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How come we don't all install in-line fuel valves to block hydolock?
- Thread starter benserve88@gmail.com
- Start date
:truce:
Ok,
I only asked because both Relian and Woljay, come up goose eggs when I search for them as a valve manufacturer...
Sorry to have discomforted ya, but I tend to be a bit aprehensive when mixing fuel, motorcycles, and electrical things, without a bonifide company name to.go to in the event of... some scenario if there is a failure.
Ride safe.
Ok,
I only asked because both Relian and Woljay, come up goose eggs when I search for them as a valve manufacturer...
Sorry to have discomforted ya, but I tend to be a bit aprehensive when mixing fuel, motorcycles, and electrical things, without a bonifide company name to.go to in the event of... some scenario if there is a failure.
Ride safe.
MAN OF BLUES said:
MAN OF BLUES said:
Richard, you have been around here for about as long as I have, and just about as big a pain in the ass as me. Why don't you turn this project into a plug and play for the C10. I am finished with this, but I will give you all the help I can, and all the info I have. The reason I am willing to help you with this is I know how well it works, and I also know the C10 needs this mod. I hoped I made it very clear that there are several other benefits you can get from this mod. If you look at the way these solenoid valves are designed, you will see that the electronic components have been sealed in a metal can and are sealed very well. I am not sure this valve is advertised as a non-arking device, but they sure look like it to me. You find these all over in gas plants and refineries. If you purchase this valve from Amazon and find it does not meet the spec. as stated in the ad, Amazon will give your money back in the form of a refund along with any shipping costs.
https://www.amazon.com/RELIAN-Electric-Replacement-Pipelines-Applications/dp/B01FU3Y4VW/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_2?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1501720153&sr=1-2-fkmr0&keywords=2w16010+12v+solenoid+valve+3%2F8
Rich, the part # on this valve tell you that it is 2 watts with a 16mm orifice, and 10mm pipe threads (thus 2w16010). And if you don't get that, they sent you the wrong valve. Solenoid valves are a bit like car batteries, there are only a few manufactures. But, if you were willing to buy enough batteries, I bet you could get your name put on one, and if you buy enough solenoid valves you can have your name on one as well. You might want to call it SPARKEY. If that gives you some concern, get a valve that is ANSI approved. It's a bit overkill in this case, but to each his own. https://www.google.com/search?q=ANSI+approved+solenoid+valve&rlz=1CAACAG_enUS704US712&oq=ANSI+&aqs=chrome.2.69i59j69i57j69i59j0l3.8423j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Rich, were you not the one that used to make curb finders for the Connie? This project would be a lot more fun and you could get to know another A-HOLE. Hell, you might even take a liking to me. I am just saying.....
JD
m in sc
Street Cruiser
all one would have to do is a controlled timed flow test between the stock petcock and the lifting valve. i'm not seeing any Cv or gpm ratings mentioned, but this is also what i do for a living now (actuation/valving/automation) that's the sure-fire way to know if it flows enough. 
as long as the flow is equal or greater than the petcock, will be ok. has anybody actually flow tested these things? also, it can be located under the seat, doesnt matter, as long as its below the fuel level in the tank. that being the case, you can run a bigger valve to get the orifice you need for ideal flow and just neck up and down for the lines. my .02
as long as the flow is equal or greater than the petcock, will be ok. has anybody actually flow tested these things? also, it can be located under the seat, doesnt matter, as long as its below the fuel level in the tank. that being the case, you can run a bigger valve to get the orifice you need for ideal flow and just neck up and down for the lines. my .02
Mettler1
Sport Tourer
Let's see!!
OEM petcock ( on my second one in 23 yrs), clean fuel system and overflow tubes. The real clunker is the float needle that gets stuck open. IF you don't have overflow tubes you may not know if a float needle is open and fuel is filling your cyl. Hit the starter button with raw gas in the cyl. and "BANG" !!! A BENT ROD! DESTROYED ENGINE!! :'(
Get some overflow tubes to at least warn you of the problem. May bum you out to see gas on the ground but at least you know you have a problem!!
Let's not get too complicated trying to fix a simple thing. My fuel system has never failed : but IF I see fuel on the floor or ground I KNOW I have an open float needle and a bad petcock. "DON'T TOUCH THE DAMN STARTER BUTTON!!!!
OEM petcock ( on my second one in 23 yrs), clean fuel system and overflow tubes. The real clunker is the float needle that gets stuck open. IF you don't have overflow tubes you may not know if a float needle is open and fuel is filling your cyl. Hit the starter button with raw gas in the cyl. and "BANG" !!! A BENT ROD! DESTROYED ENGINE!! :'(
Get some overflow tubes to at least warn you of the problem. May bum you out to see gas on the ground but at least you know you have a problem!!
Let's not get too complicated trying to fix a simple thing. My fuel system has never failed :
but IF I see fuel on the floor or ground I KNOW I have an open float needle and a bad petcock. "DON'T TOUCH THE DAMN STARTER BUTTON!!!!
m in sc
Street Cruiser
i think the consensus is yes, over flow tubes will remove the riskl, thats been established. however, there are other and additional options, trying to be open minded here to other options.
personally, i like the manual valve, i'm used to them. i'll add tubes later. but i never assume the vacuum petcock will work properly all the time. ive had too many bikes have them fail on me. plan for the crash, not the ride. i mean, in 25 years of riding i crashed once. but i planned for it every ride by putting a helmet on. and, it saved my life. a tiny flake of rust on the o-ring on the diaphragm plunger is all it takes to crash the system. and, fwiw, i have seen bikes with vent tubes still hydrolock. the h1 i was referring to filled the LH cyl on the sidestand and blew the crankseal out. super rare, but happens.
from an engineering point of view, i like the electro-petcock.. my 74 moto-morini actually had one from the factory.
personally, i like the manual valve, i'm used to them. i'll add tubes later. but i never assume the vacuum petcock will work properly all the time. ive had too many bikes have them fail on me. plan for the crash, not the ride. i mean, in 25 years of riding i crashed once. but i planned for it every ride by putting a helmet on. and, it saved my life. a tiny flake of rust on the o-ring on the diaphragm plunger is all it takes to crash the system. and, fwiw, i have seen bikes with vent tubes still hydrolock. the h1 i was referring to filled the LH cyl on the sidestand and blew the crankseal out. super rare, but happens.
from an engineering point of view, i like the electro-petcock.. my 74 moto-morini actually had one from the factory.
I really want to back out of this nicely, without p/o ing anyone else off, because of the time I spent trying to find an industry rated and certified for use with gasoline, solenoid, with an orifice larger than 1/4"... to which after a hundred or so hours, I could not do, well, unless I wanted a valve the size of a brick, that had 1"+ threads, that cost a couple hundred....like $400+ dollars.
When I say rated, I mean API, UL, CE, and ANSI.
An un rated valve, manufactured in the USA (not China), and holding ratings and sold as such isn't an option for me. And a foriegn valve, with no ratings?
I wouldn't use it if it were free.
Now, I fully understand how this solenoid works... I also understand the coil that operates it. I also know that while the valve is "open" there is always a current draw on the coil, its inherent to its operation, and is actually the most common complaint about 2 way solenoids in systems... they always eat powernwhennoperating. Not a lot of power, but just the same... and that generates "heat", no getting around it... and mind you, the thermal rise may be minimal, and not a concern.. which it isn't...
The concern is, the two stranded wire leads that enter the canister, and attache to the fine coil wires which are wound on the bobbin...
Without a rating, you have no idea, unless you take it apart, how they are attached...
I've seen them soldered and covered in shrink tube, crimped together with ferrules, equipped with quick disconnect plugs and sockets, all sorts of means of wire bonding. The best quality products actuall bod these wires and "re-dip" in the potting compound, to prevent wire fractures at the joint.
The el cheapo ones, the $25 ones, commonly are the crimp and shrink tube ones, with the wires unsupported...
I can't count the number of this type I have replaced on machinery in the places I've worked, when they were subject to constant vibration and jolting slams, generated by the machines, punch press gripper circuits, clamping devices, location devices on agressive machinery..mostly all were 2way units, at 24-120vdc,
And most of those were only pneumatic air valves...
I won't spend any money on buying one for "evaluation", even tho the ad says "ok for fuel" because that's Amazon speaking...and they won't disclose the manufacturer.. I can believe its rated for air, and water, but when they get to the "gas" statement, it needs specifications, true manufacturers tell you "what gasses" whether they are "inert", like helium, carbon dioxide, etc... then the rating changes, "natural gas, and LP gas" are different, and require certs.. then you get to "oil".. again,... "light oils" refer to low risk,nlike some hydraulic fluids, and mineral oils.... no big deal, but jump to "fuel oil" and its a high.standard to meet, price on a rated valve is well over $100, and climbs rapidly... "gasoline" is a whole new ballgame... do a.search, a real search, and find manufacturers with "gasoline rated valves", not amazon rated valves...
Start with the industry standards like ASCO /Emmerson
Sorry for the rating thing,. Its just been a part of my employment necessity, as a los of life or property, in a product I designed, was not an acceptable option.
To this day,.I.still feel bad for the engineer that said. "Don't launch that space shuttle.... those rings weren't rated for that low temperature..."
Who finally ended up taking his own life, because of the gult he had when his "higher ups" forced him to back off. Sad.
Sorry, I had to correct that, I thought he killed himself, he didn't...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Boisjoly
When I say rated, I mean API, UL, CE, and ANSI.
An un rated valve, manufactured in the USA (not China), and holding ratings and sold as such isn't an option for me. And a foriegn valve, with no ratings?
I wouldn't use it if it were free.
Now, I fully understand how this solenoid works... I also understand the coil that operates it. I also know that while the valve is "open" there is always a current draw on the coil, its inherent to its operation, and is actually the most common complaint about 2 way solenoids in systems... they always eat powernwhennoperating. Not a lot of power, but just the same... and that generates "heat", no getting around it... and mind you, the thermal rise may be minimal, and not a concern.. which it isn't...
The concern is, the two stranded wire leads that enter the canister, and attache to the fine coil wires which are wound on the bobbin...
Without a rating, you have no idea, unless you take it apart, how they are attached...
I've seen them soldered and covered in shrink tube, crimped together with ferrules, equipped with quick disconnect plugs and sockets, all sorts of means of wire bonding. The best quality products actuall bod these wires and "re-dip" in the potting compound, to prevent wire fractures at the joint.
The el cheapo ones, the $25 ones, commonly are the crimp and shrink tube ones, with the wires unsupported...
I can't count the number of this type I have replaced on machinery in the places I've worked, when they were subject to constant vibration and jolting slams, generated by the machines, punch press gripper circuits, clamping devices, location devices on agressive machinery..mostly all were 2way units, at 24-120vdc,
And most of those were only pneumatic air valves...
I won't spend any money on buying one for "evaluation", even tho the ad says "ok for fuel" because that's Amazon speaking...and they won't disclose the manufacturer.. I can believe its rated for air, and water, but when they get to the "gas" statement, it needs specifications, true manufacturers tell you "what gasses" whether they are "inert", like helium, carbon dioxide, etc... then the rating changes, "natural gas, and LP gas" are different, and require certs.. then you get to "oil".. again,... "light oils" refer to low risk,nlike some hydraulic fluids, and mineral oils.... no big deal, but jump to "fuel oil" and its a high.standard to meet, price on a rated valve is well over $100, and climbs rapidly... "gasoline" is a whole new ballgame... do a.search, a real search, and find manufacturers with "gasoline rated valves", not amazon rated valves...
Start with the industry standards like ASCO /Emmerson
Sorry for the rating thing,. Its just been a part of my employment necessity, as a los of life or property, in a product I designed, was not an acceptable option.
To this day,.I.still feel bad for the engineer that said. "Don't launch that space shuttle.... those rings weren't rated for that low temperature..."
Sorry, I had to correct that, I thought he killed himself, he didn't...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Boisjoly
Zorlac said:Mettler1 said:
I rolled em quite a bit over the last 100K with the solenoid valve and no tubes, so far so good. :nananana:
So, when you get a chance,nwould you go look at the valve, write down the manufacturers name and p/n, and also what ratings are notednon the top of the coil housing, by ratings, I ask for regulatory ratings, like UL, API etc...
MAN OF BLUES said:
and this...
Well, I just pulled out one of my failed petcocks for inspection and using a digital vernier caliper from Harbor Freight, I measured the inside diameter of the tubes feeding fuel from the gas tank, and I can say with certainty that they are in fact exactly 1/4" (or 0.2500" +/-0.0015"), so I can see where a 1/4" solenoid should be a good match.
I may try the solenoid just for fun in addition to adding my own overflow tubes when the snows arrive again next month. ;D
m in sc
Street Cruiser
rated for fuel and enough flow, looks like viton or fkm seats, both fine for fuel, and in the review states it certified ISO 9001-2000. no way is the concourse going to outflow this:
http://www.electricsolenoidvalves.com/3-8-12v-dc-electric-brass-solenoid-valve/
fwiw.. MOST valves are foreign these days. we (my company) are the guys that sell to the distributors, as an fyi. and no, this isnt one of my products, we don't typically do lifting valves..
just for consideration.
http://www.electricsolenoidvalves.com/3-8-12v-dc-electric-brass-solenoid-valve/
fwiw.. MOST valves are foreign these days. we (my company) are the guys that sell to the distributors, as an fyi. and no, this isnt one of my products, we don't typically do lifting valves..
just for consideration.
m in sc said:
Mark, you are dead on, look at it's part No. 2W-160-10-12V. Maybe you need to develop this into a plug and play system. I will make you the same offer as I did for MOB. You would be helping to keep the old girls on the road for a long time, and that is a good thing.
m in sc
Street Cruiser
JDM said:
OH CRAP its the same valve. lol.
i didnt even realize it at first, prob come out of the same factory. i know, for a FACT, we get solenoid valve coils (spool valves) made at the exact same factory as the ones that have the ce and ul listing, we order both. cost is different but they roll right. off. the. same. line. Im not saying this is exactly the case with this, but i certainly wound not be surprised.m in sc said:JDM said:
OH CRAP its the same valve. lol.
Mark, we are talking about a whole new fuel system for the Connie. I think you should take to where I could not. I will help.
See, this is why I am so critical, what you just said, is completely incorrect.m in sc said:
Having been in charge of my engineerings ISO programs, and after time and MUCH expense, we found it didn't mean squat as far as wht we manufactured or sold as a finished product... it was merely a "look at us, were ISO certified..." labeling, which has zero to do with "product quality or compliance"...
All it means is that books and files are created, and kept, waiting for anyone that wishes to take the time, may be perused and compared to the components utilized in the manufacture of that final product.. simplified, its lists of people you buy parts from, keep the name, address, dontact, and part number, along with a description however brief you want to make it, on each person you buy crap from... it is NOT a certification of quality, correct form fit or function, reliability, or responsibility of failure of a component based on anything other than it is a list of parts and vendors.
It also allow companies to keep "approved vendor and alternate parts interchange" at their whim...case in point, you buy 6 different valves, form, fit, and function typical.... 5 of those valves are UL/API/CE...ASPCA :rotflmao: certified, and cost $200 each... one valve is totally junk, costs $3.25, and has the same dimensions and characteristics.... you start out with great intentions, because you flagship product, that originally used the $200 item worked perfectly.. then, cost cutting comes along, and you swap them for the el cheapo valves... all fine and dandy... ISO could care less, its your liability... the auditors have little or no clue as to what exists in your manufactured product, just what the paperwork says, and maybe what items are on your inventory shelf...maybe.
But, if your PRODUCT was UL, CE, NEMA, or API certified, and you were granted rights to apply those certs to your product label (which is what we in industry pay big $$$$$$ to get done, because those DO mean something, and its found you swapped parts.... your company gets severly flogged, and whomever was responsible gets fired... AND you loose your certifications...$$$$$$$$$$ ..... I know this, I have submitted and had litterally a hundred products go thru various UL, ETL, CE, NEMA testing, in order for them to meet the certs, and wear the branding iron of same.
So, I kinda laugh about this ISO thing,
Its kinda like people I interviewed for positions in engineering, that right off the bat tell me they have an MBA..... :rotflmao: :rotflmao: my retort to that statement is usually, "oh, I'm really sorry about that..."
:rotflmao: :rotflmao:
m in sc
Street Cruiser
like anything, it depends on what you do with your certification. insult me all you want, but i'm well aware of the fact its a documentation process and never did i say it had anything to do with quality, just consistency . laugh all you want. this comment sums it up:
shows consistency in manufacturing to (whatever) standard is. the part of procurment would also refer to the testing we did as it was part of the procurement process. when i was running a division of Desoutter (Atlas Copco company) a few years ago, and we were audited repeatedly year after year after year, we , in our iso documents, showed suppliers items were sourced from, method (at least show we had documentation) of procurement , etc. so, if there was ever a question at hand we could show line of responsibility of fault. IF you aren't willing to have this, you're probably running a shady operation. they will typically ask for the documents papertrail all the way back though. we always did, and never even got flagged, not once. no manufacturer has any gain in supplying failing items, and those valves, in question, are all over the place. i seriously doubt they are all junk. look at the reviews on the link i posted.
ps.. show me the certs on an oem petcock please.
shows consistency in manufacturing to (whatever) standard is. the part of procurment would also refer to the testing we did as it was part of the procurement process. when i was running a division of Desoutter (Atlas Copco company) a few years ago, and we were audited repeatedly year after year after year, we , in our iso documents, showed suppliers items were sourced from, method (at least show we had documentation) of procurement , etc. so, if there was ever a question at hand we could show line of responsibility of fault. IF you aren't willing to have this, you're probably running a shady operation. they will typically ask for the documents papertrail all the way back though. we always did, and never even got flagged, not once. no manufacturer has any gain in supplying failing items, and those valves, in question, are all over the place. i seriously doubt they are all junk. look at the reviews on the link i posted.
ps.. show me the certs on an oem petcock please.
Goldfingers said:
No problem.
The topic, and some of this commentary are somewhat relevant, when suggestions are made, to utilize a part, that by everything I have seen places the liability and outcome upon the user.
I'm done with it.
Ride safe.
:s_bye2: :deadhorse: :103: :051bye: :a012:
Mettler1
Sport Tourer
I'm really happy with my fuel system and it works. But give credit to those that want build a "better" widget. If their widget doesn't work they fail they lose but gain knowledge but IF they succeed we win. Have at it guys!! :great:
I might add that if they fail to turn off the fuel valve and they DON"T have over flow tubes on the carbs and a float valve is stuck open(or left open) the gas can continue to flow into a cyl. Hit the starter and hydrolock the cyl resulting in a bent rod!! The engine is toast! At the very least get overflow tubes on the carbs!!
I might add that if they fail to turn off the fuel valve and they DON"T have over flow tubes on the carbs and a float valve is stuck open(or left open) the gas can continue to flow into a cyl. Hit the starter and hydrolock the cyl resulting in a bent rod!! The engine is toast!
At the very least get overflow tubes on the carbs!!
m in sc
Street Cruiser
as a follow up to my manual 90 degree valve, took it to Charlotte last night, all highway doing 85 most of the way. on the way back hit a back road, took it up to over 100m/h for 2 miles plus on hwy 21..... no fuel starving issues. e-bay link here: http://r.ebay.com/ksxMvn
m in sc said:
I would think there would not be any fuel starvation.
Our current C10 Petcocks have 1/4" internal diameter plumbing.
zorlac
Crotch Rocket
What if I wired the fuel solenoid to the ignition power? :Mettler1 said:I might add that if they fail to turn off the fuel valve and they DON"T have over flow tubes on the carbs and a float valve is stuck open(or left open) the gas can continue to flow into a cyl. Hit the starter and hydrolock the cyl resulting in a bent rod!! The engine is toast!
You might want to reiterate that in case someone was sleeping in the back.
Zorlac said:What if I wired the fuel solenoid to the ignition power? :Mettler1 said:I might add that if they fail to turn off the fuel valve and they DON"T have over flow tubes on the carbs and a float valve is stuck open(or left open) the gas can continue to flow into a cyl. Hit the starter and hydrolock the cyl resulting in a bent rod!! The engine is toast!
You might want to reiterate that in case someone was sleeping in the back.
The hot wire to the coil would be good. That way all you would need to do is turn off the key, and not pull the battery.
All, I got back from my trip this morning.
See you've been doing a lot of discussing.
Some got a little heated, but at least you were discussing idea's.
Everyone keep an open mind.
Why don't we agree to disagree, and keep discussing.
Remember; Crazy idea's have become some of the best fixes for the C-10.
(For instance, restricting airflow to make the bike run better)
I'm VERY comfortable that Overflow tubes Steve installed will prevent hydrolock. :great:
In my case, all I want to do is assure that the petcock can't leak gas when I store the bike in the garage.
An inline valve would do what I want, but a inline Solenoid valve would make it Au-to-ma-tic... (Cool).
In both cases, fuel flow is my main concern.
Ride safe, Ted
See you've been doing a lot of discussing.
Some got a little heated, but at least you were discussing idea's.
Everyone keep an open mind.
Why don't we agree to disagree, and keep discussing.
Remember; Crazy idea's have become some of the best fixes for the C-10.
(For instance, restricting airflow to make the bike run better)
I'm VERY comfortable that Overflow tubes Steve installed will prevent hydrolock. :great:
In my case, all I want to do is assure that the petcock can't leak gas when I store the bike in the garage.
An inline valve would do what I want, but a inline Solenoid valve would make it Au-to-ma-tic... (Cool).
In both cases, fuel flow is my main concern.
Ride safe, Ted
Sorry, can't help myself. Want to add a little..
Heck, (ya'll will all agree) when someone tells us,, "that can't work",,,
It makes us "more" determined to make it work.
Steve gave us a absolute way to save the bikes from Hydrolock. (THANK YOU,, Steve)
Let's keep discussing a way to prevent fuel leakage to the carbs.
M in SC. I need a clarification.
Harry said that the C-19 Petcock "internal" piping is 1/4". (It has 5/16" O.D. nipples I think).
Your 1/4 Nippled valve can't have a 1/4" O.D. hole thru the (1/4" O.D.) nipples. {EZ boys}
Please measure the I.D. size of the hole.
NOTE: A simple way to check for too much restriction in the C-10 is simple.
You don't have to do 100 mph runs to check the flow.
{Safer way} Open the valve only a little and see if you can make the bike starve for gas during a quick WOT accell.
If it doesn't cause a problem, close it a little and repeat.
When it becomes a problem, go home and do a flow test.
The number you get would be a baseline...
M.O.B. you made a point that the solenoid isn't properly certified.
I agree with you, but we've been modifying and installing parts on the C-10 for years that were not made for it.
ie; If it works, (we don't need no stinkin' certification)
You have more engineering back ground than most of us, help us find a simple solution.
JDM/others, on the Solenoid valve, is there any way to check flow?
If m in SC comes up with a base number, we could use it for a comparison,.
Ride safe, Ted
PS: Lets go back to the Tank venting discussion from Steve/JDM.
Many bikes are running with valves or filters in the lines and are not having flow issues.
Others bikes won't accept any (valve/filter) restriction.
Maybe; The tanks vents (which are as old as the petcocks) will end up being the Root Cause of the flow problems, "and" petcock failure's..
:confuse:
Heck, (ya'll will all agree) when someone tells us,, "that can't work",,,
It makes us "more" determined to make it work.
Steve gave us a absolute way to save the bikes from Hydrolock. (THANK YOU,, Steve)
Let's keep discussing a way to prevent fuel leakage to the carbs.
M in SC. I need a clarification.
Harry said that the C-19 Petcock "internal" piping is 1/4". (It has 5/16" O.D. nipples I think).
Your 1/4 Nippled valve can't have a 1/4" O.D. hole thru the (1/4" O.D.) nipples. {EZ boys}
Please measure the I.D. size of the hole.
NOTE: A simple way to check for too much restriction in the C-10 is simple.
You don't have to do 100 mph runs to check the flow.
{Safer way} Open the valve only a little and see if you can make the bike starve for gas during a quick WOT accell.
If it doesn't cause a problem, close it a little and repeat.
When it becomes a problem, go home and do a flow test.
The number you get would be a baseline...
M.O.B. you made a point that the solenoid isn't properly certified.
I agree with you, but we've been modifying and installing parts on the C-10 for years that were not made for it.
ie; If it works, (we don't need no stinkin' certification)
You have more engineering back ground than most of us, help us find a simple solution.
JDM/others, on the Solenoid valve, is there any way to check flow?
If m in SC comes up with a base number, we could use it for a comparison,.
Ride safe, Ted
PS: Lets go back to the Tank venting discussion from Steve/JDM.
Many bikes are running with valves or filters in the lines and are not having flow issues.
Others bikes won't accept any (valve/filter) restriction.
Maybe; The tanks vents (which are as old as the petcocks) will end up being the Root Cause of the flow problems, "and" petcock failure's..
:confuse:
I just saw this on another discussion.
I'm posting it here because it sums up my thoughts exactly.
Mucho thanks to the writer's...
1) Question everything.
Everything is a learning opportunity.
If someone tells you something in a subject you're knowledgeable about, they should be able to be scrutinized to see if they're onto something or not.
We can all learn from each other, too, but we should stay in our own lanes when it comes to giving advise.
And as far as someone who thinks out of the box, well it shouldn't be arbitrarily or summarily dismissed as illogical ramblings, because discovery starts with questioning everything and thinking outside the box.
2) I always encourage experimentation tho, and if its free... do it, and see what results..
Ride safe, Ted
I'm posting it here because it sums up my thoughts exactly.
Mucho thanks to the writer's...
1) Question everything.
Everything is a learning opportunity.
If someone tells you something in a subject you're knowledgeable about, they should be able to be scrutinized to see if they're onto something or not.
We can all learn from each other, too, but we should stay in our own lanes when it comes to giving advise.
And as far as someone who thinks out of the box, well it shouldn't be arbitrarily or summarily dismissed as illogical ramblings, because discovery starts with questioning everything and thinking outside the box.
2) I always encourage experimentation tho, and if its free... do it, and see what results..
Ride safe, Ted
Just a couple of things to add.
Fuel flow testing to see if the additional valves and filters has any affect has to be done with an almost empty tank because a full tank has higher pressure.
If you drive down the road under WOT at over a hundred with half a tank of fuel you are not testing properly. Do you testing with near or low fuel in the tank
Mine ran out of fuel even faster when I tried an electric valve because my engine is highly modified and dyno's over 100hp so it eats fuel much faster than a stock engine.
Another thing to ponder: OEM petcocks fail with a drip or maybe at most a slight dribble so you have to wait a long time for a failed OEM petcock and a leaky float valve to fill a cylinder and cause hydrolock.
A manual petcock flows full force wide open from the second it is turned on and with a leaky float valve takes 3 seconds to fill a cylinder and cause hydrolock.
This is why a manual petcock is far more dangerous than a failed OEM when you dont have OverFLow tubes.
Just get overflow tubes- then you will know if you have a leaky float valve. It wont matter if you have extra filters or electric valves or a manual petcock.
Those things cannot tell you your float valves are leaking.
Fuel flow testing to see if the additional valves and filters has any affect has to be done with an almost empty tank because a full tank has higher pressure.
If you drive down the road under WOT at over a hundred with half a tank of fuel you are not testing properly. Do you testing with near or low fuel in the tank
Mine ran out of fuel even faster when I tried an electric valve because my engine is highly modified and dyno's over 100hp so it eats fuel much faster than a stock engine.
Another thing to ponder: OEM petcocks fail with a drip or maybe at most a slight dribble so you have to wait a long time for a failed OEM petcock and a leaky float valve to fill a cylinder and cause hydrolock.
A manual petcock flows full force wide open from the second it is turned on and with a leaky float valve takes 3 seconds to fill a cylinder and cause hydrolock.
This is why a manual petcock is far more dangerous than a failed OEM when you dont have OverFLow tubes.
Just get overflow tubes- then you will know if you have a leaky float valve. It wont matter if you have extra filters or electric valves or a manual petcock.
Those things cannot tell you your float valves are leaking.
willyp
Iron Butt
Another thing to consider is that the electric solenoid valve and the stock vacuum petcock use basically the same mechanism to stop fuel from flowing when turned off. That is, a rubber needle pressed against a seat by a spring. And so any bit of rust or trash holding open the vacuum petcock is just as likely to hold open an electric solenoid valve. So maybe it's a stronger spring in the electric version, but is it strong enough to crush a rust flake?
Most aftermarket manual petcocks (well, every one I've seen), by contrast generally operate as a ball or barrel valve. You turn a cylinder inside another cylinder, and when the holes line up, fuel flows. and any rust that would get lodged in it is forced into the barrel, or the bore it turns in, and causes scoring or wear. Eventually this could lead to a leaking valve.
The only true solution is overflow tubes, good maintenance of whatever fuel shutoff device you choose, and keeping the tank as clean as possible.
Most aftermarket manual petcocks (well, every one I've seen), by contrast generally operate as a ball or barrel valve. You turn a cylinder inside another cylinder, and when the holes line up, fuel flows. and any rust that would get lodged in it is forced into the barrel, or the bore it turns in, and causes scoring or wear. Eventually this could lead to a leaking valve.
The only true solution is overflow tubes, good maintenance of whatever fuel shutoff device you choose, and keeping the tank as clean as possible.
WillyP said:
Your logic extends to the vacuum shut off valve. Same possible failure mode.
There's just no winning, is there? At some point, you have to do maintenance and install overflow tubes.
Zorlac said:
Zorlac, has it only been 9 yrs that you have been running the solenoid valve? If that is the case, I have only been screwing with the valves for about 10 yrs. Maybe I am not as hard headed as I thought. I was thinking I had been farting with the solenoid valve for about 15yrs. It is hell getting old and set in your ways. OH WELL what were we talking about?
JD
m in sc
Street Cruiser
true. however full port doesn't nec mean 1/4" id. it means the size for the id is maintained all the way thru the valve, doesn't reduce at the ball. the id is 0.19.. yields a flow area of 0.0284 sq in .
the requirement for the motor, assuming there are 2.5mm id needle seats is 2.5 mm ( .0984" sq in area is .0076 x 4 = .0304 total max flow area). That's assuming the motor is using all the flow thru the needle seat. and that's some huge main jets to do this..!! so unless the motor is running at over 90% of what all 4 needle seats will flow at the same time..... which isn't the case.... it wont starve with that valve. mine sure doesn't.
Like said, its a low tech cheap easy-to-do fix and alternative.
Sooooo,
Assuming the actual fitting has barbs on the inlet/outlet of 1/4" for the hose, and the wall thickness thru that barbed section is let's use .045", even tho it looks pretty thick...in the photo. The THAT resulting I.D. is now the restriction.. both on inlet, and outlet...
And that resulting area works out to be, with a .160" diameter, or .080" radius.... .0201 sq in....
Which if used with your estimate on the needle valve seats areas total... seems to be a flow of about 66%.
Whatever works tho. We can toss facts and figures around, and as long as it works for someone, its fine. :great:
I'm all confused now, I can't remember what the fuel line I.d. really is... :rotflmao:
Assuming the actual fitting has barbs on the inlet/outlet of 1/4" for the hose, and the wall thickness thru that barbed section is let's use .045", even tho it looks pretty thick...in the photo. The THAT resulting I.D. is now the restriction.. both on inlet, and outlet...
And that resulting area works out to be, with a .160" diameter, or .080" radius.... .0201 sq in....
Which if used with your estimate on the needle valve seats areas total... seems to be a flow of about 66%.
Whatever works tho. We can toss facts and figures around, and as long as it works for someone, its fine. :great:
I'm all confused now, I can't remember what the fuel line I.d. really is... :rotflmao:
m in sc
Street Cruiser
the id is 0.19" , i did actually measure it. yes, it works. i already did the math worst case situation above. The reality of the max requirement is = or > than the flow capacity of ( the main and pilot jets per carb, which will be less than the float needle seat per carb) x4. That's just the way it works on a gravity feed system. even if it had a one inch feed pipe ahead of it. :rotflmao:
m in sc, I kinda question your statement?
The reality of the max requirement is = or > than the flow capacity of ( the main and pilot jets per carb, which will be less than the float needle seat per carb) x4. That's just the way it works on a gravity feed system.
I agree that flow thru the float needle seat per carb is gravity feed. But the Jetts have a vacuum on the back side of the jett.
I would think that makes that flow thru the main jets, a pressure feed? (approx. 14.7 psi)
MOB: I think the fuel line ID is about 5/16".
But the size of the fuel line is not the fuel restriction.
The limiting diameter is inside the petcock, or (if smaller) inside an add-on valve.
Harry sed the port size in the stock petcock is 1/4".
That surprise's me a little.
I thought the orifice size in the petcock (at the selector valve itself) was smaller than that.
Guess I'll have to open my spare petcock and check Harry's dimensions..
The point is; These guys have successfully used various valves to stop fuel flow for multiple years..
So, we can't say their idea's didn't work.
I guess it's possible that they haven't rode long and hard e'nuff for fuel restriction to be a problem?
But, I suspect they've thrashed their bike's {at some point} to check things out.
Again; I'm not interested in using a {additional} valve for preventing hydrolock.
That's already solved with the overflow tubes.
I'm only looking for a way to stop petcock leakage while stored.
I'll add that if you stop petcock leakage, hydrolock is far less likely.
Ride safe, Ted
The reality of the max requirement is = or > than the flow capacity of ( the main and pilot jets per carb, which will be less than the float needle seat per carb) x4. That's just the way it works on a gravity feed system.
I agree that flow thru the float needle seat per carb is gravity feed. But the Jetts have a vacuum on the back side of the jett.
I would think that makes that flow thru the main jets, a pressure feed? (approx. 14.7 psi)
MOB: I think the fuel line ID is about 5/16".
But the size of the fuel line is not the fuel restriction.
The limiting diameter is inside the petcock, or (if smaller) inside an add-on valve.
Harry sed the port size in the stock petcock is 1/4".
That surprise's me a little.
I thought the orifice size in the petcock (at the selector valve itself) was smaller than that.
Guess I'll have to open my spare petcock and check Harry's dimensions..
The point is; These guys have successfully used various valves to stop fuel flow for multiple years..
So, we can't say their idea's didn't work.
I guess it's possible that they haven't rode long and hard e'nuff for fuel restriction to be a problem?
But, I suspect they've thrashed their bike's {at some point} to check things out.
Again; I'm not interested in using a {additional} valve for preventing hydrolock.
That's already solved with the overflow tubes.
I'm only looking for a way to stop petcock leakage while stored.
I'll add that if you stop petcock leakage, hydrolock is far less likely.
Ride safe, Ted
Yeah Ted... that's why I implied, jokingly, about the fuel line size... because its 5/16"..... and kinda throws off the 1/4" barbed fitting theory in my mind.
I just figured "let it flow.." and didn't say anything. :rotflmao:
Liquids flowing via gravity, thru a circuit, reduce in flow and increase in pressure when the encounter a reduction in cross section.
The opposite occurs when a smaller diameter turns into a larger diameter, flow increases and pressure reduces.
When this occurs in multiples in the same circuit, large to small to large to small to large again, the effect, especially if ocurring in a fairly short length of circuit, wreaks havoc on calculations. Just mentioning that.
I do agree that "if it works for someone, its fine".... for the person its working for. :great:
Edit...darned spell check changes words to other words... but never corrects my poor spelling...heheheh
I just figured "let it flow.." and didn't say anything. :rotflmao:
Liquids flowing via gravity, thru a circuit, reduce in flow and increase in pressure when the encounter a reduction in cross section.
The opposite occurs when a smaller diameter turns into a larger diameter, flow increases and pressure reduces.
When this occurs in multiples in the same circuit, large to small to large to small to large again, the effect, especially if ocurring in a fairly short length of circuit, wreaks havoc on calculations. Just mentioning that.
I do agree that "if it works for someone, its fine".... for the person its working for. :great:
Edit...darned spell check changes words to other words... but never corrects my poor spelling...heheheh
m in sc
Street Cruiser
basically, yes, you are right... i didn't want to get too deep into it, but.... i have to size this stuff with my 2-strokes all the time. its not pressure feed, but pulled through by a pressure drop. still... the point being is it will never exceed the the ability of the needle seats to flow in a gravity situation. which is being pushed by a column of fluid above it. (there is no pressure increase here.. column height is column height) the main jets can not exceed this. If they do, you need to upsize the needles and seats, have had to do this on some very high hp setups on the old stuff. (up to 3mm). this is why i didn't bother with giving diameters of the jets, which is usually in stock applications about 45-50% of the flow provided by the needle and seat at max. (keihin and mikuni follow this general rule of thumb when sizing).
please, keep in mind, this is NOT an argument against vent over flows or the electric solenoid.
please, keep in mind, this is NOT an argument against vent over flows or the electric solenoid.
zorlac
Crotch Rocket
I have to question all the flow rate theories, at least on my C10.
This morning on the way to work traffic dictated a brief "well over the Ton" stint. >
I had forgotten that that I needed gas, less that 5mi later I filled the tank with 6.7G that's less than a gallon left and I didn't feel any fuel starvation during my rapid forward progress. :nananana:
This morning on the way to work traffic dictated a brief "well over the Ton" stint. >
I had forgotten that that I needed gas, less that 5mi later I filled the tank with 6.7G that's less than a gallon left and I didn't feel any fuel starvation during my rapid forward progress. :nananana:
Mettler1
Sport Tourer
Zorlac said:I have to question all the flow rate theories, at least on my C10.
This morning on the way to work traffic dictated a brief "well over the Ton" stint. >
I had forgotten that that I needed gas, less that 5mi later I filled the tank with 6.7G that's less than a gallon left and I didn't feel any fuel starvation during my rapid forward progress. :nananana:
AAAAH!! Just TOO much fun!! :great: :great:
Zorlac said:I have to question all the flow rate theories, at least on my C10.
This morning on the way to work traffic dictated a brief "well over the Ton" stint. >
I had forgotten that that I needed gas, less that 5mi later I filled the tank with 6.7G that's less than a gallon left and I didn't feel any fuel starvation during my rapid forward progress. :nananana:
And the question is??? ;D
It's really quite simple....Mcfly said:Zorlac said:I have to question all the flow rate theories, at least on my C10.
This morning on the way to work traffic dictated a brief "well over the Ton" stint. >
I had forgotten that that I needed gas, less that 5mi later I filled the tank with 6.7G that's less than a gallon left and I didn't feel any fuel starvation during my rapid forward progress. :nananana:
And the question is??? ;D
Look carefully. I see a mistake in the first part of his equation.
First big box, right side, on the 3rd row.
Ride safe, Ted
First big box, right side, on the 3rd row.
Ride safe, Ted
Naw, it's neither of the 2 options you mentioned.
It's option #3; "I lie"!!
Ride safe, Ted
It's option #3; "I lie"!!
Ride safe, Ted
Shhhhh, He did forget to carry the 1. :67:
But, don't tell Mettler.
He thinks I lied..
Bekuz, I lied, when I sed,, "I lied".. <sneaky grin> :19:
Ride safe, Ted
But, don't tell Mettler.
He thinks I lied..
Bekuz, I lied, when I sed,, "I lied".. <sneaky grin> :19:
Ride safe, Ted
Yupp, I'm full of it. {Wizdom}
Ride safe, Ted
Ride safe, Ted