Brake upgrade for early C10?

[emptyg]

OK - so - I'm really liking the new (to me) ride, but - the brakes are lacking.  The PO installed a full set of Speigler lines, so the lever is nice and firm, but, it really takes some effort to pull the connie down from speed.

Looking around the various forums, I've seen where several times in the past, adapter brackets have been manufactured to upgrade the calipers to 4 pots. Unfortunately, it doesn't appear that there has been any activity with this lately.

Upgrading the full front end to post'94 (or ideally a zrx) is beyond the budget for this season.

Anyone have any leads on the desired adapters?  I've found the drawings on the aussie forum, but, machining is a bit beyond my home garage skills at this time.

Thanks everyone for all the great info on the board!

Mark

 

[gfinca]

There was an Aussie owner making caliper adapters for the early bikes.  If you don't get a lead here, you may want to post your request on the Aussie forum and see if you get a lead that way.

HTH,

 

[willyp]

If you have the drawings, it shouldn't take too much to convince someone to do it.

 

[bratmanxj]

If you have the drawings, it shouldn't take too much to convince someone to do it.

I've got a machine shop at my disposal and would like to make my own...where are these drawings?

 

[emptyg]

Hi All - thanks for the comments.

As GF noted - there was an Aussie forum member that put this together in the past - the thread with the information and drawings can be found here: http://gtr1000.yuku.com/topic/4724/Working--jumbo-brakes--pre-94-bikes---COMPLETE-PROCEDURE-PAR?page=3#.T5VWgbPwsk-

if anyone is able to make up a set of these adapter plates, let me know and I'll kick in for a pair.

good luck!

Mark.

 

[bratmanxj]

Wow, that's a hunk of metal but I don't see material of thickness information anywhere in the thread.

...does anyone know the thickness of the "Mopar" adapters?

 

[gfinca]

Mark,

Here are the ones I was thinking of, sold by russellp on the Aussie site.  I remember seeing that he sold some to owners in the states.  Not sure if he still makes them, but it may be worth a look.

http://gtr1000.yuku.com/topic/3638?page=1#.T5V-xvmRbLk

Here's someone who installed them

http://gtr1000.yuku.com/reply/32675#.T5V-ZfmRbLk

HTH,

 

[2fast]

I have made some for the early models which adapt a Tokico 4 pot to a 320 mm wave rotor. I could make some available if there is interest. It will require some fairly easy machining on the calipers, and enlargement of the rotor mounting holes. Below is a picture of the finished product with the old rotor and caliper in the photo for comparison.

 

[emptyg]

Wow, that's a hunk of metal but I don't see material of thickness information anywhere in the thread.

...does anyone know the thickness of the "Mopar" adapters?

in post #33 in that thread he states it as 8mm.

thanks

Mark

 

[emptyg]

I have made some for the early models which adapt a Tokico 4 pot to a 320 mm wave rotor. I could make some available if there is interest. It will require some fairly easy machining on the calipers, and enlargement of the rotor mounting holes. Below is a picture of the finished product with the old rotor and caliper in the photo for comparison.

Hi Brian - Yes - I saw this setup as I was researching and yes - I could be interested....

thanks

Mark

 

[Milt]

I have made some for the early models which adapt a Tokico 4 pot to a 320 mm wave rotor. I could make some available if there is interest. It will require some fairly easy machining on the calipers, and enlargement of the rotor mounting holes. Below is a picture of the finished product with the old rotor and caliper in the photo for comparison.

Hi Brian - Yes - I saw this setup as I was researching and yes - I could be interested....

thanks

Mark

Ditto!

 

[gfinca]

Wow, that's a hunk of metal but I don't see material of thickness information anywhere in the thread.

...does anyone know the thickness of the "Mopar" adapters?

in post #33 in that thread he states it as 8mm.

thanks

Mark

I think he is referring to Shaun's (zrxmopar's) adapters.  Someone who's running Shaun's adapters on a pre '94 would need to measure theirs, since I don't remember Shaun mentioning the thickness. 

IMO, the way to go is to do something like 2fast or typhoon did, since they increased the rotor size as well.  I have 320 mm rotors on my front end with 4 pot calipers, and the brakes are very impressive.  If you're going to the trouble anyway of designing a set of adapters, I highly recommend incorporating larger rotors into anything you come up with.

 

[bratmanxj]

Dumb question, but everyone always mentions doing this for a pre-'94 (that I know had smaller brakes) and only a handful have mentioned this for the later models.  I have a '97 with the supposed "better" brakes, but how much of an upgrade are the Nissin or Tokico brakes?

I was looking at doing the whole system upgrade (320mm rotors, calipers, braided lines) and putting together ideas.  I've seen plenty of photos but no one ever discussed materials as far as I have found. This was on my list for next winter's modifications so I'm doing the leg work this riding season and acquiring parts & materials.

 

[slybonesjesse]

Having done the 6-pot calipers with stock rotors and then later updated to 6-pots with 320mm rotors, the calipers is where its at. While the  6-pots with 320mm rotors is better then 6 pots with 300mm stock rotors, the majority of the improvement comes from the calipers IMO.

So from a cost point of view, if you can afford the upgrade to 320's while your at it so to speak, then by all means incorporate that too as Gary mentioned. It is a good idea. Why do it twice, etc. This is all decent advice.

But on the other hand, if funds are an issue but time in your garage with calipers, machining tools, etc is not as big an issue then making adapters to fit the stock rotors is still a great way to go. Caliper upgrades, 4 pot or 6 pot, on the stock rotors is such an improvement. If this is all you can do, by all means DO IT. DO NOT skip this mod because you cannot afford to upgrade to 320mm rotors at the same time. Thats just crazy IMO.

On Edit, the only reason to skip this mod is because no one is making the dang things right now. But if you can make your own, or know someone who can make them, then get them.  If you ever see brackets on sale again, buy them the second you see them. DO NOT wait. Even if you have to wait to get calipers and install the whole thing later, buy the brackets the moment you see them available.

Down the road if you decide to update to 320mm rotors, then yes you will have to redo your brackets.

On the other hand if you decide that 4 pot calipers on the stock rotors is where you are going to stay, no worries. IMO This is the best part of the upgrade and you WILL have killer brakes on your C10.

 

[gfinca]

As Slybones states, the majority of the braking improvement come from the calipers, however, the pads for the 6 and 4 piston calipers are wider than the stock pads, and do not fit on the friction band of the later C10 rotors.  This means the caliper must be "cheated" to the inside or outside.  I know quite a few of Shaun's adapters were cheated to the outside so that a small portion of the pad did not contact the rotor.  If the caliper is cheated to the inside, the pad will bear in the area of the stock rotor that is painted.  Most aftermarket rotors don't have the painted area, so this would not be an issue with them, but if you are buying new rotors anyway, then it makes sense to use the rotors that are larger and have a friction band that is compatible with the calipers.  The 310 mm and 320 mm rotors have a wider friction band, so this is not an issue with them, and is another good reason to go with larger rotors on the later bikes if possible.  I don't know if there is a similar issue with the early bike rotors, but it is something to consider.  BTW, good used 320 mm rotors that bolt on to the later C10 are commonly available for less than $100 a set.

JMHO,

HTH,

 

[bratmanxj]

6 and 4 piston calipers

I've got the info for the 4-pot...what model & year for the 6-pot?  I know there is some $$$ in pads between the 4 & 6, is the performance worth the extra cost?

BTW, good used 320 mm rotors that bolt on to the later C10 are commonly available for less than $100 a set.

Again, I have some info from the other forums, but you guys seam to have 1st hand knowledge of this, and I can't thank you enough for the help.  What model & year used rotors will work?

 

[slybonesjesse]

I dont recall the model and year for my 6 pots. I would just go for the 4 pots.

Thinking back to Shaun's designs the 4 pots were able to mount in the stock location, or very similar. The 6 pots were  mounted down lower and needed to have longer brake lines to work. This makes the 4 pots better in that you dont have to also spend the $$ on new lines too.

From the reports the 4 pots are just as good as the 4 pots. As GF-in-CA mentions there the 310 and 320 rotors have larger friction areas. My 6 pots are only slightly bigger than stock and DO NOT use the complete friction area of my 320mm rotors.  -- A set of 4 pots that were intended for 320mm rotors and used the complete friction area would be a lot better than my 6 pots. -- Even then I think  a set of 4 pots with the same area as my 6 pots are similar in performance.  I think GF-in-CA is completely right in matching up the calipers to your friction area as best you can.

 

[slybonesjesse]

Here are how my 6 pots are mounted from ZRXMopar back when. ( And for those to remember the order if things, these are of the original 6 pot design ). You can see how these are mounted. That I recall the 4 pots were not down this low.

 

[slybonesjesse]

As Slybones states, the majority of the braking improvement come from the calipers, however, the pads for the 6 and 4 piston calipers are wider than the stock pads, and do not fit on the friction band of the later C10 rotors.  This means the caliper must be "cheated" to the inside or outside.  I know quite a few of Shaun's adapters were cheated to the outside so that a small portion of the pad did not contact the rotor.  If the caliper is cheated to the inside, the pad will bear in the area of the stock rotor that is painted.  Most aftermarket rotors don't have the painted area, so this would not be an issue with them, but if you are buying new rotors anyway, then it makes sense to use the rotors that are larger and have a friction band that is compatible with the calipers.  The 310 mm and 320 mm rotors have a wider friction band, so this is not an issue with them, and is another good reason to go with larger rotors on the later bikes if possible.  I don't know if there is a similar issue with the early bike rotors, but it is something to consider.  BTW, good used 320 mm rotors that bolt on to the later C10 are commonly available for less than $100 a set.

JMHO,

HTH,

Agree.  Here is how my 6-pot pads wore when using the stock rotors. I would occasionally take them off and perform pad maintenance taking off the ridge. So you MUST keep this in mind if you use updated calipers on the stock rotors. Still I would do it again. There are a lot of cool upgrades I have done, from SISF and others. The brakes are my fav. Even with this consideration I would do it again in a heart beat. But I 100% agree with GF-in-CA, you need to know this! And 320mm rotors would not have this problem.

 

[bratmanxj]

Here are how my 6 pots are mounted from ZRXMopar back when. ( And for those to remember the order if things, these are of the original 6 pot design ). You can see how these are mounted. That I recall the 4 pots were not down this low.

When you have a chance can you get me a measurement on the material thickness.  I've seen people mock-up the bracket with acrylic/plexiglass but I need to know what thickness steel plate.

 

[gfinca]

6 and 4 piston calipers

I've got the info for the 4-pot...what model & year for the 6-pot?  I know there is some $$$ in pads between the 4 & 6, is the performance worth the extra cost?

BTW, good used 320 mm rotors that bolt on to the later C10 are commonly available for less than $100 a set.

Again, I have some info from the other forums, but you guys seam to have 1st hand knowledge of this, and I can't thank you enough for the help.  What model & year used rotors will work?

Bratman,

The models that I am aware of that had the 6 pots are:

Kawasaki ZRX1100/ 1200  any year
Kawasaki ZX9  1997 thru 2003
Suzuki Hayabusa  1999 thru 2007

There are others, but I would need to do a little more digging.  That said, the Tokico 6 pots have only slightly more stopping power than the older Tokico 4 pots, and have slightly less power than the newer Tokico 4 pots, plus I have heard the 6 pots require more maintenance than the 4 pots due to more pistons and more sensitivity to contaminates and corrosion.  Some of the ZRX guys even swap their 6 pots out for 4 pots.  They also tend to be more expensive used.    If you already have some 6 pots lying around then they would be good candidates, but if you don't have the calipers yet, I would recommend using the 4 pots over the 6 pots.  The older style 4 pots were used on the ZX11D (1993 thru 2001) and ZX9B (1994 thru 1996).  If you need a more complete listing, I can dig it up.  The newer 4 pots were used on the GSXR600/ 750 in the late 90's and early 2000's, on some Triumphs, and on the ZZR1200 among others.  The main differences between the older and newer styles are the size of the pistons and the size of the attachment bolts.  The Nissin 4 pots that were mounted to various mid to late 90's Honda sport bikes are interchangeable with the newer Tokico 4 pots.

The 320 mm rotors that will bolt to the later C10's were used on the following bikes:

Kawasaki ZX7 (1991 to 2003)
Kawasaki ZX9 (1994 to 1997)
Kawasaki ZX11 (1993 to 2001)
Kawasaki ZZR1200 (2002 to 2005)
Kawasaki Mean Streak (2001 to 2008)

HTH,

 

[willyp]

Dumb question, but everyone always mentions doing this for a pre-'94 (that I know had smaller brakes) and only a handful have mentioned this for the later models.  I have a '97 with the supposed "better" brakes, but how much of an upgrade are the Nissin or Tokico brakes?

I was looking at doing the whole system upgrade (320mm rotors, calipers, braided lines) and putting together ideas.  I've seen plenty of photos but no one ever discussed materials as far as I have found. This was on my list for next winter's modifications so I'm doing the leg work this riding season and acquiring parts & materials.

The later bikes will still benefit from an upgrade. Worth it? I reckon only you can answer that, some will say the later brakes are fine for them, others will say you can't put a price on safety, and you should upgrade at any price.
Do a search and there are a number of threads. However if you still have questions start a thread. As there are few significant differences that it might be confusing for the original poster to discuss both in one thread.

Due to the fact that the calipers mount on the same side of the bracket as the fork tabs, I don't think the thickness of the brackets is critical, as long as it is thick enough not to bend from the force of the calipers. I would think 1/4" would be adequate, but I'd probably go 3/8" to be sure, as I wouldn't have a clue how to calculate stress analysis type stuff. Start with some bar stock the same width as the bracket.

 

[bratmanxj]

I did some looking over the bike last night...and I think as long as I use the same material as the stock brake caliper brackets I should be fine.  I've been doing some eBay/CL shopping and can probably get the whole project done with 320mm rotors & Tokico 4-pots off an '03 GSXR for under $200 including new brake pads.  So I might start the slow acquisition of parts....all my discussions and questions from yesterday were from photos/memory while sitting at my work desk.

The brakes have been my only complaint with this bike.  I came off a HD touring bike that I put quite a bit of attention into getting the brakes perfect.  I cleaned the calipers and bled out the system but I still do not feel confidant in the brakes, but it also still getting a feel for the bike.

 

[centex]

Here are how my 6 pots are mounted from ZRXMopar back when. ( And for those to remember the order if things, these are of the original 6 pot design ). You can see how these are mounted. That I recall the 4 pots were not down this low.

When you have a chance can you get me a measurement on the material thickness.  I've seen people mock-up the bracket with acrylic/plexiglass but I need to know what thickness steel plate.

With apology to the OP, your thread seems to already be highjacked & mixed with questions about pre- and post-94 upgrades:

Click here to see my post about a post-94, 4-pot+320mm upgrade.

Read carefully, I give full specs for parts, materials and tools used to make the adaptor in that post.  No, I do not have a pattern to sell, post or otherwise share.  IMHO if you can't get through the pattern-making step you should not be making this critical piece yourself.

Ooops - I didn't mention in the original post that the bolts for fastening the 4-pots to the adaptor plate are flange-head metric from Fastenal.  I installed those with locktite RED (permanent - need heat to remove) and I undo the adaptor at the fork to change wheels.

HTH in some way for both early and late Connie owners looking for better brakes.....have fun - it is a Very Worthwhile Improvement  :beerchug:

 

[bratmanxj]

Centex...Thank you Thank you Thank you...that was exactly the information I was looking for.

 

[emptyg]

OK - it's been about 4 weeks since my initial questions and figured I'd give an update - I was able to pick up a pair of "used" adapters and a set of T calipers from a forum member for a good price and I was finally able to get around to mounting them this week.

Even though I'm not 100% happy with the bleeding job yet - already a fantastic improvement! 

thanks everyone for all of the information.  Eventually, I'll probably either upgrade the rotors to the "wave' style, or, perhaps play around with another set of brackets and larger rotors now that I have the Tokicos mounted.

thanks again!

Mark

 

[Wess]

I did the 6 pot upgrade with the standard rotor and wish I had gone with the 320s.  I would buy them if Shaun was still around but if someone can send me a trace of the 320 adapter I can get them made.

:'(

 

[bratmanxj]

My Nissin Calipers came in the mail yesterday...unfortunately we are moving into a new house next week so it might be a few weeks before I can make up the brackets.  Maybe I'll use that time to track down some 320 mm rotors.