• Can't post after logging to the forum for the first time... Try Again - If you can't post in the forum, sign out of both the membership site and the forum and log in again. Make sure your COG membership is active and your browser allow cookies. If you still can't post, contact the COG IT guy at IT@Concours.org.
  • IF YOU GET 404 ERROR: This may be due to using a link in a post from prior to the web migration. Content was brought over from the old forum as is, but the links may be in error. If the link contains "cog-online.org" it is an old link and will not work.

How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?

Willy,
Air will compress, the pressure will keep increasing but it will keep compressing. Likewise, air will leak past rings,(they do not provide a perfect seal), and valve seats much faster than a liquid. Therefore, it will take more actual liquid (fuel or antifreeze in the case of a head gasket failure), than combustion chamber volume to cause a hydrolock event.
Matt
 
Sorry, wrong, air is not infinitely compressible*. At some point in compression, air becomes a liquid. No motor can handle that without damage.

However, at some point the air will become so compressed that the piston will stop. I don't know how much air this is, in relation to cylinder size or the amount of fuel, but I don't believe the fuel needs to be 100% or the combustion chamber. And also, we are assuming the piston is at BDC, if the piston were not at BDC there would be less air and therefore need more fuel.

Also keep in mind it doesn't need to be an absolute impossible blockage of movement, it only needs to be enough resistance to movement to exceed the rod's resistance to bending. In other words, there could be a situation were the strength of the rod were a factor. A stronger rod would be less likely to bend and possibly force the piston through what would be a hydrolock and bent rod with a weaker rod.

So to make a long story short, the liquid only needs to raise the compression ratio up the the point were the rod bends. If the liquid equals the combustion chamber, we have infinity to 1 compression ratio. I am sure you can see that it takes less than that to damage a motor. What that ratio is, I don't know.




*at least not by any method known to man. Any matter is compressible, even solids. But, we cannot further compress many materials, like a diamond for instance. It's not that a diamond can't be compressed, it just that we don't have the ability. Maybe someday we'll create portable black holes.

Our motors are damaged when trying to compress liquids, not because liquids can't be compressed, but because the motor isn't strong enough to do so.
 
mattchewn said:
McFly,
What is the compression ratio of a ZG 1000? 10 to 1? If so it would only take slightly more than 1/10th of the compressed volume of one cylinder to have a hydrolock. The cylinder only has to have more fuel than room. Depending on piston location in the stroke that could be minimal.
Matt
Click to expand...

There's a lot more to it... most importantly the strength of the connecting rod, and the maximum pressure
it can exert before failing...  the compression is also an air/fuel mixture, which is more dense than just air.
Fuel is part of the compression volume.  My answer was to the volume of the cylinder at TDC, and a simple guess
as to what's actually needed.  The more I think it through the more it hurts my head...  (Metal fatigue, ring wear,
so many variables).

WillyP said:
the liquid only needs to raise the compression ratio up the the point were the rod bends. If the liquid equals the combustion chamber, we have infinity to 1 compression ratio. I am sure you can see that it takes less than that to damage a motor. What that ratio is, I don't know.

Our motors are damaged when trying to compress liquids, not because liquids can't be compressed, but because the motor isn't strong enough to do so.
Click to expand...

:iagree: 

 
I'm not getting into the fray on whether or not a compressible gas can cause a rod to bend , but I can say that then entire volume of fuel needed is less than one ounce to fully overfill the combustion chamber volume and prevent the piston from reaching TDC. HTH,  IIRC, the combustion chamber volume is 17cc, then add in the head gasket volume, maybe 2.5 cc or so. Steve
 
I solved this issue years ago by installing a Pingel fuel valve. Then two years ago I got Steve's overflow tubes installed just as extra insurance.
 
Well if it's any consolation, I agree with you Rev Ryder.

I've always thought overflow tubes were a tad bit risky and is probably the reason they're not installed by the manufacturer.  Nothing like pouring gasonline on hot exhaust to ruin your life.  :beerchug:
 
BlueTroll said:
Well if it's any consolation, I agree with you Rev Ryder.

I've always thought overflow tubes were a tad bit risky and is probably the reason they're not installed by the manufacturer.  Nothing like pouring gasonline on hot exhaust to ruin your life.  :beerchug:
Click to expand...
Ummm, they do come with a drain tube so that any overflow can be directed.

This is opposed to no overflows where the gas usually, sometimes, or frequently comes out of the airbox. Not much direction of flow there.
 
BlueTroll said:
Well if it's any consolation, I agree with you Rev Ryder.

I've always thought overflow tubes were a tad bit risky and is probably the reason they're not installed by the manufacturer.  Nothing like pouring gasonline on hot exhaust to ruin your life.  :beerchug:
Click to expand...

  the kawasaki voyager was made the same years as the c-10. The voyagers all had drain tubes and a drain line. If it was oo "risky" none of the models would have had them. JMO, Steve
 
Personally, I would much rather have control over where bowl overflow gas goes, rather
than let it go where it wants, because we KNOW where it goes, hence this discussion.

Fact is, most people I know in this group are fairly pro-active, and stay on top of maintenance
issues, so I'm thinkin' a very small percentage will actually see them do there job, which is a
good thing.  Anyone using the overflow tubes as an overflow indicator is totally missing the point, eh?

It's like using your car's air bag system as a brake failure warning system....  ???


 
Just curious....how many here have had SISF's overflow tubes installed and at some point come out to the garage to discover a pool of gas beneath the bike....

 
Just seems that installing a 5/16" ID fuel shut off just downstream of the factory unit is good cheap insurance and in no way at all effects the flow to the carbs.  :great:
 
Big E said:
Just seems that installing a 5/16" ID fuel shut off just downstream of the factory unit is good cheap insurance and in no way at all effects the flow to the carbs.  :great:
Click to expand...

IF you remember to shut it off EVERY TIME.  It's the same as installing a Pingel (on/off petcock).
 
LessPaul said:
Just curious....how many here have had SISF's overflow tubes installed and at some point come out to the garage to discover a pool of gas beneath the bike....
Click to expand...

I have Steve's overflow tubes and I have never had as much as one drop of fuel on the shop floor.
Of course that is mainly due to my Pingel fuel valve being in the "OFF" position when the bike is not running.
 
Jim Snyder said:
LessPaul said:
Just curious....how many here have had SISF's overflow tubes installed and at some point come out to the garage to discover a pool of gas beneath the bike....
Click to expand...

I have Steve's overflow tubes and I have never had as much as one drop of fuel on the shop floor.
Of course that is mainly due to my Pingel fuel valve being in the "OFF" position when the bike is not running.
Click to expand...

    OK, I'm in. I use the OEM fuel valve!! On my second one on my C10 that I have owned for 20 yrs. I retired the first one after 14 yrs.. Never had a drop of fuel from my bike on the garage floor. So there!!  ;)
 
No leakage, on my third petcock in 214k miles, carbbies serviced from time to time by Shoodaben Engineering.
 
When I asked about post-SISF carb work gas leaks, I was kinda playing devil's advocate.

Those with SISF's overflow tubes know that hydrolock can't happen to them.  But the petcock can still fail.  And the carbs can still get gummed up. The difference of course is that if those two conditions occur at the same time (with tubes), the gas ends up on the garage floor, not filling the cylinders or airbox.

Overflow tubes don't prevent a petcock from going bad, or carbs from getting gummed up anew.

Sooo....if you have SISF's overflow tubes, you have precisely the same likelihood of generating the factors needed for hydrolock as those without. You're protected, of course, from the effects. But the likelihood is no different than for those without.

If nobody ever gets gas on their garage floor (with the overflow tubes), the same percentage would never have experienced it without the tubes.

Perhaps the risk of hydrolock isn't quite as high as many might think?  I can't really answer that. I know the stakes are high, which makes overflow tubes worth the price of admission. But hydrolock is presented as the big, bad boogeyman of Concours ownership here. We're a bit fixated on it.

BUT.....
I can't believe I wouldn't notice a strong gas smell in my garage (or in a parking lot). I can't believe I wouldn't notice a gas leak under my bike. Of course, it might not always mean gas on the floor, but the odor would be way obvious. If someone doesn't KNOW about hydrolock, they might probably just try to start up as normal....and CLUNK. But if you DO know about the potential for hydrolock, how could you NOT notice?

As McFly noted, I would think that if one takes preventative maintenance seriously (as most of us do), it'd be really hard not to notice a strong gas smell, or puddle of gas under the bike.

Just sayin'.....

I've always parked my bikes over clean sheet of cardboard. If I get a leak of any kind, I notice it right away.

BTW....I plan on getting overflow tubes with SISF's spa treatment at some point. I might be tempting fate by waiting until my carbs feel like they need service (no complaints so far), but I think my regular pre-ride due diligence will greatly reduce the chances of experiencing a hydrolock event. The tubes make it 100%. I'm okay with 95% in the meantime.
 
  I don't know if this has been addressed BUT overflow tube allows the gas to go on the ground (floor) instead of the carbs and cyl.  If you don't have overflow tubes the gas will fill the cyl's then over flow into the air box and onto the ground (floor).  Same result, just a different way of getting there.
    So don't sweat the over flow tubes getting gas on the floor. Either way the gas WILL find a way out when the petcock AND the float needle fail. Over flow tubes just prevent the gas getting into the cyls thus hydrolock if you try to start the engine!!  That's the less expensive results!! ;)
 
Then there could be the scenario where it's a small/slow leak at the float valve/petcock and the cylinder it is happening to just happens to have the intake valve open. In this aligning of the planets it may be possible to have enough gas leak into the cylinder to bend the rod but not necessarily give an odor off.

Thoughts?

Oh, and donate often to OTP.
 
I think it's all too easy to overestimate the frequency, simply because the results can be so catastrophic. Forums like this one attract owners with problems, so I think we hear about hydrolock far more often than it exists in the real world. I also suspect there are a ton of Connies out there, marginally maintained (if at all), that have survived all the way to the landfill, without an incidence of hydrolock.

There are no doubt many different ways to get to the same hydrolock situation, but I think we are looking at a pretty small likelihood overall. Granted, overflow tubes are pretty good insurance, at a pretty reasonable price. But in the big picture, I also suspect we might be a bit obsessed with "separating the fly-chit from the pepper."

We all insure our homes against fire because it's a very real possibility. But nearly all of us will go thru life without burning our houses down....with or without insurance. Yeah, it happens. But not very often, despite how really easy it is to accidentally torch a home.

I seriously can't bring myself to get all worked up over preventing hydrolock. My bike stands a far greater risk of getting totaled in an accident. So, I'll do my due diligence (maintenance), keep my eyes (and nose) open, and hope for the best.



 
LessPaul said:
I think it's all too easy to overestimate the frequency, simply because the results can be so catastrophic. Forums like this one attract owners with problems, so I think we hear about hydrolock far more often than it exists in the real world. I also suspect there are a ton of Connies out there, marginally maintained (if at all), that have survived all the way to the landfill, without an incidence of hydrolock.
.....
I seriously can't bring myself to get all worked up over preventing hydrolock. My bike stands a far greater risk of getting totaled in an accident. So, I'll do my due diligence (maintenance), keep my eyes (and nose) open, and hope for the best.
Click to expand...

:a102: Oh man, Tim - now you've done it. Better hope Steve doesn't read this.  :D :rotflmao:
 
JPavlis_CA said:
:a102: Oh man, Tim - now you've done it. Better hope Steve doesn't read this.  :D :rotflmao:
Click to expand...

  I have read it, and Jim, Of course you know my position on this, and IMO, and I'm basing this on bikes I've personally worked on, not forum stuff, and the guys who call me ALL THE TIME  with hydrolocks, like the email I JUST ANSWERED 5 minutes ago, or the one I answered saturday that never shows up here on the forum, I'm going to say it like this:

  You're a grown man, it's your choice to ignore reality. It's your choice to ignore the best advise you're going to get. It's your choice to lose whatever monetary value you have in your bike. It's your choice to make a foolish decision, as long as you're willing to live with the consequences.

  Think I'm kidding... look at the recent thread by Mike in Texas - he emailed me before ever starting the thread, and he started the email with "I never thought it would happen to me"... So at some point, maybe it's going to be Lesspaul writing those same words.

  And no, this isn't my attempt at scare tactic doom and gloom, I believe at some point, with nothing to prevent a hydrolock , every c-10 will experience a hydrolock event if it lives long enough. JMO,. but based on seeing and hearing about lots of wrecked engines - steve
 
In retrospect I am glad I bought my bike with clogged idle jets. Else I doubt I would have ever come to this site and discovered all this talk about hydrolocks (and TWC3 oil)!

I would have just ridden my bike for a year, or 5, till one day I would come here and my opening line would have been...I never thought it would happen to me but I just ****ed my bike up.

For me it was a simple choice of needing my carbs working right, and while doing that why not get the protection put on it.

Now, had I not had clogged carbs and still discovered this site, I would have likely read less, and generally much less fastidious on all matters hydrolocks.
 
*shrugs* in 2012, the day after I brought my '92 home, I went out to take it for a ride and noticed that it had a puddle of gas under it that was dripping off of the air box.  :-\ I only knew it's significance  because the day I bought it I started digging through the forum here learning as much as I could about my new toy.

I don't know what to say about the frequency it happens, but I can say is that it happened to me. If it were't for the articles here talking about it, I would have hit the starter button that morning, and likely bent a rod.








 
LessPaul:

I read your post about always parking on cardboard, and being sure you'd smell any leaking fuel, etc.  I don't disagree and I understand your feelings, however, as I'm sure you know, hydro-lock can occur in the time you're parked at a restaurant having dinner or going into the hardware store to buy something.  You can't be sure when or where it will happen.  Cardboard or other clean surfaces aren't always available.  I have a Pingel manual petcock and overflow tubes and I still always look at the ground before I hit the starter button.

The first problem I ever had with my Connie (which I bought used with 7,600 miles on it) was the #2 carb float valve stopped sealing while I was riding, and it started running so rich that cylinder ceased combustion.  I had to abort my trip and head home on three cylinders (about 15 miles).  I did not know about hydro-lock on these bikes then, and had I stopped long enough to make a phone call or use the restroom at a gas station, I could have experienced it on the next start-up.

Since then I installed the over-flow tubes and Steve's 2-minute mod and the confidence I feel in leaving the bike unattended (even with the Pingel fully OFF) is worth the price and effort.

Good luck to you.
 
I don't doubt that hydrolock occurs on a more-or-less regular basis. And when I get my carbs serviced next, I'll get the overflow tubes. Like I said, it's pretty good, cheap insurance. But during the course of my winter fix-ups, I'll end up checking the petcock. My carbs seem to be functioning just fine. If I start having problems, I'll get them serviced. If I get any indication of problems, I'll do what needs doing.

But it takes 2 to tango. If I notice that one of the partners starting to move to the beat, I'll pull both of their dance cards.

But I'm not going to preemptively yank the carbs, send them to Steve, and have the overflow tubes installed without any prior indication of trouble. I suppose if I had spent $4,000 on a bike, I might. But I paid $1,500 for my '86 a year ago. It has survived 28 years without overflow tubes. I'm willing to take my chances until such time that I get some indication of trouble. Again, it takes 2 to tango. If it were only one, I'd be there....like, yesterday.

And FWIW, I'm really happy SiSF plays such a central role here. And very happy there are so many here willing to share their hard-won knowledge. But life is a calculated risk. I'm okay living with this one. But that's me. YMMV.




 
I am only a comment-or, but but both of my project bikes are due to hydrolock,something in Washington where they both are from.I had two others here in California to buy and three in Nevada. All with this horrible calamity which befalls our Connies. It may be that I'm watching for it,but I keep finding it also.  The Wizard
 
Another thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is fuel quality. Everyone knows by now that todays gas with 10% or 15% ethanol in it is very hard on parts especially rubber parts. Things that used to take 10 years to deteriorate are now being dry rotted in two or three years thanks to our overlord government. I have never had a hydro lock issue in my entire motorcycle career which covers 45 years of riding and working as a dealership mechanic. And even after installing my Pingel fuel valve I still had Steve install the overflow tubes just in case I ever forgot to turn the Pingel to off. Spending a little money on overflow tubes is alot easier than pulling a motor out of the frame to overhaul or replace it. Steve invented a way to give us some extra peace of mind. So lets just be thankful we have someone who foresaw this train wreck called hydolock and did something to help us avoid it.
 
Jim Snyder said:
Another thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is fuel quality. Everyone knows by now that todays gas with 10% or 15% ethanol in it is very hard on parts especially rubber parts. Things that used to take 10 years to deteriorate are now being dry rotted in two or three years thats to our overlord government. I have never had a hydro lock issue in my entire motorcycle career which covers 45 years of riding and working as a dealership mechanic. And even after installing my Pingel fuel valve I still had Steve install the overflow tubes just in case I ever forgot to turn the Pingel to off. Spending a little money on overflow tubes is alot easier than pulling a motor out of the frame to overhaul or replace it. Steve invented a way to give us some extra peace of mind. So lets just be thankful we have someone who foresaw this train wreck called hydolock and did something to help us avoid it.
Click to expand...

Well Said Jim
 
All this talk of overflow kind of obliterates the fact that with the 2 min mod, a part of SiSF's service,  the bike runs a helluva lot better. Especially in the lower and mid range.

Not to mention the frugally priced cam sprocket, or better yet, re-engineered cams.
 
Jim Snyder said:
Another thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is fuel quality. Everyone knows by now that todays gas with 10% or 15% ethanol in it is very hard on parts especially rubber parts. Things that used to take 10 years to deteriorate are now being dry rotted in two or three years thanks to our overlord government. I have never had a hydro lock issue in my entire motorcycle career which covers 45 years of riding and working as a dealership mechanic. And even after installing my Pingel fuel valve I still had Steve install the overflow tubes just in case I ever forgot to turn the Pingel to off. Spending a little money on overflow tubes is alot easier than pulling a motor out of the frame to overhaul or replace it. Steve invented a way to give us some extra peace of mind. So lets just be thankful we have someone who foresaw this train wreck called hydolock and did something to help us avoid it.
Click to expand...

:iagree:      :beerchug:
 
SteveJ. said:
All this talk of overflow kind of obliterates the fact that with the 2 min mod, a part of SiSF's service,  the bike runs a helluva lot better. Especially in the lower and mid range.

Not to mention the frugally priced cam sprocket, or better yet, re-engineered cams.
Click to expand...

Not really obliterates it, but I think the better the bike runs the more motivated you will be to take care of it and takes steps to insure you don't get a hydrolock.
 
IMHO, the goal is this:  NEVER HAVE A FAILURE OF THE PETCOCK AND A FLOAT VALVE.  Assuming this is the case, Hydrolock does not occur, and everything else is just conjecture. 

How do we assure that this doesn't happen?  We can't.  You can replace your petcock every 3 weeks, and replace your float valves every month.  No guarantee that both won't fail tomorrow.  I will agree that the likelihood is very slight (non-existent depending on your philosophical bent), but bottom line is this:  ONLY OVERFLOW TUBES CAN PROTECT YOU FROM HYDROLOCK.  You can also make the argument that you can install overflows and drain tubes, but if the drains get clogged you can still get hydrolock!

If you are comfortable that your maintenance will prevent hydroclock,  good for you.  If you feel that the risk of having them exceeds the risk of not having gas on the floor under your bike, I won't argue with you. 

I think one of the roles of forums such as this are to ensure that people understand the risks of their action (either way) and enables folks to may their own (hopefully) educated decisions. 

So now I will step down from my soap-box. 
 
Since coming onto this forum and reading its learnings, I've begun using Startron and TCW3 marine oil to counteract the effects of alcohol in the fuel. Hopefully by stabilizing and lubricating/wetting the fuel, they will help maintain the operation and preservation of *critical* fuel system components like needle valves and vacuum petcocks.

I've also discontinued using seafoam, as I've become convinced that it's a great cleaner but a poor maintainer.

Not to claim that these things will prevent a fuel lock. Only diligence and/or passive systems will prevent them. For now, my fuel line is disconnected until this damn winter goes away.
 
Wow...never knew this thread was here.  But I have certainly known about the SiSF fix for many years.....my intent was to send my carbs off to him at the first sign of carb issues (and I still will I am sure) but I took the bike out of storage two winters ago and as I rode it the first time, something wasn't right.  I rode back to my driveway and fuel was running out of the air cleaner housing.  I took the carb bank off and  unstuck a needle, put the bank back (no fun with weak hands even with new rubber air box boots) and the bike ran perfectly. 
As a pilot and aircraft mechanic, I am well aware of what happens to a radial engine with hydro lock.  I decided to put in an inline manual petcock downstream of the vacuum operated one (and upstream of my Ford V-8 fuel filter) and when necessary, have Steve modify my carb bank. 

Question.  If after doing all of the above and having SiSF modify my carbs, if I DID see or smell gas one day under the Connie before riding, could I assume I had a stuck needle?  With the vac. and the manual petcock closed, there would still be a small bit of fuel pressure and fuel in the lines that could leak out through the needle and through the vent line to the floor.  It appears that some owners have fuel piles as a matter of course with the SiSF mod or am I misreading that?
 
if it's not an event from overflowing carbs, the occasional drip  on the floor after a warm ride is the result of condensing the ethanol gasses in the overflow fuel line. if you smell and feel the drips you can tell it''s not gasoline. Steve
 
I installed a manual petcock kit from Murph's.  I have been turning off the petcock(s) since about 1963 and the kit comes with a bright yellow decal that says "Fuel Valve" which I have put near my ignition switch.  I also owned a '00 Honda Valkyrie and when they hydrolock the starter is strong enough to just tear up some hard, expensive to replace gearing.  Turn it off, run it a bit and works for me.  Even if I had those little pipes I would want a manual valve. My $.10 worth, adjusted for inflation and the US/Cdn exchange rate.
Remember the 5 P's both Pre and Post flight = Proper Procedures Prevent Piss Poor Performance
 
I agree and it is what is right for me here in this case.  Even with the SiSF mod, I will keep my two petcocks....
5P's! 
alan said:
I installed a manual petcock kit from Murph's.  I have been turning off the petcock(s) since about 1963 and the kit comes with a bright yellow decal that says "Fuel Valve" which I have put near my ignition switch.  I also owned a '00 Honda Valkyrie and when they hydrolock the starter is strong enough to just tear up some hard, expensive to replace gearing.  Turn it off, run it a bit and works for me.  Even if I had those little pipes I would want a manual valve. My $.10 worth, adjusted for inflation and the US/Cdn exchange rate.
Remember the 5 P's both Pre and Post flight = Proper Procedures Prevent Piss Poor Performance
Click to expand...
 
Steve in Sunny Fla said:
if it's not an event from overflowing carbs, the occasional drip  on the floor after a warm ride is the result of condensing the ethanol gasses in the overflow fuel line. if you smell and feel the drips you can tell it''s not gasoline. Steve
Click to expand...
OK, good to know.  I try very hard to NOT buy E10 but sometimes on tour that is all that is available. Thanks!
 
 
JDM said:
Respectfully this would be a better choice, the same valve in 1/4" NTP size.   http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-8-Electric-Solenoid-Valve-12-Volt-DC-FKM-VITON-Air-Water-Gas-Fuel-B20V/291260556269?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D30251%26meid%3Ddc93a9b2cebf4b2c877cdd5a62d7b888%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26mehot%3Dpp%26sd%3D300714222574&rt=nc
Click to expand...

Cool however at the bottom of the page in the Technical Specifications under 01 Overview it says:

"Note: Not suitable for GRAVITY FEED applications"

But why?
 
stevedap said:
JDM said:
Respectfully this would be a better choice, the same valve in 1/4" NTP size.   http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-8-Electric-Solenoid-Valve-12-Volt-DC-FKM-VITON-Air-Water-Gas-Fuel-B20V/291260556269?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D30251%26meid%3Ddc93a9b2cebf4b2c877cdd5a62d7b888%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26mehot%3Dpp%26sd%3D300714222574&rt=nc
Click to expand...

Cool however at the bottom of the page in the Technical Specifications under 01 Overview it says:

"Note: Not suitable for GRAVITY FEED applications"

But why?
Click to expand...

GOOD CATCH, I didn't see that. Probably has a small orifice. The valve I have that ran for several years is 1/4" NTP connection with a 1/4" orifice diameter.  Thanks for the heads up JD
 
I have the ultimate setup to prevent hydrolock. Pingel manual fuel valve and Steve's overflow tubes. No runs no drips no errors.
 
Jim Snyder said:
I have the ultimate setup to prevent hydrolock. Pingel manual fuel valve and Steve's overflow tubes. No runs no drips no errors.
Click to expand...

Jim. I am running half of what you are running. I am to old for a manual valve so I have an electrical manual valve, I think. I better go check. YAP. The manual part of this valve requires me to turn off the key...... ;)
 
Jim Snyder said:
I have the ultimate setup to prevent hydrolock. Pingel manual fuel valve and Steve's overflow tubes. No runs no drips no errors.
Click to expand...

+1.  Plus the Pingel is chrome-plated and looks really cool when the bike is laying on it's right side with the petcock up.

Ask me how I know................ :(
 
Nosmo said:
Jim Snyder said:
I have the ultimate setup to prevent hydrolock. Pingel manual fuel valve and Steve's overflow tubes. No runs no drips no errors.
Click to expand...

+1.  Plus the Pingel is chrome-plated and looks really cool when the bike is laying on it's right side with the petcock up.

Ask me how I know................ :(
Click to expand...

What I want to know is, did you forget to turn the gas off when the bike was laying on it's right side with the petcock up?
 
JDM said:
What I want to know is, did you forget to turn the gas off when the bike was laying on it's right side with the petcock up?
Click to expand...
Prolly less likely for gas to head into the open intake valve when she's on her side though.  :rotflmao:
 
Nosmo & Jim, I would be running a manual petcock on my Connie before I would run the OEM petcock; that's for sure. But, I have chosen to run a solenoid valve instead as I am old and forgetful. Knowing what I know about Connie fuel system, I would not run any of the 3 valves without overflow tubes. At least, with the manual petcock you control your on destiny but with the OEM petcock it is a crap shoot 'cause you never know when it will fail. And as a minimum, Steve's overflow tubes go along way toward preventing future hydrolock events along with opening up the tank vents.  Respectfully to each his own.
 
It was already "OFF", bike in the basement for maintenance.  See below. The Pingel is circled in yellow:

 

Attachments

  • P1040101emailverysmall.JPG
    P1040101emailverysmall.JPG
    281.8 KB · Views: 146
  • P1040100emailverysmall - Copy.JPG
    P1040100emailverysmall - Copy.JPG
    273 KB · Views: 145
DoerOfThings said:
that's quite the effective, albeit unorthodox windshield removal system ya got there.

:-\
Click to expand...

Yep, sheared that baby right off. What the heck, it needed polishing anyway.  Got the right side mirror, too.  :(
 
Hope you got the bottom of the left muffler while you were at it... No point in wasting an opportunity!
 
Is there a part number or size for the Pingel petcock? I'm thinking this would be the best place to start, then intstall the overflow tubes in the float bowls and do the other carb upgrades at the end of the riding season.
 
Mad Dog said:
Is there a part number or size for the Pingel petcock? I'm thinking this would be the best place to start, then intstall the overflow tubes in the float bowls and do the other carb upgrades at the end of the riding season.
Click to expand...

Here's the link to their spec page.  This spec page link is shown in their "Fuel valves" page also.  Note that in addition to the valve, you need their adapter plate to attach it to the tank.  Try not to faint when you see their prices.  I can't find my receipt with the P/N that I got.  I got one that is not in their recommended list as I wanted a slightly different angle on the outlet nipple.  Doesn’t really matter.  Go with what they list based on how you want it to fit with your fuel line routing, etc.  They have several options.  Click on the valve P/N's in the chart and it will link you to a photo and description so you can choose.  Their spec page only shows "Concors"  2004, but as you know, we are all the same.

They have both straight manual valves and also vacuum valves, but I don’t know anything about their vacuum units.  Call and talk to them if need be, I did, and they are good to talk with.

You still need overflow tubes to prevent hydrolock, if YOU don’t shut it off.

NOTE that the adapter plate bolts onto the tank in the standard holes, and then the valve body screws onto it.  When you install it, be sure you clock it so you can get the mounting bolts out for when you need to pull it off to drain your tank, etc.

http://www.pingelonline.com/prodcat/fuel-valves.asp

http://www.pingelonline.com/images/Pingel_Powerflo_Fuel%20_Valve_Application_Chart.pdf

Pic below of mine installed:
 

Attachments

  • P1020181 - Copyemail.JPG
    P1020181 - Copyemail.JPG
    237.7 KB · Views: 87
I did the Pingel upgrade today. Pretty straight forward. I did have to use a step drill to widen the hole where the Pingel tube goes into the tank. Rigged up a shop vac to suck up most of the shavings while I was doing it. The SS screen on the Pingel will keep out any other missed bits out of the fuel system. Word of caution, take your side covers off. I managed to put a nice gouge in the right side when I was fumbling with the tank to get the wires from the sending unit disconnected. I got most of it buffed out, and it's probably only visible to me, but I did have a good Irish stomping fit when it happened. Live and learn. Now I've got the piece of mind that the fuel is shut off when I'm not riding. At the end of the season I'll send the carbs to SiSF for his upgrades.

Pingel 44mm Fuel Valve Adapter A1702C
Pingel Power-Flow Petcock 6211-AH
 
Sorry, should have mentioned that you need to enlarge the hole slightly.  A long stick magnet can help also to get shavings out.

I have a small dent in the left front of my tank from trying to take it off the first time without pulling the glove box covers.  They are always the first thing I take off now when stripping the Tupperware for maintenance.

Just don't forget to TURN IT OFF!!!!!

 
And I'm guessing that the smaller secondary hose attached to the backside of the original petcock and leading to a port on the #2 carburetor is the vacuum actuator. I blocked this off with a small tube with a bolt. Yeah, I know this isn't the best way to do it, but I siliconed the bejezus out of the bolt and made sure there was a solid seal before installing. A guy can only make so many trips to the automotive/hardware store... the weather's good. I wanted to ride!
 
Nothing wrong with using a bolt as long as the smooth shank portion of the bolt goes into the vacuum line, and is a tight fit.
 
JDM said:
Jim Snyder said:
I have the ultimate setup to prevent hydrolock. Pingel manual fuel valve and Steve's overflow tubes. No runs no drips no errors.
Click to expand...

Jim. I am running half of what you are running. I am to old for a manual valve so I have an electrical manual valve, I think. I better go check. YAP. The manual part of this valve requires me to turn off the key...... ;)
Click to expand...

I know it's an old post, but 2 years later, how is the electric valve working, and which one did you go with?

I am a Controls Tech for Toyo Tires Manufacturing (high tech maintenance man lol). We have quite a bit of electric solenoids in some very critical applications.

I would wire it up to power on when key is in run position, but also having an inline switch to turn it off to run the line/carbs dry would be a nice feature..(or just pull the fuse from aux block). 

I'm thinking this would be perfect.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01GL478RG/ref=asc_df_B01GL478RG5100238/?tag=hyprod-20&creative=395033&creativeASIN=B01GL478RG&linkCode=df0&hvadid=167117508216&hvpos=1o4&hvnetw=g&hvrand=8940232582372818662&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9010866&hvtargid=pla-311239116445
 
I have one on my 2006. I had Steve work up his magic on the 2002 but still have a valve for it. Costs like 8 bucks, works just fine.

I really don't want to monkey with the carbs again so I'm sticking with the valve.
 
dboogie2288 said:
I have one on my 2006. I had Steve work up his magic on the 2002 but still have a valve for it. Costs like 8 bucks, works just fine.

I really don't want to monkey with the carbs again so I'm sticking with the valve.
Click to expand...

OK, so when you have flatness from fuel starvation don't email me until you've removed the valve. Steve
 
Really? I've been running the manual valve on the 06 for 4 years now with no major issue.... Why would your service make a difference? Is it taking in more fuel? Don't care honestly, I'll remove it in a heartbeat but just curious of the science from the man who would know.
 
dboogie2288 said:
Really? I've been running the manual valve on the 06 for 4 years now with no major issue.... Why would your service make a difference? Is it taking in more fuel? Don't care honestly, I'll remove it in a heartbeat but just curious of the science from the man who would know.
Click to expand...

  I guess I misunderstood, I thought you had the solenoid valve. Either way, the issue with the inline valves, like inline filters, is restricted fuel flow volume. It causes the carbs to not be able to fill fully, fuel levels drop and the performance goes flat, or you get the running out of fuel feeling. Steve
 
Just for fun, I did an estimate on fuel flow required but don't necessarily trust my numbers!  Treat this as a trigger to start discussion.

The calculations to determine the fuel flow necessary to keep the carbs full are fairly straightforward, but the values to use are a bit fuzzy. 

Using 200 Hp (at the crankshaft) as a conservative power output for a C10, I come up with about .76 Oz/sec. required fuel flow.  If your fuel flow is this or greater, there should be no issue with fuel starvation.  Since the numbers are strictly estimates, if your  fuel flow is anywhere close to this, you need to pay attention to make sure you are getting enough fuel to the carbs.

My assumptions:
Max power output:    200 Hp              Very conservative for a C10!
BSFC:                      .65 Lb/Hr/HP      Conservative number for an IC engine. 
Fuel density:              6.074 Lb/Gal      "Typical" pump gas.


 
Bob H said:
Just for fun, I did an estimate on fuel flow required but don't necessarily trust my numbers!  Treat this as a trigger to start discussion.

The calculations to determine the fuel flow necessary to keep the carbs full are fairly straightforward, but the values to use are a bit fuzzy. 

Using 200 Hp (at the crankshaft) as a conservative power output for a C10, I come up with about .76 Oz/sec. required fuel flow.  If your fuel flow is this or greater, there should be no issue with fuel starvation.  Since the numbers are strictly estimates, if your  fuel flow is anywhere close to this, you need to pay attention to make sure you are getting enough fuel to the carbs.

My assumptions:
Max power output:    200 Hp              Very conservative for a C10!
BSFC:                      .65 Lb/Hr/HP      Conservative number for an IC engine. 
Fuel density:              6.074 Lb/Gal      "Typical" pump gas.
Click to expand...

  All correct from the engineering standpoint, BUT the issue with the c-10 is the tank venting is minimal, and any inline restriction shows up in terms if insufficient flow. So yes, the issue really isn't the flow rate of the valve as long as it's sufficient, it's the coupling of old components (tank vent) and inline restrictions that causes the problems, not to mention that the flow rate changes based on head pressure from the tank. Steve
 
Steve in Sunny Fla said:
dboogie2288 said:
Really? I've been running the manual valve on the 06 for 4 years now with no major issue.... Why would your service make a difference? Is it taking in more fuel? Don't care honestly, I'll remove it in a heartbeat but just curious of the science from the man who would know.
Click to expand...

  I guess I misunderstood, I thought you had the solenoid valve. Either way, the issue with the inline valves, like inline filters, is restricted fuel flow volume. It causes the carbs to not be able to fill fully, fuel levels drop and the performance goes flat, or you get the running out of fuel feeling. Steve
Click to expand...

Steve, I respectfully disagree with you on this. I have been running a solenoid on my Connie for about 15 years. As a matter of fact, I run a valve and a filter. It is my opinion that before you draw conclusions you need to take a longer look at this. I am quite certain that most of the starvation problems are not caused by the plumbing on the bottom of the tank. It is the venting valves on the filler cap top of the tank. There is a bench test you can do on your Connie. Take the tank off and elevate it to the approximate height you have above the carbs, drain the tank, and install whatever you are going to run in the fuel line. Then add one gallon of fuel back into the tank, open your fuel valve and see if you get a full stream of fuel coming out the end of the fuel line. If not, remove the vent valves in the fuel tank filler cap and repeat the process to see if you get a full stream of fuel. If not, call me a SOB and go on about your merry way. What I have done is installed my 3/8"npt solenoid valve directly to the bottom of the tank, removing the old petcock completely. I made about a 2" stand pipe out of copper tubing that sticks up into the tank. Then I installed the old oem filter off the petcock over the stand pipe. This keeps most of the trash out of the fuel system (BUT NOT ALL). I have a street ell in the outlet of the solenoid valve the has a hose barb 3/8"x5/16". This is important - I only use HELIX fuel line 7/16"OD x 5/16"ID. This is the best fuel line I have found for the Connie....and I run it across to the right side of the engine to a Seadoo filter. I made a bracket out of a piece of aluminum plate, that bolts to one of the valve cover bolts,  so it is accessable on the right side of the bike. This makes it very easy to check for trash from time to time, and believe me, you need to check from time to time. From there, I run the fuel to the tee at the inlet of the carbs and secure it with a spring clamp. No worm clamps are used on the fuel system on my Connie - only constant effort clamps. Between the petcock and the filter, I insulate the fuel line to keep it as cool as possible. That is my way to get around vapor lock. I had a incident runing across Nebraska 100+degree heat one time where the bike vapor locked, by insulating the fuel line between the petcock and the filter where it runs over the top of the carb intakes I have not experienced this again runing in 100+ heat. This system has worked many trouble free years. By installing the solenoid valve on the bottom of the tank, I now have no reserve. The way I get around that is a very simple fix. Just empty your fuel tank and add back the number of gallons of gas that you want for reserve. Let your fuel gage settle down. I used a bit of yellow nail polish on the glass where the needle settled. I use two gallons in the tank as my reserve. Funny how that works just like my car. You can forget to turn your valve off as much as you want to. And that is just how it is..... PS my 02 Connie has gone to my son in Denver, as I am too old and with a broken left ankle it is just too top heavy for me to hold up. I will try and have Dan to take a few photos of what I have as it is so much more simple to install than it sounds. 
The total cost for this modification (a whole new fuel system) should cost somewhere between $75 & $100. Try it, you will like it. If you want more info about this mod just PM me. HTH JD 

SEADOO FILTER # Manufacturer Part#
275500088 LINK.  http://www.ebay.com/itm/OEM-Sea-Doo-PWC-Fuel-Filter-275500088-/142274795826
HELIX fuel line #20018-516-7167  http://helixracingproducts.com/index.php/products-html/tubing-hose/fuel-line/5-16-fuel-line/solid-fuel-lines.html 

Link to valve #2w-040-10    https://www.amazon.com/Woljay-Solenoid-Normally-Closed-Replacement/dp/B06XVG9K6P/ref=sr_1_11?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1501511586&sr=1-11&keywords=12v+solenoid+valve+3%2F8 
 
Steve I agree with you 100% that it is tank vent problem and not a flow problem. The solenoid valve is not the problem, and if you use a Seadoo filter you have a place to catch the trash before it ever gets to your carbs.  HTH JD 
 
JDH: I see that you removed the petcock, installed the solenoid directly to the bottom of the tank, used a 3/8" NPT Solenoid, a good fuel line, and filter.

Removing the petcock removed one of the restrictions that others had.
    Orifice size in a stock petcock is tiny. Perhaps 1/8"..
    Most installed the solenoid valve in the hose after a petcock.
Installing a 3/8" NPT (liquid use) Solenoid is also better than {what I recall} others used.
  I think they used 1/4" NPT or 5/16" NPT (possibly air type) solenoids.
  ie; I suspect the orifice sizes in your solenoid are bigger than other solenoids.
I also see you considered vapor lock, hose size, filter size, and routing.

Bottom Line:  I think you built a better mousetrap. (ie; better solenoid installation than others tried)
                    It's possible that your system can flow more fuel than a stock petcock.
                        If so, the restriction of the tank vent would have less negative effect on your system.

But, I agree with Mike. The only thing that will assure no Hydrolock is overflow pipes in the carbs.
                       
Ride safe, Ted
 
I did all what you folks have already done. Way back then all these electric solenoid valves and additional filters and manual petcocks= then bigger  fuel lines and bigger solenoids  and  all recommendations  by this forum and I can tell you this from personnel experience .

The electric solenoid DID NOT work!  I ran out of fuel and nothing that I was told to do to fix it worked. You can run all the numbers you want- I still ran out of fuel.

The manual petcock setup- Great if you have over flow tubes- Way way more dangerous than OEM if you dont have overflow tubes.  There have been several on this forum that have ruined their engines BECAUSE they installed a manual petcock and hydro-locked their engines shortly after. I know of 3 at least. I have explained  over and over and over again  as to why the manual petcock is far more dangerous to have than the automatic petcock. I am tired of explaining.

Extra inline fuel filter- another bad idea and why do that? The screen that is already on your petcock in your tank  is the same micron filter as the inline filter so all the inline does is well-- nothing at all besides lowering fuel flow and a place for air to collect and create a vapor lock.

I dont need to hear from all those who say : I never had a problem or it works for me. It did not work at all for me and others telling me it works did not help at all. Same as - I smoked all my life and never got cancer so it must be good for everyone else. NO- its not.

So what does work:  OEM petcock and overflow tubes.We know this works. Just maintain your OEM petcock  like you should and you will have no issues.
Sorry for my rant but we have over this so many times it is ridiculous  that we still go down these tangents when we know what already works. Simple and easy- get over flow tubes and and OEM petcock and be done with it. If you already have over flow tubes then by all means go ahead and get a manual petcock BUT do not think you are better off with a manual petcock and No over flow tubes. You are NOT. You are far more likely to ruin your engine.

 
I could not have said it better. Thank you Daytona Mike.
I know there those out there who think simple is just not
good enough. I let them do what they want, as they will
anyway.
 
The flow rate is definitely affected by the tank vent, fuel line size, petcock, any added filters, solenoids etc.

That's the reason for the calculation.  If your system can't make the flow rate required to keep the engine happy at full power, it's inadequate and won't work reliably.  Do whatever you need to do to lower the resistance and increase the flow. 

This is easy to test by measuring the time required to fill a reasonably big volume to make sure you can meet long term steady state flow, not just a few seconds.

Going back to stock with vent tubes seems like the simplest solution at least to me.
 
dboogie2288 said:
Soooo, is the pingel petcock just voodoo then?
Click to expand...

  I wouldn't say it's voodoo. BUT I'm on my second oem petcock in 23 yrs and it works fine at 120 mph!! No problem with fuel flow. If you do have a problem look elsewhere.
 
dboogie2288 said:
Soooo, is the pingel petcock just voodoo then?
Click to expand...

The pingle petcock isn't voodoo or bad, it just puts 100% of hydrolock protection on the rider.
It also doesn't protect the engine from hydrolock in the time the fuel is turned on, to the time
the motorcycle is started...  So iffin' you turn the fuel on, then say forgot to strap your helmet
so you do so before you start the engine, that time might be spent filling the cylinder with gas...

Pingle petcocks will work 100%, as long the rider is 100% efficient in its operation.

My overflow tubes started pouring gas when I was on 'prime' after the bike sat for a week or so.
They 'let loose' several seconds after I turned the petcock to prime.  So there's little margin for
operator error with a manual petcock, and no way of knowing IF there's a needle valve issue.
 
So to be absolutely safe your saying I should get suited up completely first.
Then start cranking the engine over while turning on the Pingle petcock.
That way if I have a stuck float it will just flood the engine and hydro-lock
it while it is running.
This is all too much, I feel Steve's overflow tubes are enough.
 
first post here... picked a good one i see.  :D

I've had my 01 for a few mos, but my (ex) father in law had one for years and i worked on it a few times, 2x for the hydro-locking issue. also, i am VERY into vintage bikes, and having had more than a few kawi triples in my life, i've seen vacuum petcocks seep, hydro lock, blow crank seals out, bend rods, etc. one of the FIRST things i did to the bike was fit a manual inline petcock. its a 1/4" fuel shutoff valve at a 90 degree angle, i think it was 12 bucks. good quality, zero issues, and in plain sight.  my thought is, if i can remember to turn the fuel on and off, anybody can. no different than putting the side-stand up.

i still have the vacuum petcock on the tank and it works awesome. there's usually no warning when it will fail, so why risk it?

concours-petcock_1_zps5ryrabsx.jpg


concours-petcock_2_zpsqduc2ygo.jpg


concours-petcock_3_zpssr3v2bj6.jpg
 
oh i know, im aware of that, i'll add some myself eventually. nothing like backup plans over backup plans. i firmly believe in redundancy. i have a professional machining and mechanic background, but am am m.e. for a living, so i'l do the bowls myself... this was the quickest fix while i was shaking down the 'new to me' bike .

one time about 8 yrs ago we had a hung fuel injector that hydro-locked a 300z  thats was fun.  :eek:  i do plan on adding the over flows eventually.  :great: just posted this as an alternate suggestion
thanks for the welcome  :beerchug:
 
RWulf said:
So to be absolutely safe your saying I should get suited up completely first.
Then start cranking the engine over while turning on the Pingle petcock.
That way if I have a stuck float it will just flood the engine and hydro-lock
it while it is running.
This is all too much, I feel Steve's overflow tubes are enough.
Click to expand...
Yes, you are correct on the first point. But re-think WHAT a true shut-off does. It physically blocks fuel from moving thru a line with 100% certainty. Moving a 'PINGEL' from ON to OFF keeps tank fuel in the tank and not into the engine and then perhaps to the garage floor. Yes, it involves a modicum of human effort instead of vacuum hoses, springs and whatnot. Personally, I've not seen a Gasoline Tanker going down the highway without one. Nor a tanker of Jet A on the ramp. Just sayin'......
 
Let's look at this another way..
Several things have to occur before you can have a hydrolock..
    1; The petcock has to allow gas flow to the carbs.
    2; The float needles have to allow the gas level to rise excessively.
    3: An intake valve has to open to allow enough gas to accumulate in a cylinder.
    4; Someone has to crank the bike.

I agree, overflow pipes will absolutely prevent hydrolock, and an inline valve will not "absolutely" prevent hydrolock.
But, the 2 together will absolutely prevent hydrolock, "and" can prevent gas from reaching the carbs/cylinder/floor.

In my case, my bike is stored in my garage. {There is also a gas water heater in that garage}.
If the petcock fails and the carbs leak (with or without overflows) the gas could reach the ground.
If that happens, I have the potential for a fire.
NOTE: My garage has an elevated water heater to reduce the possibility.

Whenever this discussion reappears, I follow it.
Because preventing the gas flow would make my garage safer.
I agree that redundancy (valve and overflow) would do that, and prevent hydrolock.. 
My concern is; the extra valve could restrict flow.

Ride safe, Ted
 
connie_rider said:
Let's look at this another way..
Several things have to occur before you can have a hydrolock..
    1; The petcock has to allow gas flow to the carbs.
    2; The float needles have to allow the gas level to rise excessively.
    3: An intake valve has to open to allow enough gas to accumulate in a cylinder.
    4; Someone has to crank the bike.

I agree, overflow pipes will absolutely prevent hydrolock, and an inline valve will not "absolutely" prevent hydrolock.
But, the 2 together will absolutely prevent hydrolock, "and" can prevent gas from reaching the carbs/cylinder/floor.

In my case, my bike is stored in my garage. {There is also a gas water heater in that garage}.
If the petcock fails and the carbs leak (with or without overflows) the gas could reach the ground.
If that happens, I have the potential for a fire.
NOTE: My garage has an elevated water heater to reduce the possibility.

Whenever this discussion reappears, I follow it.
Because preventing the gas flow would make my garage safer.
I agree that redundancy (valve and overflow) would do that, and prevent hydrolock.. 
My concern is; the extra valve could restrict flow.

Ride safe, Ted
Click to expand...

  I've seen hidden hydrolocks (when you don't know the cylinder is filled ) and also hydrolocks that spilled out into the airbox and onto the ground. Overflow tubes are no more dangerous to exploding your garage than a hydrolock can be. Steve
 
I totally agree with Steve...

That's why I sed; If the petcock fails and the carbs leak (with or without overflows) the gas could reach the ground.

ie: If the petcock fails, gas can spill to the ground without overflows as easily as it can with them.

The point of my reply was; we have more and more petcock failures.
Maybe an inline valve {of some type} would be a good option.

Ride safe, Ted
 
connie_rider said:
Maybe an inline valve {of some type} would be a good option.
Click to expand...
You can't say that Ted, that's the whole point of this thread, they don't work period so don't even try one. Unless of course they magically happen to work in some physics defying one two in a million installation.  ::)
 
  LET's get real!! when and if the gas flows the float needle does NOT close when the float bowl is full the raw fuel will run into the cyl and ---- are you ready?? --you hit the starter button with gas in that cyl THAT does not COMPRESS you get BANG!! A bent rod!!!  :mad: :mad:

  that is why you need float bowl over flow tubes!! Better the excess gas leaves the float bowl than filling a cyl with raw fuel. :-[
 
I'm not the bad guy. I'm just stirring the discussion.  >:D

I want to point this out;
      We already "all" have inline valves on our bikes.
          That inline valve is called a "petcock".
            Unfortunately too many are failing.

I agree, we have an absolute way to prevent hydrolock.
  That fix is an overflow tube. {thank you Steve}.

The idea was presented to add a better valve, or add a secondary valve.
At the start of the original discussion, it was viewed as a way to prevent hydrolock.
    It can't absolutely do that.
          ie; It can lessen the possibility of hydrolock, but it can not "absolutely" prevent it..

Lets discuss the valve idea as a way to stop gas flow if a petcock leaks.
  It needs to be simple to install, and not restrict flow when the valve is open.

Thoughts??  :)

Ride safe, Ted

PS: In all cases, {if a valve is installed or not}, overflow tubes MUST be installed to prevent hydrolock. Period!!
 
connie_rider said:
I'm not the bad guy. I'm just stirring the discussion.  >:D

I want to point this out;
      We already "all" have inline valves on our bikes.
          That inline valve is called a "petcock".
            Unfortunately too many are failing.

I agree, we have an absolute way to prevent hydrolock.
  That fix is an overflow tube. {thank you Steve}.

The idea was presented to add a better valve, or add a secondary valve.
At the start of the original discussion, it was viewed as a way to prevent hydrolock.
    It can't absolutely do that.
          It can lessen the possibility of hydrolock, but it can not "absolutely" prevent it..

Lets discuss the valve idea as a way to stop gas flow if a petcock leaks.
  It needs to be simple to install, and not restrict flow when the valve is open.

Thoughts??  :)

Ride safe, Ted
Click to expand...

Actually...you is a trouble maker, but that is another problem.  :(

As for leaking petcock, I just installed Murph's kit where you flip the lever upside down and cut off the lever to install the new lever 180 out.
It's an old kit, but it stops the leak. Just put it on my 86 and will install it on my other C10 when I get around to it. No longer depends on vacuum to turn ON/OFF the gas.  I used a MUCH stiffer spring to push the diaphragm hard into place and applied liquid gasket to the drip port to stop it up forever. Problem solved. Flip new lever forward, gas off. Down, PRI, to rear, RESERVE.

The only problem left now is how to get rid of troublemakers.
 
connie_rider said:
Let's look at this another way..
Several things have to occur before you can have a hydrolock..
    1; The petcock has to allow gas flow to the carbs.
    2; The float needles have to allow the gas level to rise excessively.
    3: An intake valve has to open to allow enough gas to accumulate in a cylinder.
    4; Someone has to crank the bike.

I agree, overflow pipes will absolutely prevent hydrolock, and an inline valve will not "absolutely" prevent hydrolock.
But, the 2 together will absolutely prevent hydrolock, "and" can prevent gas from reaching the carbs/cylinder/floor.

In my case, my bike is stored in my garage. {There is also a gas water heater in that garage}.
If the petcock fails and the carbs leak (with or without overflows) the gas could reach the ground.
If that happens, I have the potential for a fire.
NOTE: My garage has an elevated water heater to reduce the possibility.

Whenever this discussion reappears, I follow it.
Because preventing the gas flow would make my garage safer.
I agree that redundancy (valve and overflow) would do that, and prevent hydrolock.. 
My concern is; the extra valve could restrict flow.

Ride safe, Ted
Click to expand...

connie_rider said:
I'm not the bad guy. I'm just stirring the discussion.  >:D

I want to point this out;
      We already "all" have inline valves on our bikes.
          That inline valve is called a "petcock".
            Unfortunately too many are failing.

I agree, we have an absolute way to prevent hydrolock.
  That fix is an overflow tube. {thank you Steve}.

The idea was presented to add a better valve, or add a secondary valve.
At the start of the original discussion, it was viewed as a way to prevent hydrolock.
    It can't absolutely do that.
          It can lessen the possibility of hydrolock, but it can not "absolutely" prevent it..

Lets discuss the valve idea as a way to stop gas flow if a petcock leaks.
  It needs to be simple to install, and not restrict flow when the valve is open.

Thoughts??  :)

Ride safe, Ted
Click to expand...

Hey everyone, pick your feet up, it's going to get thick. Ted, you have some good points here. I agree with you 100% on what it takes to hydrolock a Connie.

Logic should dictate what you do with your fuel system. The points I want to make are just my use of logic. In order to have a hydrolock event, a few things have to happen. The petcock has to fail open along with the float needles as well. If you look at how the OEM petcock seats to shut off fuel flow, you will see it seats against the head pressure and not with with the head pressure in the fuel tank (the OEM petcock uses a spring to overcome head pressure to seat). If the tank vent valves are not working, you can build up pressure in the tank. If enough pressure builds up, it will unseat the petcock and start it to leak. I don't know at what pressure this can happen, but I do know that if enough pressure builds up, the petcock fails open and then there is enough pressure to unseat the float needles. This sets you up for hydrolock.

I posted the way you can disable the tank vents and showed how the petcock works. Maybe you all can do a search in the forum if you are interested. I would like to point out that the only thing here that can fail closed is the thing you would want to fail open, the tank vent. It is very hard for me not to defend the solenoid valve when it's only logical to use it. 

OK. Now let's take a look at the restrictions in the fuel system for the Connie. (1) The screen in the tank has a bit (who knows how much), (2) the orifice in the petcock and the amount the valve unseats (how far it opens, that depends on how strong the seating spring is or how much it has been stretched), (3) the ID of the fuel line, the length of it and how smooth it is on the inside, (4) the cracking pressure for the float needles, and I am sure there are some that I have not thought of. Any thoughts? 

Let's take a look at the Solenoid valve I linked to. NOTE the Part NO you need to look at is 2w16-0-10 and NOT 2w04-0-10 https://www.amazon.com/Woljay-Solenoid-Normally-Closed-Replacement/dp/B06XVG9K6P/ref=sr_1_11?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1501511586&sr=1-11&keywords=12v+solenoid+valve+3%2F8.
If you look at the specs for this valve, you will see that it fails closed (stops gas flowing). That takes away one of the causes for hydrolock. This valve uses the head pressure in the tank to help it seat (this takes away the problem when or if the OEM vent valve fails closed). That's two hydrolock opportunities taken away. If you look at the solenoid valve spec, you will see that the orifice size for this valve is 16mm. If you do the math, you will see that the fuel line ID is only 8MM and it builds up pressure along its length. The solenoid valve is a lot less restrictive compared to the OEM petcock. The ID and length of fuel line is what it is. You got to go from point A to point B. Now comes the Helix fuel line. It has very good flow characteristics (the best I've found) as it is very smooth on the inside. The Seadoo settling bowl catches water and trash before it can get into your carbs and this will save you a lot of future carb problems.

In summary, the OEM petcock fails open, the float needles fail open. (If you use a manual valve it will work as long as you don't cause it to fail open. A manual valve is my second choice along with overflow tubes.) I am not sure what the duty cycles are for this solenoid valve is but my guess is it is good for around 100,000 +/- cycles and that is a lot more than anything else you will get for $17.63 shipped. If it were me, I would get two for that price - a spare that I carry with me. After all, it fails closed and stops the fuel flow. A spare will get you back on the road. I hope this helps someone from getting hydrolock.

I no longer have a Connie so you can take it or leave it, as I no longer have dog in this fight one might say. Be safe. 

P.S. Please get Steve's overflow tubes installed if you can. I believe in them as the Connie is the only bike I can remember not having overflows. Many years ago (15-16), I started "preaching" about hydrolock and caught hell over it. In those days, hydrolock didn't happen often because the bikes were a lot newer, but I could see from the way the Connie fuel system was designed that there was going to be trouble with hydrolock.

I called Gary Murphy back when he was starting his business and told him I might have a new product for him and made a deal that if he would buy me a solenoid valve I would test it. I gave Gary the valve information and in just a few days the the valve showed up. Later on Gary gave me 2 tank adapters that would allow me to bolt the solenoid valve to the bottom of the tank and eliminate the OEM petcock. That was just what I needed to get me further down the road. (If you decide to install the solenoid valve in the tank, you will need to talk to Gary for these adapters.) As it turned out, the valve I selected was too small for some Connies. On my Connie, it worked fine. At that time I was using 3/8" fuel line run as short as possible and only the OEM petcock as a restriction.

Not to long after I got the Murphy valve, Zorlac started using it on his Connie without any trouble and I think he is still using it. I posted how I installed the Murphy valve on my Connie and Gary started sending out a few valves.

I remember Gary asking me to run the Connie as fast as it would go to see if the valve would show any flow problems and I remember telling Gary, if he wanted to do that, go ahead. I didn't have enough balls for it, and there is no straight road around here. If I had made that run, I am sure it would have shown the valve to be too small. I am sorry I did not make that run. Some folks started having problems with this valve so I went back to the drawing board. Not in the 15-16 years have I found a better quality Murphy valve than the original, but, I did find some bigger valves and started doing tests on my Connie. I also was gathering information from folks on the forum. Some of it was very good and, just like now, some not worth a dam. In the meantime, a fellow from Florida named Bubba (Steve) came up overflow tubes. Steve put a hole in the bucket but didn't do much for stopping the leak. I am sure of this, the overflow tubes have done more good at stopping hydrolock than all the other BS put together. Steve installed the mod on my Connie. I should have been the first one to send my carbs to him, I knew the overflow tubes would work. It should be one of the first things you do to your Connie. All the rest of this is gravy, or BS. You be the judge. But, remember, I will give you an Oklahoma guarantee.   

HTH, JD  P.S. you might want to go back and relook at my post on page 7

Here is another valve source. https://www.amazon.com/RELIAN-Electric-Replacement-Pipelines-Applications/dp/B01FU3Y4VW/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_2?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1501720153&sr=1-2-fkmr0&keywords=2w16010+12v+solenoid+valve+3%2F8 
 
Hope I stirred some good discussions.
Leaving town for a few days.
  Ya'll, play nice!

Ride safe, Ted

PS: The reason this idea is of particular interest to me is simple;
        My Buddies garage/and part of his house burnt. "Because of a leaking carb" on a riding lawnmower.
          (He didn't turn off the gas when he finished mowing. Carb overflowed, Gas fumes reached his water heater. Boom.)
 
JDM said:
Zorlac started using it on his Connie without any trouble and I think he is still using it.
Click to expand...
Yep, 100K mi and still working.  :motonoises:
At 151K mi my clutch slip impedes rapid forward motion way more than fuel flow.  :rotflmao:
 
connie_rider said:
Hope I stirred some good discussions.
Leaving town for a few days.
  Ya'll, play nice!

Ride safe, Ted

PS: The reason this idea is of particular interest to me is simple;
        My Buddies garage/and part of his house burnt. "Because of a leaking carb" on a riding lawnmower.
          (He didn't turn off the gas when he finished mowing. Carb overflowed, Gas fumes reached his water heater. Boom.)
Click to expand...

Ted, you just keep on keeping on you are doing good.  All i can say is to thy on self be true. 
 
JDM
Please supply us a link, to the actual manufacturers spec, detailing that the "flow orifice" is 16mm.

I see the "chart", but is without actual manufactrer verification... which is what I go on.

I cannot see it from the link you provided in post 194, nor do I believe for 1 second, that is correct.
I have speced solenoids, and designed hydraulic circuits for decades, and inlet/outlet thread sized valves of this nature NEVER have an orifice that size.
I would say it is closer to .160" diameter, finding a solenoid with a 1/4" orifice thru, is difficult even, and I base this on my job, and the fact I researched this all a lonnnnnnnnng time ago, when Gary was looking for a valve to use. I could not find a single 12v small, 3/8-1/4" npt valve with an orifice over 3/16", and that one was expensive, high buck one.  Even on 1" npt valves, you would be hard pressed to find an orifice 3/8" or roughly 10 mm.

I made my conclusions based on specific product literature from the manufacturers of the valves, with specific attention to "delta P" pressure drops, at atmospheric pressures.  I found none I was excited about, if I had, Murph would be selling them, I guarantee...
 
It seems to me that petcock FAILURE can be a root cause of a hydrolock, but my petcock was
in perfect working order when my overflow tubes "saved" my bike.  I just turned my
petcock to prime and a failing petcock was NOT a specific cause to my carb flooding to the
point the overflow tube bypassed gas to the floor.

The wording Ted used is the most accurate:    :great:

connie_rider said:
Several things have to occur before you can have a hydrolock..
    1; The petcock has to allow gas flow to the carbs.
    2; The float needles have to allow the gas level to rise excessively.
    3: An intake valve has to open to allow enough gas to accumulate in a cylinder.
    4; Someone has to crank the bike.
Click to expand...

If we're informing people, we should be making sure that we're saying it properly.
Soooo,  by adding a secondary fuel valve and trying to prime your motorcycle after an
extended sit will not do a darned thing, because the rider will have opened the secondary
valve, letting gas flow to an open needle valve, etc... etc... etc..  CLUNK!

So, put 5 shut off valves in, and as long as the needle valve is open, and an intake valve is open
you're going to be right in line for a possible Oh $H!+ moment when fuel starts flowing.  Seeing as there's
no easy way to see if these two conditions exist, it's best off to have a little gas on the floor,
or in an oil catch pan, which I NOW put under my bike when it goes away, and when I prime it.
(This is my argument for using a Pingle as a stop gap for hydrolock, because for day to day operation,
the OEM petcock does a better job than the owner/operator)

Just sayin'!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top