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oil light revisited
- Thread starter Ron Moss
- Start date
Hi Ron; If your sure that the oil is at the top of the site glass when its on the center stand and level you do have a problem. You probably will not like my suggestion, but here goes, others may have a better or other ideas... I suspect that either the pickup screen is blocked or the pickup has become detached from the oil feed pipe. its a bit of a funky setup. The bad news is to get to this, you have to drop the oil pan cover, which entails removing the radiator and exhaust headers. You can do it without removing them but its a real PITA and takes almost as long. The other possibility is the oil pump is sick, but my bet would be its the pickup. In a few days I'll have the head and sump pan off InCOGnito II and I may have some other ideas. Feel free to call me it it helps. 
Colin Prior COG IT Director Lake Forest Park WA COG#7767 AMA#1081764 ROK#20000617
Colin Prior COG IT Director Lake Forest Park WA COG#7767 AMA#1081764 ROK#20000617
I am sure this isn
I concur with the other opinions and e-mailed Ron as such. A few clarifications: 1) The oil cooler is not thermostatically controlled, oil is pumped through the cooler whenever the engine is running. 2) Any fault of the oil cooler circuit should have no effect on the engine supply circuit. They are completely independent (except for the mechanical drive gear that couples to the trochoid rotor shaft). I think the main sump as has been suggested is good place to start. In any case, surgery is indeed required and a physical investigation as to the source of the problem needs to take place at this point. JMHO Dan
Any fault of the oil cooler circuit should have no effect on the engine supply circuit. They are completely independent (except for the mechanical drive gear that couples to the trochoid rotor shaft). Well, yes and no. Yes, they are completely independant circuits. However, the oil cooler circuit is the main route of transporting oil used by the engine to the scavange sump. Only the transmission drips directly into the scavenge sump. The engine oil collects in the balancer sump. Theoretically, if the oil cooler is clogged in some way, when the engine is running the oil backs up in the balancer sump and the level in the scavange sump is low. When the engine is off, everything slowly oozes back through the various orificies and baffles and is at the normal level. That said, this is unlikely. However, when trouble shooting, one has to weigh between the likliness of a scenario and the ease of verifying it. Verifying the oil pickup in the scavenge sump is hosed, while more likely, is also very hard to do. Verifying the oil cooler circuit is clogged is, while less likley, relatively easy to do. All things considered, I'd recommend yanking the valve cover and having a look around first.
sorry, that's not how I see it. there are 2 sides to the oil pump, a high pressure and lower pressure side. The high pressure side feeds the engine bearings, etc, and the low pressure side simply pumps the oil through the cooler. as such, I think the cooler has nothing to do with this. Colin may be correct, but to me, this seems more like the pressure relief / bypass piston sticking in the bore. if it sticks open, pressure drops like a rock. There may be other issues at play here, and the only thing I can say for certain is this - revving an engine with no oil pressure to 10000 rpm is not a good thing to do. Steve
Hey, I only know what I read. The shop manual shows the cooler circuit starts in the front engine sump, or balancer sump, gets sucked up into the pump, out through the oil cooler, and returns it to the main sump, where the high pressure side of the pump picks it up, and pumps it to the engine. Ron is clearly having starvation issues upon a hard stop. SOMETHING is causing the level in the main sump to stay low. Yes, I agree the LIKELY scenario is something clogging the return from the head. But, if the entire system is designed with a constant flow from the balancer sump to the main sump via the cooler in mind, and if the cooler is clogged, it will affect the oil level, especially upon high demand. Simple cause and effect. You have to remember there are not only two circuits but two sumps. It is soooo easy to check: warm up the bike thoroughly, and feel oil cooler. If it is hot to the touch (not just warm) then you are good to go. It's something else, like the aforementioned return circuit. If it is cool, well, there ya are.
Hey, I only know what I build! Here's the deal on oil routing. there is one pan, with baffles in it. The oil from the head drains back down the cam chain channel, so there's no way to restrict it. Not like a small drainback hole. As far as the sumps, the oil pressure sump area is only the volume basically where the second drain plug is located. So if you drain the back sump, the oil left when you drain the front sump is the volume it can hold, any more than that and it spills over the baffle into the main sump. so again, I don't see any way this can be head drainback, nor have anything to do with the cooler. I still think it's a pressure relief piston issue, or maybe a clogged pickup, which is doubtful. i have seen clogged pickups, and they'll usually flow enough for lower rpms, and starve when revv'ed, This engine GAINED it's pressure when revv'ed, whih again leads me to the relief piston. Steve
I defer to your experience Steve. However, I am still trying to viualize a scenario where "sloshing," which is the case here, causes a drop in pressure. Ron states everything is fine until he makes a hard stop. The typical scenario in this situation is that the pickup becomes uncovered, thus starving the pump. The revving he did to gain the pressure COULD coincide when the oil finally flowed back through (or over) the baffle. If it was a relief valve, wouldn't it be expected to show low oil pressure all the time? Or is the orientation of the relief valve such that a sudden stop could pop it open?
Like all of us, I'm strictly guessing. Generally, relief valves that blow open will just dump the volume to the pan, or recycle it within the pump. i'm thinking it's sticking open prior to the starvation, and then with the sudden stop and the oil slosh, it pulls less volume and results in no pressure. Or Colim may be right, somehow maybe the puckup is dislodged, and the volume pulled is only coming from the top of the oil volume. either way, i only think a visual inspection is gonna clear the issue up. I'd like to know the outcome - Steve
norm9688
Crotch Rocket
I had a Datsun 310 that would drop oil pressure on right turns and it would return on left turns. The weld on the tube to the pick-up screen had cracked and the tube would move and open a hole in the line. Looking at the pictures that Colin has posted I think it could be a damaged or loose pick up. Its knocked loose on the hard stop by the oil movement. Just a theory though till some tear down is done. Is there even a bolt to hold the pickup or is it a push in fit held in place by the oil pan?? CT AAD COG #7011-A 2003 Concours-Mary Ann 1995 Honda Nighthawk 750 wifes
Its a push fit, if the O-ring is good its pretty secure, there is no bolt of any kind, just the O-ring and the clip onto the oil-pipe The second pickup is equally umm insecure. That's why I suggest dropping the oil pan to take a look. The good news is the oil pump and everything else is in the same location. CP. Colin Prior COG IT Director Lake Forest Park WA COG#7767 AMA#1081764 ROK#20000617
Ron Moss
Moped
That's why I suggest dropping the oil pan to take a look. The good news is the oil pump and everything else is in the same location. CP. Colin, thanks for the photos. I'm setting the lift up, making room in my shop to begin the removal of the oil pan. I will keep everyone informed and take photos of everything. I think this is a puzzle everyone would like to solve. I know it's driving me nuts. I have a friend who has over 40 years working on Japans motorcycle and I think he is the best I have ever worked with. When I explained to him what the bike was doing he said he had never had or worked on the problem. What he did think was that the bike was some how loosing pickup to the oil pump as you and others have thought. His advice ("pull the oil pan and have a look around") OK, I"m gonna do it. Details to follow.
The fact that you have a lift makes the job way easier. Couple of bits of advice: Once you have removed all the bolts be real gentle dropping the pan, it would be easy to disturb the pickup and nozzle. Hence you will never know it they were miss-aligned. The nozzle it particularly poor in it's design as it has no o-ring. The oil pipe o-rings will make the pan a little stiff to remove but once you break the seal on the gasket you will be able to gently pry the oil pan down. As you will see there is also an oil screen on the pan as well. Good luck! Look forward to hearing the news. Colin Prior COG IT Director Lake Forest Park WA COG#7767 AMA#1081764 ROK#20000617
Colin Prior COG IT Director Lake Forest Park WA COG#7767 AMA#1081764 ROK#20000617
The world awaits.......
Rich, once again to echo Steve (he and I have crawled all over these engines as has Colin and have detailed knowledge of the oil delivery systems). The oil cooler system is entirely independent of the engine supply system and is not associated by function in any way except the common drive to the trochoid lobed shaft as I mentioned earlier. Also - Ron, In the picture Colin shows, the plastic sump pickup rests on the inside floor of the pan by those three legs shown protruding above the screen. As such, unless it was assembled horribly incorrectly from the factory, it is likely solidly in place. But as Colin has mentioned, be very, very careful upon disassembly so that your forensic investigation won't get compromised. JMHO Dan
Rich, once again to echo Steve .... HEY! OK, OK. Peace! As I said, I defer to those of you that have seen the inside this engine way more than I have. Nobody was responding to Ron's requests so I sat down with the shop manual and did some "desktop diagnostics." Now that you guys are involved and the entire COGland is waiting for Ron's findings, I'm a happy camper and I'll stand aside and watch. I appreciate the three of you chiming in and offering some good advice. That said, no one has yet answred my question of how sloshing can occur. What can cause a normal oil level when static, but under hard deceleration the pump sucks air? The only two choices I can see are:
- Something has happened to the pickup to cause it to be sitting higher than normal (or a leak in the pickup that is under the oil level at static but is exposed when the oil sloshes forward).
- Something is keeping the oil the crank area (the balancer sump) from getting back to the main sump in a timely fashion.
just as an aside - the 1200 vmax had a serious oiling problem that occurred when the engine got some miles on it, and a rubber bumper under an oil line that squeezed the line upward with pan pressure would shrink abit and dislodge, then the oil line would dislodge the o ring on on end, and spew all the life blood everywhere but to the crank. Catastrophic failure resulted. i know, it happened to my vmax. I'm not suggesting that's what happenned here, but it could be something like an o ring on the pick-up split, something goofy like that. Let's seeeeeeeeeeeee ... steve
slybonesjesse
Sport Tourer
That said, no one has yet answred my question of how sloshing can occur. What can cause a normal oil level when static, but under hard deceleration the pump sucks air? The only two choices I can see are: You mean it can't be because of the energy created related to hard braking throwing all the oil forward so the pump sucks air? -- I think of all the stuff that flies off the seat of my car/truck when I brake hard. Throwing everything on the floor. Sticking with Steve's count of the pan with baffles, it would seem that all the oil would be allowed to spill over those baffles and get flung forward pooling in the front sump. I think plenty of people have seen a momentary oil light under hard braking. But the oil pressure always returns as soon as that energy is gone. I believe the question is why the oil light does not go out after the energy is dissapated allowing the oil level in the rear sump to return to normal. I believe you get this. I guess I dont understand the comment. I see how sloshing occurs, and could create a momentary oil light. Expecially if the person had a low oil level ( not the case here ). I dont see how sloshing causes a perminent oil light, or one that lasts for a significatly long time. 2003 Concours, 51K COG #6953 IBA 28004 http://mysite.verizon.net/slybones/Concours/connieMain.htm
Slybones; My understanding is that due to the shape/layout of the head, hard deceleration causes pooling of oil in the head (note that the volume under the rocker cover is significant). Supposedly the pooling would then cause the level in the sump to drop combined with the fact the oil will move forward in the pan, causing the pickup to suck air. I believe the first journals to starve is the #3 which was the one one InCOGnito that was scored most likely by the PO. Hence its a good idea for this not to happen. Colin Prior COG IT Director Lake Forest Park WA COG#7767 AMA#1081764 ROK#20000617
Colin Prior COG IT Director Lake Forest Park WA COG#7767 AMA#1081764 ROK#20000617
colin - I think that pooling is more common to the zx11/zrx head, not so much ours. Same as the #3 rod failure. Generally those engines are getting beat on much more than the average connie engine. Steve
I get pooling in the head a lot, especially after an evening of Marguritas.
I think that pooling is more common to the zx11/zrx head, not so much ours. Same as the #3 rod failure [/quote Ok so how about we figure out what is going on here then. Its seems that the oil light coming on with prolonged breaking when the oil is level is within limits or at the lower end of the sight-glass is a pretty common occurrence, or is it another Connie myth?
idunno, fortunately I've never seen it. Steve
actually, nobody has asked where the pressure guage that Ron added was tapped into. so where is it tapped into? Steve
Ron Moss
Moped
so where is it tapped into? Steve I used a mechanical gauge (tube to the gauge) I tapped into the upper oil gallery as per Dan Bergman's instructions. I think this would limit the chance of a bad or flaky sensor and it allowed me to keep the oil light also. Dan has posted a photo on the other forum.
in the bolt end of the main oil gallery, iirc. a very ggod spot to get a reliable reading . It's gonna be interesting, that's for sure. Steve
slybonesjesse
Sport Tourer
Its seems that the oil light coming on with prolonged breaking when the oil is level is within limits or at the lower end of the sight-glass is a pretty common occurrence, or is it another Connie myth? Well I dont know how common it is, but I think it rates a slight bit higher than a myth. I have seen it. Albeit only a few times. When practicing panic stops. I am not sure I have seen it under normal traffic hard braking scenario's. Never paid attention I was too busy giving hand signals. I am pretty sure in another thread Ron had related to this problem, some of the first suggestions were to check oil level. That oil light under hard braking was not too uncommon with lower oil levels. -- I am pretty sure I recall the thread progressing into oil change habits and the fact some people only use "3 qts" versus "3 liters", which is more than 3 qts. And then the manuals says 3.2L with filter change so its really more like 3.5qts not 3 like many dump it. And I believe one person even said they use 4 qts for this reason. In short I dont believe the discussion went that way because its a myth. But I dont figure it happens all that often as the majority of us are not doing panic stops. Just a wild ass guess, but if Ron is riding in such a way as to need to perform panic stops this often, maybe he needs a chill pill of some kind. Assuming thats not the case, the frequency and persistance of his oil light problem are probably unrelated to pooling. 2003 Concours, 51K COG #6953 IBA 28004 http://mysite.verizon.net/slybones/Concours/connieMain.htm
A few things I know. The pick up for the main sump cannot fall out, it will bottom on the pan before it does. Some pickups are metal (early vintage models) most are plastic. If the plastic pick up splits/cracks then it will suck air as soon as the oil level drops below the crack./split. Based on symptoms it can be a few things. 1. stuck pressure relief valve (or broken spring) 2. Pump pick up is sucking air (bad oring, crack ect) 3. Sheared pin in the pump that drives the gear rotor (foreign object jams the pump and the pin shears, now the rotor is slipping a bit on the shaft) 4. The bolts the secure the pump to the case are lose 5. Cracked pump housing (foregin object damage) 6. Grossly excessive bearing clearances. 7. Cracked/faulty sealing of the H tube IIRC cylinders 3/4, balancer is scavenged via low pressure side of the pump and routed to the oil cooler then back to the mail sump. Drop the pain, if all looks well pull the pump, if all looks well split the cases... RK
I forgot to ask (maybe it was stated already) When was the last oil change done? Did it have this problem before? I have a suspicion that the bikes with the oil lite under braking may have problems with the pump pickup (possibly others) or the o-ring that seals it. Plastic can distort/crack. rk
Ron Moss
Moped
I forgot to ask (maybe it was stated already) When was the last oil change done? Did it have this problem before? I have a suspicion that the bikes with the oil lite under braking may have problems with the pump pickup (possibly others) or the o-ring that seals it. Plastic can distort/crack. rk Oil change current, less than 500 miles. Yes it had the problem before, oil light would come back on but the times got longer and longer. Am trying to get the pan down now.
Not claiming to be an expert, but looking at the installation instructions for the Bergman Engineering Spin-on Filter adapter, it looks like the filter mount adapter is connected to something inside the pan and not the pan itself. So IMO removing it will help you drop the pan itself.
Ron Moss
Moped
I have the bike ready to drop the oil pan but can not get it to drop. I want to do it carefully so I can spot any thing that might be wrong. I have Dan's oil filter adapter. Would it have to be removed to drop the pan?? I have e-mailed Dan but don't have an answer yet. Never mind I have it off, don't see anything wrong yet. Getting ready to start taking photos, stay tuned.
First off I will always defer to Steve, Dan, Colin, Rich and the vast majority of mekaniks of which tere are many here. But could this maybe have something to do the the flaky filters (fram I think) that was posted a while back? Hell a new filter is 5 bucks and 10 minutes. PS Ron where are you in MO? Respectfully Yours! Wess Heavner 2009 Hard Luck Award Winner! COG #8010 CDA #0239
Ron Moss
Moped
First off I will always defer to Steve, Dan, Colin, Rich and the vast majority of mekaniks of which tere are many here. But could this maybe have something to do the the flaky filters (fram I think) that was posted a while back? Hell a new filter is 5 bucks and 10 minutes. PS Ron where are you in MO? Springfield Done the filter thing, makes no difference.
Ron Moss
Moped
OK guys, I'm putting the Concours back together I have gone over everything, could not find anything wrong. every o-ring in place filter pickup in place and clean. No dirt/trash in oil pan. When I get it back together I will test it and if it doesn't light the oil light up I will keep riding it. If the light comes on it becomes someone else's problem. as much as I like the bike I will nor ride something I can't trust. Anyone want to buy a 2006 Concours???
Ron Moss
Moped
Really? did you pull the pump out and take it apart to be sure? Did you check the pressure bypass? If you can, grab a rod end and see how much it flops around..(#3) rk Nope, I quit, I'm to old and to busy to chase the bugs out of it. Enough is enough. If it runs, fine, if it blows up fine. I have to have something dependable not something I have to work on all the time. It's funny I bought the bike because it was one of the most dependable bikes on the road and it fit me to a T. Every body makes a lemon once in a while I got this one. Bitter ? no just disappointed.
Ron Do you have an update for us? I'm dying to know how this turns out.