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ECU reflash fine tuning at Guhl Motors

Fred H.

Fred H.

Member
Member
I just wanted to pass on that Rob S. took his bike back to Guhl motors today and Don Guhl applied the fuel trims I developed on my Autotune system into the ECU and he then put it back on the dyno. Its a bit hard to compare it to the previous dyno run since the atmospheric conditions were a lot different, but it appears that it made a little more HP and torque in the lower RPM ranges, and the A/F readings looked good. This will probably be the last adjustment made to the reflash for a while as it appears to be pretty well dialed in now, and I can tell you from my own bike that it is a great improvement over stock and the rideability is excellent. I'm satisfied with it enough that I don't think I will make any more changes to it, and I don't feel like I want or need any more power out of the bike, as I can already spin the rear tire on corner exits easily.

The really good news is that the traction control and economy mode are unaffected, and from what testing I have done, it appears I have picked up about 2-3 MPG even in the normal mode.  So all in all, I'm real happy with the way the bike rides and responds. Now that the secondary butterflies open up sooner, they no longer restrict torque and throttle response on the lower end, and now the bike rides like a 1400cc motorcycle should.

A BIG THANKS goes out to both Guhl Motors and Rob S. for letting them test his bike on the dyno and reflash the ECU.

If you're interested in having your ECU reflashed the cost is $375. Guhl Motors web site is here: http://www.guhlmotors.com/
 
Wayne_Sikorski_NJ said:
This is so tempting, being as he is just under two hours ride from here... ;D
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Wayne-

It's my bike that has been the test bike.  I'm not exactly sure where you are in "South Jersey" but I'm just north of Rt78 near Clinton.  If you are that interested we could meet someplace and compare notes.  I've got more than a month of some pretty serious riding to include long distance (Maryland and Vermont) and lots of riding in the twisties both solo and two up.  The difference this mod makes over a stock bike is pretty impressive, especially when riding two up.  The increase in torque really makes the bike much more rideable with a lot less effort on the rider's part.  I didn't buy this bike for the fuel mileage, but I've not seen a decrease in mileage as a result of the mod.  Plus, the ECO mode is unaffected.  All you need to do is select it and you are back to stock ECO mode.  If you do decide to have the reflash done, I highly recommend you ride over to Guhl and have it done literally while you wait.  Shouldn't take more than an hour, TOPS, since there is no need to do a dyno run.  Just make sure you set an appointment up as Guhl is a small place with only two guys (Don and Rob) doing this type of work.  This would also give you a great opportunity to play on the ride home!

Let me know what more you need to make the decision to have it done. 

 
wellstroked said:
Fred,

Are you saying that Guhl will be using your specs for the reflash if I send in my ECM? 

Thanks,

Jim
Click to expand...

It will be up to you. Just tell them what you want them to load and they will load it. Though I think that Guhl will probably use my fuel trims as the normal standard unless directed otherwise.

I went through 8 iterations of trims over multiple days and carefully averaged the trims from the individual gears into one file. I then loaded that new averaged file into my PCV and rode the bike and looked at the new trims to measure how close it was. I feel pretty confident in the final map. My bike is totally stock and nicely broken in with about 13K on the odometer and had a new air filter installed before I started making trim files. Jamie at Fuel Moto also told me he did some testing with the PCV Autotune and compared the files it made to ones he did on the dyno, and he said they were almost identical. In some regards, I think the files made from the Autotune may be better, since they represent real world riding instead of static testing on a dyno. My wideband O2 sensor is also installed upstream from the CATs, where the tunes they make on the dyno have the wideband O2 sensor AFTER the CATs, which can skew the readings slightly.

If you would like to look at any of the charts of the files I made, I have them posted here:

http://www.angelridevideos.com/PCV/

The final fuel trim applied to the Guhl reflash will be the average of gears 3,4, & 5 (PINK tab) on the file dated 6-24-2011. These trims represent the DIFFERENCE between the original Guhl Flash and the corrections my Autotune wanted to make after Guhl reflashed my ECU. The original Guhl reflash removed 5% fuel across the board, so these adjustments will be in addition to that.
 
Hey Wayne, how about we ride out there together?  Don used my ECU to get the stock data and figure out the maps.  I have not been able to get back there to get a reflash yet.
 
millsan1 said:
Hey Wayne, how about we ride out there together?  Don used my ECU to get the stock data and figure out the maps.  I have not been able to get back there to get a reflash yet.
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This looks like something I want to do. Save the trouble of removing the flies. The only time I can get out there would be a Saturday though.
 
Say, Fred. One question.

I am currently running a Leo Vince slip-on with quiet insert. Installed mostly to replace the stock behemoth. Will this be an issue with the current Guhl tuning map?

 
Wayne_Sikorski_NJ said:
Say, Fred. One question.

I am currently running a Leo Vince slip-on with quiet insert. Installed mostly to replace the stock behemoth. Will this be an issue with the current Guhl tuning map?
Click to expand...

I suspect it would be fine, but the only way to really know would be to put it on the dyno. If you are going there in person, I'd suggest putting it on the dyno and have Don check it.
 
Stev-0 said:
How does the re-flash affect the warranty?
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I suspect it would depend on what actually breaks on the motorcycle and if it can be attributed to the changes in the reflash. I guess it would also depend on the dealership. In the end, its much like any other modification you can do to the bike. If the source of a problem is due to changes the owner made or aftermarket stuff added, then obviously Kawasaki isn't going to warranty it. But if your gas tank rusts out or your fuel pump fails, I doubt an ECU reflash would have any impact on warranty coverage of those items. But then again, it might just depend on how picky the dealer wants to be.
 
this is making me ask now, do you think that the KDS unit at a dealership can see that the ecu was flashed, and changed? Just curious as I have not had my hands on one yet to actually see what a dealer can see. Have they (Guhl) told you what can bee seen?
 
I don't know what the KDS3 can see, but I'd be surprised if they could tell. I know some ECU's use CVN codes in them that can be looked at to see if it has been altered or not, but I don't know if the C14 ECU has any such codes.

If you are worried about your warranty being affected, then you might be best advised to leave it alone. Personally, I bought my bike to ride and enjoy, and the level of improvement I get from having the low end torque returned that the butterflies rob me of far outweighs any worries about my warranty. So I guess it just depends on your level of risk tolerance and how much you feel you want the extra low end torque and improved throttle response.
 
Today Guhl Motors loaded a new tune into Rob's bike that has an even more aggressive secondary throttle opening rate, along with the fuel maps that I made using my Autotune system. Rob sent me an email and says that the bike now accelerates even harder. So I think we now have a tune that pretty much mimicks total butterfly removal and remapping with a Power Commander. They didn't have time to put it on the dyno, but hopefully they will get to do that sometime in the future. This new map has the butterflies almost 100% open nearly all the time.

I'm currently ridding on a slightly less aggressive map, which the original dyno chart shows, and it is also a very nice tune. So I think Don now has two very good tunes available, one with a moderate increase, and one with a more aggressive increase. In some ways, I actually like the moderate map more than when I had the butterflies totally removed, as it seems to be just a little more rider friendly in some regards, though I haven't yet ridden on Don's new map. I'll probably send my ECU back and have him reflash it again so I can try it out.
 
Fred_Harmon_TX said:
Today Guhl Motors loaded a new tune into Rob's bike that has an even more aggressive secondary throttle opening rate, along with the fuel maps that I made using my Autotune system. Rob sent me an email and says that the bike now accelerates even harder. So I think we now have a tune that pretty much mimicks total butterfly removal and remapping with a Power Commander. They didn't have time to put it on the dyno, but hopefully they will get to do that sometime in the future. This new map has the butterflies almost 100% open nearly all the time.
Click to expand...

I'm VERY happy with the map Don installed today.  It provides the more aggressive torque without the problem of the loss of 'engine braking' (as Don called it) that I had previously.  I got to play a bit in the twisties on the way home and power delivery is very smooth and predictable.  There is no hint of abruptness at all.  If you are conservative with the throttle, you won't wake up those ponies that are hiding down there.  Give the throttle a bit of a twist and things come alive.  Twist it harder and HOLD ON because you start covering a lot of ground really quickly.  On the highway you really need to be careful with your speed as that extra HP and torque in the lower RPM range really pays off.  Its very easy to go fast without making the bike work hard at it.  I really noticed the improvement this past Sunday when I was riding two-up with my wife.  I've got a bit over 2000 miles since the first remap on 10 June and things just keep getting better.
 
Hey, Bob ...

Hopefully, you can have the bike dyno'd so we can see where it sits on power and torque vs stock ... and maybe the old tune as well.

Any chance of that happening?
 
We posted the dyno charts for the first tune already. I suspect if someone takes another bike into Don for the reflash, he will put it on the dyno and check it. I think Bob's bike has already been on the dyno 2 or 3 times.
 
Fred_Harmon_TX said:
We posted the dyno charts for the first tune already. I suspect if someone takes another bike into Don for the reflash, he will put it on the dyno and check it. I think Bob's bike has already been on the dyno 2 or 3 times.
Click to expand...

Fred is correct that the charts have been posted.  The chart that is currently published in the latest copy of The Concourier is the map that Don reinstalled yesterday.  I took that data and plotted a percent improvement over the stock map at each of the major RPM points.  I believe that has also been posted, but I'll throw it in here.....
 

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@Bob: Which mapping would you suggest for a fairly conservative rider? I like the idea of bumping up the torque at the bottom end for two up riding.

@Millsan1: Did you hear back from Guhl about a Sat. reflash?
 
Wayne_Sikorski_NJ said:
@Bob: Which mapping would you suggest for a fairly conservative rider? I like the idea of bumping up the torque at the bottom end for two up riding.

@Millsan1: Did you hear back from Guhl about a Sat. reflash?
Click to expand...

Wayne-

I would go with the map I have.  I think you will absolutely love the improvement.  I offered this up previously, and the offer still stands- if you want to try it out on my bike, we can make that happen.  Same for you Millsan1.  Both of you guys are pretty local to me. 
 
Bob said:
Wayne_Sikorski_NJ said:
@Bob: Which mapping would you suggest for a fairly conservative rider? I like the idea of bumping up the torque at the bottom end for two up riding.

@Millsan1: Did you hear back from Guhl about a Sat. reflash?
Click to expand...

Wayne-

I would go with the map I have.  I think you will absolutely love the improvement.  I offered this up previously, and the offer still stands- if you want to try it out on my bike, we can make that happen.  Same for you Millsan1.  Both of you guys are pretty local to me.
Click to expand...

And now that I think about it...we can swap my ECU into your bike and you can take your own bike for a spin. 
 
Bob said:
And now that I think about it...we can swap my ECU into your bike and you can take your own bike for a spin.
Click to expand...

No you can't swap ECU's. The KIPASS registration keys are programmed in to the Engine ECU, and the Engine ECU, KIPASS Receiver ECU, and steering lock mechanisms are all married to each other.

The only way you could do it is if you had a KDS3 tool to reprogam it to work on a different bike.
 
Ok, guys. Let's say you've now convinced me that I want my '11 ECU reflashed to the most recent version of your mapping. What's it going to set me back and how long does it take?
 
wally_games said:
Ok, guys. Let's say you've now convinced me that I want my '11 ECU reflashed to the most recent version of your mapping. What's it going to set me back and how long does it take?
Click to expand...

Guhl Motors is charging $375, and they can do it in a day. So how long it takes really just depends on what shipping you are willing to pay for. I sent mine in on a Monday and had it back on Friday, and I paid for 2 day Air UPS.
 
Bob said:
Wayne-

I would go with the map I have.  I think you will absolutely love the improvement.  I offered this up previously, and the offer still stands- if you want to try it out on my bike, we can make that happen.  Same for you Millsan1.  Both of you guys are pretty local to me.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the offer. I guess that we're still waitin' on a reply from Guhl.
 
I think I'd also go with the latest adjustment he made too, but I'd want to get him to put it on the dyno and check the A/F readings on it just to be safe.
 
I have not yet heard back from Don, but I am not riding this weekend.  100+ degrees is too much for a pleasure ride.  Going on the boat instead.
 
+1 on the heat. We have the Governor and a pile of politicos visiting where I work tomorrow for our official corporate grand opening. I get paid to hang around and drink champagne all afternoon. The heat should make it real interesting in the shop. 400,000 SQFT of roof area.  :eek:
 
I think you guys are in for a treat once you get this done. The improvement is pretty impressive.
 
Necron99 said:
Does this re-flash change the speed limit from 155 or whatever up to 186 or so as well?
Click to expand...

Yes, if you ask him to, he will change that when he reflashes it and he can set it to whatever you want it to. 300 km/hr is what the 08 is set to, and that's probably faster than the bike can go anyway.
 
Wayne_Sikorski_NJ said:
Bob said:
Wayne-

I would go with the map I have.  I think you will absolutely love the improvement.  I offered this up previously, and the offer still stands- if you want to try it out on my bike, we can make that happen.  Same for you Millsan1.  Both of you guys are pretty local to me.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the offer. I guess that we're still waitin' on a reply from Guhl.
Click to expand...
Wayne! Did you re-flash your ECU at Guhl Motors yet.....?
 
Wayne_Sikorski_NJ said:
Killer said:
[Wayne! Did you re-flash your ECU at Guhl Motors yet.....?
Click to expand...

I think that were still waiting for a reply from Guhl...
Click to expand...

Don has been on vacation this past week, but should be in tomorrow. I'd suggest you try to contact him again.
 
So if I'm reading this correctly there are now two tune options with the main difference being how far the reflash opens the secondary flies.  The first (what Fred currently has) having a more moderate (say 50-60%) opening of the flies, and the second with a more radical (say 90-100%) opening of the flies similar to removing them. 

Also, for those who have put a few thousand or more miles on the reflash at this point, how does it affect fuel mileage?  Slightly better?  Slightly worse?  Same? 
 
MrFurious said:
So if I'm reading this correctly there are now two tune options with the main difference being how far the reflash opens the secondary flies.  The first (what Fred currently has) having a more moderate (say 50-60%) opening of the flies, and the second with a more radical (say 90-100%) opening of the flies similar to removing them. 

Also, for those who have put a few thousand or more miles on the reflash at this point, how does it affect fuel mileage?  Slightly better?  Slightly worse?  Same?
Click to expand...

Don reflashed my ECU yesterday with the newest map with the more aggressive butterfly opening rates in them as well as the new fuel map changes based on my autotune. I hope to test it out in a couple days and compare it to the previous map I had. I'll try to make some dyno charts from my GTech unit and post them.

My suspicion is that most everyone is going to prefer the latest map with the more aggressive butterfly opening rates, as I suspect it provides the most improvement in low end torque.

Gas mileage is reported to be just slightly better with both reflashes, though I don't know yet by how much. Based on the fueling changes, I would only expect it to be about 2mpg at best.
 
TC said:
Fred, What is the basic function of the butterflys?
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According to what the Kawasaki Execs told me, they were originally installed on the 2008 model to reduce intake noise and help them pass the EPA noise and pollution restrictions. I also believe they used them to try to smooth out (slow) throttle response on the low end and make the bike more rider friendly for newer riders by reducing torque and throttle response in the lower gears and at the lower RPM's, though I've never heard Kawasaki to openly admit it. I have also verified that intake noise does indeed increase when you remove them, so maybe Kawasaki was telling the truth (or at least part of the truth) when they said they were used to decrease intake noise.

In 2010/11 they also use them as a control element for the traction control system. When the traction control system senses wheel spin, it cuts spark, fuel, and closes the secondary throttle plates.

I have also done quite a bit of testing on the traction control system after having the butterfly map altered in my ECU, and it still functions exactly the same as before. The ECU ignores the map when the traction control is active and closes the butterflies until wheel spin stops. I have taken the bike onto gravel and sand and intentionally tried to spin the rear wheel after having the butterfly map adjusted in my ECU, and it functions perfectly in every way, and I am not able to get the rear wheel to spin in the slightest. This is one of the big reasons I wanted to alter the map for them in the ECU and not simply remove them, as it allows the traction control to function normally.
 
I got my ECU back with the latest revisions to the butterfly and fuel maps and took the bike for a ride last night. I can notice more of a change now when I switch between the Economy and normal modes, and it does feel like it is improved over the previous map with even more low end torque. I haven't yet put the GTech on it to measure the difference, but I did turn on the autotune to see what kind of trim files for the fuel it would make, and it really didn't make any significant trim adjustments, so I think the fuel map is good.
 
Fred_Harmon_TX said:
MrFurious said:
So if I'm reading this correctly there are now two tune options with the main difference being how far the reflash opens the secondary flies.  The first (what Fred currently has) having a more moderate (say 50-60%) opening of the flies, and the second with a more radical (say 90-100%) opening of the flies similar to removing them. 

Also, for those who have put a few thousand or more miles on the reflash at this point, how does it affect fuel mileage?  Slightly better?  Slightly worse?  Same?
Click to expand...


Don reflashed my ECU yesterday with the newest map with the more aggressive butterfly opening rates in them as well as the new fuel map changes based on my autotune. I hope to test it out in a couple days and compare it to the previous map I had. I'll try to make some dyno charts from my GTech unit and post them.

My suspicion is that most everyone is going to prefer the latest map with the more aggressive butterfly opening rates, as I suspect it provides the most improvement in low end torque.

Gas mileage is reported to be just slightly better with both reflashes, though I don't know yet by how much. Based on the fueling changes, I would only expect it to be about 2mpg at best.
Click to expand...
Fred! Will this newest map be available for 08s/09s ???
 
Killer said:
Fred! Will this newest map be available for 08s/09s ???
Click to expand...

Yes, it is available now and is what Don has been flashing into all C14 ECU's. I had an older version of his first reflash that had a less aggressive butterfly opening rate that he used as the first test version. We intentionally took baby steps in making adjustment to the butterfly map. The one he uses now pretty much makes the bike ride like it would if the butterflies were totally removed, except it has a smoother throttle response at low RPMs in the lower gears, and is not as abrupt at slow speeds like removing the butterflies sometimes results in.

All in all, I think this is a very solid map, and I'm real happy with it.
 
Any progress on the plans of sending the software and interface cable to prospective buyers rather than sending the ECU to have reflashed?
 
LancasterC14 said:
Any progress on the plans of sending the software and interface cable to prospective buyers rather than sending the ECU to have reflashed?
Click to expand...

I've not heard any new progress reports on that portion of it. But I'll warn you up front, it probably isn't going to be cheap to go that route. I'd guess it's going to cost at least twice what it would to send the ECU in to be reflashed, or possibly more. I paid about $800 for an EFI Live tool to program the ECU in my car. So just be prepared in advance to pony up if you want the programmer tool, and I suspect it will only come with a license to do one ECU.
 
Here is a link to a video I shot using my PCV LCD display to show the secondary throttle butterfly positions, and doing some throttle roll ons at 3,500 rpm in 4th gear after the Guhl reflash.

I first do two with it in the normal more, and then I do two more in Economy mode, so you can see the difference in the butterfly opening rates between the two modes now. Before the reflash, the rates were almost identical in both modes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3HpmrXR3PY
 
Fred_Harmon_TX said:
Here is a link to a video I shot using my PCV LCD display to show the secondary throttle butterfly positions, and doing some throttle roll ons at 3,500 rpm in 4th gear after the Guhl reflash.

I first do two with it in the normal more, and then I do two more in Economy mode, so you can see the difference in the butterfly opening rates between the two modes now. Before the reflash, the rates were almost identical in both modes.
Click to expand...

How much difference is there between the modes when 5th or 6th gear is used?
 
mcrider007 said:
Fred_Harmon_TX said:
Here is a link to a video I shot using my PCV LCD display to show the secondary throttle butterfly positions, and doing some throttle roll ons at 3,500 rpm in 4th gear after the Guhl reflash.

I first do two with it in the normal more, and then I do two more in Economy mode, so you can see the difference in the butterfly opening rates between the two modes now. Before the reflash, the rates were almost identical in both modes.
Click to expand...

How much difference is there between the modes when 5th or 6th gear is used?
Click to expand...

I've got a 5th gear video I can post if you want to see it, but according to Don Guhl, the butterfly maps are the same for all gears. The 5th gear roll on looks pretty much the same as the 4th gear video.
 
I just uploaded a 5th gear roll on. Same as before, two roll ons in normal with Guhl reflash and two in ECO mode.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIpxiA2XH0M
 
Fred_Harmon_TX said:
I've got a 5th gear video I can post if you want to see it, but according to Don Guhl, the butterfly maps are the same for all gears. The 5th gear roll on looks pretty much the same as the 4th gear video.
Click to expand...

If the butterfly maps are the same for all gears, I wonder what explains the performance increase when a GiPro is used because there definitely is a difference in performance between the GiPro being turned off vs being set to use the 6th gear maps....and there is that 2007 video of C14 dyno runs showing the differences in torque between 4th vs 5th gear in the lower rpm ranges.
 
mcrider007 said:
If the butterfly maps are the same for all gears, I wonder what explains the performance increase when a GiPro is used because there definitely is a difference in performance between the GiPro being turned off vs being set to the use the 6th gear maps....and there is that 2007 video of C14 dyno runs showing the differences in torque between 4th vs 5th gear in the lower rpm ranges.
Click to expand...

Yea, I've wondered the same thing, and I don't have an explanation unless Don missed something in the maps when he was looking at them. Its possible they had some small variations that he overlooked. The only other possible explanation would be differences in the timing tables for the different gears.
 
Regarding the GIPro, I had one installed on a Rocket3, the explanation given to me for the increase in performance was that the timing retardation was eliminated by the GIPRO fooling the ECU into thinking that it was in sixth gear (or fifth for the Rocket) where there was no timing retardation; there was a definate boost when I had it installed set correctly on the Rocket.

Peter
 
I stand corrected. I just got a look at the OEM butterfly maps and they are bit different for the different gears. Not a huge amount, but they are different. There are 3 maps, and a nuetral map. Gears 1&2 share a map, 3&4 share a map, and 5&6 share a map.

As an example, at 5K RPM and 1.02 volts out of the primary throttle position sensor, the gear 1 map has the butterflies open to 33%.  The same cell in the gear 6 map has them open to 38%. So the changes aren't huge, but the 6 gear map for the butterflies does have them open more.

See this thread for more info:
http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php/topic,28657.0.html
 
I'm really curious to see if the KDS software can detect that the ECU has been tampered with.      Also,  what happens if there is a problem while Guhl is reflashing? (IE they lose power during the flash etc) and your ECU is ruined,  who pays?
 
Mad River Marc said:
I'm really curious to see if the KDS software can detect that the ECU has been tampered with.      Also,  what happens if there is a problem while Guhl is reflashing? (IE they lose power during the flash etc) and your ECU is ruined,  who pays?
Click to expand...

I don't believe the KDS software does anything more than read out diagnostic codes from the ECU and programs in new registry info for new FOBs or the KIPASS ECU or steering lock mechanisms. I have the compete KDS manual, and I don't see anything in it that indicates it does any validity checking.

However, this is just like any other mod. If you remove your butterflies and a dealer later finds they are gone and you are trying to claim warranty work for something that is related to them, then yes they may deny your warranty. However, if you have a windsheild motor fail or tire sensor battery go dead, I seriously doubt they are going to deny your warranty claim just cause you had your ECU reflashed. Some common sense is normally used by dealerships when aftermarket modifications are done to a bike with regards to warranty. So I don't think it's like your whole warranty is out the window just cause your ECU has been reflashed.

As for the question of power loss during an ECU reflash, I don't believe that has ever happened, and Don has been in business doing this for quite a while. I haven't asked him, but I suspect he has a UPS system on his equipment anyway. You could ask him if you're worried about it, but I think you're worrying about scenarios that are likely to never happen.

The real question you should be asking is who pays for the speeding ticket you get when you get your ECU back and you find yourself riding 20mph over the posted speed limit every time you get on the bike.
 
By law I don't think they CAN deny you a warranty claim due to a modification unless the modification CAUSED the issue (Magnusen Moss Warranty law IIRC)  however, every dealer I've heard of around here will look for ANY excuse to deny warranty (they don't get paid a lot for warranty work)

However, given that the ECU is the brain of the ship so to speak, if you suddenly had other issues TPS issues  for example (other then an actual dead battery in the sensor etc) and they found out, they prob could use that as a valid reason to deny service (They could say they were unable to program a key or TPS due to a modified ECU not talking to the Kipass ecu correctly)

I'm interested in this mod, but need to be aware of all the pros and cons.

What happens if you send them the ECU and they brick it during reflashing?  are you out the cost of the ECU or do they replace it?
 
Mad River Marc said:
What happens if you send them the ECU and they brick it during reflashing?  are you out the cost of the ECU or do they replace it?
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Don Guhl is a stand up guy. I'd have to believe he would not leave you high and dry if he bricked your ECU. Furthermore, just from the sheer number of ECU's he has reflashed, I think the chances of that happening are so low that it's not worth worrying over. But if you're worried about this, give him a call or send him an email and ask him.
 
Gonna see how the $ situation falls out in the next few mos, and maybe over the winter send him the ECU..

I wonder what else they can dink with that is electronically controlled... (IE program OUT that stupid linked braking system)
 
I understand the need to keep riding, but the team at Guhl can turn it around pretty quick. I had mine back within a week including shipping. Looking forward to flying home and riding the next few weeks.
 
Thanks for this thread and I appreciate the info.

Does the reflash offer an improved powerband vs removing the files entirely?  I suppose logic says it does since the guys reflashing could make the files be open 100% at all speeds.
 
rcannon409 said:
Thanks for this thread and I appreciate the info.

Does the reflash offer an improved powerband vs removing the files entirely?  I suppose logic says it does since the guys reflashing could make the files be open 100% at all speeds.
Click to expand...

Its a little tough to say for sure how it compares to when the flies are actually removed and the fuel remapped with a Power Commander. My "seat of the pants" feel tells me it's real close. I think removing the secondary butterflies provides a bit more instantaneous throttle response, but it can also make the bike a bit more difficult to control at low speeds in the lower gears, as the throttle feels a bit more twitchy. The reflash doesn't have the twitchy behavior that removing the butterflies causes, and also addresses the fuel remapping, so you don't need a Power Commander. I'd really have to see back to back dyno comparisons to say for sure, but my "gut feeling" is that removing the butterflies does give a very slight better response since they are gone altogether and there is zero lag time when you twist the throttle till they open up, but the down side to that is it makes the throttle control in the lower gears at low speed a bit more touchy.

My personal feeling is that reflashing gives you the best of both worlds, and allows good low speed handing and throttle control, while giving you back the torque you loose in the mid range band, and also allowing the traction control to work like it should. And since you don't need a Power Commander, you have improved reliability and your MPG readouts are still accurate.
 
Fred,

I've been riding around Martha's Vineyard the last couple of days and the flash has been great. Fully loaded up with gear and the wife the additional torque low down has made the bike feel as it should.

But idling along at 30-35 miles an hour in 3rd/4th gear along the coast I've found that the bike runs better in ECO mode. Why, well it seems in Standard (Guhl) Mode the bike wants to go, its edgy like a racing horse. The engine pusles a little as if it needs more gas and wants to run. Switch it to ECO mode and the revs jump 200-300 and then everything settles down and runs smooth.

Have you experienced anything like this? I've not complaining, its actually a nice feeling and exactly why I wanted 2 maps via the flash.
 
Stewart said:
Fred,

I've been riding around Martha's Vineyard the last couple of days and the flash has been great. Fully loaded up with gear and the wife the additional torque low down has made the bike feel as it should.

But idling along at 30-35 miles an hour in 3rd/4th gear along the coast I've found that the bike runs better in ECO mode. Why, well it seems in Standard (Guhl) Mode the bike wants to go, its edgy like a racing horse. The engine pusles a little as if it needs more gas and wants to run. Switch it to ECO mode and the revs jump 200-300 and then everything settles down and runs smooth.

Have you experienced anything like this? I've not complaining, its actually a nice feeling and exactly why I wanted 2 maps via the flash.
Click to expand...

Stuart, I'll have to investigate that when I get my bike back together. It may just be that when the butterflies are closed it subdues the throttle response enough that you don't feel it.
 
I don't think its throttle response as I held it still while I monitored it. I really think its a combination of rev's and fuel and a tipping point of some sort, maybe some natural frequency/resonates. The bike rides perfectly fine and is still smooth, it just wants to break free.

I'll test it out again when we head out to lunch.
 
Stewart said:
I don't think its throttle response as I held it still while I monitored it. I really think its a combination of rev's and fuel and a tipping point of some sort, maybe some natural frequency/resonates. The bike rides perfectly fine and is still smooth, it just wants to break free.

I'll test it out again when we head out to lunch.
Click to expand...

It might be a lean spot in the fuel map causing lean surging. We might need to make a small adjustment to it at that RPM to richen it up just a tad. Can you tell me exactly what RPM it is happening at?
 
I think I will send mine in. I'm slightly concerned about a warranty issue, but not concerned enough to live with the stock map for two more years.

I want the extra low end torque.  I am at at an altitude of 4500-7000 ft and the bikes lose a significant amount of power at altitude. 

Plus, the low end response. If the bike had carbs, I would have bought jets by now. I suppose this really is not that much different.
 
Fred_Harmon_TX said:
Stewart said:
I don't think its throttle response as I held it still while I monitored it. I really think its a combination of rev's and fuel and a tipping point of some sort, maybe some natural frequency/resonates. The bike rides perfectly fine and is still smooth, it just wants to break free.

I'll test it out again when we head out to lunch.
Click to expand...

It might be a lean spot in the fuel map causing lean surging. We might need to make a small adjustment to it at that RPM to richen it up just a tad. Can you tell me exactly what RPM it is happening at?
Click to expand...
Fred-Stewart

Post the RPM range and I will confirm if it is happening on my bike too.  I don't think it is. 
 
Fred-Stewart

Post the RPM range and I will confirm if it is happening on my bike too.  I don't think it is.
Click to expand...

I rode the bike a little more 2-up / 1-up and could reproduce what I thought I noticed. I'll continue to monitor it.

Otherwise the bike was rock solid all weekend and the extra grunt low down was great.
 
Stewart said:
Fred-Stewart

Post the RPM range and I will confirm if it is happening on my bike too.  I don't think it is.
Click to expand...

I rode the bike a little more 2-up / 1-up and could reproduce what I thought I noticed. I'll continue to monitor it.

Otherwise the bike was rock solid all weekend and the extra grunt low down was great.
Click to expand...

If you'll tell me the RPM and general throttle position where it is occurring, I'll look at the fuel map in that location and see what it is currently set to.
 
If you'll tell me the RPM and general throttle position where it is occurring, I'll look at the fuel map in that location and see what it is currently set to
Click to expand...

Sorry typo...meant to say I couldn't really reproduce what I noticed. In general it happened at around 30-35 mph, in 3rd/4th gear, just idling along. I guess the revs would have been somewhere between 2500-3500 RPM. Throttle position would be next to off or just on enough to keep the bike rolling along.

The bike ran fine, but at a certain rev it seemed that it wanted more throttle and to pick up the revs. I've noticed this in several cars where sitting around 3000 RPM the car doesn't seem to run smooth, but bump it to 3200 or so and everything smooths out.

Since I couldn't really reproduce, lets forget it unless someone else or I notice it again.
 
Fred_Harmon_TX said:
LancasterC14 said:
Any progress on the plans of sending the software and interface cable to prospective buyers rather than sending the ECU to have reflashed?
Click to expand...

I've not heard any new progress reports on that portion of it. But I'll warn you up front, it probably isn't going to be cheap to go that route. I'd guess it's going to cost at least twice what it would to send the ECU in to be reflashed, or possibly more. I paid about $800 for an EFI Live tool to program the ECU in my car. So just be prepared in advance to pony up if you want the programmer tool, and I suspect it will only come with a license to do one ECU.
Click to expand...

If anyone wants to do this, ECUnleashed (they google up) has this stuff, and its not all that expensive. They sell ECU images too. Folks on ZX14 forum have purchased from them and like the result.
 
Fred or anyone..... who do I call and what phone number to arrange to send my ECU to Guhl, and besides do I want the speed limit removed, what else do I need to know to ask about?

Won't be all that long til I need to do this.
 
Privateer said:
Fred or anyone..... who do I call and what phone number to arrange to send my ECU to Guhl, and besides do I want the speed limit removed, what else do I need to know to ask about?

Won't be all that long til I need to do this.
Click to expand...

717-618-4212

http://www.guhlmotors.com/

Guhl Motors:
4126 Oregon Pike
Rear Building
Ephrata, PA 17522


Don will set the speed limiter to whatever you want it to be. I believe the two basic tunes he is doing now are the standard Guhl Tune that opens the butterflies more and makes some fuel adjustments, and the tune with the fuel map set up for a CS1 pipe based on the Autotune files I sent him.

I believe he can individualize your tune just about any way you want it (within reason). So far, he has been leaving the timing tables stock, (which I believe is a good thing) and is only changing the secondary butterfly tables and fuel tables. If you have an aftermarket pipe or other modifications that requires custom modifications to the fuel tables, and you have data output from an autotuner or dyno run, he should be able to make custom adjustments to your fuel tables based on your configuration needs. He also has an in-house dyno and can make a custom map for you on the spot if you take your bike to him.

If you're running the stock exhaust, I'd suggest just having him install the same tune that the rest of us are using, as it has been refined through several iterations now, and seems to be real solid. So the only real decision you have to make is what you want your speed limiter set to (1193 kph ?)
 
Thanks, Fred !

Guhl is about 2 hours from me, so an easy ride. I guess I'll just make an appointment when the weather warms up to ride it to them, and let them do it.

Or I might wait until I can get a Muzzy dual exhaust for it, and then take it, and have him dyno it and flash to those results.

We'll see, but at least its close enough it will be easy to do on a weekend or something.
 
By the way, Fred, I will eventually hang a PC5 and Autotune, with an Ignition module, on it.

The Muzzy doesn't have a bung, but I'll have one welded on.  I'm putting it back past the collector at least a foot because up in front of the collector, the shock waves in the gas flow are strong enough to cause the slow O2 sensors we can afford and use to become inaccurate enough that only signal averaging is possible. With stock collectors, with the cats in them, you have no choice but to sample in front of them, but in the absence of cats, the further you can get from the exhaust ports, the better.

Wish we could get faster, and cooler, sensors, but I can't afford $1,000 for an O2 sensor.

Back when Dublin Kawasaki built the ZX11 that set some decent land speed timings at Bonneville for a gasoline powered, street legal (and wearing plates with a valid registration) bike, it was closed-loop for real, with 2 x O2 sensors, one in each back pipe halfway from the collector to the mufflers. I don't remember if they held the record for a short while, or not. That was rocket science, back in 1991-1992. Heh.
 
Ok this is probably dumb but how hard is the Ecu unit to take out? ( I say this after a weekend of eating, shooting and a few drinks ) but after reading all this I really want a re flash thanks for the help guys.

Dave
 
5 minutes or less to take out. Remove the seat, the tray that holds the tool kit, and the ecumis underneath with a couple of quick-connects on it.

I pulled it off at 3pm and was riding two days later with major torque!
 
I think I'm going to take the plunge and get this done during the winter. I'm about to email Don @ Guhl, but I'm a little confused with some of the earlier posts as it seems there are a couple of maps he does so I thought I'd ask some questions to those that have done this.

Running a 2010 ABS/KTRK

Is there a couple choices he offers or is there a "standard?" I'm running OEM exhaust if that makes a difference.

Also, if I hate it, is it possible to go back to OEM?

Anything else I should know before I send it in?
 
Just tell him you have a stock bike, stock exhaust and that you want the updated agressive map. It includes fuel table updates from Fred H and the flies open sooner.

I have it and love it.
 
I'm not sure what is better? The other guy is going to
do it now for $300.00 . But Don and Fred have really
Researched the guhl reflash. As soon as I get my shims
and cams back in I want to do this. Seems like I could
Sync the TB and put in the reflashed ECU? Don told me
yesterday $375.00. I like the idea of tried and proven.
Should I wait to sync? My bike is an 08. Any encouragement
would be appreciated.

Keep the shiney side up
chuck
 
Is the ECU the only  "module" looking thing that has 2 quick disconnects? If so, mine has Mitsubishi on it. I just wanted to send Guhl the right thing. I have 2011. Any help would be appreciated.   
 
Stokeman said:
Is the ECU the only  "module" looking thing that has 2 quick disconnects? If so, mine has Mitsubishi on it. I just wanted to send Guhl the right thing. I have 2011. Any help would be appreciated. 
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There are two black boxes at the rear of the bike stacked on top of each other.  The ECU is the one on the bottom, and has two large connectors going to it. The module on the top with three connectors is simply a relay box.

large.jpg


large.jpg


 
Thank You Fred! The reflash is going to be a Christmas present from my wife. She says she dosen't know what it is for and I told her I would show her  :-\  Can't wait.
 
I had my 2012 done and a two brothers exhaust but with the bags on it still does not want much more top end, I see 165 in fifth but does not want to pull more in sixth, is that normal for these bikes??  Can I change the gearing on it? If so who sells a different gear for it.
 
Sixth is basically an overdrive and yes, your results are normal.
I don't know if you can change the gearing or where (if available) you'd be able to get the parts.
 
pilotlooking said:
I had my 2012 done and a two brothers exhaust but with the bags on it still does not want much more top end, I see 165 in fifth but does not want to pull more in sixth, is that normal for these bikes??  Can I change the gearing on it? If so who sells a different gear for it.
Click to expand...
All mine will do is around 155mph, in 5th, 6th just sort of keeps it there... all stock of course.
 
I asked that they remove it for the reflash for my 2010, and they said this could be done.  Haven't tested it though.  Purely psychological for me.  Got tired of reading posts from 2008 and 2009 owners who brag about being the only folks with no limiter! Neptune Blue can now be as fast as Black, Silver and Red (even though Red looks best IMHO).

 
Apologies for the basic question but I was wondering how the bike rides after the reflash? Seems it accelerates faster for sure.......do the shifting patterns change? Shift through the gears faster?......do you shift less often?......I am considering the reflash but would like to determine how differently the bike will ride...I enjoy the combination of shifting/speed/turns/balance.........not sure if this will change if it becomes like a drag racer where the power just comes burning in immediately........does it change/alter the slow speed enjoyments of riding?......thanks to any who can shed light on this......Chris
 
I ask these questions also:
(seem like no one answers though)

I ride a lot in traffic and congested city flow. I shift at 25-30k quite often. I hear and see increases in torque occur at 35k.

I don't know what Concour you have but under 4k I am already hitting 70mhp.

Does this reflash makes low-end rpm smoother? I am interested in my bike running more efficiently, longevity and making the bike run better....I am not interested in doing 155 mph in 5th gear.

Has any non-hot-rod driver made good use of this reflash mod?
 
nando said:
I ask these questions also:
(seem like no one answers though)

I ride a lot in traffic and congested city flow. I shift at 25-30k quite often. I hear and see increases in torque occur at 35k.

I don't know what Concour you have but under 4k I am already hitting 70mhp.

Does this reflash makes low-end rpm smoother? I am interested in my bike running more efficiently, longevity and making the bike run better....I am not interested in doing 155 mph in 5th gear.

Has any non-hot-rod driver made good use of this reflash mod?
Click to expand...

I did a full area P on my 2012 and went with the Guhl relash for a full system While this woke the bike up at the top end and some in the mid I felt like it was lacking at the small throttle openings. I added a pc5 and paid for some dyno time. We were able to work it up at theWOT and we really worked on the small throttle opening response. I can see a marked improvement staring at 2.5k the bike is really waking up by 3.5k and by 6k it is fully awake and charging hard 10k comes on quickly. One of these days I will down load the map and send it over to Guhl.

Base run with Guhl flash
154.27 hp
95.95 tq

After dyno mapping on dyno jet dyno
159.55 hp
101.8 tq
 
h2oplayer, hopefully you will have a chance to get them that map.  I have been debating a reflash and it would be great to have those better numbers.
 
I've found that I don't need to downshift as much in the twisites or with my wife and the bike still pulls in the midrange.

But a downshift will always put a smile on the face....

 
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