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U-joint failure

R

Raycj

Big Wheel
Yesterday had a ride end prematurely when my u-joint failed. :( Since I was going at highway speed it did a good job of mangling things all the way up to snapping the drive-shaft. :(
Has anyone else ever had problems with the u-joint?
 

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I had one go out at about 165k miles. I noticed it one block from my house, at the end of a 4,6xx mile trip. No noise until then, no vibration. It had one cap broken, the needles missing from that, and clunking inside the yoke hole.

A little unnerving at the end of a vacation trip, but this bike has still not left me on the side of the road, 180k miles.
 
In all the time I've been on this site (and ZG-Fanatics before it) I can only recall one report of a failed drive shaft. And that was a snapped shaft, not the u--joint.
 
I guess I'm the "lucky" one. Ordered a replacement from eBay, from bevel gear to final spline for under $200 shipping included. The Driven Gear Holder (special Kawasaki tool) would have been that price alone if I just bought all the parts needed.
 
First time for me as well, how many miles and how old is the bike?  I just inspected my driveshaft a couple of months ago at 100K and it looks fine, I have a few spares just in case.
 
I've always been concerned about this, especially in my case with the extra horsepower. A complicating factor is the U-joint is not serviceable or individually replaceable like those on a car or truck.

You would think that Rev would have blown one of these up by now but AFAIK, he hasn't done that yet (at least he hasn't admitted such).

I replaced mine with a new one at 52,000 miles when I did the engine change (just to be safe). I did notice the U-joint was slightly "notchy" at the center point as well as slight evidence of needle bearing lubrication escaping. I wish there was a generic U-joint available that would allow us to replace it on regular intervals to prevent an eventual grenading. I did get two extra new ones from connieparts.com when he had them available so I have those in stock just in case.

I would hate to be half way across Nevada in the middle of the summer and have this happen but I also don't want to have to carry a replacement driveshaft just in case either.

Dan
 
How many miles, Ray?

My '01 with ~185k had weird vibes so I had my tech/tar guy r/r it. Sho nuff it was wearing thin.
 
I've seen one other and that was a 150K+ mile bike.
Similar problem where one of the needles disintegrated, the bearing overheated and seized.
The rider heard a very loud bang and lost all drive. Had it recovered to my place.
No real damage to the swingarm though so we fitted one of my spare shafts and he rode it home.
Last I heard it was still running fine.
 
Last summer I ordered my 50k sticker (OK, the bikes sticker). Not much more miles as we have a very early winter here.
 
Must have been a manufacturing fault then as they are sealed for life bearings.
I have a couple of drive shafts in the garage that have been sat for 5-10 years and they still move like new.
 
  After I put 6K on my new 06 C10, I disassembled the rear part of the bike to lube the splines. When I inspected the driveshaft and U-joint I found the joint moved freely one way but was binding the other way. I took the driveshaft to my dealer and they agreed it would be covered under the warranty.
  It looked like one of the O-rings sealing the needle bearings had been pinched on assembly. I had to reassemble the bike since they wouldn't just hand me a new driveshaft. Understandable since they would be responsible if I messed up on putting it back together.

            Tom Taylor COG#7173
 
mr t said:
  After I put 6K on my new 06 C10, I disassembled the rear part of the bike to lube the splines. When I inspected the driveshaft and U-joint I found the joint moved freely one way but was binding the other way. I took the driveshaft to my dealer and they agreed it would be covered under the warranty.
  It looked like one of the O-rings sealing the needle bearings had been pinched on assembly.
Click to expand...

Interesting. Seems like a driveshaft inspection would not be a bad idea on the next wheel removal.
 
Boomer said:
Must have been a manufacturing fault then as they are sealed for life bearings.
I have a couple of drive shafts in the garage that have been sat for 5-10 years and they still move like new.
Click to expand...

They are, but Spicer type U-joints have failed since they were invented. Auto U-joints on drive shafts are known life-limited items, I have replaced dozens on my cars and the autos/trucks I worked on back in the day when I was bending wrenches.

They are subjected to tremendous forces and often the working angle of the U-joint does not allow for full rotation of the needles to effectively work the lubrication. Every bit of the engine torque is transmitted through the hair-line contacts of a few needle bearings, over and over, thousands of times. The needles are not caged and they rub right next to each other. The type of lubricant used is crucial to the long term life and is often highly specialized for this application.

The repetitive back-and-forth, very limited rotation of the needles and cups are the worst environments for bearings and seals. It is a wonder they last as long as they do.

Not being able to service the U-joint (by replenishing lubrication, replacement of the seals or replacement of the joint itself) is a design flaw of this drive shaft. It should not be a requirement to replace the complete drive shaft due to U-joint issues.

Dan
 
Bergmen said:
Not being able to service the U-joint (by replenishing lubrication, replacement of the seals or replacement of the joint itself) is a design flaw of this drive shaft. It should not be a requirement to replace the complete drive shaft due to U-joint issues.
Dan
Click to expand...

Dan, isn't it possible to pull the c-clips and use a small press to remove the joint's caps for periodic cleaning/lubing?  I bought a used shaft to experiment on and pulled one of the clips before getting sidetracked on another project.  I hope to be able to maintain the original and spare shafts/joints and swap shafts on x number of tire changes.  Please confirm it's so.
 
Equito said:
Bergmen said:
Not being able to service the U-joint (by replenishing lubrication, replacement of the seals or replacement of the joint itself) is a design flaw of this drive shaft. It should not be a requirement to replace the complete drive shaft due to U-joint issues.
Dan
Click to expand...

Dan, isn't it possible to pull the c-clips and use a small press to remove the joint's caps for periodic cleaning/lubing?  I bought a used shaft to experiment on and pulled one of the clips before getting sidetracked on another project.  I hope to be able to maintain the original and spare shafts/joints and swap shafts on x number of tire changes.  Please confirm it's so.
Click to expand...

Yes, I believe this can be done. There are issues with this, though:

1) I have no idea what would be the best specialized lubricant for this. The stuff I saw leaking out of one of my driveshafts was like nothing I've seen before (feel and smell).
2) The seals would have to available for replacement and I don't know what would work.
3) In reassembling, one must be VERY careful to do two things:
    a) Bring the assembly to the exact center of the yoke (or press-in so that the C-clip just fits in the groove on the cup).
    b) Not over-press putting an end load on the pinion.

I have a driveshaft also that I want to disassemble the U-joint and inspect. I also want to try to find a generic replacement (I have a comprehensive list of all available U-joints).

Also, I have no history in servicing U-joints other than those (usually on trucks) that have zerk fittings for re-greasing. I have always replaced them since they are damaged beyond repair after symptoms appear.
 
I have replaced literally hundreds of u-joints in the automotive areas, cars, trucks and heavy trucks. In all of these applications there are replacement joints available at a minimum cost.I would find it hard to believe that the joint is not available for the driveshaft of a motorcycle. I am not saying that it would necessarily will be easy to procure, but it surely can be found somewhere. In the auto area u would press in or pound in, (with proper protection of caps/bearings), the new joint after removing the old one. Simply tapping the joint side to side after seating the retaining clips until the joint moves freely has always been the only adjustment needed to get a vibration free shaft, (assuming that the shaft was in balance before the replacement and also that the shaft did not get bent in some form or other). On a much shorter shaft, with a smaller diameter shaft and joint I would seriously doubt that this same method would not work. However, i do not know the average rpm of the shaft in this application. In auto applications the shaft speeds can be quite high, but I believe it is typically between 1500-2500 rpm at cruise. I just looked at the final ratios online for a 2012 and it looks like at 60 mph you would be at the 2000 shaft rpm in 6th. My math may be off a little bit though.

Ok so i just did a quick google search for concours u-joints and found a listing. Looks like someone has to measure the joint and order by measurements. The ujoint store online has metric joints in the 20 mm and up sizes.  Guess my assumption of availability isn't necessarily all wrong? If I am incorrect please feel free to abuse me as desired! I can take it.
Matt
 
Bergmen said:
Yes, I believe this can be done. There are issues with this, though:

1) I have no idea what would be the best specialized lubricant for this. The stuff I saw leaking out of one of my driveshafts was like nothing I've seen before (feel and smell).
2) The seals would have to available for replacement and I don't know what would work.
3) In reassembling, one must be VERY careful to do two things:
    a) Bring the assembly to the exact center of the yoke (or press-in so that the C-clip just fits in the groove on the cup).
    b) Not over-press putting an end load on the pinion.

I have a driveshaft also that I want to disassemble the U-joint and inspect. I also want to try to find a generic replacement (I have a comprehensive list of all available U-joints).

Also, I have no history in servicing U-joints other than those (usually on trucks) that have zerk fittings for re-greasing. I have always replaced them since they are damaged beyond repair after symptoms appear.
Click to expand...

Hmm.  I forgot about the need to replace seals.  Thanks for the tips re: proper reassembly.  I know that the Guzzi guys routinely dismantle their u-joints for periodic service, but don't know about their seals, replacement joints, etc.  I remain interested in what you learn about the service/replacement process.
 
mattchewn said:
Ok so i just did a quick google search for concours u-joints and found a listing. Looks like someone has to measure the joint and order by measurements. The ujoint store online has metric joints in the 20 mm and up sizes.  Guess my assumption of availability isn't necessarily all wrong? If I am incorrect please feel free to abuse me as desired! I can take it.
Matt
Click to expand...

Is this the place?:  http://www.machineservice.com/products/universal-joints/metric-universal-joints-catalog/

I understand other explorers before you have searched for the grail replacement joint and were never heard from again.  Hard to believe  Kaw would one-off a u-joint, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised.
 
The seals on the u joints are not like other oil seals, since there is no pressure behind them they do not need to be replaced before the u-joint needs replacement, if the seals are leaking grease replace the joint. If you take apart the joint and grease it properly and reinstall it without losing any needle bearings you should have a long life joint. I think I would just spring for the new joint though. Problem solved!
Matt
 
Nope the place I found was www.theujointstore.com  .  They have an assortment of metric sizes for sale in the 20-50$ range. When I do mine that is how it's gonna be done! Hopefully someone on here will post the correct measurements so I don't have to stop riding for a week while I wait on parts! How about it ZG? Have you gotten the specs yet?
Matt
 
Got the replacement drive shaft installed. Bonus was it went all the way up to the bevel gear, so it was only 4 bolts and no messing around. When I took the old one out it gave me a chance to shine a flashlight inside and all looks real nice and clean inside, that makes me happy.

Still waiting on the swing arm bearing since the parts flying around damaged the one that was in there. That part was not on eBay and has to come from Japan. Expect it next week, hopefully before mid week.
 
Not sure about the Concours, being new to me, but the Yamaha Venture from 1983-93 uses a Datsun B110 u joint, hopefully someone has spec'd out the Connie by now and found a suitable replacement? Bueler...? Bueler...?  Anyone...?
 
Bergmen said:
1) I have no idea what would be the best specialized lubricant. The stuff I saw leaking out of one of my driveshafts was like nothing I've seen before (feel and smell).
Click to expand...

Spicer recommends Chevron Ultra-Duty Grease EP for their U-joint bearing assemblies. The MSDS for this grease includes the following composition:

Highly refined mineral oil (C15 - C50)  Mixture                    65 - 80% wt/wt
Zinc dialkyldithiophosphate                68649-42-3                1 -  5% wt/wt

Still leaves 19-34% that's not listed.
 
Wayyyyyy back when doing the tech dude thing, I went thru every available supplier I could glean for exact dimensipnal and configuration for both the C10 and also the C14 (this was when the first reported C14 failure occurred). I could not find a single off shelf replacement for either bike. Mind you I have extensive backround for rooting up these parts in the raw, its kinda how I make my living... at that time, and I'm betting still, there are none. The cost of a shaft assembly vs joints and time is kinda moot, bettr off with a new shaft, especially if a bearing in the joint went south, and it was beating the shaft bore egg shaped...

Don't scrimp on those parts.
 
Mettler1 said:
  WOW!!!  I joined COG in 1992 and this is the first time I've seen that!!! ???
Click to expand...
Same here, I've seen 2 C14's with grenaded shafts, but this is the first C10 I've seen, there may have been people with worn out ones, but neever saw them post.
I've always had a spare or 2 stuck away, just in case.... best geuss on why it broke is someone did a bunch of burnouts.... :rotflmao:
In the past life ocourse.... :motonoises:
 
Wasn't the grenaded shafts on a C14 the result of a manufacturing without a clip or two and the cup/cups working themselves out? As I remember it was limited feature on the 2010's.
 
 
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