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Those pesky helmet laws.
- Thread starter Stevewfl
- Start date
ppenrose
Street Cruiser
I don't really see any disconnect here. He was obviously wearing the helmet at the time of his unfortunate incident. You can disagree with the mandatory nature of the law and still believe it's a good idea to wear one. I absolutely believe it's a good idea to wear one, but I don't think it's right to force others to do so. Same thing with the seat belt law. Nobody rides in my car if they don't belt up, but I don't presume to tell you what to do in your car. What I don't understand is why some people don't see the difference between "should" and "must".
PaulP said:
In this litigiousness country (United States) I think the legal argument for individual rights with regards to safety on public roads and highways has long since sailed. From a monetary perspective, as long as we are part of the same insurance pools those decisions are no longer simply about individual freedoms but have very real implications for everyone's rates. There are also significant human costs for the mistakes of others. If we lived in a country that completely buffered people from the stupidity of others I'd say "sure," let them ride free because it has no bearing on me but that isn't how this country works.
Yep, it's a slippery slope. What's fair game for legislation and what's reserved for individual freedom of choice? There have been a few amendments to the constitution and court cases trying to deal with those issues. Without decent torte, insurance, and government reform it's like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. Pay now or pay later but you still pay.
Sport rider
Iron Butt
I disagree about the insurance cost comment Mike. The insurance rates in SC are actually less than in NC.. I wonder if that's just a propaganda statement picked up by supporters or if there are any useful stats behind it. Hmmmm....may have to do some searches for that.
LessPaul, very interesting perspective. :great:
LessPaul, very interesting perspective. :great:
mnbikeguy said:
In the heart of H-D country, I was riding home from work last summer and pulled alongside a shirt-sleeved, helmet-less, sunglassed, windscreen-less, 50-something rider on his Classic. After a brief head nod and a 'nice day to ride' comment, I joked that he was not wearing a helmet.
He said, 'If I crash, I want to go out right away and not be a burden on society as a vegetable.' And then he pulled away.
He has a point but I don't agree with it.
ppenrose
Street Cruiser
Yeah, I knew someone would put out the argument that "why have any laws then?" Of course I could just say, then why not have a lot more laws regulating everything you do? For example, many people would contend that motorcycles are just too dangerous, so let's outlaw them. Same thing with contact sports, liquor, fast food, etc. Both positions are ridiculous. I probably shouldn't have said anything. There's not time and space here to have a nuanced discussion on civics. :-X
SkisNH
Mini Bike
mnbikeguy said:
Here in NH we have neither a seat belt law or a helmet law and we have some of the lowest insurance rates in the nation. Freedom is the only choice, I wear my seat belt and I wear a helmet (by choice).
http://www.insure.com/car-insurance/car-insurance-rates.html
PaulP said:
Right?
I disagree with helmet laws, or any personal-safety law which isn't about protecting others in the immediate vicinity. It could be argued that seat belts keep a driver in their seat, thereby protecting occupants or other vehicles - but then the law should be only for the driver.
So we either regulate EVERYTHING and eliminate ALL dangerous activities, or be a lot more reasonable. Helmet laws protect no one other than insurance companies, and increase revenue for states.
I wear a helmet because it's the smart thing to do in my mind. But I also rarely wore one in my 20's. I'm an anecdotal case the demonstrates not wearing a helmet isn't a death sentence. I rode safely - still do. I prevent being in danger, rather than try to escape it when other drivers screw up. I'd venture that I'd be safer, sans helmet, than 99% of people WITH helmets, simply because I choose to manage my risks. (Again, I wear my helmet, and gear).
mnbikeguy -
How about I pass a law requiring you to wear a helmet in the shower? The #1 deadly injury at home is falls in the shower. Seems reasonable to reduce my insurance rates to require you to wear a helmet.
That logic is just Progressivism masquerading.
motonerd14
Street Cruiser
I wear a helmet on my bike whenever I'm riding it. Same thing goes for seatbelts in the car. I know I have at least xx% possibility (depending on circumstances) of being a little bit safer. If others choose not to, then they need to take full responsibility (personal, financial, etc) for their actions.
If you try the carrot approach and it becomes a big problem, then I could see the need for the stick (helmet/seatbelt/etc laws). As it is, those that choose not to wear helmets or seatbelts are doing humanity a favour by increasing the overall IQ of the gene pool once they remove themselves from it.
Forcing people to do things is never a good option, IMHO.
If you try the carrot approach and it becomes a big problem, then I could see the need for the stick (helmet/seatbelt/etc laws). As it is, those that choose not to wear helmets or seatbelts are doing humanity a favour by increasing the overall IQ of the gene pool once they remove themselves from it.
Forcing people to do things is never a good option, IMHO.
hawkeye
Tricycle
I think we can all agree that riding a motorcycle is inherently risky. Choosing not to wear a helmet is riskier yet. Each of us has a a choice to make regarding the risk we are willing to accept. It is easy to look at someone who accepts more risk than you and believe they are stupid or ill informed. At that point it is easy to decide they need us to help them behave in a less risky manner. It is for their own good of course. Have we forgotten that there are many who look at all motorcyclists as stupid for accepting any of the risks that come with riding a motorcycle?
Choosing how to spend each day of our life is for each of us to do alone. Whether you are bungee jumping, sky diving, motorcycling or scrap booking there are risks that we must accept and manage. In the end you will live, or die, with the choices you make. Shouldn't you be able to choose them for yourselves. Just my two cents.
Choosing how to spend each day of our life is for each of us to do alone. Whether you are bungee jumping, sky diving, motorcycling or scrap booking there are risks that we must accept and manage. In the end you will live, or die, with the choices you make. Shouldn't you be able to choose them for yourselves. Just my two cents.
SkisNH said:
I thought seatbelt laws were nationwwide... enlighten me... please..
as for helmets.. in my youth, Ohio repealed the helmet thing, which I uphold, but will say, when I went out to raise hell.. I wore a helmet.. I dunno why, but it saved my life as I hit the ground, and ground holes in a couple of expensive lids.. fast forward to today, living n Ohio again.... I watch countless swuids jamming in front of my house 50 mph over the speed limit, in shorts, tanktops, and sandles... no helmet is the least issue in my mind, but they ain't wearing those either...
I've learned from experience, these kids n squids don't have a clue... you may not screw up, in all your vast 6 months of riding experience... but when some jagoff pulls out in front of you, and BLAM you slam into them and fly like an eagle (or a buzzard) for 200 ft. and slam the ground, help you .... well...?
I love my grand kids, and I have some now.... if I hadn't been wise, I never would have had or seen them....just saying.
Nozzlehog-C-14
Tricycle
Many see the helmet use issue as a simple black/white or right/wrong issue but if you research it you'll find that isn't the case. "You are a stupid idiot if you don't wear a helmet". You can find statistics that support both side's views but if you think simply wearing a helmet will save your life in an accident then you're sadly mistaken. Have helmets saved lives? Of course they have but they have also caused death or debilitating injuries due to severe neck injuries due to the increased weight on the head and neck.
The helmet may protect your skull and brain but if it contributes to fracturing your C1 or C2 vertebrae which results in shutting down your respiratory system then I suppose you may be conscious and able to know that you're no longer breathing until you pass out and die... If you have a traumatic amputation and die from hemorrhagic shock then maybe you can have an open casket due to the helmet...
I can quote statistics but they're easily found if one cares to research it. A few high points you'll find; excessive speed and alcohol are two main contributors to motorcycle accidents. Speed is a variable in a helmets ability to provide protection. The DOT performs a drop test of 72" which equates to a 13 mph impact. They may provide protection at higher speeds but that's where they're tested.
Those that wear protective gear, to include a helmet, tend to be safer riders. They do so because they acknowledge the inherent risk involved in motorcycling. In doing so they also tend to be more attentive and take less risk when riding. They ride within their experience level and riding ability. They take safety courses. They keep their bike properly maintained; good brakes, tires, etc. The fact is the best way to survive a motorcycle accident is to NOT have one. So "helmets save lives" can be more due to rider mindset and avoiding accidents rather than testing a helmets asphalt resistance...
Then on the other hand you have those that "feel safe" due to wearing a helmet so they ride more aggressively, maybe exceeding their limits resulting in a crash. After all they are told "helmets will save your life" so they put one on and forget about the risk; oil sheen on wet pavement, gravel washed into curves, wet painted lines, incorrect tire pressure, blue haired old ladies, teens texting, failure to maintain their bike, etc.
I have a coworker that was riding his Ninja aggressively on a nice twisty when he hit gravel washed into a curve from a driveway. He was wearing full gear due to his riding style and knowing the risk. He high-sided and face-planted the asphalt. He slid head first on the left side of his Shoei helmet. The asphalt ate through the shell, the foam and just started through the cloth liner when he stopped. He walked away with no major injuries. The helmet saved his life.
I have a HVAC customer, that was on his chopper, that had a teenager turn left in front of him at the last second. He was wearing a helmet and he lived but he's paralyzed from the nipples down. Someone mentioned medical care expenses being a reason to justify helmet laws. I think permanent disability and caring for a paraplegic will cost much more in health care than a funeral. Not to sound cold but a fact.
My opinion on helmet use is an informed decision based on 22 years as a firefighter and 10 as an EMT. Plus my riding experience and research on helmet statistics and lastly, personal preference.
I've worked many motorcycle accidents in 22 years. I've seen amputations, head trauma (with and without helmets), spinal injuries, dead people with helmets and live people without helmets so I have a better than most understanding of the subject, the risk and the pros and cons. Reading statistics online is one thing but seeing the real world picture first hand is another...
Now, I do wear a helmet and other gear most of the time and always when riding long distances and on highways. However, I do sometimes ride without one. I don't wear one when just running around town. My riding style is much more reserved (not testing the capabilities of my Connie) and very attentive. I can see and hear better at low speed in town riding without one so I'm more capable of avoiding accidents and I've avoided many.
Now, all of that to say this... Personal safety is a personal responsibility and personal choice. If you choose to wear gear to reduce your chance of road rash and head trauma then great, I do most of the time, but if I want to ride a mile to the store without a helmet then I should have that choice. In Arkansas I do get to make that choice. The Summer heat and humidity here is not gear friendly...
I don't think the government should be mandating personal protection choices.
Now if you think I'm a "stupid idiot" for not wearing a helmet sometimes then you have an opinion... My choices have worked well for me so far...
The helmet may protect your skull and brain but if it contributes to fracturing your C1 or C2 vertebrae which results in shutting down your respiratory system then I suppose you may be conscious and able to know that you're no longer breathing until you pass out and die... If you have a traumatic amputation and die from hemorrhagic shock then maybe you can have an open casket due to the helmet...
I can quote statistics but they're easily found if one cares to research it. A few high points you'll find; excessive speed and alcohol are two main contributors to motorcycle accidents. Speed is a variable in a helmets ability to provide protection. The DOT performs a drop test of 72" which equates to a 13 mph impact. They may provide protection at higher speeds but that's where they're tested.
Those that wear protective gear, to include a helmet, tend to be safer riders. They do so because they acknowledge the inherent risk involved in motorcycling. In doing so they also tend to be more attentive and take less risk when riding. They ride within their experience level and riding ability. They take safety courses. They keep their bike properly maintained; good brakes, tires, etc. The fact is the best way to survive a motorcycle accident is to NOT have one. So "helmets save lives" can be more due to rider mindset and avoiding accidents rather than testing a helmets asphalt resistance...
Then on the other hand you have those that "feel safe" due to wearing a helmet so they ride more aggressively, maybe exceeding their limits resulting in a crash. After all they are told "helmets will save your life" so they put one on and forget about the risk; oil sheen on wet pavement, gravel washed into curves, wet painted lines, incorrect tire pressure, blue haired old ladies, teens texting, failure to maintain their bike, etc.
I have a coworker that was riding his Ninja aggressively on a nice twisty when he hit gravel washed into a curve from a driveway. He was wearing full gear due to his riding style and knowing the risk. He high-sided and face-planted the asphalt. He slid head first on the left side of his Shoei helmet. The asphalt ate through the shell, the foam and just started through the cloth liner when he stopped. He walked away with no major injuries. The helmet saved his life.
I have a HVAC customer, that was on his chopper, that had a teenager turn left in front of him at the last second. He was wearing a helmet and he lived but he's paralyzed from the nipples down. Someone mentioned medical care expenses being a reason to justify helmet laws. I think permanent disability and caring for a paraplegic will cost much more in health care than a funeral. Not to sound cold but a fact.
My opinion on helmet use is an informed decision based on 22 years as a firefighter and 10 as an EMT. Plus my riding experience and research on helmet statistics and lastly, personal preference.
I've worked many motorcycle accidents in 22 years. I've seen amputations, head trauma (with and without helmets), spinal injuries, dead people with helmets and live people without helmets so I have a better than most understanding of the subject, the risk and the pros and cons. Reading statistics online is one thing but seeing the real world picture first hand is another...
Now, I do wear a helmet and other gear most of the time and always when riding long distances and on highways. However, I do sometimes ride without one. I don't wear one when just running around town. My riding style is much more reserved (not testing the capabilities of my Connie) and very attentive. I can see and hear better at low speed in town riding without one so I'm more capable of avoiding accidents and I've avoided many.
Now, all of that to say this... Personal safety is a personal responsibility and personal choice. If you choose to wear gear to reduce your chance of road rash and head trauma then great, I do most of the time, but if I want to ride a mile to the store without a helmet then I should have that choice. In Arkansas I do get to make that choice. The Summer heat and humidity here is not gear friendly...
I don't think the government should be mandating personal protection choices.
Now if you think I'm a "stupid idiot" for not wearing a helmet sometimes then you have an opinion... My choices have worked well for me so far...
Nozzzlehog-C-14: Well said!
Here in Idaho, it's mandatory helmet until age 18. Older than that, you're an adult and can make your own decisions. I LOVE living in a FREE STATE. One of the last, unfortunately.
My helmet has a sticker on it: "This helmet worn by choice--MY CHOICE." I always wear it, but don't mind at all if others don't, for all the reasons you mention. (Including the fact that the "cost to society" and insurance argument is largely bogus since paying a death benefit for a rider who was not wearing a helmet is generally far less expensive than the life flight, hospital costs, long-term therapy, etc., and etc. keeping someone alive and/or restoring their health for someone who was seriously injured and wearing a helmet.
Here in Idaho, it's mandatory helmet until age 18. Older than that, you're an adult and can make your own decisions. I LOVE living in a FREE STATE. One of the last, unfortunately.
My helmet has a sticker on it: "This helmet worn by choice--MY CHOICE." I always wear it, but don't mind at all if others don't, for all the reasons you mention. (Including the fact that the "cost to society" and insurance argument is largely bogus since paying a death benefit for a rider who was not wearing a helmet is generally far less expensive than the life flight, hospital costs, long-term therapy, etc., and etc. keeping someone alive and/or restoring their health for someone who was seriously injured and wearing a helmet.
Dave,Camper Dave said:
Of course we know there are two sides. We were just messing with ya! :nananana:
Matt
Seriously though. Maybe someday the collective conscious will wake up and realize the uselessness of so many actions of the lawmakers. But I doubt it. :truce:
I wear a helmet because I choose to, regardless of local laws.
Here in Florida you need to be at least 21 years of age and have at least $10,000.00 worth of medical coverage insurance to be able to operate or ride upon a motorcycle without a helmet. We have mandatory seatbelt laws too but you can have all the people you want in the back of your truck with no seats or belts :-[
Cold Streak
Mini Bike
Is that a euphemism or a mispelling?
I've ridden occasionally without a helmet but find wearing a full face helmet is much more comfortable for me at any speeds over 30 mph. Particularly for my eyes. Above 60 and it gets hard to see, even with good sunglasses. Of course we have all had a giant bug or a rock hit us square in the face shield while riding down the highway. Really don't want to experience that w/o protection.
Nevertheless, I'm dead set against helmet laws and many other laws our nanny government issues to "protect" us.
acisroc
Sport Tourer
Cold streak,
I too am against helmet laws, even seat belt laws, But I wear a helmet and use my seat belt because I prefer it. I just don't like the fact that they make everybody use them just because you and I do. Like they are trying to make everyone as cool as us. :rotflmao:
Cold streak is cool :great: :great: :great:
I too am against helmet laws, even seat belt laws, But I wear a helmet and use my seat belt because I prefer it. I just don't like the fact that they make everybody use them just because you and I do. Like they are trying to make everyone as cool as us. :rotflmao:
Cold streak is cool :great: :great: :great:
Why??Pbfoot said:
Just because you feel that I have crossed some imaginary line that you drew??
Why not say, if you RIDE A MOTORCYCLE it should be mandatory to be an organ donor.
BTW, my license says I am an organ donor and my family is aware of it.
If you are going to try to insult people, please try to use a little more imagination.
BOOTH
Scooter
Hawkeye said:
Seriously!? I'm fine reading people advocating no helmet laws, I'm fine reading people advocating for helmet laws, but when you start advocating scrap booking you've just crossed the line. That just flat-out should be outlawed. Please step away from the keyboard, remove your man card from your wallet and turn it in. :rotflmao:
But on a serious note, it's the ever encroaching nanny state telling me how they are going to take care of me and what I can and cannot do that drives me nuts. I'm only a gear nazi to myself. I only reserve judgement for drunk riders because they put other lives in danger. No helmet? Feel free.
pbfoot
Crotch Rocket
And this.- http://www.brainandspinalcord.org/recovery-traumatic-brain-injury/cost-traumatic-brain-injury/index.htmlCamper Dave said:
Insulted?? Naaa, mildly amused at your lack of imagination...Pbfoot said:It is just an opinion and if you want to be insulted I am fine with that. >
Pbfoot said:
Oh looky....Something that vaguely resembles facts about something you are posting... You found it on the internet, it must be true... Did you even bother to look at the information contained in that site?
My step-daughter, who is a caregiver for a couple of people with traumatic brain injuries, tell me not one of them received their injuries while on a motorcycle. Can you imagine that....
Pbfoot said:
^^^^+1
I have a buddy who's an ER Doc. He refers to all people who ride as organ donors. He refers to people who don't wear helmets as stupid organ donors. He has seen his share of accidents over the years and with no helmet even a 20 MPH crash can leave you sucking your dinner through a straw for the rest of your life. If you're going to act a fool and speed and ride like an idiot helmet or no helmet probably won't make much of a difference. I'm still a firm believer in ATGATT.
PaleRider
Street Cruiser
Heck the debate in our house is modular or 1/2 helmet.
We were both wearing the modulars (largely because I have not put the scala riders in the 1/2 helmets) when Thuy was hit 6 weeks ago by a kid trying to split us to get to the far left turn lane.
Beside the road rash, concussion, 3 broken ribs and a tore up CVO her helmet shows scaring right where her face and chin would of been in the 1/2 helmet. Her recovery is still a long term deal. We hope the CVO will be back by the end of August. I did get her on the back of the
Street Glide Special for a short hop this last weekend. Man how she hates riding on the back!
As Harley riders and Sport Tour riders we are having some real conversation about the use of the 1/2 half helmets and not wearing the mesh jackets we both own. I'm glad we are able to have the conversation.
Dave
We were both wearing the modulars (largely because I have not put the scala riders in the 1/2 helmets) when Thuy was hit 6 weeks ago by a kid trying to split us to get to the far left turn lane.
Beside the road rash, concussion, 3 broken ribs and a tore up CVO her helmet shows scaring right where her face and chin would of been in the 1/2 helmet. Her recovery is still a long term deal. We hope the CVO will be back by the end of August. I did get her on the back of the
Street Glide Special for a short hop this last weekend. Man how she hates riding on the back!
As Harley riders and Sport Tour riders we are having some real conversation about the use of the 1/2 half helmets and not wearing the mesh jackets we both own. I'm glad we are able to have the conversation.
Dave
Anybody that truly believes that a helmet will save your life is truly foolish. It may help and may even save your life sometimes, but it may be the cause of your death as well. It has happened many times where folks without any injuries or marks on their helmet died from the weight of the helmet. Personally I tend to wear a helmet since in my opinion the odds are in my favor. But I am under no illusion that I see run prevalent with so many others. (not pointing fingers at anyone, just a general statement).
The I just hope the odds don't go against me and cause an injury that could leave me a quadriplegic or such. It has also happened many times. If you have ever woken up from a surgery (or similar circumstances) and found you were paralyzed, you may have a different outlook about whether or not you always want to survive a motorcycle accident. As far as waking up paralyzed, I have been there. I can say without a doubt, the scariest time in my life when I found I could not move or feel.
Pretty much the only really true statement you can say for sure about wearing a helmet compared to not wearing a helmet. The odds of the family having an open casket at the funeral are much better for the rider that was wearing the helmet.
The I just hope the odds don't go against me and cause an injury that could leave me a quadriplegic or such. It has also happened many times. If you have ever woken up from a surgery (or similar circumstances) and found you were paralyzed, you may have a different outlook about whether or not you always want to survive a motorcycle accident. As far as waking up paralyzed, I have been there. I can say without a doubt, the scariest time in my life when I found I could not move or feel.
Pretty much the only really true statement you can say for sure about wearing a helmet compared to not wearing a helmet. The odds of the family having an open casket at the funeral are much better for the rider that was wearing the helmet.
http://www.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/alcohol/Archive/Archive/safesobr/OPlanner/protection/cycle.html
http://www.saferoads.org/motorcycle-helmets
Drops the mic... Slowly walks away... And save me some popcorn!!! :beerchug:
http://www.saferoads.org/motorcycle-helmets
Drops the mic... Slowly walks away... And save me some popcorn!!! :beerchug:
jdegraffenreid
Mini Bike
I only ride without a helmet when I have been drinking...
I always love links to other websites that tell me how things will or will not be our saving grace. There's nothing better than partial truths. )
Post all you want folks. You'll never change anyone elses mind that isn't open to others thoughts. Can a helmet save your life. Well obviously so and your odds of living are better. But there are many times where you have to ask yourself if you truly would want to survive the crashes. If you think about it, and realize that maybe sometimes it might be better not to survive and spare your family the horror of you surviving. So although your odds (IMO) are better with a helmet. To think you will be saved is naive. But hey, at least your chances for an open casket are better also.
)Post all you want folks. You'll never change anyone elses mind that isn't open to others thoughts. Can a helmet save your life. Well obviously so and your odds of living are better. But there are many times where you have to ask yourself if you truly would want to survive the crashes. If you think about it, and realize that maybe sometimes it might be better not to survive and spare your family the horror of you surviving. So although your odds (IMO) are better with a helmet. To think you will be saved is naive. But hey, at least your chances for an open casket are better also.
acisroc
Sport Tourer
Cap'n Bob said:I always love links to other websites that tell me how things will or will not be our saving grace. There's nothing better than partial truths.
Post all you want folks. You'll never change anyone elses mind that isn't open to others thoughts. Can a helmet save your life. Well obviously so and your odds of living are better. But there are many times where you have to ask yourself if you truly would want to survive the crashes. If you think about it, and realize that maybe sometimes it might be better not to survive and spare your family the horror of you surviving. So although your odds (IMO) are better with a helmet. To think you will be saved is naive. But hey, at least your chances for an open casket are better also.
Cap'n Bob,
If you keep posting things that make sense to people and engage them in posting conversations to reply to what you say, exactly how long do you think I will have to keep posting to beat your postings and Gold star record? 15, 20. 25 years? I thought I had a chance when you refrained from posting for a while, but now it is going to be tough! Keep up the good work!!
I may win in the end though I'm only 54 and have a lot of years left >
A little more on topic, I had the "big one "without a helmet and It took me 30 years to ride again.
Needless to say I would never ride without one, my choice now. I wish then.
Cap'n Bob is cool :great: :great: :great:
Hi,
As an aside on helmets,I thought I would put up this link, on what started the helmet/motorcycle era! ;D
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32622465
As an aside on helmets,I thought I would put up this link, on what started the helmet/motorcycle era! ;D
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32622465
Attachments
Cap'n Bob said:I always love links to other websites that tell me how things will or will not be our saving grace. There's nothing better than partial truths.
Post all you want folks. You'll never change anyone elses mind that isn't open to others thoughts. Can a helmet save your life. Well obviously so and your odds of living are better. But there are many times where you have to ask yourself if you truly would want to survive the crashes. If you think about it, and realize that maybe sometimes it might be better not to survive and spare your family the horror of you surviving. So although your odds (IMO) are better with a helmet. To think you will be saved is naive. But hey, at least your chances for an open casket are better also.
Bob,
Now you're getting into a whole other discussion. If I had to live as a vegetable and a burden to my family I would want to be put out of my misery. Apples and oranges here though. Totally get where you're going and IMO if someone chooses not to wear a helmet so be it. One thing the stats don't tell you is who survived while wearing a helmet but is now all screwed up. Is live worth living after surviving an accident if you're going to be a veggie? One thing they do tell you is you're more likely to die without one. I'd like to err on the side of surviving the crash. After that if I'm a veggie I'm smart enough to take myself out and I do have a living well to tell my family what to do in such a case.
And yes I got a kick out of the links to those "partial truth's" too
I truly do not think it is a whole other discussion. If you read back throughout this thread, others have brought up some of these views as well. So I will lay out my thinking on helmets and laws directing mandatory use. This of course is just my opinion and it is not meant to sway anyone if they choose to disagree with any or all of it. And that's what makes us great. The freedom to have differing views, but still discuss our differences openly.
Let me start by saying that I have been riding for 40+ years. That doesn't make me smart or an authority on motorcycles, other than my opinion like everyone else. I freely admit that I have ridden without a helmet. In fact way back when, it started out that way on that little minibike. I didn't know any better back then anyway. I freely admit that in the recent past, I have ridden short distances in states that allow it legally for the convenience. And I move motorcycles around my home and cul-de-sac in front of my home all the time without a helmet. By law illegal and I could die if I go over and smash my head on the driveway or road out front. But I choose to accept this risk. Does it make me right or wrong? But normally I do use my helmet. But that probably would still be my choice. It's being forced to wear one (or a seat belt) that infuriates me.
People use words like "Stupid" and such to judge others who choose to ride without a helmet (or other riding gear) which they feel is within their risk tolerance. But for some reason, because it is not others tolerance, terms like "stupid" are applied to individuals or groups in general. A lot of the time, the folks being judged and persecuted by these terms are not even known by the folks who use them to label others.
"There just aren't any excuses for not wearing a helmet" Was posted at the beginning of this thread. I used this quote not pointing fingers by any means, but just to make a point. Although I would not use the word excuses, the point I would make is that it would be individuals opinions. That person that we may judge might have weighed out the risk tolerance compared to possible outcomes if he so chose to ride a motorcycle. Maybe, just maybe this person isn't as stupid as we may portray them. Maybe it is their thinking that the odds of being killed with or without a helmet is very high. Maybe he sees the possibility of being gravely injured, paralyzed, or similar to be high by wearing a helmet, as such chooses the route of hopefully passing quickly rather than being a burden on his/her family, the healthcare system or just society in general if such did occur. Maybe they feel that they might ride slower/ safer than ATGATT (AKA power rangers). Maybe he/she feels that he is more in tuned to sights and sounds surrounding his riding environment by not wearing a helmet, and as such protects himself better in that regard than the rider with a limited visibility full face helmets, with sounds totally being blocked out by the helmet and ear plugs? Again, not pointing fingers at anyone. Just using a different view. I personally chose not to judge others for their choices because every argument has an equally good rebuttal. Folks may choose not to accept other points of view on such subjects, but that does not negate the fact that they exists. Because you may choose to wear a helmet for your own reason doesn't necessarily make the non wearer wrong. No IMO, it only makes us closed minded and prejudices against others who may feel differently in their personal choice.
If we apply that to all aspects of life, we would be in big trouble. There are so many topics that you could apply this thinking to that would also be wrong. Yet for some reason we have better restraint on forcing our views upon others. Of course to be fair, there are also subjects that already have this same problems as well. You get one side who cannot accept opposing views because it does not agree with their own views. Thus the other people are wrong, bigots, racists, and a host of other adjectives to describe opposing views.
Then we have the insurance and/or mandatory organ donor type comments. Did you even stop to think that the expensive costs to insurance companies, then passed on to us isn't the non helmet folks. There is plenty of data touting your odds of passing without a helmet. Obviously the medical costs will and must be much lower when their is minimal care given to fatalities compared to severely injured folks who are surviving at that moment because the helmet has prevented the quick end. And suppose as I had said much earlier, they become a quadriplegic or such because the helmet either caused or just saved them enough. No helmet is going to prevent internal injuries or broken spines/necks. TO the contrary, they actually have more of an impact causing these injuries because of this high mounted weight adversely fighting against neck mussels and the spine. So by my thinking, you may be increasing my insurance cost because you survived. Whether it's just broken bones or paralysis. Always two ways to look at it. Does it make one person right, or the other wrong? No just two different points of view depending how you look at it.
It always amazes me how easy it is to get folks to give up their personal freedoms in the name of safety. I'm even more amazed how easy it is to get others to take a stance against others personal freedoms in the name of safety. Again, this can be applied to many subjects that can be hot topics. And the other person may be described as stupid, simply because they have a different point of view on the subject.
So now that we are so willing to imposes laws upon others because your agenda may allow for stripping the freedoms of others. Lets look at some other laws we probably should impose with the same logic. Lets start with your car or truck. No more food, drink, electronic devices, radios in the vehicle because they are distractions. No talking while in the vehicle either. Motorcycles should be outlawed because they are inherently dangerous. So should your ATV, or any other recreational item that is not necessary, but folks are seriously injured by. You should not be allowed to mow your lawn unless you have passed a course wear a helmet, steel toed shoes, eye and hearing protection and full body covering. It's either that or you must hire a professional to maintain your yard. Why? because many people are hurt or killed every year mowing lawns. Chain saws are worse. Weed wacking? No way. Not to mention things like sky diving, rock climbing or a host of others. We need to be protected from ourselves because we are stupid right. As such, you could make an argument to apply this to pretty much every activity or item you can think of. We have people who work in offices get awards for not falling off their chairs or not getting paper cuts as work. Because we need to protect ourselves from ourselves. By the way, the lawn mowing with helmet, hearing and eye protection, full clothing, steel overshoes & gloves was reality for me when I was in basic training for the military back in the very early 80's. So don't think rules or laws cannot be imposed upon us while they strip more of our freedoms in the name of safety. The next time it may be some freedom that you care about. Just watch the news any day. Actually you don't have to. Just read this forum and you can see others willing to strip others freedoms in the name of safety, rather than affording folks their right to choose.
So yeah, it may be a little long winded. But I do think it all applies to the conversation. :motonoises:
Let me start by saying that I have been riding for 40+ years. That doesn't make me smart or an authority on motorcycles, other than my opinion like everyone else. I freely admit that I have ridden without a helmet. In fact way back when, it started out that way on that little minibike. I didn't know any better back then anyway. I freely admit that in the recent past, I have ridden short distances in states that allow it legally for the convenience. And I move motorcycles around my home and cul-de-sac in front of my home all the time without a helmet. By law illegal and I could die if I go over and smash my head on the driveway or road out front. But I choose to accept this risk. Does it make me right or wrong? But normally I do use my helmet. But that probably would still be my choice. It's being forced to wear one (or a seat belt) that infuriates me.
People use words like "Stupid" and such to judge others who choose to ride without a helmet (or other riding gear) which they feel is within their risk tolerance. But for some reason, because it is not others tolerance, terms like "stupid" are applied to individuals or groups in general. A lot of the time, the folks being judged and persecuted by these terms are not even known by the folks who use them to label others.
"There just aren't any excuses for not wearing a helmet" Was posted at the beginning of this thread. I used this quote not pointing fingers by any means, but just to make a point. Although I would not use the word excuses, the point I would make is that it would be individuals opinions. That person that we may judge might have weighed out the risk tolerance compared to possible outcomes if he so chose to ride a motorcycle. Maybe, just maybe this person isn't as stupid as we may portray them. Maybe it is their thinking that the odds of being killed with or without a helmet is very high. Maybe he sees the possibility of being gravely injured, paralyzed, or similar to be high by wearing a helmet, as such chooses the route of hopefully passing quickly rather than being a burden on his/her family, the healthcare system or just society in general if such did occur. Maybe they feel that they might ride slower/ safer than ATGATT (AKA power rangers). Maybe he/she feels that he is more in tuned to sights and sounds surrounding his riding environment by not wearing a helmet, and as such protects himself better in that regard than the rider with a limited visibility full face helmets, with sounds totally being blocked out by the helmet and ear plugs? Again, not pointing fingers at anyone. Just using a different view. I personally chose not to judge others for their choices because every argument has an equally good rebuttal. Folks may choose not to accept other points of view on such subjects, but that does not negate the fact that they exists. Because you may choose to wear a helmet for your own reason doesn't necessarily make the non wearer wrong. No IMO, it only makes us closed minded and prejudices against others who may feel differently in their personal choice.
If we apply that to all aspects of life, we would be in big trouble. There are so many topics that you could apply this thinking to that would also be wrong. Yet for some reason we have better restraint on forcing our views upon others. Of course to be fair, there are also subjects that already have this same problems as well. You get one side who cannot accept opposing views because it does not agree with their own views. Thus the other people are wrong, bigots, racists, and a host of other adjectives to describe opposing views.
Then we have the insurance and/or mandatory organ donor type comments. Did you even stop to think that the expensive costs to insurance companies, then passed on to us isn't the non helmet folks. There is plenty of data touting your odds of passing without a helmet. Obviously the medical costs will and must be much lower when their is minimal care given to fatalities compared to severely injured folks who are surviving at that moment because the helmet has prevented the quick end. And suppose as I had said much earlier, they become a quadriplegic or such because the helmet either caused or just saved them enough. No helmet is going to prevent internal injuries or broken spines/necks. TO the contrary, they actually have more of an impact causing these injuries because of this high mounted weight adversely fighting against neck mussels and the spine. So by my thinking, you may be increasing my insurance cost because you survived. Whether it's just broken bones or paralysis. Always two ways to look at it. Does it make one person right, or the other wrong? No just two different points of view depending how you look at it.
It always amazes me how easy it is to get folks to give up their personal freedoms in the name of safety. I'm even more amazed how easy it is to get others to take a stance against others personal freedoms in the name of safety. Again, this can be applied to many subjects that can be hot topics. And the other person may be described as stupid, simply because they have a different point of view on the subject.
So now that we are so willing to imposes laws upon others because your agenda may allow for stripping the freedoms of others. Lets look at some other laws we probably should impose with the same logic. Lets start with your car or truck. No more food, drink, electronic devices, radios in the vehicle because they are distractions. No talking while in the vehicle either. Motorcycles should be outlawed because they are inherently dangerous. So should your ATV, or any other recreational item that is not necessary, but folks are seriously injured by. You should not be allowed to mow your lawn unless you have passed a course wear a helmet, steel toed shoes, eye and hearing protection and full body covering. It's either that or you must hire a professional to maintain your yard. Why? because many people are hurt or killed every year mowing lawns. Chain saws are worse. Weed wacking? No way. Not to mention things like sky diving, rock climbing or a host of others. We need to be protected from ourselves because we are stupid right. As such, you could make an argument to apply this to pretty much every activity or item you can think of. We have people who work in offices get awards for not falling off their chairs or not getting paper cuts as work. Because we need to protect ourselves from ourselves. By the way, the lawn mowing with helmet, hearing and eye protection, full clothing, steel overshoes & gloves was reality for me when I was in basic training for the military back in the very early 80's. So don't think rules or laws cannot be imposed upon us while they strip more of our freedoms in the name of safety. The next time it may be some freedom that you care about. Just watch the news any day. Actually you don't have to. Just read this forum and you can see others willing to strip others freedoms in the name of safety, rather than affording folks their right to choose.
So yeah, it may be a little long winded. But I do think it all applies to the conversation. :motonoises:
ChipDoc
Sport Tourer
Thanks for that fantastic link, Seagiant! I just watched Lawrence Of Arabia again when Omar Sharif died. The first time I saw it (as a kid) I had no idea why the film started with a motorcycle accident. I'm one of those ATGATT folks who's also a lifetime member of ABATE. Hat's off to Dr Cairns though. I really liked the last paragraph too:seagiant1 said:
Hi,
Thanks for the nod Chip Doc!
I have done a bit of reading on Mr. Lawrence there are now quite a few bio's on him as well as his own "Seven Pillars of Wisdom" that was used as a basis for the movie!
If you do decide to read the book you will find a LOT more detail on the events you see in the movie and what REALLY led up to them!
TE Lawrence, was a "funny" dude and I'll let it go at that, but very interesting!
Thanks for the nod Chip Doc!
I have done a bit of reading on Mr. Lawrence there are now quite a few bio's on him as well as his own "Seven Pillars of Wisdom" that was used as a basis for the movie!
If you do decide to read the book you will find a LOT more detail on the events you see in the movie and what REALLY led up to them!
TE Lawrence, was a "funny" dude and I'll let it go at that, but very interesting!
Attachments
pbfoot
Crotch Rocket
Just my two cents. How can you not wearing a helmet affect my safety? I was riding with a group of mixed motorcycles. The Harley guys (7 of them) were all helmetless, the sportbike guys (2) were wearing ATGAT. While riding down a stretch of highway a dump truck coming from the opposite direction blew sand and debris off of the road and into our lane. The lead harley rider was struck by debris that got into his eyes and he slammed on his brakes (rear brake lol) causing a chain reaction accident taking out 4 riders. While I anticipated this, in the ensuing mayhem, I was almost taken out. Driving is a privilege, not a right.
Pbfoot said:
I find it interesting that folks can complain against someone who is for all intent and purposes, obeying the laws. Just because said laws may not meet their personal views on what is right or wrong. But if the law said the helmet-less rider was legal to ride the way he was, he was legal. There is no arguing if that is the fact. But just to point out, the law also states the you must maintain a proper following distance to the vehicle in front of you. So if you did not maintain the zone in anticipation of traffic stopping for any reason, you are at fault. Not the person who hit the brakes for what ever reason. As such, any accident occurring would have been the fault of the people following, not the rider who hit the brakes for what ever reason.
Second, why did this have to segregate the riders into "The Harley guys (7 of them)" ? This point could have been made by just stating that the majority of the riders were helmet-less. I find it yet another poor attempt at bashing another brand/rider in which this information has zero information pertaining to the actual point of the statement. Unless of course the point is to segregate motorcyclists by brand. I understand that this may not have been the intent, but whether of not, it will come across that way into bashing the riders of that other brand. I hope you can see my point. Sometimes less is more. Trust me I put my foot in my mouth enough times the I think my gums say size 12 on them.
)The third, I find this example that anyone was in anymore danger because the rider who happen to be helmet-less ran into sand over a helmeted rider who might have encounter the same problem. Sorry, but I have gotten more things into my helmet and eyes with my full face helmets over the years than I ever did with any type of open face or no helmet. So that example carry's little weight with me. I have had sand and debris come through open or just cracked visors, many times. And knowing the next statement will be to keep it closed. I have also had such debris come in through vents or under the chin bar with my visor shut. The worst was twice when I had bees get in when my visor was shut (under my chin bar) and could not get out, winding up in bad spots where simply opening the visor would do nothing.
One time he got caught between my sun glasses and me and stung the he!! out of me. I could not stop fast enough and anyone behind me would be scrambling, not expecting such action. Thankfully it was just my wife and I alone on one bike on a quieter secondary road) By the time I got stopped and got my helmet and glasses off, I was not in good shape around my eye. (just to add that I have had allergic reactions to insect stings but not that time) This more than likely would have not have happened without the type of helmet since the bee (or insect in general) could escape or be blown away. So again, there is another side to look at it. And having a full face helmet is not always the safest. I have experienced it first hand where the full face could have caused major trouble for anyone around my motorcycle at the time, where as the lesser or no helmet would have made it much safer to deal with the particular hazard.
Again, my point is only to point out other points of view that folks may not think about for what ever reason. And again, I mostly wear a full face modular helmet when I ride, but not always. There are always more than just one point of view for pretty much everything. And that is true whether folks choose to listen and/or accept it, or not. Ride the way that you deem acceptable weighed against the risks you are willing to accept. And stop worrying about everyone else's personal choices.
pbfoot
Crotch Rocket
Glad we found something worthy of getting you out of post retirement.Cap'n Bob said:Pbfoot said:
I find it interesting that folks can complain against someone who is for all intent and purposes, obeying the laws. Just because said laws may not meet their personal views on what is right or wrong. But if the law said the helmet-less rider was legal to ride the way he was, he was legal. There is no arguing if that is the fact. But just to point out, the law also states the you must maintain a proper following distance to the vehicle in front of you. So if you did not maintain the zone in anticipation of traffic stopping for any reason, you are at fault. Not the person who hit the brakes for what ever reason. As such, any accident occurring would have been the fault of the people following, not the rider who hit the brakes for what ever reason.
Second, why did this have to segregate the riders into "The Harley guys (7 of them)" ? This point could have been made by just stating that the majority of the riders were helmet-less. I find it yet another poor attempt at bashing another brand/rider in which this information has zero information pertaining to the actual point of the statement. Unless of course the point is to segregate motorcyclists by brand. I understand that this may not have been the intent, but whether of not, it will come across that way into bashing the riders of that other brand. I hope you can see my point. Sometimes less is more. Trust me I put my foot in my mouth enough times the I think my gums say size 12 on them.
The third, I find this example that anyone was in anymore danger because the rider who happen to be helmet-less ran into sand over a helmeted rider who might have encounter the same problem. Sorry, but I have gotten more things into my helmet and eyes with my full face helmets over the years than I ever did with any type of open face or no helmet. So that example carry's little weight with me. I have had sand and debris come through open or just cracked visors, many times. And knowing the next statement will be to keep it closed. I have also had such debris come in through vents or under the chin bar with my visor shut. The worst was twice when I had bees get in when my visor was shut (under my chin bar) and could not get out, winding up in bad spots where simply opening the visor would do nothing.
One time he got caught between my sun glasses and me and stung the he!! out of me. I could not stop fast enough and anyone behind me would be scrambling, not expecting such action. Thankfully it was just my wife and I alone on one bike on a quieter secondary road) By the time I got stopped and got my helmet and glasses off, I was not in good shape around my eye. (just to add that I have had allergic reactions to insect stings but not that time) This more than likely would have not have happened without the type of helmet since the bee (or insect in general) could escape or be blown away. So again, there is another side to look at it. And having a full face helmet is not always the safest. I have experienced it first hand where the full face could have caused major trouble for anyone around my motorcycle at the time, where as the lesser or no helmet would have made it much safer to deal with the particular hazard.
Again, my point is only to point out other points of view that folks may not think about for what ever reason. And again, I mostly wear a full face modular helmet when I ride, but not always. There are always more than just one point of view for pretty much everything. And that is true whether folks choose to listen and/or accept it, or not. Ride the way that you deem acceptable weighed against the risks you are willing to accept. And stop worrying about everyone else's personal choices.
We will have to agree to disagree as I find your arguments baseless.
willyp
Iron Butt
Even if we all agreed helmets are the best thing ever, it still does not mean we should have a law requiring them.
Someone asked, 'How do we get through to 7 billion people?'. The answer is, we don't. It's not my job to get through to 7 billion people. It's not your job either. And it certainly isn't the government's job either.
But your welcome to advocate for helmet use. Nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with wearing a helmet. Just remember it has to be by choice.
Someone asked, 'How do we get through to 7 billion people?'. The answer is, we don't. It's not my job to get through to 7 billion people. It's not your job either. And it certainly isn't the government's job either.
But your welcome to advocate for helmet use. Nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with wearing a helmet. Just remember it has to be by choice.
The victim was NOT wearing a helmet.
http://6abc.com/news/off-duty-officer-killed-in-ne-phila-hit-and-run-idd/962865/
http://6abc.com/news/off-duty-officer-killed-in-ne-phila-hit-and-run-idd/962865/
Pbfoot said:
So your following too closely (causing the accident) was the lead riders fault?
What if the lead vehicle was a car, and it hit a 2x4 in the road and slowed down aggressively and you hit it from following too closely? Would it be THEIR fault for hitting the 2x4?
See, your logic fails.
Cold Streak
Mini Bike
JimBob, you need to read it again. He wasn't involved in the accident, much less the cause of it. He avoided it by staying observant and being back far enough for evasive maneuvers. The accident was caused by the lead rider getting dirt in their eyes and their reaction to that event. The point being, that if the lead rider had a full face helmet he would have avoided the problem entirely and there would have been no accident. What you posted contained zero "logic".
Sport rider
Iron Butt
Cold Streak said:
it's not zero logic. his point is if people weren't following too closely, the accident could have still been avoided. motorcycles in groups are notorious for following too closely. Regardless of helmets or not, accidents happen. all should be prepared and in position to avoid incidents. for the record too, I have gotten foreign objects in my eyes while wearing a FF helmet. while it may have helped in this case, I don't consider it the solution to the root cause of the accident. Just my opinion, of course.
Cold Streak
Mini Bike
I agree that people following too closely or riding side by side, is an accident waiting to happen. The way he worded his answer though made it sound like he thought the person who wasn't even involved in the accident was the one who caused it by following too closely. That was the point of my zero logic comment.
Probably a problem here with what is meant versus what is typed. If we were sitting around discussing it, while drinking a beer none of this typing and misunderstanding would have happened. :beerchug:
Sport rider
Iron Butt
Cold Streak said:
I agree, or we coulda just arm wrestled to see who was right. :rotflmao:
after enough beers, most guys think that's a good idea. :-[
(I'd lose that for sure!!!!)