Playing a little devils advocate and interested in the responses. So this bike seems to be less tolerant then others of things like using front brake with wheel is turned at all. And when going very slow you might want both feet out in case of slight loss of complete vertical. So below 5 mph I use just the rear brake (there is no linking at that speed): 2012 C14). But of course that does not allow me to have both feet off of the bike. Already came close to tipping to the right in a driveway. Of course I can keep both feet out but then I have to use the front brake. If I use that method then one day when I have to stop quickly while slow I will have the bad habit of front brake. Thoughts?? And what is your technique?
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So question about how you use your brakes on a top heavy bike like this.
- Thread starter n3nman
- Start date
I notice this with my C10. At low speeds, I use the front with only one, two fingers at the most, with a very light touch. If I've been riding something else, I've got to make sure I re-calibrate myself before getting back on the Connie.
I live on a gravel road and driveway, so once you get used to that, pavement is relatively easy. ;D ;D
I live on a gravel road and driveway, so once you get used to that, pavement is relatively easy. ;D ;D
throttleup-1
Tricycle
1. Find yourself a local school that teaches slow speed skills.
2. Find a local parking lot and practice practice practice slow speed skills
3. Dont fear the brake, learn to control your braking.
4. Learn to balance and counter balance the bike, learn body position
5. Rinse and repeat
I know this all sounds obvious and almost condescending, its not meant to. Honestly, find a local slow speeds skills school. Many of the law enforcement departments offer a civilian version of the motor officer training program. Its well worth it
2. Find a local parking lot and practice practice practice slow speed skills
3. Dont fear the brake, learn to control your braking.
4. Learn to balance and counter balance the bike, learn body position
5. Rinse and repeat
I know this all sounds obvious and almost condescending, its not meant to. Honestly, find a local slow speeds skills school. Many of the law enforcement departments offer a civilian version of the motor officer training program. Its well worth it
Aussie
Street Cruiser
+1
That's what I needed to do ... I made it through the low speed school ... All the way up to the iron cross ... But could not conquer it ... Just the same the school really helped a lot. and it was really scary for me
Then for "icing", I have spent a couple of hours in parking lots over the period of a couple of months, cutting turns tighter and tighter. My main fear here is dropping the bike with no help ... But luckily that hasn't happened. It is better to do this exercise with a (strong) friend.
One thing that may reduce your fear some (it does for me) is installing Canyon Cages ... They protect th ebike well in slow speed drops ... So if it happens ... You don't spend a lot.
Good luck. :motonoises:
That's what I needed to do ... I made it through the low speed school ... All the way up to the iron cross ... But could not conquer it ... Just the same the school really helped a lot. and it was really scary for me
Then for "icing", I have spent a couple of hours in parking lots over the period of a couple of months, cutting turns tighter and tighter. My main fear here is dropping the bike with no help ... But luckily that hasn't happened. It is better to do this exercise with a (strong) friend.
One thing that may reduce your fear some (it does for me) is installing Canyon Cages ... They protect th ebike well in slow speed drops ... So if it happens ... You don't spend a lot.
Good luck. :motonoises:
If you ride more than one bike you really must tailor your riding to each bike. There's no way around this.
Each will respond differently based on weight, brakes, engine, suspension, tires, and the list goes on. It's like trying to drive a big truck like a compact. If you try to ride them all using the same habits you won't do well on any of them. Not trying to be critical, that's just the way it is.
Each will respond differently based on weight, brakes, engine, suspension, tires, and the list goes on. It's like trying to drive a big truck like a compact. If you try to ride them all using the same habits you won't do well on any of them. Not trying to be critical, that's just the way it is.
Solomookie
Street Cruiser
Like Bob H said.. Not trying to be critical; just trying to keep everyone in the vertical. Here goes...
NOOOOO!!! Your foot pegs are your friends. When your feet go off the pegs, you change the balance of the machine and you add instability that doesn't have to be there. Think of it this way... Trials riders, the ultimate in balance and control, are actually penalized if their feet come off the pegs. Push comes to shove, you can get your feet off the pegs and to the ground in about half a second. But keeping your feet on the pegs will give you the best chance of not being in the situation in the first place.
Again... NO!! There is no such thing as a bad habit of using the front brake. There is only using the front brake badly. Like the guys above have said... practice. You need to get to the point where your reaction to a sudden situation is conditioned. I started out on dirt bikes when I was 10, so I had those reactions ingrained long before I hit the pavement. I'm not sure how you get to that point as a newbie (perhaps someone else can chime in), but the first thing to get right is your mind set. You are in control of your bike; be not afraid. Use it the way it is designed to be used.
Be safe everyone, and have a great Thanksgiving. :great:
n3nman said:
NOOOOO!!! Your foot pegs are your friends. When your feet go off the pegs, you change the balance of the machine and you add instability that doesn't have to be there. Think of it this way... Trials riders, the ultimate in balance and control, are actually penalized if their feet come off the pegs. Push comes to shove, you can get your feet off the pegs and to the ground in about half a second. But keeping your feet on the pegs will give you the best chance of not being in the situation in the first place.
n3nman said:
Again... NO!! There is no such thing as a bad habit of using the front brake. There is only using the front brake badly. Like the guys above have said... practice. You need to get to the point where your reaction to a sudden situation is conditioned. I started out on dirt bikes when I was 10, so I had those reactions ingrained long before I hit the pavement. I'm not sure how you get to that point as a newbie (perhaps someone else can chime in), but the first thing to get right is your mind set. You are in control of your bike; be not afraid. Use it the way it is designed to be used.
Be safe everyone, and have a great Thanksgiving. :great:
Solomookie
Street Cruiser
n3nman said:
I highly recommend taking the MSF course. Your foot (singular, and left, by the way) comes off the peg as you stop. If you're moving, your best bet is to be pegging.
zorlac
Crotch Rocket
It takes time & occasional tip overs to figure out what NOT to do.n3nman said:
I was recently riding up an asphalt ramp between two parking lots that's almost a 45deg angle that I've done many times but this time I stalled it 1/2 way up... I thought I was toast. I grabbed the front brake & thought about backing down but that seemed like a bad idea. I was able to put my left foot down & hold the back brake while I restarted it. Started to slip the clutch until the back suspension squatted a bit let off the rear brake and made it up.
What I'm trying to say is just try & not panic, keep your balance & THINK.
The MSF course is certainly a good idea in the beginning but I've learned more from commuting to work especially on what not to do.
Very carefully and with great anticipation and care is not a smart aleck answer. The one time I tipped over, I was in a hurry and didn't engage the brain before the starter.
This is related but not what the OP was thinking, but if/when you trailer going in/on is bad enough, but go straight and don't stop.
Slow but steady. BAcking down is different.
Backing down the ramp of my toy hauler was an ADVENTURE the first time. I must've backed down 6" at a time on a 10' ramp. Key here is to come off absolutely dead slow/start & stop and STRAIGHT back/down. The last couple of feet is where the bike "bridges" the ramp and the ground and you better have long legs.
This is related but not what the OP was thinking, but if/when you trailer going in/on is bad enough, but go straight and don't stop.
Slow but steady. BAcking down is different.
Backing down the ramp of my toy hauler was an ADVENTURE the first time. I must've backed down 6" at a time on a 10' ramp. Key here is to come off absolutely dead slow/start & stop and STRAIGHT back/down. The last couple of feet is where the bike "bridges" the ramp and the ground and you better have long legs.
I have a 30 in inseam which is not helping. I try to stop very smoothly with rear brake only then only left foot down. Problem is on less then excellent surfaces or uneven ground and slightly tilting bike to left 100% of the time when using only left foot. Starting to overthink I think.
Solomookie
Street Cruiser
norm-9688 said:
Jeez, I hope you're joking. :-[
While I ride a c10 rather than a c14 I do have a short inseam like you and it's still top heavy when fully loaded with fuel. I feel perfectly comfortable riding in all kinds of traffic, even heavy rush hour traffic, creeping at less than 5 mph. I also feel comfortable at low speeds in parking lots and other difficult roadways. To navigate these common road conditions I maintain my situational awareness and use the front and rear brakes, clutch, throttle, and weight transfer to maintain balance. Because of this I don't think twice about taking my bike virtually anywhere at anytime which allows me to enjoy the bike to its fullest because I'm not worried about getting into a situation that I'm not comfortable.
How did I get to this point?
I take classes that focus on slow speed skills and go back for refreshers occasionally. I also do track days now again, but that's the other end of the spectrum. I also practice just for the fun of it because nothing beats the look on the face of another biker when a short, skinny dude twists a big bike around a parking lot like its much lighter.
Oh - I also have a CDA # which means no matter how much you practice you can (and likely will) drop the bike. Shit happens. Pick up the bike and practice some more but don't let your fear of dropping it keep you from truly enjoying it. Also - don't forget to install tip over protection before you need it.
Take a class - master the bike - keep practicing.
If after all that you still don't feel comfortable - buy a different bike. Life's too short to ride a bike that doesn't work for you.
How did I get to this point?
I take classes that focus on slow speed skills and go back for refreshers occasionally. I also do track days now again, but that's the other end of the spectrum. I also practice just for the fun of it because nothing beats the look on the face of another biker when a short, skinny dude twists a big bike around a parking lot like its much lighter.
Oh - I also have a CDA # which means no matter how much you practice you can (and likely will) drop the bike. Shit happens. Pick up the bike and practice some more but don't let your fear of dropping it keep you from truly enjoying it. Also - don't forget to install tip over protection before you need it.
Take a class - master the bike - keep practicing.
If after all that you still don't feel comfortable - buy a different bike. Life's too short to ride a bike that doesn't work for you.
concourscharlie
Moped
I read this whole thread and it made me think, and I'm thinking really seriously and to be honest, for me, I can't tell ya how I slow speed brake. I mean every stop. Is different, the surface, the grade hell even the wind can change what I would do. I guess what I'm saying is I've never given it much thought. I live in a small town in central oklahoma and if your not on the highway then your on a gravel or dirt or chip or any combination of surfaces and I started out with an IdleJet 50cc when I was 4. And I have had bikes since. I got my motorcycle license at 14, I'm 41. And tonight is the first time I've ever thought, "how do I brake at really slow speeds?". I dunno.
But I do know that if my bike isn't leaning my feet are on the pegs! And if it's really leaning my feet are on the pegs and I ain't planning to brake!!!! Lol
But I do know that if my bike isn't leaning my feet are on the pegs! And if it's really leaning my feet are on the pegs and I ain't planning to brake!!!! Lol
n3nman said:
A few things to reinforce what others have said, and add what's missing:
1. I also use only rear brake at very low speed (<5 MPH)
2. Feet on the pegs ALL THE TIME until you make a controlled stop.
3. If you have canyon cages, don't fear a drop. It's no fun, it's embarrassing, but the bike will be just fine.
4. Check this out for how to pick up a big heavy bike: http://www.pinkribbonrides.com/dropped.html
I've used this technique (OK, more than once) and it absolutely works. Keep your legs stretched out and your feet together, and you'll be amazed at how easy it is. Again, don't fear a drop.
5. Getting some more low speed training / practice is the best thing you can possibly do. Parking lot time is time well spent.
+1 on using only rear at slow speeds. I have seen others dump the bike using the front only at a stop if wheel turns sideways.
norm-9688 said:
I don't care which brake you use, if the handlebars aren't close to square when the forward momentum stops, you *will* have the weight pitch over to the inside. You better be squared up whenever you stop, especially at the end of a sharp maneuver.
DAMHIKIJK :-[
(Ok, maybe I'll post the video)
DAMHIKIJK :-[
(Ok, maybe I'll post the video)
For those of us in the woods where courses are few and far - Excellent low speed training DVD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NR_eEo9XpKw
The version i have (from 2005 maybe?) includes a complete motorcycle police training course as well. Engine guards pretty much a must for that part.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NR_eEo9XpKw
The version i have (from 2005 maybe?) includes a complete motorcycle police training course as well. Engine guards pretty much a must for that part.
dave_h said:
Couldn't agree more. :great:
I agree with practicing slow speed riding. You'll figure out the brakes, at slow speeds, within about 15 minutes. Forget looking at the speedometer, gear indicator and just feel the bike. I dont really use the front at such low speeds. Theres no need for it .
The rear brake is very important for stability. As your going at a walking pace, learn to drag the rear brake. After a few minutes, you should have no problem riding this big, top heavy bike at a speed lower than you can walk at.
As far as keeping your feet out, think about it for a second. How do you use your rear brake with your feet out? Do you think your leg is strong enough to stop a 900 lb machine (with rider on), in motion?
Let the engine do its thing, but regulate your speed with the rear brake. Once you get good at this, you should be able to come to a complete stop without putting your feet down.
The rear brake is very important for stability. As your going at a walking pace, learn to drag the rear brake. After a few minutes, you should have no problem riding this big, top heavy bike at a speed lower than you can walk at.
As far as keeping your feet out, think about it for a second. How do you use your rear brake with your feet out? Do you think your leg is strong enough to stop a 900 lb machine (with rider on), in motion?
Let the engine do its thing, but regulate your speed with the rear brake. Once you get good at this, you should be able to come to a complete stop without putting your feet down.
I am having a tough time believing there is a discussion of when to use rear brake. I use my rear brake all the time when going slow, when going fast, when turning, when going straight, HELL I even use it when I'm on an incline and rolling backwards a few feet. Do I use it exclusively, NO. I have become accustomed to using both brakes at any speed in any direction. The trick is to know how much brake to apply as well as when to apply them. Now get out there and start practicing
LouSpag
LouSpag
Lou, often times things that appear so obvious are what gets overlooked. You dont have to go far to see people who never use a rear brake on their motorcycle.
I watched a guy drop a brand new fz1 this summer. You could see him struggling. Focused about 8 inches in front of his bike, and wobbly as all get out. I'm watching him maneuver around shopping carts. Hes going slow, but about twice as fast as he should have been. He never made a move for the rear brake, but he did up front.
His bike shattered when it hit, and threw him quite a distance. His knee looked jacked up as he tried to stop the crash, and failed.
But his mistakes were..clutch all the way out. No rear brake. Sadly, many ride this way and invest in side protection for their bikes, and will never be caught trying to go slow in a parking lot. Heres the other thing. If you get even halfway decent at slow speed stuff, that patch of oil you stock your foot in wont drop you. Why? Because your slowing your bike, under control, instead of bringing it in as a controlled crash.
I watched a guy drop a brand new fz1 this summer. You could see him struggling. Focused about 8 inches in front of his bike, and wobbly as all get out. I'm watching him maneuver around shopping carts. Hes going slow, but about twice as fast as he should have been. He never made a move for the rear brake, but he did up front.
His bike shattered when it hit, and threw him quite a distance. His knee looked jacked up as he tried to stop the crash, and failed.
But his mistakes were..clutch all the way out. No rear brake. Sadly, many ride this way and invest in side protection for their bikes, and will never be caught trying to go slow in a parking lot. Heres the other thing. If you get even halfway decent at slow speed stuff, that patch of oil you stock your foot in wont drop you. Why? Because your slowing your bike, under control, instead of bringing it in as a controlled crash.
grassmere
Bicycle
Bob H said:
+1
I would not fear using either brakes or both as long as the bike momentum in straight line moving forward.
And knowing the feeling when is the limit of the tire to lock/slip. (I am non ABS rider). That is what you will know by riding it more and more, as it also said, every bike is different.
When you know it I guess you will not 'think' anymore which brake to apply as it will be instinct, part of process of stopping or slowing down.
lather said:
A lot of pure street riders do this. I always told them.....told is not a great word. I'm not one to tell someone with 153,000 miles on his bike he is doing something wrong. Lets say, casually discussed and be more accurate.
Theres a whole different skill you can develop in the speed range of 0-5mph. Its not hard to do. It takes about 20 minutes, an empty parking lot, and a willingness to think of it as a rear stability control lever.
A old sales guy showed me. He was the guy responsible at parking the bikes out front of the shop. I was always amazed at how accurate he could line them up. He was way too lazy to push something. I pestered him for a week as I never caught on to how he did what he did at such slow speeds. Finally he said, "Drag your rear brake, &*((-head."
I was watching a bunch of police officers trying to certify for motorcycle patrol. The group of bikes they were on was where old kz1000 police bikes went to die. No lights, crashbars everywhere, dents scrapes, etc. They were trying to get through a very tight set of cones. It was fun to watch , so I pulled up along the equipment area, well out of the action.
One guy was very small. I doubt he was over 5' 4" , and maybe 150 lbs. He kept crashing on a particular left hand section. I watched him tip over 4 times. He was very frustrated based on the words he was screaming. He walked over to where I was to clear his head, and started talking to me. As if I was supposed to be there....
Anyway, I asked if he was using his rear brake. No, he said. They never mentioned that.....I said, "Go back out, drag your rear brake, and give it more throttle." His look was funny. He knew I was not an instructor, but he was desperate enough to listen to anyone. I said, "They are not timing you, you just need to not crash."
I did not stay around much longer, but long enough to see him make his first clean pass.
When you drag that rear brake, at low speed, the bike will stay nice and stable at a pace thats way less than a walking speed. You dont even need to practice. It just happens.
One guy was very small. I doubt he was over 5' 4" , and maybe 150 lbs. He kept crashing on a particular left hand section. I watched him tip over 4 times. He was very frustrated based on the words he was screaming. He walked over to where I was to clear his head, and started talking to me. As if I was supposed to be there....
Anyway, I asked if he was using his rear brake. No, he said. They never mentioned that.....I said, "Go back out, drag your rear brake, and give it more throttle." His look was funny. He knew I was not an instructor, but he was desperate enough to listen to anyone. I said, "They are not timing you, you just need to not crash."
I did not stay around much longer, but long enough to see him make his first clean pass.
When you drag that rear brake, at low speed, the bike will stay nice and stable at a pace thats way less than a walking speed. You dont even need to practice. It just happens.
Canadian Steve
Mini Bike
Ron 203ron203 said:
Since I am umm not tall ;D I take the seat off when loading and unloading into the toyhauler. When backing the C10 out I would leave engine off and in 1st gear and use the clutch in combination with the front brake to stop slides. Back out until the rear tire is about 6" from bottom of ramp and then freewheel straight back or its gonna hurt.
Unloading is much better with linked brakes (front will stop you dead at any point without sliding). Believe it or not the FJR is much easier to load or unload than the C10 even though it weighs more.
Good idea on taking the seat off. I can reach the ground because I do have long legs, but I use first gear and the front brake too.
I haven't tried the C-14 yet. Spring is going to come (eventually). I've been thinking about not only the linked brakes, but the KTRAC will help in loading. I almost dumped the C-10 when loading off of wet grass onto the ramp. It slipped sideways when crossing the aluminum ramp frame. Since then, I put anti-skid tape the width of the door so there is no longer a slick strip to cross.
I haven't tried the C-14 yet. Spring is going to come (eventually). I've been thinking about not only the linked brakes, but the KTRAC will help in loading. I almost dumped the C-10 when loading off of wet grass onto the ramp. It slipped sideways when crossing the aluminum ramp frame. Since then, I put anti-skid tape the width of the door so there is no longer a slick strip to cross.
Unless you are loading and unloading at more than 12MPH the Linked brakes will do NOTHING to help you.
KTRAC also is a two edged sword. when at very low speed, (like starting off on wet grass), too much throttle will often cause the motor to stall. This will likely end badly.
Matt
KTRAC also is a two edged sword. when at very low speed, (like starting off on wet grass), too much throttle will often cause the motor to stall. This will likely end badly.
Matt
Here's my take on this,
When loading or unloading stack all the possible variables in your favor. Get the ramp angle as low as possible. Use anything around to help like a curb or driveway apron to help lower the load angle. I do this in front of my house. Use a longer ramp, load from a higher vantage, etc. I would back my truck up to the front walkway steps in order to lower the distance I had to raise the bike to get it into the truck. I back my bike trailer up to the curb before I load or unload, this gets the height from the ground to the trailer deck to less than 6 inches. It is all about making it as easy as possible and thereby as safe as possible. I use the bike in gear and feather the clutch for braking as well as the front brake when unloading.
When riding I use the front brake almost all the time, slow or fast, BUT, I practice slow speed maneuvers on a REGULAR basis. I do this on ALL my bikes and not just the fat girl. I love my fat girl and I have dropped her once, (or more). My slow speed practice has saved me on more than one occasion, most recently when my front tire washed out while braking in some gravel. My reaction time was very good and I was able to save it before I went down. Man was I glad for all the time I spent practicing.
Practicing riding.....
JUST DO IT!!
Matt
When loading or unloading stack all the possible variables in your favor. Get the ramp angle as low as possible. Use anything around to help like a curb or driveway apron to help lower the load angle. I do this in front of my house. Use a longer ramp, load from a higher vantage, etc. I would back my truck up to the front walkway steps in order to lower the distance I had to raise the bike to get it into the truck. I back my bike trailer up to the curb before I load or unload, this gets the height from the ground to the trailer deck to less than 6 inches. It is all about making it as easy as possible and thereby as safe as possible. I use the bike in gear and feather the clutch for braking as well as the front brake when unloading.
When riding I use the front brake almost all the time, slow or fast, BUT, I practice slow speed maneuvers on a REGULAR basis. I do this on ALL my bikes and not just the fat girl. I love my fat girl and I have dropped her once, (or more). My slow speed practice has saved me on more than one occasion, most recently when my front tire washed out while braking in some gravel. My reaction time was very good and I was able to save it before I went down. Man was I glad for all the time I spent practicing.
Practicing riding.....
JUST DO IT!!
Matt
I had to do an instinct panic stop the other day - elderly gent left turn scenario. I was pleased to realize I went for both brakes. Might even have been some molten brake juice dripped on the road. Didn't skid, didn't get off - I guess those panic stop practice passes mighta started to wire up the brain / muscle connect? I don't know. I chalk it up to all part of riding - if it seems like they're trying to kill us, it's because -- they are.
:-\
:-\
The thing is that the other motorists are not angry when they are trying to kill us, they usually just want to get somewhere. And parking lots are the worst! Looking only for a parking space or the entrance to the nail salon, who has time to see a motorcycle? I find parking a motorcycle at the Stop & Shop to be pretty good slow speed maneuver practice.