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Tire wear and tire options.

I

I’m trying

Member
Member
Time for new tires on my 93 c10.

At 20k I put on a Michelin pilot activ front tire and a a Shinko 777 rear. I put 12k mostly two up on it.

The front tire cupped early like around 3k miles and developed radial cracks around 11k. The rear still had not exposed cords at 12k.

I decided to step up to a semi matched set at 32k With a Metzler lasertec front 110/80-18 and a ME888 150 /80-16 rear.

After a 1500 mile weekend, This morning at 39k, I see exposed cords on the rear and the same radial cracks starting to form on the front. This set was strictly solo riding. I’ve tried to keep on top of tire pressure but I do know my front tire leaks down a pound or two overnight.

I liked the way this metzler set handled and rode. Is 7k a reasonable amount of miles for this setup?  Or should I be looking at a different brand.

I am taking wheels off after work and want to drop them by the dealer tomorrow if possible.
 
Here we are not allowed to mix Radials with anything else and I don't like crossply front tyres.
I run 40psi front and 42psi rear.

So, here I run a Michelin PR3 front in 110/80-ZR18 and a rear Avon 3D-XM in 150/80-ZR16.
I get between 6k and 8k miles from the rear and about 10k from the front but they grip like dried snot to a blanket.
This mileage is to the wear bars as the legal limit of tyre tread depth in the UK for motorcycles is no less than 1mm across ¾ of the width of the tread pattern and with visible tread on the remaining ¼.

At the next change I am going to try the Avon Spirit rear with a PR3 front.
 
You should also take a good look at your preload suspension settings (SAG), especially if your switching from two up to single riding.  The cupping on your front could also be related to not enough air in the tire and to soft suspension.  Your bike is 23 yrs old.  Have you ever serviced the forks...changed the oil, new springs, bushings?  Not sure about the radial cracking.

Forks-
Static Sag- 12mm +/-3mm
Rider Sag- 35mm +/-5mm
 
Shock-
Static Sag- 10mm +/-3mm
Rider Sag- 30mm +/-5mm
 
The forks were rebuilt at 19k 4 years ago with Progressive springs and new bushings. They do have too much fork dive when braking. I am used to threaded shock bodies for setting sag. On this bike sag is adjusted by adjusting air pressure according to guide in manual correct?  :??:

When I pulled the rear Metzler ME888 off last night, I found that it was a front tire fitment.  I should have seen this before. I picked the tire up out in AZ in the middle of a ride to CA from VA. I probably should have inspected the set better at the dealership. The shops I’ve been to recently just kind of throw up their hands and say that it’s almost impossible to get tires for old bikes these days.

I was going to go with a set of Avon Storm 3dxm as they look like a good radial with correct front and rear sizes for a pre 93 concours but the two shops I went to yesterday say that that tire range was discontinued here in the US. I have an email into Avon to confirm.

From reading other tire threads on here, it looks like 6-7k is a reasonable mileage for rear tires.  I was riding 250cc and under bikes for 10years.  It’s taking some time to recalibrate my expectations.

My local guy is putting a Shinko SR777 on today. I’ll ride it out the rest of the season I have a zx9 front end and a meanstreak wheel sitting in the garage. I guess that doing the 17” swap this winter will be my best bet.
 
If you want matching Radials, the Avon Spirit ST are the only ones I know of other than the Storm 3D-XMs.
Avon's USA website still shows both of those tyres in the C10 sizes (early and late).
 
Thank you Boomer. I received this response from Avon confirming that the 3D cam is no longer being produced for America. I assume any existing stock listed on cycle gear etc are last years tires.

“The Avon Spirit ST replaced the Storm 3D-XM in US. Both of the sizes you are looking for are in the Spirit ST range. Please see the attached catalog for more details.”

Thank you tire guy for the sag suggestion. I ll be servicing the rear shock this month with the kit from murphs.
 
What causes the cupping on the rear tire? I have a '99 C10 with 128k miles. I have an Avon 3D with about 7k miles, front looks good yet.

Steve
 
SJR said:
What causes the cupping on the rear tire? I have a '99 C10 with 128k miles. I have an Avon 3D with about 7k miles, front looks good yet.

Steve
Click to expand...

They seem to be real sensitive to pressure . I keep my rear at 42 and it does ok with minimal cupping .
 
Getting ready to replace the rear tire. Is the Avon 3dxm still a good choice or is the Avon Spirit now the good tire. The Avon 3dxm front still look good.

Steve
'99 C10 129k miles
 
Is anyone running Avon Spirt ST tires on their C10 these days? I have a 110/80ZR-18 front and 150/80ZR-16 on the rear. What do you guys run for pressure?

I just installed a set, and on the first ride, it felt a lot twitchier than I'm used to, or prefer. I had aimed for 36psi front/41psi rear per the manual, but when I got home, it appears I was a few psi short of that. Would low pressure make it feel that much more sensitive?

This is my first experience with radial tires, as my previous bikes always had bias-plys. I currently have Pirelli Sport Demons on my ZX600-C, which have always felt stable and predictable, even when they're not at the right pressure. The steering on that bike feels slow and hard compared to this first ride on the C10 with the new Avons (I do have a 120 on the 600, as the stock-size 110 width 16" hasn't been made in years, except for scooters).
 
I'm Running a Metzler Roadtec Z8 Interact on the front.
It's a 110/80 ZR-18.
Love it!

Roadtec™ Z8 Interact tires | Metzeler

Choose the Metzeler Roadtec™ Z8 Interact ™ tires and discover the pleasure of driving safely and with high performance!
www.metzeler.com www.metzeler.com

www.cyclegear.com

Metzeler Roadtec Z8 Interact Tires - Cycle Gear

The new Metzeler Roadtec Z8 Interact allows the rider to keep everything under control. The Road Tec Z8 follows the rider's instincts with a sublime b…
www.cyclegear.com www.cyclegear.com

On the rear I wanted to be different, so I went to a 180/60-16. <Evil grin>
Damned hard to find but I found a radial in that size but I found one that I liked.
www.cyclegear.com

Shinko SE890 Journey Touring Radial Tires - Cycle Gear

Designed for larger touring bikes and cruisers, The Shinko SE890 Journey touring radial tires feature a versatile all-weather tread pattern for superi…
www.cyclegear.com www.cyclegear.com

I now have a {110/80ZR-18 Metzeler Roadtec Z8 Interact on the front, and a 180/60ZR-16 Shinko Journey on the rea.}
Think the front is at 40 psi and the rear about 32 psi.

NOTE: With this combination, the bike REALLY goes into a corner "quickly". Woo Hoo!!!!
ie; Because of the wide tire width and narrow rim size the rear tire profile is similar to the profile of a front tire.


Ride safe, Ted
 
Last edited:
Wow, I think that's the first setup I've seen running higher pressure on the front than the rear!

I'm going to try and get out for a spin on Saturday with the tires at 40psi front/42psi rear and see how that goes. Hopefully it's not raining again and I can actually try some cornering. Unfortunately, not a lot of good roads for that near where I live (Aurora, Illinois).
 
I am using the Avon's on both of my C10s and on a Versys 650. 36 PSI front and 42 rear. When ever I installed new tires the handling has felt different, not necessarily bad just different. I think that you get used to the new feeling and the tires scuff into your road surfaces. Think rounder profile and mold release compound worn off. After the first few miles I like the way the Avon's handle dry or wet.

My Avon's on the rear wear out the side faster than the center of the tread.
 

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connie_rider said:
I'm Running a Metzler Roadtec Z8 Interact on the front.
It's a 110/80 ZR-18.
Love it!

Roadtec™ Z8 Interact tires | Metzeler

Choose the Metzeler Roadtec™ Z8 Interact ™ tires and discover the pleasure of driving safely and with high performance!
www.metzeler.com www.metzeler.com

www.cyclegear.com

Metzeler Roadtec Z8 Interact Tires - Cycle Gear

The new Metzeler Roadtec Z8 Interact allows the rider to keep everything under control. The Road Tec Z8 follows the rider's instincts with a sublime b…
www.cyclegear.com www.cyclegear.com

On the rear I wanted to be different, so I went to a 180/60-16. <Evil grin>
Damned hard to find but I found a radial in that size but I found one that I liked.
www.cyclegear.com

Shinko SE890 Journey Touring Radial Tires - Cycle Gear

Designed for larger touring bikes and cruisers, The Shinko SE890 Journey touring radial tires feature a versatile all-weather tread pattern for superi…
www.cyclegear.com www.cyclegear.com

I now have a {110/80ZR-18 Metzeler Roadtec Z8 Interact on the front, and a 180/60ZR-16 Shinko Journey on the rea.}
Think the front is at 40 psi and the rear about 32 psi.

NOTE: With this combination, the bike REALLY goes into a corner "quickly". Woo Hoo!!!!
ie; Because of the wide tire width and narrow rim size the rear tire profile is similar to the profile of a front tire.


Ride safe, Ted
Click to expand...
I have had a couple of sets of wing size shinko journey radials on the 05. I don't recall you trying one. See Ted, I have a good idea every once in a while.😁
 
SethInIllinois said:
Is anyone running Avon Spirt ST tires on their C10 these days? I have a 110/80ZR-18 front and 150/80ZR-16 on the rear. What do you guys run for pressure?

I just installed a set, and on the first ride, it felt a lot twitchier than I'm used to, or prefer. I had aimed for 36psi front/41psi rear per the manual, but when I got home, it appears I was a few psi short of that. Would low pressure make it feel that much more sensitive?

This is my first experience with radial tires, as my previous bikes always had bias-plys. I currently have Pirelli Sport Demons on my ZX600-C, which have always felt stable and predictable, even when they're not at the right pressure. The steering on that bike feels slow and hard compared to this first ride on the C10 with the new Avons (I do have a 120 on the 600, as the stock-size 110 width 16" hasn't been made in years, except for scooters).
Click to expand...

40 front 42 rear works for me . I found that the Avons needed to wear in a bit before that twitchy feeling completely goes away but 40 up front felt way better than 36 which is what I ran in other tires . There have been some reports of that feeling not going away with the Avons but I'm on my 2nd set of Spirit ST's and really like them . I need to get another set soon . I check pressure pretty much every ride since these seem so sensitive to pressure but having shop air in the garage makes that real easy .
 
I used Avons on my C10 for a number of years, last set were their 3D-XM type. Handled great, good grip, goid tread life, etc.
I put on a set on my C14 getting ready for a track day in Jennings GP. Later that year I had to swap the front because belts had shifted, causing a shake and vibrations (if you want details PM me); went to Pirelli Angel GT.
On my way to Huntsville for the COG National, I swapped the rear (decent tread left), because of... vibration and shaking.
I'd heard about these issues from Sefsick; no Avons for me.
 
Jorge said:
I used Avons on my C10 for a number of years, last set were their 3D-XM type. Handled great, good grip, goid tread life, etc.
I put on a set on my C14 getting ready for a track day in Jennings GP. Later that year I had to swap the front because belts had shifted, causing a shake and vibrations (if you want details PM me); went to Pirelli Angel GT.
On my way to Huntsville for the COG National, I swapped the rear (decent tread left), because of... vibration and shaking.
I'd heard about these issues from Sefsick; no Avons for me.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I read up on those issues on searches here on the forum. The problems seemed to be limited to a few years and I didn't see any with the newer Spirit ST, so I figured I'd give them a shot. I'll report back later once I get some miles on this spring.

I don't have time to put on a lot of miles, so it will probably be quite a while before I need tires again. I am really happy with the Pirelli Sport Demons on my 600, though. It's a much different (and lighter) bike, but I just never really think about those tires when I'm riding. It always just feels planted, stable, and I've never had an issue with traction. They have good life too. If I wasn't set on trying something different and wanting to have radials, I probably would have just gotten a set of Sport Demons for the Connie.
 
Well, I had a chance to go out for a spin this afternoon, and included a stretch on the highway at 70-80mph. I aired up my front tire to 40psi, and rear to 42mph. Above 60 or so, it still felt "wobbly", about the same as my first ride. It felt kind of like the back was on loose gravel.

When I got home, I checked torque on the axles and all the wheel and suspension parts I'd touched for the tire swap, and everything was good. I couldn't feel play in the swingarm or steering head bearings either. The bike only has 12k miles and has always been stored indoors.

I did check suspension sag, and the front was about 1.75" sag at the owner's manual-recommended 5th line on the adjusters. I cranked them all the way down, which brought it down to 1.6".

The rear was at about 1.25", so I backed off the adjuster to get it and 1.5" (10 turns in from zero) I have a Hagon rear shock with the remote adjuster. I experimented a bit and found it has about 25 turns of adjustment, which varies sag from about 1.125" to 1.75" over the full range.

I haven't had a chance to go ride again, but I'm wondering if bringing the front up a bit and rear down will help. I am planning to install emulators and stiffer straight-weight springs on the front, but haven't had a chance to yet. The Hagon shock has a pretty stiff spring, and of course the stock forks are suuuuuuper soft.

Any other thoughts here? This instability is just kind of unsettling, and something I never experienced on my old 600 unless I was behind a semi and getting buffeted hard in the turbulence.

BTW, here's my DIY sag tools. They worked pretty well!

1000005231.jpg
1000005232.jpg
1000005226.jpg
 
If u have the stock shield, that's normal when ur behind a semi. I wouldn't languish behind one for any length of time. Even when i.had a shorter Rifle screen on my 98, it would get buffeted by the semi's wake.
 
It currently has a Panlite shield cut off below the flip, so it's relatively short. I did find a Rifle with 17" shield on eBay that's in the mail, though, so I will give it a shot.

I only rode about 80 miles on the original tires, but didn't notice this twitchyness. But, since they were 20 years old and rock hard, I was taking it pretty easy, so I didn't go much over 60.
 
connie_rider said:
Air pressure in rear shock?
Click to expand...
None, it's a Hagon shock. Just an exposed coil with a hydraulic remote preload adjuster. It was on the bike when I got it.

I contacted Hagon with the numbers I found on it, and they said it's a 120kg/cm spring rate, and recommend for a 75-90kg rider with capacity for another 75kg of passenger/luggage. So that should be about right for me.

I have not messed with the damping adjustment on it yet, though.

1000003384.jpg
1000003546.jpg
 
Went for a short ride tonight, but with a stretch on the highway at 75-80mph. Hard to tell if it was much different, or if I'm just getting a little more used to it. It's definitely still twitchy and feels a bit "wobbly" at high speeds when perturbed by either rain grooves in concrete pavement or turbulence behind a semi. On the open flat and smooth asphalt I don't notice it much, but a little input on the bars makes the rear just feel kind of fishtaily, for lack of a better description.

I'm not sure how much of this is a particular issues and how much is just the characteristic of very quick turn-in. This bike definitely takes much less bar input to initiate a turn and "drops in" to turns and curves quicker and easier than my 600, despite being 40% heavier. I would have expected the opposite.

I will check the steering head bearings and swingarm bearing adjustment when I get a chance, but again, the bike only has 12k miles on it.

On this ride, I had the front tire at 40psi cold, rear at 44psi cold. They each gained about 4psi when warmed up.

I have front preload adjusters all the way in, which gives about 1.6" sag (at nearly full tank of gas) and rear at 1.5" sag. I set the Hagon rear shock to 2.5 turns out from full damping (there are about 5.75 turns of range). The front sure feels soft and squishy, and the rear firm. Not sure if I should try and soften up the rear damping, or if that will make it worse.

Anything else I can do to make it handle slower and tamer? Or is that just the nature of the geometry of these, or the tire sizes? Or my choice of Avon Spirit ST tires? I thought I was getting the best handling by modern rubber radials. Maybe I would be better with some bias plys? Or a 120 front?
 
SethInIllinois said:
Went for a short ride tonight, but with a stretch on the highway at 75-80mph. Hard to tell if it was much different, or if I'm just getting a little more used to it. It's definitely still twitchy and feels a bit "wobbly" at high speeds when perturbed by either rain grooves in concrete pavement or turbulence behind a semi. On the open flat and smooth asphalt I don't notice it much, but a little input on the bars makes the rear just feel kind of fishtaily, for lack of a better description.

I'm not sure how much of this is a particular issues and how much is just the characteristic of very quick turn-in. This bike definitely takes much less bar input to initiate a turn and "drops in" to turns and curves quicker and easier than my 600, despite being 40% heavier. I would have expected the opposite.

I will check the steering head bearings and swingarm bearing adjustment when I get a chance, but again, the bike only has 12k miles on it.

On this ride, I had the front tire at 40psi cold, rear at 44psi cold. They each gained about 4psi when warmed up.

I have front preload adjusters all the way in, which gives about 1.6" sag (at nearly full tank of gas) and rear at 1.5" sag. I set the Hagon rear shock to 2.5 turns out from full damping (there are about 5.75 turns of range). The front sure feels soft and squishy, and the rear firm. Not sure if I should try and soften up the rear damping, or if that will make it worse.

Anything else I can do to make it handle slower and tamer? Or is that just the nature of the geometry of these, or the tire sizes? Or my choice of Avon Spirit ST tires? I thought I was getting the best handling by modern rubber radials. Maybe I would be better with some bias plys? Or a 120 front?
Click to expand...
Wing size shinko journey radials. As far as suspension goes, one end affects the other. Maybe the squishy front isn't isn't playing well with that nice new firm shock.
 
Bud said:
Wing size shinko journey radials. As far as suspension goes, one end affects the other. Maybe the squishy front isn't isn't playing well with that nice new firm shock.
Click to expand...
That's a good thought. I have the new springs in the mail, and already have the Racetech emulators on my workbench, along with fresh fork seals from Murph.

Regardless of whether it tames down the highway instability, I am certain I'll appreciate re-doing the forks. I was amazed at how much it improved my 600, and I never felt like that was bad. I just hadn't realized how much better it could get, and I think the room for improvement is so much greater on the C10.

The Hagon shock on my bike was installed by the previous owner, likely in the first few years of the bike's life. Why someone would do the rear shock and not the forks beats me, though. The forks are so much worse. The stock shock has adjustable damping, and although the air preload isn't ideal, it does the job. I considered a better shock on my 600 when doing the forks, but now that I've tried it, I don't think I'd really notice the difference for my kind of riding. It's got the same design KYB shock as the C10, just smaller for the lighter bike.
 
Well, I poked around a bit more on the bike late last night, checking fasteners and other things that could be a factor. I re-torqued the front motor mount bolts, which I did without taking any fairing off! The right-hand side took a little rotation to bring up to 54N-m, but the left was already at spec. It was a bit tricky getting a 14mm box wrench in to hold the nut, but still less work than taking the whole panel off.

The rear bolts were both loose, though. The bottom one took quite a few turns to bring up to torque. I hoping this was my issue, but won't know until I can take it out for another ride.
 
They get a flexy kind of feeling when they are loose. Especially when you are hard on the throttle. When I got my 05, one front bolt was missing.
 
Bud said:
They get a flexy kind of feeling when they are loose. Especially when you are hard on the throttle. When I got my 05, one front bolt was missing.
Click to expand...
Wow!

When I got my ZX600-C, the nut from one of the rear bolts was missing, but the bolt was still there. I would not have even noticed if I hadn't been doing some maintenance after I had it a few months and stumbled across it. It rode and handled just fine. They have a dual-cradle frame, though, and although the engine assembly probably provides some minor stiffness, it's not holding the bottom of the frame together like a C10.
 
Well, I found a few minutes during lunch hour to go for a quick freeway blast after torqueing down all the motor mount bolts last night. I think it felt better, but it wasn't night-and-day. It felt less "wandery" in normal riding, but still felt a little skittish in semi turbulence and rain grooves. I got a little bolder and tried wobbling the bars in some clear stretches, and it just feels like it doesn't have much inherent stability, or at least, as much as I'm used to on other bikes. After wobbling the bars, there are a few more oscillations as it settles down, rather than snapping back to dead straight after I stop wobbling. It's kind of like suspension on a car with too little damping, where it bounces a few more times after a bump, instead of stopping right away. It's just an uneasy feeling, like there's little margin against a tank-slapper.

I guess my next step is doing my fork work and checking/adjusting the steering head bearings while I've got the forks out. At that point, maybe I should pull them and clean/grease the bearings.

The forks seem fine, aren't leaking, and have oil, but I don't know what level. I did pull one cap to verify there weren't already emulators or aftermarket springs this winter, but just put it back together. They are soft and bouncy, that's for sure.
 
I've pretty much ruled out swingarm or steering bearing issues, and although torqueing the motor mount bolts seems to have helped some, it's not riding like I'd hope. I'm still waiting to see if more adjustments on the rear shock and upgrading the forks will help, but am thinking ahead to other options too.

If I decide to try another rear tire in case the soft sidewall on the Spirit ST rear is my issue, would a Shinko 777 be an appropriate rear tire with the Avon Spirit ST front? Reading old posts suggest it's a favorite rear tire that people run with all different kinds of fronts.

There seems to be a lot of conflicting opinions on mixing radials and bias tires, but no clear consensus.
 
I'll come out as a tire heretic - not using a matched set and mixing radial and bias tires. Although, I've never run the Avons yet. For the past several years, I've been running a Dunlop Roadsmart III (Radial -110/80-18) Front, with a Shinko 777 (Bias- 150/80-16) Rear. I run 40 PSI Front , 42 PSI Rear. If I run 36 PSI up front, most tires I've tried feel 'mushy' to me, especially at lower speeds. I generally get around 10K miles before they hit the wear bars. Most of that mileage is loaded up at highway speeds. Does it wiggle a bit at highway speeds in turbulent wind conditions? Yes. All that weather protection is a lot of sail area to manage. It doesn't ever feel unsafe, just something to anticipate when approaching a semi. Ride to minimize time spent in the dirty air. I should also mention that I'm running a fork brace. Subjectively, the C10 feels more stable through the corners, not like a C14 that just stays on whatever line you set, but better than without the brace. That should translate into better straight up tracking.
 
mtntec said:
I'll come out as a tire heretic - not using a matched set and mixing radial and bias tires. Although, I've never run the Avons yet. For the past several years, I've been running a Dunlop Roadsmart III (Radial -110/80-18) Front, with a Shinko 777 (Bias- 150/80-16) Rear. I run 40 PSI Front , 42 PSI Rear. If I run 36 PSI up front, most tires I've tried feel 'mushy' to me, especially at lower speeds. I generally get around 10K miles before they hit the wear bars. Most of that mileage is loaded up at highway speeds. Does it wiggle a bit at highway speeds in turbulent wind conditions? Yes. All that weather protection is a lot of sail area to manage. It doesn't ever feel unsafe, just something to anticipate when approaching a semi. Ride to minimize time spent in the dirty air. I should also mention that I'm running a fork brace. Subjectively, the C10 feels more stable through the corners, not like a C14 that just stays on whatever line you set, but better than without the brace. That should translate into better straight up tracking.
Click to expand...
How do you sleep at night being a heretic? Lol 😂
 
Last edited:
mtntec said:
I'll come out as a tire heretic - not using a matched set and mixing radial and bias tires. Although, I've never run the Avons yet. For the past several years, I've been running a Dunlop Roadsmart III (Radial -110/80-18) Front, with a Shinko 777 (Bias- 150/80-16) Rear. I run 40 PSI Front , 42 PSI Rear. If I run 36 PSI up front, most tires I've tried feel 'mushy' to me, especially at lower speeds. I generally get around 10K miles before they hit the wear bars. Most of that mileage is loaded up at highway speeds. Does it wiggle a bit at highway speeds in turbulent wind conditions? Yes. All that weather protection is a lot of sail area to manage. It doesn't ever feel unsafe, just something to anticipate when approaching a semi. Ride to minimize time spent in the dirty air. I should also mention that I'm running a fork brace. Subjectively, the C10 feels more stable through the corners, not like a C14 that just stays on whatever line you set, but better than without the brace. That should translate into better straight up tracking.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the feedback. Once I get the bike back together with new steering head bearings and my upgraded forks with emulators and stiffer springs, if I'm still having issues, I think the rear tire is my next change. I may even put the old Dunlop back on to check. It's in good shape as far as tread depth and no cracks, just old (end of 2005 date code).

I went on a long ride on my 600 (the bike in my profile photo) Friday evening, which was a VERY windy day. I was getting blasted with a lot of wind, and probably at a 10-degree lean angle to stay going straight at times, but it never felt the same kind of "unstable" as my C10 has. Despite getting pushed around by the wind, it always felt like it wanted to return to a stable track, where the C10 feels like it wants to wobble and fishtail when getting buffeted.

I certainly was reminded at how much extra sail area the C10 has, though, as it was a cold ride in 50-ish temps compared to what I've been used to on the C10 the past few weeks. Those temps on the C10 are pleasant, especially with heated grips.
 
Well, I got it all back together with my Racetech upgraded forks, new steering head bearings, and linear damper, and the stability issue is the same or slightly worse. I'm not sure if it's actually worse, or I can just feel it more with the stiffer front end. All I know is it feels scary above 60mph. I can start feeling it at slower speeds, but it doesn't start feeling real wobbly until about 60. I dialed up the damping on the damper, and that tames it a bit, but there's definitely something off.

At slow speeds it also kind of feels like it just wants to tip over to either side, and riding straight feels like trying to balance on a knife edge, rather than tracking straight by nature. I feel like the high speed issue may be the same behavior , just faster and at speed where it reaches some kind of resonance None of my other bikes have ever felt like this.

I cannot feel any play on the steering head bearing adjustment, and they don't seem to tight either. I have not experimented with trying them tighter/looser, but can't see how that could be it, when I feel the same behavior as before I replaced them, especially since I'm pretty sure the old ones were set too tight (I could barely loosen the castle nut).

I have not taken the swingarm off, but I did loosen and reset the preload on the bearings. It feels tight, and I can't feel any play in it or the wheel bearings.

It seems highly unlikely that there's some kind of frame or swingarm cracks or other damage, as the bike only has 12k miles, and not a scratch on the plastics, so it's clearly never been down, not even a garage oopsie.

Seems like I may be down to the tires? I am thinking about getting an action cam that can record at a high frame rate and setting that up to video the rear tire and suspension and see if that gives some clues on what's going on.

So, other than feeling downright frightened above 50 or 60mph, I love the bike, haha. The Racetech fork upgrade (emulators and 0.90kg/mm springs) is awesome, though. I have not pushed it in the corners yet, as I was white-knucking it on my first ride today for rear of wiping out from a death wobble, but the front end feels so much more planted. Firmer with hardly noticeable brake dive, yet bumps are so much less harsh (I used to notice the dash bounce and rattle on every manhole cover, but now it just rolls over with only a soft blip feeling in the bars).
 
I've been riding this bike for 12+ years now so Im probably just use to it but have not had any real issues other than it being a full fairing sail affected by any air movement most of the time . Tires have not made much difference but Avons stick well .
 
connie_rider said:
Seth, have you ridden the bike without the bags?
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I have not. I'll give it a try, but I feel like there's got to be something that else going on. It just doesn't feel right. I have not ridden a fully-faired bike this large, but I've never had a bike that made me feel scared about it being unstable.

Riding my 600 last weekend in high winds, I was being pushed all over by wind gusts, and riding with a lean angle into high crosswinds, but it always felt like it wanted to be back to a stable condition. The Connie just feels like it wants to wobble, and a little disturbance makes it feel like the rear is fishtailing.
 
Cra-z1000 said:
I've been riding this bike for 12+ years now so Im probably just use to it but have not had any real issues other than it being a full fairing sail affected by any air movement most of the time . Tires have not made much difference but Avons stick well .
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Have you run Spirit STs, or AM26/Roadriders? I have the spirit STs
 
I've had both . I liked the Roadriders too but they seemed hard to find so I switched to the ST's . I put a custom 13" Rifle on a few years ago and that stabilized it a bit . I like the extra airflow though as it's real hot here in Texas .
 
For what it's worth, I have the Avon ST's (after running the Storm/Azaro combination for years and loving them) and I have not been happy with high speed performance. I get the same sense of wandering, instability and lack of tracking straight that you describe. Not nearly as bad as your issues, but I can definitely feel it.
I got some relief from readjusting the stem bearings: mine were too tight. Everything else on the bike checks out.
I have read other posts where people have described similar feelings with respect to the Spirits.
I'm considering swapping these tires out for the Roadriders, if I can find a set.
 
steves1959 said:
For what it's worth, I have the Avon ST's (after running the Storm/Azaro combination for years and loving them) and I have not been happy with high speed performance. I get the same sense of wandering, instability and lack of tracking straight that you describe. Not nearly as bad as your issues, but I can definitely feel it.
I got some relief from readjusting the stem bearings: mine were too tight. Everything else on the bike checks out.
I have read other posts where people have described similar feelings with respect to the Spirits.
I'm considering swapping these tires out for the Roadriders, if I can find a set.
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Thanks for the feedback. I think I am going to swap the old OEM Dunlops that were on the bike when I got it on this coming weekend for comparison. They are 18 years old and kind of hard, but otherwise good shape (no cracks, plenty of tread, and no uneven wear). If that changes the feeling, then I'll know if it's tires or something else going on.
 
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bpdutton said:
You can get the Roadrider MKII here - in stock:

Street tires

www.americanmototire.com www.americanmototire.com
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That's actually where I got my Spirit STs this winter. They were out of stock on the Roadriders at the time, or I probably would have got those instead, considering the consistent praise the previous AM-26s have.

I had a good experience buying the the tires from them, though. They were drop-shipped from a supplier, but I received them quickly and well-packaged.
 
SethInIllinois said:
Well, I got it all back together with my Racetech upgraded forks, new steering head bearings, and linear damper, and the stability issue is the same or slightly worse. I'm not sure if it's actually worse, or I can just feel it more with the stiffer front end. All I know is it feels scary above 60mph. I can start feeling it at slower speeds, but it doesn't start feeling real wobbly until about 60. I dialed up the damping on the damper, and that tames it a bit, but there's definitely something off.

At slow speeds it also kind of feels like it just wants to tip over to either side, and riding straight feels like trying to balance on a knife edge, rather than tracking straight by nature. I feel like the high speed issue may be the same behavior , just faster and at speed where it reaches some kind of resonance None of my other bikes have ever felt like this.

I cannot feel any play on the steering head bearing adjustment, and they don't seem to tight either. I have not experimented with trying them tighter/looser, but can't see how that could be it, when I feel the same behavior as before I replaced them, especially since I'm pretty sure the old ones were set too tight (I could barely loosen the castle nut).

I have not taken the swingarm off, but I did loosen and reset the preload on the bearings. It feels tight, and I can't feel any play in it or the wheel bearings.

It seems highly unlikely that there's some kind of frame or swingarm cracks or other damage, as the bike only has 12k miles, and not a scratch on the plastics, so it's clearly never been down, not even a garage oopsie.

Seems like I may be down to the tires? I am thinking about getting an action cam that can record at a high frame rate and setting that up to video the rear tire and suspension and see if that gives some clues on what's going on.

So, other than feeling downright frightened above 50 or 60mph, I love the bike, haha. The Racetech fork upgrade (emulators and 0.90kg/mm springs) is awesome, though. I have not pushed it in the corners yet, as I was white-knucking it on my first ride today for rear of wiping out from a death wobble, but the front end feels so much more planted. Firmer with hardly noticeable brake dive, yet bumps are so much less harsh (I used to notice the dash bounce and rattle on every manhole cover, but now it just rolls over with only a soft blip feeling in the bars).
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Something has to be 'off'. Under average conditions, cruising at 85 mph (where legal, of course) is not tense at all. Heck, that's just merging on some stretches of I-90.
 
mtntec said:
Something has to be 'off'. Under average conditions, cruising at 85 mph (where legal, of course) is not tense at all. Heck, that's just merging on some stretches of I-90.
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Yeah, it's the one unhappy experience with my new bike. I'm hoping I can get it figured out and start enjoying all the other great things about it.

I did just loosen up by steering bearings 1/8 turn and will try it again maybe tomorrow.
 
I'm very far from being an expert...
Even when I had Avons, my C10 was stable, it just turned in easier. Ot doesn't seem.thst tires alone would make it unstable.
With the changes your bike has from stock, could the bike be leaning forward a little?
This would reduce the rake & trail, making it less stable.
Can you add spacers on yhe front springs, or somehow lower the rear?
 
Seth replied in another posting that the loosening of the steering bearings solved the problem. More information is there.

Ride safe, Ted
 
I figured I'd weigh in with more feedback on my Avon Spirit STs (with the 110 front and stock rear size). I put almost 900 miles on them on a trip at the beginning of this trip. It was a mix of riding, with some 2-lane twisty roads, urban, and some 80mph on the interstate. Overall, I'd say I'm satisfied with them and they felt pretty good, although the bike still does feel a little less steady on the interstate, especially grooved concrete, than I would prefer, but it doesn't feel scary, just slightly unsure of itself sometimes. Now that the bearings are adjusted properly, the turn-in effort feels great, and isn't too fast or twitchy, but feels very nimble. It feels so much more nimble than I would expect out of a bike this size and weight. In parking lots, it sure does feel every bit of it's weight and top-heavyness. I had a very near oopsie making a tight turn at a gas station when I changed my mind on direction faster than I could keep the bike balanced. I caught it with my leg under the tank, but was almost sure I'd have to set it down and get off to pick it back up, but eventually managed to wrestle it back vertical. I'm far from confident in low-speed maneuvers on this beast, and not really ambitious to practice, especially before I get tip-over bars on it. I'm happy enough to duck-walk it with less risk of joining the CDA.

I've got a bit over 1,000 miles on these tires now, and they aren't showing any unusual wear. I'm running about 40psi front, 42psi rear, but I haven't experimented with anything different since getting the bearing issues resolved.

I'll see how they continue to wear, but so far I'm satisfied. I'm looking at getting a set of 17" rims just to be prepared in case tire availability for the stock rims gets even worse, but at this point I wouldn't rule out just another set of these, or maybe trying a 120/70 on the front. I don't ride a ton, and now spreading that on 2 bikes, it will probably be at least several years before I need another set of tires.
 
Glad ya got em sorted out.
I've got the same tires. My assessment is the same as yours.
Mine have got better with time / miles, and an increase in air pressure in rear shock and tires.

Great handling, but a little squirmy at times
Rain grooves on interstate are still a problem especially at anything above 80MPH.
I hardly ever go that fast anyway.

Bob
 
Two things now that the problem has been solved I thought I'd add as it was mentioned.

I used to run Wing size Metzler 880's, incredible mileage, if I remember, like 21,000 on the front and something like 12,000 for the rears. I was changing 2 rears for every front. I would not run them again, they are hard tires built for a BIG bike that doesn't turn so much.

For awhile I was breaking the top right front motor mount bolts twice a year or so, turns out, the goofy half washer on the left side was gone. So instead of using the factory washer, I used a regular washer and threaded the bolt through, tightened things up and away I went. Good so far. I still carry a spare bolt for right side though if it ever happens again.
 
SethInIllinois said:
Is anyone running Avon Spirt ST tires on their C10 these days? I have a 110/80ZR-18 front and 150/80ZR-16 on the rear. What do you guys run for pressure?

I just installed a set, and on the first ride, it felt a lot twitchier than I'm used to, or prefer. I had aimed for 36psi front/41psi rear per the manual, but when I got home, it appears I was a few psi short of that. Would low pressure make it feel that much more sensitive?

This is my first experience with radial tires, as my previous bikes always had bias-plys. I currently have Pirelli Sport Demons on my ZX600-C, which have always felt stable and predictable, even when they're not at the right pressure. The steering on that bike feels slow and hard compared to this first ride on the C10 with the new Avons (I do have a 120 on the 600, as the stock-size 110 width 16" hasn't been made in years, except for scooters).
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Ah HAH! LOL so yes…I am running Spirit ST’s front and rear and the reason I say…AH HAH! Is because of your mentioning “it felt a lot twitchier”, yes…that is exactly the the way I would describe my ongoing handling anomaly, which you can read about elsewhere in my postings here. Let me ask you…the bike feels sensitive to movement about the longitudinal axis, as in rolling? But it translates, due to gyro precession, as a yaw movement. It feels “busy” or “hesitant” or not firmly planted. Am I hitting all the right buttons here? LOL
 
mbsevans2722 said:
Ah HAH! LOL so yes…I am running Spirit ST’s front and rear and the reason I say…AH HAH! Is because of your mentioning “it felt a lot twitchier”, yes…that is exactly the the way I would describe my ongoing handling anomaly, which you can read about elsewhere in my postings here. Let me ask you…the bike feels sensitive to movement about the longitudinal axis, as in rolling? But it translates, due to gyro precession, as a yaw movement. It feels “busy” or “hesitant” or not firmly planted. Am I hitting all the right buttons here? LOL
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I think that's kind of how I could describe it, but after replacing the steering head bearings, and then loosening them twice beyond where I thought they should be, it feels great. I hardly think about it now. If I'm on a longitudinally-grooved road, or behind a semi, it feels a bit anxious, but otherwise it's dead steady, and I've really gotten to like the nimble handling.

If you've gone through all the other usual stuff (torque motor mounts, check axles, forks, swingarm bearing preload, etc), I would check your steering head bearings. I was surprised how much a difference that made. If they're in great shape and well-greased, then try loosening them 1/8 turn at a time. When I reassmbled the front end with new bearings, I set them to how the manual suggests (torque them to the prescribed value to seat them, then back off and tighten the nut to remove play, but allow easy flop of the forks). That was still too tight. I had to loosen them two more 1/8 turns before the weird handling went away.
 
SethInIllinois said:
I think that's kind of how I could describe it, but after replacing the steering head bearings, and then loosening them twice beyond where I thought they should be, it feels great. I hardly think about it now. If I'm on a longitudinally-grooved road, or behind a semi, it feels a bit anxious, but otherwise it's dead steady, and I've really gotten to like the nimble handling.

If you've gone through all the other usual stuff (torque motor mounts, check axles, forks, swingarm bearing preload, etc), I would check your steering head bearings. I was surprised how much a difference that made. If they're in great shape and well-greased, then try loosening them 1/8 turn at a time. When I reassmbled the front end with new bearings, I set them to how the manual suggests (torque them to the prescribed value to seat them, then back off and tighten the nut to remove play, but allow easy flop of the forks). That was still too tight. I had to loosen them two more 1/8 turns before the weird handling went away.
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Copy that. I replaced all those items or rebuilt them on my Connie, a friend gave her to me and I did a complete tear down to rolling chassis and a restore/rebuild. Yes, the head bearings are All Balls…maybe should have used genuine Kawasaki. But…I have actually adjusted my head bearings so many times I have lost count…well over 20. And after riding last Monday, I could probably tweak the another 1/8 tighter. Why? Because I have quite noticeable clunk over sharp bumps, particularly while braking. At one point last year…I went beyond this point with tightening and the clunk disappeared…BUT they were too tight as I now had that 30 kmh weave. If anything…there is a VERY VERY fine line with these bearings in this bike between clunk and weave. Regardless, I am going to make up a small label for the instrument panel that I learned from my days of road racing, three words…”ride through it”. LOL
 
Sounds like you've tried all the usual suspects, and have experimented with the bearing preload a lot more than I did. My bearings are at a point that there's no play or clunk, just very easy rotation.

BTW, I do notice that I have a tiny bit of higher-frequency wobble around the ~40mph-ish speed, but I only notice it if I have my hands mostly off the bars. The small amount of damping provided by both hands on the bars makes it go away. From what I've read, that's typical behavior for these bikes, and it never feels dangerous.
 
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