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Aftermarket headers

BruceR.

Guest
Guest
Eric, if you have the area P full already there's 2 options from Shoodaben already:  The Hammer and the Mountain Runner Premium.  Both of these should give you that ultimate power using premium gas.  For myself, I think smaller header pipes to keep the low end grunt is more important.  That's just my opinion.  Of course we all have different wants/needs in our riding so I hope your bike sets the high bar for HP .  >:D
 

connie_rider

Member
Member
Bruce, I think that is incorrect.
Steve has a special (Area P} Flash for bikes with the full area P system.

Like you, I wanted to keep my low end grunt, so I installed a {OEM 2006 ZX-14} header. It has smaller head pipes/different cylinder pairing than the Area P.
NOTE: At the time, I also wanted dual mufflers...
I'm using the Mountain Runner Premium Flash in my bike.

If the $600 headers were available when built my set up, I think I would have selected the Black Widow headers over the Delkevic because of the smaller head pipes and cylinder pairing.
  ie; To keep my low end torque

Ride safe, Ted
 

horsenuts123

Member
Member
Bruce_Reafsnider_TN said:
Eric, if you have the area P full already there's 2 options from Shoodaben already:  The Hammer and the Mountain Runner Premium.  Both of these should give you that ultimate power using premium gas.  For myself, I think smaller header pipes to keep the low end grunt is more important.  That's just my opinion.  Of course we all have different wants/needs in our riding so I hope your bike sets the high bar for HP .  >:D

I don't have the Area P yet, but I had pretty much made my mind up, until reading this last discussion...  We all want that max power at WOT near redline, but realistically I maybe do that a couple times a month.  And the Area P isn't cheap...
 

Steve in sunny Fla

Iron Butt
Industry Vendor
I'm going to give some ideas to think about. I'm NOT going to expand on it. y'all do it in your conversations, you'll get to where you need to be .

  1) area under the curve. It matters.

    2) be concise about how you ride, what you're wanting to accomplish, where you want any power gains maximized, and what you're willing to give up as compared to what another system offers.

    3) remember that it's not just an issue of RPM, it's also an issue of throttle amount... how much air is being moved through the air pump.

    4) do you really know how how / why headers work, various designs etc?

    5) Here's an example of a guy who doesn't understand, and ignores advise : claims he wants more low end grunt, and then chooses an area P full system. What's wrong with this picture?


    Steve
 

horsenuts123

Member
Member
Great points Steve.  I'm looking at dyno charts on your site and I do see a dip in the line between 4,500 and 5,500 rpm with the full system.  And, that is typically where my rpms are when I ask for more power out of her, like passing cars on the highway. 
Your charts also confirm my "butt dyno" readings that say I only get more noise over 8,000 rpm and very little increase in power.  That's what I want to fix, and it looks like the full system does that very well.  So, if I spent $600 on one of the cheaper systems, and it still only makes more noise over $8,000 rpm, I've wasted my money.  (Except for losing ~20 lbs)
So, if anyone has installed a system with the smaller head pipes I'd like to hear what the power difference was in the top end. 
To summarize:  I'm willing to lose a little on the bottom to have significant gains on top.  I just don't know if that's a function only of tube size, or mainly losing the cats.
 

BruceR.

Guest
Guest
connie_rider said:
Bruce, I think that is incorrect.
Steve has a special (Area P} Flash for bikes with the full area P system.

Like you, I wanted to keep my low end grunt, so I installed a {OEM 2006 ZX-14} header. It has smaller head pipes/different cylinder pairing than the Area P.
NOTE: At the time, I also wanted dual mufflers...
I'm using the Mountain Runner Premium Flash in my bike.

If the $600 headers were available when built my set up, I think I would have selected the Black Widow headers over the Delkevic because of the smaller head pipes and cylinder pairing.
  ie; To keep my low end torque

Ride safe, Ted

Yeah you're right about the full Area P flash.  It was in the back of my mind because for now I only have a slip on installed.  Backing out now...

 

connie_rider

Member
Member
Not an expert, but think;
Tube size is only part of how a header works.
  Tube size/length/pairing/configuration/collector design/muffler restriction all work together with (fueling and the cam) to control the power curve.
    They must all work together.

Ride safe, Ted
 

Gscott

09 C14
Member
When I bought my 09 used it had the full area P with PC 5 and auto tune, after Steve came out with his tune I waited till I thought all the bugs (if there were any) were worked out and shipped the ECU off to SISF and removed the  PC 5 and auto tune and reinstalled the secondary butterflies.  The only problem I had with the PC 5 was an occasional pop thru the exhaust under deceleration after the SISF tune this has never happened again.
Now with these new systems available I'm thinking of selling the area P and going to a system with the smaller headers for more low end power as I very seldom go over 8000 RPM (no need to) and most of the time ride two up.
Steve if you see this do you think the area P tune would work or should the ECU be updated for the exhaust swap.   
 

Steve in sunny Fla

Iron Butt
Industry Vendor
Gscott said:
When I bought my 09 used it had the full area P with PC 5 and auto tune, after Steve came out with his tune I waited till I thought all the bugs (if there were any) were worked out and shipped the ECU off to SISF and removed the  PC 5 and auto tune and reinstalled the secondary butterflies.  The only problem I had with the PC 5 was an occasional pop thru the exhaust under deceleration after the SISF tune this has never happened again.
Now with these new systems available I'm thinking of selling the area P and going to a system with the smaller headers for more low end power as I very seldom go over 8000 RPM (no need to) and most of the time ride two up.
Steve if you see this do you think the area P tune would work or should the ECU be updated for the exhaust swap. 

  Send the ecu back . BTW, selling the area P ought to get the Black Widow system paid for, or very close. The area P is still in high demand, and is the ONLY choice for those wanting max peak hp from their Concours.
 

horsenuts123

Member
Member
So, other than weight savings, is there any advantage to the BW system vs. stock?  I guess I wouldn't have people ask me if it's an electric bike anymore :)
 

chrismpero

Member
Member
Eric said:
So, other than weight savings, is there any advantage to the BW system vs. stock?  I guess I wouldn't have people ask me if it's an electric bike anymore :)

I installed it recently, for me no convertor (no heat sink), more exhaust flow overall. Looks like better quality material than stock as well.
 

mattgarr57

Bicycle
Industry Vendor
Steve in Sunny Fla said:
turbojoe78_MA said:
Steve, I've got a Delkevic mid pipe and 18" CF oval can in the garage rafters.  What would be the advantage of the Black Widow over the stock headers?

aside from weight and no cat in the header, I would say the fact that the head pipe is +3mm  and the tri-y transitions are smooth. It's going to make more power on the dyno, and be great for light throttle riding, too. Eventually I'll get it up on the dyno and we'll get the numbers. It's not going to get to area P power, but it's going to retain the low end / light throttle that the area P loses. "area under the curve" . Steve

Steve, with a full exhaust upgrade and flash, would the bike run cooler as well?  ie, breathes better?
 

strum

Member
Member
Yall I havent been on here in a while so i hope you dont mind if i jump in on this discussion.
Ive been running the Area P and Steve's Area P flash on my 16 since late last fall. 
Im a bit of a power junkie so I absolutely love the big top end power I get and I certainly dig the unique sound the AP gives me.
Steve is spot on here though .. There is a trade off.  Im ok with it and have learned to maneuver the power curve . BUT
I would have seriously considered the Black Widow if I had the choice last year. Now that im running the AP ill stick with it.
I would not lay any money on low end roll ons against the BW.  I think the same bike with that pipe would get me every time.
Now on up on the big scary end i would throw down some dough.  I dont get to use that much. the roads get short and the curves start coming quick.
So you really wanna think about where you want to "use" that usable throttle before you start pulling plastics. maybe this helps somehow.


 

horsenuts123

Member
Member
strum said:
Yall I havent been on here in a while so i hope you dont mind if i jump in on this discussion.
Ive been running the Area P and Steve's Area P flash on my 16 since late last fall. 
Im a bit of a power junkie so I absolutely love the big top end power I get and I certainly dig the unique sound the AP gives me.
Steve is spot on here though .. There is a trade off.  Im ok with it and have learned to maneuver the power curve . BUT
I would have seriously considered the Black Widow if I had the choice last year. Now that im running the AP ill stick with it.
I would not lay any money on low end roll ons against the BW.  I think the same bike with that pipe would get me every time.
Now on up on the big scary end i would throw down some dough.  I dont get to use that much. the roads get short and the curves start coming quick.
So you really wanna think about where you want to "use" that usable throttle before you start pulling plastics. maybe this helps somehow.

Thanks for jumping in.  It's good to hear from someone that's running the Area P!  It sounds like the BW would in fact be the better set up for me, but I do wonder how much improvement there will (if any?) in the top end power.  I grew up on 4 cylinder bikes and always expect that next level of power coming in around 7 - 8 grand, and on this machine that never happens.  :(
 

strum

Member
Member
Eric said:
strum said:
Yall I havent been on here in a while so i hope you dont mind if i jump in on this discussion.
Ive been running the Area P and Steve's Area P flash on my 16 since late last fall. 
Im a bit of a power junkie so I absolutely love the big top end power I get and I certainly dig the unique sound the AP gives me.
Steve is spot on here though .. There is a trade off.  Im ok with it and have learned to maneuver the power curve . BUT
I would have seriously considered the Black Widow if I had the choice last year. Now that im running the AP ill stick with it.
I would not lay any money on low end roll ons against the BW.  I think the same bike with that pipe would get me every time.
Now on up on the big scary end i would throw down some dough.  I dont get to use that much. the roads get short and the curves start coming quick.
So you really wanna think about where you want to "use" that usable throttle before you start pulling plastics. maybe this helps somehow.

Thanks for jumping in.  It's good to hear from someone that's running the Area P!  It sounds like the BW would in fact be the better set up for me, but I do wonder how much improvement there will (if any?) in the top end power.  I grew up on 4 cylinder bikes and always expect that next level of power coming in around 7 - 8 grand, and on this machine that never happens.  :(

For the biggest top end power.. 6 grand and up WOT I dont think youll beat the AP. Because I havent ran the BW I can only guess but I expect the top end power will increase.  I dont think youll go wrong with either pipe but you have to decide where you want the most "usable" throttle control. Steve has tried to explain this a million times and Im not sure most get it.
  In these N Ga mnts. we ride pretty dang hard sometimes. And not bragging but I dont get passed much. Now what changed with the AP is ,Im  running a lower gear than I used to so that im in the upper rpms and I use all the trottle I can. Meaning (in laymans terms)  I have to gear down and run the dog s*** out of it. lol. But that said itll do it. 
So im getting some really great power I just have to take it off the top so to speak instead of haveing it avalilble at the lower end . Hope this helps.
 

2andblue

Member
Member
Good summary STRUM - pretty much sums up my experience.  I would add, the C14 stock I found had more than ample torque down low and top end was, as I’ve stated several times -flat.  Given the fact the Full AreaP allows for better spooling I too find myself in a lower gear ready the opportunity to let her sprint.

Still wouldn’t mind some day doing a stock gear to gear roll on from lower RPM to see the difference.  Whatever difference down low there is - is dramatically evaporated above 5,000 or definitely 6,000.

Once over I’d do it again in a heartbeat, plenty torquey of an engine.
 

strum

Member
Member
2andBlue said:
Good summary STRUM - pretty much sums up my experience.  I would add, the C14 stock I found had more than ample torque down low and top end was, as I’ve stated several times -flat.  Given the fact the Full AreaP allows for better spooling I too find myself in a lower gear ready the opportunity to let her sprint.

Still wouldn’t mind some day doing a stock gear to gear roll on from lower RPM to see the difference.  Whatever difference down low there is - is dramatically evaporated above 5,000 or definitely 6,000.

Once over I’d do it again in a heartbeat, plenty torquey of an engine.

My buddy has an 08 and we have done roll-ons in every range.  Every time we are equal  until we get up into the upper range then I start pulling. Roll-ons are funny though just a tad early on either part and the results differ.
 

chrismpero

Member
Member
Wingedspirit said:
Anyone have  power data on the Black Widow yet?

I plan on going to the dyno this season, I want to block off or delete the PAIR 1st though.  Will report back with #'s. All bikes are different as well as dynos but going anyways.
 

gixerhp

Street Cruiser
Member
Industry Vendor
Christopher said:
Wingedspirit said:
Anyone have  power data on the Black Widow yet?

I plan on going to the dyno this season, I want to block off or delete the PAIR 1st though.  Will report back with #'s. All bikes are different as well as dynos but going anyways.
Where are you in New England?
 

chrismpero

Member
Member
Gixerhp said:
Christopher said:
Wingedspirit said:
Anyone have  power data on the Black Widow yet?

I plan on going to the dyno this season, I want to block off or delete the PAIR 1st though.  Will report back with #'s. All bikes are different as well as dynos but going anyways.
Where are you in New England?

Southeast Connecticut
 

gixerhp

Street Cruiser
Member
Industry Vendor
Christopher said:
Gixerhp said:
Christopher said:
Wingedspirit said:
Anyone have  power data on the Black Widow yet?

I plan on going to the dyno this season, I want to block off or delete the PAIR 1st though.  Will report back with #'s. All bikes are different as well as dynos but going anyways.
Where are you in New England?
There a few other members near you
Im not riding much this year cause major carpel tunnel problems with my hands.
Southeast Connecticut
 

chrismpero

Member
Member
Gixerhp said:
Christopher said:
Gixerhp said:
Christopher said:
Wingedspirit said:
Anyone have  power data on the Black Widow yet?

I plan on going to the dyno this season, I want to block off or delete the PAIR 1st though.  Will report back with #'s. All bikes are different as well as dynos but going anyways.
Where are you in New England?
There a few other members near you
Im not riding much this year cause major carpel tunnel problems with my hands.
Southeast Connecticut

Good to know! Ugh that sucks, I have it slightly myself. You're able to wrench ok?  I have it from years of wrenching and playing drums. Both hands...
 

maverick9611

“tryin not to get old”
Member
i just bought the black widow header direct from them. shipped same day. im using two brothers can/midpipe. i contacted black widow about adapters and quickly got a response. it bolts right up. black widow really wants to get into the game. i had a chat with sales and they are very positive about pr and supplying exhaust to the usa
 

2andblue

Member
Member
Look forward Mav to hearing how you like the headers, performance and fit/ form.

BW sounds like a great supplier.
 

connie_rider

Member
Member
Also waiting to see dyno numbers from a bike with the Black Widow Headers.

From what I can see, the BW's are approx. the same design as my 2006 ZX-14 headers.
,,(Same head pipe diameter's, same cylinder pairing, no Cat, same head tube lengths).
The biggest difference is my ZX-14 headers have dual mufflers and the Black Widows run a single muffler.

I think the Black Widow is the optimum system for the C-14's.
It won't make as much peak Power as the Area P or the Delkevic, but it will give you better low/mid power, and peak will be close.

If you want more Peak power, the Area P {or probably the Delkevic's} will give you that, but they won't give the same low/mid RPM torque.

NOTE:
I now have Steve's Mountain Runner premium in my bike. I like it!!
I previously had his Mountain Runner Flash in the bike and it did well, but {with these headers} the MR Premium is definitely better.

Ride safe Ted
 

chrismpero

Member
Member
I should have gotten base dyno #'s when my bike was stock. I never thought I would have gotten a flash let alone a full system. Every dyno is different too so the numbers are subjective. Right now as it sits it has the BW header, Akra pipe and the modified MRP flash for the BW headers. There is slight popping as I have yet to block the pair so that will def throw the af ratio off but I would think the HP and TQ #'s wouldn't be affected. I gotta do something with the pair sys when I do my valve adjustment before this season.
 

connie_rider

Member
Member
The actual numbers you get, aren't as important as the shape of the power/torque curve.
After you do the run, you can compare your curve with other base line curves to see improvement.
It will be evident.

ie; While dyno number's vary, the plots are consistent.

Ride safe, Ted
 

maverick9611

“tryin not to get old”
Member
what is the hot ticket on replacing headers. i have lower radiator mount removed but i still can’t get at 2 of the inside flange nuts. i decided to get the black widow muffler too.
 
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maverick9611

“tryin not to get old”
Member

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2andblue

Member
Member
did you guys remove the radiator?
need a tad more details
I did not remove radiator. To open up more space I used a bungee cord wrapped around the wheel to pull against ear on the lower radiator. This provided more than adequate space to get in to drop OEM and mount up the AreaP headers , expect to be the same for the BW headers.

Radiator removal is literally minutes to do BTW. Drain coolant from water pump plug, pop off hoses, remove the horn then the two mounting bolts atop the radiator.

Depending on maintenance record may be time to change coolant anyway.

When I installed AreaP the machine was nearly new so I did not want to dump and fill the radiator.

Try the bungee or drop the radiator.
 

chrismpero

Member
Member
I did not remove, just dropped it and let it hang by the hoses. I did get a zip tie and held it forward tho. FWIW, the left fan lead is short and came disconnected when I dropped it down. Luckily I found it and connected it when I was putting it back together. I looked for the R fan connector to no avail as its buried. Once I got it running I confirmed they both worked tho. Just some food for thought.
 

maverick9611

“tryin not to get old”
Member
i got the headers installed. it is indeed a tri y set up. cylinders 1/4 on one y 2/3 on the other y.
these join in for the 3rd y to a single. i sent ecu to ivan for full exhaust flash. he called me and said my slip on flash was good enough due to smaller header tubes. we are gonna hookup in the fall for full dyno. midrange punch is awesome. bike was a little louder but still not ear hurting. my two brothers bolted right up. midpipe black widow sent for the black widow muffler not correct. im working with them to fix this. i had one header leak. had to loosen it all up and wiggle and curse to seat header tube. i will keep you guys updated.
build quality and welds were top notch. this is a very nice set up
 

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maverick9611

“tryin not to get old”
Member
also all tubes clear nicely. come with o2 sensor ports with plugs on each y. also in box lots of stickers, exhaust joint compound and nice black widow keychain/necklace doo/ dad. i put my fob on it.
 
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connie_rider

Member
Member
Good info Maverick. I think Steve said the same about the flash {because of the size of the head Pipes}.
For comparison; Can you tell me the OD of the head pipes on your Black Widow system?

The OD of OEM head pipes is 1 3/8" {?? MM}.
The OD of the ZX-1000 Head pipes {that I have on my bike} are 1 1/2" (?? MM).
The OD of the head pipes on a Delkevic system are (I think) 1 9/16" (?? MM).
The OD of the head pipes on a Full Area P system are (I think) 1 5/8" (?? MM).
The OD of the head pipes on a Black Widow system are 1 ?/? ". (?? MM).

Ride safe, Ted
 
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Steve in sunny Fla

Iron Butt
Industry Vendor
Good info Maverick. I think Steve said the same about the flash {because of the size of the head Pipes}.
For comparison; Can you tell me the OD of the head pipes on your Black Widow system?

The OD of OEM head pipes is 1 3/8" {?? MM}.
The OD of the ZX-1000 Head pipes {that I have on my bike} are 1 1/2" (?? MM).
The OD of the head pipes on a Delkevic system are (I think) 1 9/16" (?? MM).
The OD of the head pipes on a Full Area P system are (I think) 1 5/8" (?? MM).
The OD of the head pipes on a Black Widow system are 1 ?/? ". (?? MM).

Ride safe, Ted


OD of the BW head pipes is 38mm, same as the original zx14.

OD of the AreaP is 44mm.

OD of stock is 35mm

OD of Delkevic is 42/43 mm (depends where you measure)
 

maverick9611

“tryin not to get old”
Member
Good info Maverick. I think Steve said the same about the flash {because of the size of the head Pipes}.
For comparison; Can you tell me the OD of the head pipes on your Black Widow system?

The OD of OEM head pipes is 1 3/8" {?? MM}.
The OD of the ZX-1000 Head pipes {that I have on my bike} are 1 1/2" (?? MM).
The OD of the head pipes on a Delkevic system are (I think) 1 9/16" (?? MM).
The OD of the head pipes on a Full Area P system are (I think) 1 5/8" (?? MM).
The OD of the head pipes on a Black Widow system are 1 ?/? ". (?? MM).

Ride safe, Ted
ok i will get 4 u when i get off from work
 

maverick9611

“tryin not to get old”
Member
OD of the BW head pipes is 38mm, same as the original zx14.

OD of the AreaP is 44mm.

OD of stock is 35mm

OD of Delkevic is 42/43 mm (depends where you measure)
thank you Steve for the information I guess I don't have to get the measurement now, u beat me to it🤗
 

maverick9611

“tryin not to get old”
Member
I'm taking moonshiner 28 up to the dragon late April riding all around there the next two days I'll let you guys know how it does. it better not rain this time either!
 

Steve in sunny Fla

Iron Butt
Industry Vendor
I
I'm taking moonshiner 28 up to the dragon late April riding all around there the next two days I'll let you guys know how it does. it better not rain this time either!
t's gonna pull like a train from 3500 up. IMO, the BW header is the best pipe diameter and layout available for this heavy sport tourer. To bad it took so long to come to market. I tried in 2016, but couldn't get areaP, delkevic or 2 brothers to build it. I never spoke with BW, but we must have been on the same wavelength, they released it in late 2019.
 

maverick9611

“tryin not to get old”
Member
I solved the riddle. the Black widow mid pipe is the correct one. I did not notice it until I had the bike on the kickstand and notice the two brothers had a center stand pad bracket to keep it from hitting the pipe. the Black widow has the same bracket. I was trying to get that bracket and mount it to the stock exhaust mounting bracket. this would make the pipe look like it was totally bent wrong. Black widow uses the muffler as its main midpipe support. the two brothers has an extra bracket for stock mounting. the reason I did not notice this is because I had the bike in the center stand while I was doing the header swap. I have the bike on the kickstand and noticed it. my bad
 

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connie_rider

Member
Member
Soooo; Correcting my note, and Putting it all together.
..The OD of the head pipes on a OEM C-14 system are,,,,,,,,(approx.) 1 3/8" {35 MM}. ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,(stock)
..The OD of the head pipes on a OEM ZX-14 system are,,,, (approx.) 1 1/2" (38 MM).,,,,,,,,,,,,{1/8" (3 MM) bigger than stock}
..The OD of the head pipes on a Black Widow system are (approx.) 1 1/2" (38 MM). ,,,,,,,,,,,,{1/8" (3 MM) bigger than stock}
..The OD of the head pipes on a OEM ZX-14R system are (approx.) 1 11/16" (42/43 MM). {5/16" (8 MM) bigger than stock}
..The OD of the head pipes on a Delkevic system are,,,,,,,,, (approx.) 1 11/16" (42/43 MM). {5/16" (8 MM) bigger than stock}
..The OD of the head pipes on a Full Area P system are,,,,, (approx.) 1 3/4" (44 MM). ,,,,,,,,,,,.{3/8" (9 MM) bigger than stock}

Ride safe, Ted
 
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2andblue

Member
Member
Very nice - looking forward to your ride reports. Ivan’s latest product for full AreaP is awesome, had stock product before also great so I looked forward to hearing the slip-on product.

How many miles on your machine? I see you mention a full dyno this fall, if you’re close to your valve adjustment I would suggest getting that in first.
 
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