recharge the battery won't work either if it has an internal short.

The easiest way to verify this would be to put a different battery in the bike and see if your problems go away.
Click to expand...
battery installed in April, the one that was shorted, was replaced a week ago. Identical symptoms. Starter might only grudgingly turn over once, very slowly. Right now I am having a heck of a time removing the T-rex bars ... torqued them down with a dash of loctite and now getting them to budge is not working. Someone else "borrowed" some of my tools and I no longer have what I need. More money at tool counter.

So far it's not that hard to take apart IF you have what you need.

Oh, the original April battery was put on the good charger for a couple days then I let it sit disconnected for a couple more. Connected it to my friend's HD and turned right over (not the guy who messed things up for me !)
 
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I still think you have a battery problem and/or battery connection issue. Can you reinstall the old one?
 
Ka3 - what's the recent history of the bike? Riding conditions? Performance? Work done on it? Over heating issues? Anything unusual?

Your issue seems to suggest extremely high current draw. I have encountered this on Triumph 1050 bikes.
 
Freddy said:
Ka3 - what's the recent history of the bike? Riding conditions? Performance? Work done on it? Over heating issues? Anything unusual?

Your issue seems to suggest extremely high current draw. I have encountered this on Triumph 1050 bikes.
Click to expand...
nothing spectacular done to it, had Mountain Runner flash already when I bought it, I definitely do not take advantage of any possible performance increase from the flash, I rarely hit 4K let alone bounce it off the limiter! It's a Sport TOURER for me, not a Sport Tourer. Anything else is comfort oriented, lower pegs, different w/shield, Laam seat. Ran wonderfully well right up to when the "person" attempting to help me shorted that wire, that is precisely when the problems began.

To satisfy other's curiosity, before it got dark I took the first battery off the charger reading 13.6v, swapped it in, and no difference, starter doesn't hardly budge and immediately goes to low voltage.

And yes, seems obviously either an extremely high current draw, or not able to provide the required amount of current, or a combination. Hope to get the body panels off tomorrow and see exactly what I am dealing with, particularly where that small blk/y wire goes to engine ground by the started. That area is suspect No 1 for now.

If I wanted to wait I could just trailer it up the road to WV in 13 months and have the experts have a go at it!
 
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Fred H. said:
I hand made the color schematic several years ago because the black and white was so hard to read. Had to do it line by line, it took me several days. I believe I've posted them in the COG library.
Click to expand...
I could not open it in the library. I could not open a lot of articles.
 
ka3vme said:
battery installed in April, the one that was shorted, was replaced a week ago. Identical symptoms. Starter might only grudgingly turn over once, very slowly. Right now I am having a heck of a time removing the T-rex bars ... torqued them down with a dash of loctite and now getting them to budge is not working. Someone else "borrowed" some of my tools and I no longer have what I need. More money at tool counter.

So far it's not that hard to take apart IF you have what you need.

Oh, the original April battery was put on the good charger for a couple days then I let it sit disconnected for a couple more. Connected it to my friend's HD and turned right over (not the guy who messed things up for me !)
Click to expand...
Heat up the bolts with a torch, CAFEFULLY, for a few seconds to soften the loctite...
 
To satisfy (my) curiosity, remove the crankshaft timing cover on RHS and ensure crank winds over relative easily with a socket& wrench on the bolt.
 
Freddy said:
To satisfy (my) curiosity, remove the crankshaft timing cover on RHS and ensure crank winds over relative easily with a socket& wrench on the bolt.
Click to expand...
I can see I am going to learning a lot about the C14 during this time of 'exploration'. I'll put this on my list of things to do.
 
ka3vme said:
I can see I am going to learning a lot about the C14 during this time of 'exploration'. I'll put this on my list of things to do.
Click to expand...
Nothing like getting to know your baby! You might try a heat gun to soften the thread locker. A bit safer than a torch.
 
Fred H. said:
Did you check the ground cable for the battery where it is bolted to the frame?
Click to expand...
connie_rider said:
Temporarily attach a jumper cable between the Negative Post and the frame.
If things improve, you found your problem.
Click to expand...
Today's updates.

Replaced the battery ground cable with a known good one from another bike, no change.

Tested the starter relay per service manual instructions and have a very slight discrepancy.
Criteria: Battery disconnected - expect Infinite resistance .... tested okay
Battery connected - expect 0 Ohms .... on my VOM from ranges 2K - 20M measurement was 0.00.
However when set to 200 Ohm scale it measured 0.3 not 0.00
So does it pass the test or not? The diagnostics do not specify what setting the meter should be on.

Next step was to bypass everything and hook up good battery directly to starter via the starter motor cable that attaches to the starter relay. Upon doing this the starter still failed to turn over, acting just as it did with all bike systems connected.

Possible causes: 1. Starter cable bad, high resistance 2. Bad engine ground - test batter was connected solidly to normal frame ground that battery connects to. 3. Starter is bad.

Next step is to try to get the starter out and test it directly. It sure is a tight fit with bundles of wires in the way and other hoses and miscellaneous stuff to try to get past.

I have to say, the C-10 is immensely easier to work on, this just looks like a bunch or wires, relays, and connectors everywhere you look once the plastic comes off.
 
Scary Harry said:
0.3 ohms passes the test. The quality of the meter and test leads can effect the results, but that result is a pass in my experience.
Click to expand...
That's what I thought also. It functions fine when tested. Removing it from the circuit made no difference in the starter issue. If it's not raining I should get the starter out later this morning.
 
Starter removed. Hooked up 12V with good cables and it spins well. Put +wire from relay to starter back on, connected with it and spins well.

Possibilities - 1. Engine ground issue
2. Starter defective, spins with no load but not under load.

Next step - place starter wire facing directly outward from bike, put starter in place, connect known good wire direct to a bolt securing the starter then see if it is able to turn over the engine. If not then replace starter, if so then run a new frame to engine ground. It will be to a different location than OEM ground bolt which is in the center of the engine and I don't see any way to get hands and tools in there to remove and replace.
 
ka3vme said:
Starter removed. Hooked up 12V with good cables and it spins well. Put +wire from relay to starter back on, connected with it and spins well.

Possibilities - 1. Engine ground issue
2. Starter defective, spins with no load but not under load.

Next step - place starter wire facing directly outward from bike, put starter in place, connect known good wire direct to a bolt securing the starter then see if it is able to turn over the engine. If not then replace starter, if so then run a new frame to engine ground. It will be to a different location than OEM ground bolt which is in the center of the engine and I don't see any way to get hands and tools in there to remove and replace.
Click to expand...
I'd leave the starter out for now. Connect starter to bike cables, Put bike in neutral, hit the start button and see if starter spins.
 
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Scary Harry said:
I'd leave the starter out for now. Connect starter to bike cables, Put bike in neutral, hit the start button and see if starter spins.
Click to expand...
Starter spins same as when directly connected to battery.

I put the starter back in and added a ground direct to one of the starter retaining bolts. Direct to battery, and again it won't turn over the engine.
Conclusion here is starter is bad. Went to dealer to get quotes on major components that could be bad, came out less than any online parts places like Partzilla. Ordered starter.
 
Freddy said:
See reply 33.
Click to expand...
Removed timing cover and turned engine through about two dozen compression strokes with no issues. Was only using a rather short 3/8" ratchet and it did not require too much effort. That should confirm the starter just doesn't have enough torque to turn over the motor.
 
Service manual says it's possible to have an open winding between any two commutator segments which would result in a weak starter. But, you would have to disassemble the starter motor to check the circuit. You could also have burnt brushes or commutators that could be cleaned. Burnt brushes could result is excessive current and further burning of the brushes. I Had this problem while serving in the Navy when my radar dish could not stay upright thanks to poorly designed brushes. I was constantly changing the brushes from arcing on the commutator. This motor was massive and was designed to keep the dish level while the ship rolled with heavy waves. Worked great in calm seas, but during a storm, the weather would kill the motor.
 
It does sound like you have a bad starter. The only thing I find that is odd, is that all this began when the ground lead was connected to the positive battery terminal and shorted (melted). It might be a good idea to pull the gas tank out and inspect all the ground wires under the tank and make they are all still good. You can see them in the center of the picture below. This is where the other end of the melted wire you had goes.

large.jpg
 
Fred H. said:
It does sound like you have a bad starter. The only thing I find that is odd, is that all this began when the ground lead was connected to the positive battery terminal and shorted (melted). It might be a good idea to pull the gas tank out and inspect all the ground wires under the tank and make they are all still good. You can see them in the center of the picture below. This is where the other end of the melted wire you had goes.

large.jpg
Click to expand...

I've been trying to trace that wire but it goes into the bundle that disappears into the frame and joins up with even more wires into a bigger bundle like the one that is in the way of the starter.


yes, that wire should have NOTHING to do with the starter, and don't forget the charging issue with sufficient voltage at the battery while running but immediately upon shutdown it was still 12.4 - 12.5 volts. Possibly a constant drain on the battery, but if it is that much of a load it should rather quickly show voltage decreasing as long as the key is still on, but it did not do that. With bike off overnight battery would recover to 12.6-12.8 V. Battery tested good on my equipment and also took it to the dealer and they said it's basically good as new.

This the the most perplexing part, that the starter, and charging problems happened simultaneously with the grounded wire. I can see it affecting alternator or regulator but still, not the starter.


Have a couple heavy work days ahead, I'll work on it as I can and post results. Maybe someone can see whatever it is I'm missing. I do appreciate the suggestions.
 
ka3vme said:
roommates friend shows up on his HD
Click to expand...
I had a couple friends like that. It took days to undo fix correct their help.

I'm guessing the starter problem is unrelated. Manual says to replace the starter if it ain't turning over. Could be an open, internal short, or other problem. Brushes can crack, wear out, brush springs can go soft, etc.
 
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ka3vme said:
I've been trying to trace that wire but it goes into the bundle that disappears into the frame and joins up with even more wires into a bigger bundle like the one that is in the way of the starter.
Click to expand...

That melted ground wire that disappears into the bundle may have gotten hot enough to melt a neighboring wire and cause a partial short to ground. I hate to say it, but you may have to take the wire harness apart and examine for damage to other wires it came in contact with.
 
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There was someone in the past that hooked up a battery incorrectly and fried things. IIRC he turned that in to his insurance company and they footed the bill for the damages. Am I correct?
 
This one maybe and it shows pics of the damage.

forum.concours.org

Probably Fried my Wiring Harness (C14 2015)

Ok.....it’s been a baaaaad day. Woke up this morning in Stecoah, NC ready for a fantastic day of riding. Turned the key (2015 c14) and I got a low battery indicator on the display. I checked with the local auto parts store and eureka! They had my battery. They loan me tools and I start swapping...
forum.concours.org forum.concours.org
 
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Here's the photo from that thread that shows what happened. I'd bet yours looks similar. Once you get the wire harness sheath pulled back, it really shouldn't be all that hard to repair. Just cut out the sections of bad wires and solder and heat shrink in replacement sections. You'll probably only have to do 2 or three wires. Then just re-wrap it all back together with some cloth wire harness tape.

image.jpg
 
ka3vme said:
That's what I thought also. It functions fine when tested. Removing it from the circuit made no difference in the starter issue. If it's not raining I should get the starter out later this morning.
Click to expand...
It's difficult to explain why the starter would spin on the bench, but not turn over your hand-turnable engine. However, I have 3 GL1000 starters that bench-test good, but don't generate enough torque to turn over an engine, so a weak starter is possible.

After reading the thread noted in post #51, and looking at all the electrical components on the wiring diagram (including the ECU) that share the Blk/Y wire, I think your effort may be futile, even if you get the starter to turn the engine over. You never mentioned it, but after all your earnest but unsuccessful effort, it seems like it's time to have a heart-to-heart talk with the HD guy that started this.
Best of luck, whichever way you proceed.
 
I'm calling the insurance company. They can chase the friend if they want to. I'd think it would be a comprehensive claim.
 
Bud said:
I'm calling the insurance company. They can chase the friend if they want to. I'd think it would be a comprehensive claim.
Click to expand...
You could just as easily blame biker mice for chewing through the wire harness.
 
GRR125 said:
It's difficult to explain why the starter would spin on the bench, but not turn over your hand-turnable engine. However, I have 3 GL1000 starters that bench-test good, but don't generate enough torque to turn over an engine, so a weak starter is possible.

After reading the thread noted in post #51, and looking at all the electrical components on the wiring diagram (including the ECU) that share the Blk/Y wire, I think your effort may be futile, even if you get the starter to turn the engine over. You never mentioned it, but after all your earnest but unsuccessful effort, it seems like it's time to have a heart-to-heart talk with the HD guy that started this.
Best of luck, whichever way you proceed.
Click to expand...

the bike started, although reluctantly, when this first happened. Ran hundreds of miles no problem until stopping for fuel. We thought the battery would be all charged up and expected it to start as normal. However it barely turned over and required a booster to get it to start. At this time I did not know about the wire being grounded. Following weekend it started, and whenever the next weekend I was home it also started, although each time was less and less willing to start. Finally this last time it just refused to turn over the motor, not matter how much boost was provided.

Hopefully that it started all those times and ran flawlessly. means the ECU and related items are intact. Again, voltage was 14.5-14.6 while going down the road, but no charge put into battery.

I don't know if KDS3 software could tell me anything about the status of components, considering it is "diagnostic software". I'm familiar with software for Detroit & Cummins diesel engines and what it can tell you, and that is quite a bit. I'll have to look into that.
 
As you say, due to it running flawlessly when it was running, the ECU and related components are all good. It obviously displayed no red light faults on the dash. That being the case, KDS3 (which I have) would show that all is in order.
 
Scary Harry said:
You could just as easily blame biker mice for chewing through the wire harness.
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What difference does the reason make if it was damaged and not his fault. One insurance company took care of a similar situation, why not give that a shot instead of him having to go through all of this? Just trying to understand why my thinking is wrong.
 
Bud said:
What difference does the reason make if it was damaged and not his fault. One insurance company took care of a similar situation, why not give that a shot instead of him having to go through all of this? Just trying to understand why my thinking is wrong.
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If it was covered it would be totaled, guaranteed. In another completely different story I will have to explain how this bike already got totaled because of a broken mirror and top case mount. So now after buy-back it is still insured but for considerably less. Personally I would rather find the problems and fix them myself.
 
ka3vme said:
If it was covered it would be totaled, guaranteed. In another completely different story I will have to explain how this bike already got totaled because of a broken mirror and top case mount. So now after buy-back it is still insured but for considerably less. Personally I would rather find the problems and fix them myself.
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I agree, and think the problem is easily fixable. It doesn't sound like any electrical components were damaged. I'd just open up the wire harness and inspect it for shorts and see if the new starter fixes the slow cranking issue. The ground wire should have only burned between the two frame ground locations, I doubt any of the other connected ground points were affected. So all you have to open up on the harness is enough to expose the wire from the battery ground to the ground under the tank. It shouldn't be that difficult to troubleshoot and repair.
 
Slow day here, so I thought I'd pull out my gas tank and document where I believe this ground wire is routed in the harness.

This first photo shows the location of the wire near the battery box, where it gets attached to the frame grounding bolt (removed in this photo).

IMG_6005.jpg

With gas tank and cover plate removed, the second photo shows (see red line) where this wire enters harness. Note the starter relay and main fuse are located to the right in this photo.

IMG_6006.jpg

Third photo shows where I believe wire is routed in main harness back to rear of the bike along the left side of the frame (disregard my added farkle wiring). Note that it enters the harness in previous photo, and then the harness splits to front and rear of bike and makes a turn around the frame member going to the rear. Accessing some of the harness where it turns and goes around the frame may require more effort.

IMG_6013.jpg
 
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The next photo shows where the harness splits at the rear and heads over the the frame ground.

IMG_6011.jpg

And finally, this photo shows the main ground under the tank. You'll notice it also splits and has a large white wire in it that go down to the voltage regulator that is on the bottom of the bike. It's very possible that you have a short to that ground wire around this area. It might explain why you also have charging system problems. If some of the current is getting shorted to ground when the key is on, that would explain why your starter doesn't have enough current, and why your battery isn't getting recharged. This is where I'd focus, since this same white wire goes to the starter relay to supply power to the starter. I'd bet you have a short from your ground to this wire somewhere in the harness.

IMG_6009.jpg
 
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Fred H. said:
Slow day here, so I thought I'd pull out my gas tank and document where I believe this ground wire is routed in the harness.

This first photo shows the location of the wire near the battery box, where it gets attached to the frame grounding bolt (removed in this photo).

View attachment 36437

With gas tank and cover plate removed, the second photo shows (see red line) where this wire enters harness. Note the starter relay and main fuse are located to the right in this photo.

View attachment 36438

Third photo shows where I believe wire is routed in main harness back to rear of the bike along the left side of the frame (disregard my added farkle wiring). Note that it enters the harness in previous photo, and then the harness splits to front and rear of bike and makes a turn around the frame member going to the rear. Accessing some of the harness where it turns and goes around the frame may require more effort.

View attachment 36442
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2nd photo - my frame does not have those items attached under the tank, where the metal bracket secures three sets of hoses or wires.

2010 non-ABS, no traction control.

at least what I have to deal with does not seem nearly as cluttered.

and tracing the wire back starts to get difficult where it joins up with the larger bundle of wires. What I'm understanding is I want to track it back toward that ground bolt, so maybe I should work backwards from there at the same time.
 
ka3vme said:
2nd photo - my frame does not have those items attached under the tank, where the metal bracket secures three sets of hoses or wires.

2010 non-ABS, no traction control.

at least what I have to deal with does not seem nearly as cluttered.

and tracing the wire back starts to get difficult where it joins up with the larger bundle of wires. What I'm understanding is I want to track it back toward that ground bolt, so maybe I should work backwards from there at the same time.
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Those hoses under the tank are for the ABS system, that's why you don't have them. The photos I posted are from my 2010 ABS bike.
 
I agree with you, I think I'd start at where the wire is grounded under the tank and start working your way backwards. My guess is that the short is probably not far from where it's grounded and joins up with the wire for the voltage regulator.
 
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Finally a couple hours to look at the wiring again. The wire for the frame ground at the battery appears to have limited damage. At the point that it goes back under the subframe it joins up with two other ground wires, and at least six inches of it before that show no damage. Damage is worse closest to the point it was shorted to the + terminal. No damage showing on the two wires and beyond. Relatively easy to replace this length of wire, and it would be nice if I could find a piece of black/yellow but not likely.

The starter is waiting to be replaced. I don't know if things will be okay once replaced, there was a charging issue which I suspect could be from damage to the regulator from the short circuit. I am still waiting on one to arrive, and I have a stator standing by in case that was damaged. With my work schedule it may be a few weeks before I complete this. Then I have to try to remember how all the parts go back together for the fairing pieces, so many screws, and those rubber baffles look they will be a lot of fun to try to get back in place.




Damage definitely worse at the terminal end.
20230805_155842.jpg



As you work down the length of the wire damage diminishes
20230805_155858.jpg





By the time it gets to the junction where multiple grounds all collect and become just that one ground wire there is no damage for several inches. No adjacent wires were damaged.
20230805_160035.jpg
 
ka3vme said:
This small ground wire that connects to the battery ground connection got shorted out .... don't even ask how that happened (it wasn't me).

With it disconnected I am not showing any increase in resistance back to ground, and back to the battery zero loss of voltage, not even .01 difference, so the wire seems to only suffer cosmetic damage to the insulation.

Symptoms --- bike doesn't want to start, even with booster connected to the battery. This is a new battery a week ago. Thinking the original issue was a bad battery I replaced the one that was only installed April 21, which should not have been bad, but it happens sometimes. That one is inside on charger now and apparently fine. Does not appear to be a battery issue.

So, when engaging the starter it may start, or most likely a half hearted attempt to turn over weakly once or twice, either way always accompanied by LOW BATTERY on the dash. Before starting the voltage is 12.5-12.6 and drops to 12.3 after trying to start. If it manages to start the voltage immediately jumps to 14+ depending on rpm, and 14.5-14.6 while riding. Checking with meter at battery terminals I get 14.5 from POS battery to ground wire of the battery at 2500 rpm. But, first and now current battery did not charge, so there is voltage but insufficient current.

Looking at schematics I cannot tell which items could have been damaged during the brief second long short of this wire. Regulator/Rectifier is a possibility, perhaps something with the alternator, and maybe some issue at the starter or starter relay also. Whatever it is is restricting enough current from getting to the battery to charge.

However, why does putting a booster on the battery not get enough power to the starter? That I can't understand at all. There very well may be more than one thing going on here.

Maybe I'll get lucky and someone else has had this happen ....




View attachment 36379
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I suggest to power starter directly by another battery. If it spins correctly, then that rules out the starter as a contributor to the issue. Then I would use the wiring diagram to trace every wire in the start charge circuit to see where the short or drain could be. This type of bun usually means direct batt power to the ground circuit when activated. Also ck the regulator for a short (it should not get extremely hot with the key on)
 
Viper said:
I suggest to power starter directly by another battery. If it spins correctly, then that rules out the starter as a contributor to the issue. Then I would use the wiring diagram to trace every wire in the start charge circuit to see where the short or drain could be. This type of bun usually means direct batt power to the ground circuit when activated. Also ck the regulator for a short (it should not get extremely hot with the key on)
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Starter was removed and would spin slowly when powered directly. Put it back in and connecting directly to a battery it will not even begin to turn over the bike. Engine turns over easily with a wrench, checked already to make sure it wasn't seized or hydrolocked.
 
Fred H. said:
Looks like you've just about got it solved. Hopefully a new starter is the answer. Not sure where you're located, but let me know if I can be of any assistance.
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I'm in NC. Getting that starter in & out is a bit challenging. Tucked back in a hole so you can hardly see what you are doing, have to get it in there mostly by 'feel'. Next time I'm home hoping the weather will be okay and I can replace the burned wire, then bundle up everything and tape it back nice and tight like it was before. Been a couple weeks and the regulator still has not arrived at the dealer.
 
Update on this project. I was out of town almost two months for work, getting back to the bike all apart was not fun, trying to remember where all those little screws and plastic pins go back.

I finished cleaning up the bad wiring, added new wires where needed. Replaced the starter first, was going to try just that but couldn't find where I put the starter relay, so had to use the new one I bought. Did not replace stator or regulator/rectifier but have them on standby "just in case".

Bike started up just fine, turned over at 'normal' speed. I did notice that the new starter was easy to turn by hand, the bad one could not be turned, and even with some channel locks on it it was difficult. Got it all put back together, and amazingly no extra screws hanging around. \

Well, there are two ... for the locking box in the left fairing, which seems to have mysteriously disappeared. I'll check for a used one before springing for a brand new one from Mother Kawasaki.

Tomorrow will be test ride day. Need to see if it is charging properly, if not then rectifier/regular and probably put the stator in while I'm at it.
 
I can confidently say this case is now closed! After several riding sessions, short trips and longer between needing to start the engine, the voltage had remained high and starter turns over just great. Starter definitely took all of the major parts damage by the shorted connector. Wire damage was just very time consuming to discover the extent of repairs needed, then to meticulously repair each burnt part.

Returned excess parts purchased to dealer (stator and regulator/rectifier) for a healthy refund.

And thanks to the COG classified, new fairing pocket should be here in a few days to plug up that unsightly hole in my dash.
 
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