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the problem with water pumps -

Steve in sunny Fla

Iron Butt
Industry Vendor
there's 3 inherent problems with the water pumps;

1) they're WAY to expensive

2) they're not rebuildable

3) they like to spit out the inner oil seal.

while we can't do much about 1&2, we can do something about #3. The inner seal # is 92049-1416.

Basically, the seal moves out of it's seat and oil starts seeping / leaking from the WP. I've seen it several times now. Since the oil is in the inner bearing, usually it's OK. If the pump shaft doesn't have any play in it, and isn't leaking oil, it's repairable.

  To effect the repair, pry out the inner seal, remove the circlip, and carefully pry out the bearing seal with a small pick. clean the water pump and bearing with some brakeclean, then repack the bearing with some wheel bearing grease. Install the bearing seal and circlip, and re-clean the sealing bore with brakeclean and a q-tip. Lightly coat the outside sealing surface of the seal 92049-1416 with some red or blue locktite, and press it into it's bore. Lightly tap it til it's fully seated squarely. Let it set up, and reinstall. Leaks from the shaft seal are now a thing of the past.

  If you're installing a new pump, the above service is still a good idea. The new ones will spit the seal as readily as the old ones; in fact if you look at your new WP you'll probably see that the seal isn't even fully seated. Maybe Kaw can't get it right, but we can!  :beerchug: Steve

 
I've also got one with the seal backwards, the lip seals oil into the motor, so it has to face into the motor.

Steve in Sunny Fla said:
If the pump shaft doesn't have any play in it, and isn't leaking oil, it's repairable.

Did you mean 'isn't leaking water'?
 
The flat side of the seal needs to go into the water pump first, so the lip of the seal is facing into the motor.
 
With some experienced eyes looking at my oil leak on the '03 while at the Spider Ride, the concensus is that I need to replace the water pump seals.  I read and printed out the article in the Tech pages, and quick search here on the forum yeilded this nugget.  According to the tech pages, there are two O-rings and a seal....  Any other items that I need to pick up prior to my attempt?

By the way...  If anyone finds thread this through a search... JOIN COG!!!!  The value of the experience of the members of both this forum and the many more you meet at COG events is pricesless.

Thanks again, you guys/gals are amazing!!!! :great:
 
Steve

What kind of action or tool do you find works best for removing the seal (92049-1416) and is it reusable?

carefully pry out the bearing seal with a small pick

I assume this is the same kind of flat seal that's on our wheel bearings?

I'm thinking this is a good idea anyways, its been my experience that the Japanese are known for being stingy with grease as far as bearings are concerned.  I imagine they wouldn't use very much grease on replacement parts vs assemble line components.
 
I have had good success rebuilding the pumps and reusing the spring seal that's on the coolant side. It's been my experience that the coolant side bearing goes bad causing the pump shaft to wobble out the oil seal. Here's the bearing and oil seal part#'s I sourced locally at Akron Bearing:

1 Oil Seal 12x28x7 TC
2 Bearings INA Part# 6001-2RS 12x28x8 Double Sealed

The spring seal can be replaced but I have yet to find a good source, last ones we(zl-oa) used were from a member in Thailand and we found there are 2-3 different sizes used in the pumps.

Here's what the slot in the shaft does to the oil seal
wp6.jpg


See how corroded the coolant side bearing looks!
wp11.jpg
 
Can you elaborate on how you get the impellor and and shaft out for rebuilding?

Mine had ever so slight play in the shaft when pusing hard with my thumbs.  So slight that a machinist friend didn't notice it when it was all dirty and said to just replace the seal.  Worn bearing or manufacturing tolerances?  i don't know.  I bought a new pump to be safe and not have to repeat the job which is just hard enough that I didn't want to repeat.  After three years the honda coolant came out rusty colored so maybe the bearing was rusting. 
 
SmokinRZ said:
Can you elaborate on how you get the impellor and and shaft out for rebuilding?

Mine had ever so slight play in the shaft when pusing hard with my thumbs.  So slight that a machinist friend didn't notice it when it was all dirty and said to just replace the seal.  Worn bearing or manufacturing tolerances?  i don't know.  I bought a new pump to be safe and not have to repeat the job which is just hard enough that I didn't want to repeat.  After three years the honda coolant came out rusty colored so maybe the bearing was rusting.
Two years is the maximum life for corrosion inhibitors in "standard" coolant. Just sayin'.
 
wild man said:
Two years is the maximum life for corrosion inhibitors in "standard" coolant. Just sayin'.

Or 20K miles whichever occurs first (according to our maual)  ;)

And at that point they are gone. Was probably pretty weak long before that. The "standard" coolant can also get acidic pretty easily. On the wifes old car had to replace the radiator. It had plastic tanks on the ends, and the coolant eat through it. At least this is how I recall the service dept explain'n it. And car had all services done ( except oil changes ) by same service department per the manual.

There are some guys on the truck club who drain the radiator and refill every year. Versus doing the two year complete flush thing. They open the petcock at the bottom of the radiator and drain. Then refill, burp, etc. But do not perform all the flushing stuff. Their theory is to keep the coolant clean by more constant turn over, and also keeps the corrosion inhibitors refreshed and never completely depleted.
 
Well....  the press is much more than I had bargained for, so I don't think I will be replacing the bearing.  Lets just hope that by replacing the O-rings and the seal, that l will fix my oil leak problem.  34K on a 2003 C-10. 
 
SteveJ. said:
SmokinRZ said:
Can you elaborate on how you get the impellor and and shaft out for rebuilding?

Mine had ever so slight play in the shaft when pusing hard with my thumbs.  So slight that a machinist friend didn't notice it when it was all dirty and said to just replace the seal.  Worn bearing or manufacturing tolerances?  i don't know.  I bought a new pump to be safe and not have to repeat the job which is just hard enough that I didn't want to repeat.  After three years the honda coolant came out rusty colored so maybe the bearing was rusting.
Two years is the maximum life for corrosion inhibitors in "standard" coolant. Just sayin'.

It was two years and 4 months and I used Honda coolant so that should be worth the extra 4 months right?  ::)  The pump seal went out on my 05 at 32K I believe.  A new pump and prestone/distilled water this time around.

This rebuilding process looks like an oportunity for someone to offer a service.           
 
Well SISF, are you up for it?

Waterpump rebuilding service; sounds like a very good idea.  The ZG1000 ain't gettin' any younger (just like me).  I expect it is the last touring bike I will spring for; plan on riding another decade or so. Quite sure that there will be plenty of company; those with a ZG1000 beyond another decade.

Should be a reasonable volume of work as well as an increasing volume of work as the "old girls" age.  I would send mine in for a rebuild if a service is available.

Regards,
Bruce
 
I have considered it; I have the equipment to do the jobs. The only issue is that I haven't found a reliable supplier for the inner water seal. Steve
 
Steve, have you checked the Acron part numbers as the gentleman stated in an earlier post? I would think that if a person kept a reasonable stock of the necessary parts then they would not have to source them all that reliably. Just order enough for a year or so. Usually these kind of parts are very inexpensive.

I will try to source these for when I do my full cooling system maintenance this winter. I will purchase more if they work as needed.

I will keep us posted. Thanks for the procedural info. Big timesaver.

Bruce
 
http://www.applied.com/

Hello Steve and zlmark try these guys.

They can get just about anything you need, They tracked down the obsolete layshaft bearing for my Beeza.

Plus they are a wealth of knowledge.

By the Way thank you for posting this I have thought about rebuilding mine also.

 
Well it looks like the water pumps are roughly $200 depending on where they are sourced.

The rebuild parts are in the neighborhood of $25 plus gaskets and o-rings; maybe not that much.  Labor should be a breeze in terms of the rebuild process.

Seems well worth the effort; we will see as I intend to rebuild mine.  I get to put the savings in my "Farkle Jar" for fun on down the road.

Better get off this thing and get ready for the family feast.  Happy holidays folks.

Bruce

 
I agree with Steve as to the "so-so" quality of the inner oil seal and its placement.  I did mine at 22K and "sealed" it with red loctite around the edge.  Now at 41K, it has just started to show a "little bit" of mist after a short (150 mile) ride.  I ordered a new pump from Murph last week and have it ready for a quick swap if need be.  I will rebuild the original pump with a new seal as it's nice to have a spare ready.  Be careful about overfilling the oil, that's how mine started leaking both times.  BTW: I have the Bergman screw-on filter adaptor installed (nice) and find that 2.75 Qts. of oil puts mine just above halfway in the window but still below the upper mark.  Ride 'em don't hide 'em..  Mike in TX
 
Hi y'all, new kid on th board here.

Found a little puddle of oil under my 1996 last week which I'm almost 100% sure is the infamous failing water pump oil seal. Been there, done that on a 1986 900 ninja some years ago.

At the time I had replaced it with a generic one obtained from a bearing shop. I'm planning on using the same route and found the size (12x28x7) on this great forum.

I'm looking for the size of the external O-ring that seals the water pump assembly in the crankcase opening. I've seen 33 mm in the common part list but one usually needs another diameter, the thickness of the O-ring's section, to fully specify a O-ring. Is this spec known by someone ?

I'd rather buy the parts ahead and do the job one shot. I know, I could go for the dealer for this one and just shut up about a couple of bucks being way too expensive for a O-ring ...

TIA

Luc
 
Not sure on the o-ring size (search some parts fisches) but on the seal I used a common seal from the bearing store and I felt the bike specific seal was a better design for the sealing surface. 

The bearing supply house seal had one sealing lip and the bike specific had one main lip and another small lip, like the face seal on a diving mask, sort of.

Anyhow, due to my mistake, I ended up nicking the seal on the sharp shaft so I replaced it with a bike specific.  May not matter but it was just a lot of labor to get to it compared to the cost of the seal.
 
"I'm looking for the size of the external O-ring that seals the water pump assembly in the crankcase opening. I've seen 33 mm in the common part list but one usually needs another diameter, the thickness of the O-ring's section, to fully specify a O-ring. Is this spec known by someone ?"

I tried a nonscientific substitution here & it leaked oil.
I eventually bought the OEM oring, YMMV.
 
Well I broke down and got dealer's parts, had to go there for the O-ring anyway ... eleven bucks for a O-ring  :eek: ...

Opened her up before dinner and I was thoroughly shocked to see the seal hanging off almost all the way to the slotted part of the shaft ... no kidding it's been dribbling oil. Nice thing is that I have a positive confirmation that my diagnosis was right. The old seal felt like hard plastic ...

I'll be putting in the new parts and closing her up tomorrow.

At the dealer I tried to get screws for the fairing ... they are discontinued I was told  :-[ Any alternate source ?

Cheers,

Luc
 
I got her back together last weekend & I've been commuting with her most of the week. Not a single drop of anything on the ground or the exhaust pipes or anything ... ooh yeah !!  :great:

Had a little oh s**t moment when I realized I had forgot to buy to other O-ring involved: the one that seals the rigidly mounted coolant exit pipe where it enters the pump casing. Crossed my fingers the old one would hold ... no go. Called the dealer Sat. afternoon, he told me he was closing in 10 min but, great man, offered to leave the part in the mailbox after I paid with my CC ... That was a close call !!

Oh I ordered Murph's hex head screw kit for the fairing, thanks for the pointer !

Luc
 
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: $200.00 for this POS and these cheap sobs list a mechanical seal for every water pump accept for the 1000.

I suspect that mine to has once again fallen victim so looks like i will be posting some pics.

Are both the seals the same? Just got layed off and had to move.

Really bad timing
 
Thanks for all the tips in this thread... I replaced the water pump yesterday (at 61,000 miles).  Because of the great tip about checking the NEW water pump before installing it I discovered that the oil seal wasn't seated correctly (wasn't quite square).  So if I had installed it as it came from the factory it would have leaked for sure (or at least failed prematurely).  I followed the advice to use loctite on the mating surface and I think this seal and pump will last a long, long time.  I probably didn't need to replace the whole pump assembly but didn't want to take any chances.  I will now rebuild the old one and have a spare.  BTW I got the water pump for $150.00 at ProCaliber in Vancouver, WA.  It lists for over $220 so I think that's a SUPER deal.  I recently also bought a left side mirror from them at a similar discount.  Orders over $100 get free shipping too.
 
:) :) Okay good news it was just a matter of installing a new $4.00 seal with some 271 LocTight and some plumbers grease and bingo no more oil leak.

Also shortened the side stand by 3/16" had it welded and stress re-leaved.

So all is well with Barron for now!!!!!!!!

Next issue gotta send the carbies off to Steve this winter for a day spa treatment.
 
To Anyone that's pulled the the oil bearing seal... I'm struggling to get it removed. I have a couple picks but have been unable to budge it so far. Are there any tips/tricks to not destroy the rubber (or whatever the softer material in the middle is)?  Alternatively, what is the number of the replacement part, in case I can't get it removed cleanly?  It's not on the fiche, as far as I can see.  :-[


Thanks in advance!
 
LadyDi said:
To Anyone that's pulled the the oil bearing seal... I'm struggling to get it removed. I have a couple picks but have been unable to budge it so far. Are there any tips/tricks to not destroy the rubber (or whatever the softer material in the middle is)?  Alternatively, what is the number of the replacement part, in case I can't get it removed cleanly?  It's not on the fiche, as far as I can see.  :-[


Thanks in advance!

go back and read post #1 the seal number is there....

I have to ask why you are pulling the seal out if its not leaking.... and if it is leaking, why worry about damaging it????
pry it out with a pick or a small screwdriver...
 
don't get why these critters are so expensive? i just replaced water pump on moms 96 monte carlo...... less than $20!
 
Seals are like disposable diapers.  Don't try to use them again.

Why do Kawi water pumps cost so much?  Manufacturing volume.  They don't make them by the brazillions.
 
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