• Do you want to post in the COG forum? Join the club (free limited trial membership available) or upgrade/renew your membership to enjoy full posting privileges.
    For simple instructions, click here
  • Can't post after logging to the forum for the first time... Try Again - If you can't post in the forum, sign out of both the membership site and the forum and log in again. Make sure your COG membership is active and your browser allow cookies. If you still can't post, contact the COG IT guy at IT@Concours.org.
  • IF YOU GET 404 ERROR: This may be due to using a link in a post from prior to the web migration. Content was brought over from the old forum as is, but the links may be in error. If the link contains "cog-online.org" it is an old link and will not work.

Aftermarket headers

maverick9611

“tryin not to get old”
Member
here is a look at ground level of bw tri y
 

Attachments

  • IMG_20210304_181027_674.jpg
    IMG_20210304_181027_674.jpg
    103.4 KB · Views: 74

maverick9611

“tryin not to get old”
Member
installed fuji lock nuts today. i was able to do 5 on side and 3 on the other. this little gearwrench is perfect.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_20210315_145248_091.jpg
    IMG_20210315_145248_091.jpg
    98.7 KB · Views: 41
  • IMG_20210315_145455_922.jpg
    IMG_20210315_145455_922.jpg
    88.3 KB · Views: 39
  • PXL_20210315_185938804.jpg
    PXL_20210315_185938804.jpg
    141.6 KB · Views: 40

maverick9611

“tryin not to get old”
Member
nope, i just snugged em down. i'm not fighting a torque wrench in that tight area. i didn't king kong tighten them down, just snug
 

maverick9611

“tryin not to get old”
Member
one thing i did notice on bw install. they want you to leave header flange loose and install everything and then tighten up flange, this gave me exhaust leaks. i had to strip it all back down and snug flange down to seal up leak. i did use their exhaust gasket. maybe i should have left stock in(they were a bear to get out)
food for thought
 

Bud

Member
Member
Here's Ted's bike with Area P mufflers.
 

Attachments

  • 20180916_131023.jpg
    20180916_131023.jpg
    193.6 KB · Views: 87
  • 20180916_131306.jpg
    20180916_131306.jpg
    196.6 KB · Views: 91

connie_rider

Member
Member
I went with the ZX-14 Headers and basically built my own mid pipes and mounts. I use Area P mufflers.
Lotsa work to get it the way I wanted it...
If you do the headers, a Flash is almost mandatory.
NOTE: Many have discovered that just doing a Flash and a slip-on will make a Concours a completely different bike.
Adding the headers will give you more peak power, maybe better power delivery, but you'll probably loose some low end torque. {Particularly if you opt for the big head pipe designs}

Ride safe, Ted
I asked Bud to post some old photo's for me as they had disappeared from the original posting.
We put them on this discussion as it seemed a good place. {Thank you Bud}

Hopefully the pictures will help you get an idea of what the different style mufflers look like.
Polished vs Black..
(In 1 photo you can see (on the table) the OEM 2006 ZX-14 header that I used, with the Muzzy Mid pipe's and mufflers).
I later removed the Muzzy's, and installed the Area P's. (Muzzy's were too loud for me and the bike loped at parking lot speeds).
NOTE: The mid pipe on the Area P's is smaller than the Muzzy Mid's, and that change "really" improved the loping problem and the low end power is much smoother.
I also changed from the Mountain Runner Flash to the Mountain Runner "Premium" Flash as Steve/I thought it would work better with this header.
"Wow" is an understatement!

PS: At the time, the only system that was available was the Area P Full system, and i wanted dual mufflers.
So, I choose to do my project. {ZX-14 header with Muzzy's}.

Having done all this work, I suspect the Black Widow system would be a very close match to this system, and it's a hell of a lot cheaper/easier to do!

Ride safe, Ted
 

Muguvian

Guest
Guest
Would you mind posting a close-up of the extension on the LH spigot of the ZX header, maybe some dimensions?
 

connie_rider

Member
Member
I no longer have an extension, extension dimensions, nor Muzzy Mufflers on the bike.
So, I can't help much. {Other than give you the OD Dimension of the ZX header Outlets (2" OD x 2" long)}

Info; The tube size of the Area P Mid's that I'm using now, are 2" OD. (the Muzzy Mid's were 2 1/4" OD)
The Area P Mid's are a different design than the Muzzy's (closer to the frame), and extensively modified for a tight fit.
So these dimension's won't help you much.
ie: I bought a used "right" Area P Mid and Muffler. I modified them to fit on the left side. (lotsa work)

In the image where you see of the headers on the bench, I had a valve installed on the left side and an extension installed on the right.
I have images of that *valve set up, but that idea **didn't work out.

**Didn't work: I was trying to use a valve on the left side.
The plan was; It was to be closed at low RPM's and opened at high RPM's for more torque control.
It didn't work out (Mechanical nightmare,) and the extended Muzzy Mid's drug in the twisties.
{Yes, I know I'm a bit Crazy}.

Ride safe, Ted
 
Last edited:

maverick9611

“tryin not to get old”
Member
bk update: rode from augusta to dragon. mpg was 38(i was fully loaded)
throttle response was crisp and very clean. this system works great.
on dragon. no problem, i tried multiple gear combos, plus gear higher and the black widow pulled clean. bw stainless muffler not overly loud either. im satisfied.
skyway/foothills today to beat tomorrows rain.
will do another mpg test unloaded
 

Attachments

  • 20210422_090323_HDR.jpg
    20210422_090323_HDR.jpg
    220.5 KB · Views: 34

maverick9611

“tryin not to get old”
Member
did 123 mile skyway loop. got gas in tellico plains. mpg worse at 35 mpg, ran skyway superhard on downhill side. roads dried up. power is crisp and clean. i'm impressed bk!😉
 

maverick9611

“tryin not to get old”
Member
afterthoughts.
kinda suprised mpg went down. performance dramatically went up though. i tried various gear combo's(easy to do on the dragon) my thought shedding almost 30 lbs of weight would help in mpg. but i was fully loaded too. something to ponder. this puts my fuel range at about 210 miles for a full tank. i fueled up at 196 and had .4 gallons left. i'm over 15000 on motor and doing valve check at end of season. maybe that was a factor.
thanx chris, steve for this thread and hope more chime in on different header combo's and what works. black widow is a win in my opinion.
suppose to get with ivan for full dyno at end of season.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_20210428_44456.jpg
    IMG_20210428_44456.jpg
    150.1 KB · Views: 24
Last edited:

2andblue

Member
Member
suppose to get with ivan for full dyno at end of season.
Guessing you are budgeting time for the valve check before any dyno work?

I went too far on my first valve check and there was a difference in performance afterward - everything was tight... Now adjusted properly, heck just turning the engine over manually there was a noticeable difference! Note; There were no zero clearance valves but plenty was getting out the exhaust before compression...
 

maverick9611

“tryin not to get old”
Member
Guessing you are budgeting time for the valve check before any dyno work?

I went too far on my first valve check and there was a difference in performance afterward - everything was tight... Now adjusted properly, heck just turning the engine over manually there was a noticeable difference! Note; There were no zero clearance valves but plenty was getting out the exhaust before compression...
still deciding. i should do it first but...
what was your mileage on first valve check?
 

connie_rider

Member
Member
Earlier, we were talking about the diameter of the head Pipes on several different header systems.
Below is a photo (That I stole).
It clearly shows the difference in head pipe size.

Area P vs Stock
The difference in Diameter is approx. 3/8" [27%] .
But, the difference in square area is far greater.
ie; Square area difference is approx. .94 In3 [64%] }

1622476250351.png


Ride safe, Ted
 
Last edited:

2andblue

Member
Member
Earlier, we were talking about the diameter of the head Pipes on several different header systems.
Below is a photo (That I stole).
It clearly shows the difference in head pipe size.

Area P vs Stock
The difference in Diameter is approx. 3/8" [27%] .
But, the difference in square area is far greater.
ie; Square area difference is approx. .94 In3 [64%] }

View attachment 29421

Ride safe, Ted
Absolutely Ted there is a significant size difference.

Recently Kerry Bryant (President from AreaP) and I had a conversation regarding design of AreaP Full Exhaust (FE) for the C-14 and I offered him there is a growing movement away from AreaP (FE) here at COG to BlackWidow (FE) due to the pipe diameter size and loss of performance.

Kerry is standup dude and noted he has not a large amount of familiarity with the BW product, does not underestimate them and is impressed at their price-point if their product is of equal quality to AreaP...

Kerry then dedicated some time and effort to correct, address / explain the perception of losses of torque are incorrect, and the benefits of the AreaP Full Exhaust with proper tuning are balanced and across the entire throttle range. Significant research went into the product design to not have a system that benefited only top end but throughout the entire RPM and throughout the entire throttle opening.

I am happy with the performance and feel what Kerry is advising is correct. Got nothing else though - no comparison, etc.
 

maverick9611

“tryin not to get old”
Member
Absolutely Ted there is a significant size difference.

Recently Kerry Bryant (President from AreaP) and I had a conversation regarding design of AreaP Full Exhaust (FE) for the C-14 and I offered him there is a growing movement away from AreaP (FE) here at COG to BlackWidow (FE) due to the pipe diameter size and loss of performance.

Kerry is standup dude and noted he has not a large amount of familiarity with the BW product, does not underestimate them and is impressed at their price-point if their product is of equal quality to AreaP...

Kerry then dedicated some time and effort to correct, address / explain the perception of losses of torque are incorrect, and the benefits of the AreaP Full Exhaust with proper tuning are balanced and across the entire throttle range. Significant research went into the product design to not have a system that benefited only top end but throughout the entire RPM and throughout the entire throttle opening.

I am happy with the performance and feel what Kerry is advising is correct. Got nothing else though - no comparison, etc.
i would have bought one but did not like their waiting list policy. plus black widow will sell you their header separately. that a plus in my book. area p is ultra high quality. i know this.
 
Last edited:

Steve in sunny Fla

Iron Butt
Industry Vendor
Absolutely Ted there is a significant size difference.

Recently Kerry Bryant (President from AreaP) and I had a conversation regarding design of AreaP Full Exhaust (FE) for the C-14 and I offered him there is a growing movement away from AreaP (FE) here at COG to BlackWidow (FE) due to the pipe diameter size and loss of performance.

Kerry is standup dude and noted he has not a large amount of familiarity with the BW product, does not underestimate them and is impressed at their price-point if their product is of equal quality to AreaP...

Kerry then dedicated some time and effort to correct, address / explain the perception of losses of torque are incorrect, and the benefits of the AreaP Full Exhaust with proper tuning are balanced and across the entire throttle range. Significant research went into the product design to not have a system that benefited only top end but throughout the entire RPM and throughout the entire throttle opening.

I am happy with the performance and feel what Kerry is advising is correct. Got nothing else though - no comparison, etc.

Should you ever get another opportunity to speak with Kerry, please remind him of our meeting to have a Shoodaben branded header built for my company. What I proposed is in design and pipe sizing what the Black Widow is. We even discussed cylinder pairing, IE sequentail vs non sequential in a triY configuration. Kerry stated that though he knows some drivers / riders could claim to notice a difference, he said he could never quantify it on a dyno. The reason I wanted to build this header was because the Area P header, while a great option, really is more for higher rpm and lots of throttle. It DOES give away light throttle torque... it can't help it with that much header volume. I was looking for a header that made better midrange but didn't lose any light throttle response, and also exited at the same place and diameter as stock so everyone with a slipon can just buy the header and use the midpipe they already owned.
The BW header is NOT in the quality bracket of the area p. Area P is using expanding primaries, and is using a very light and thin wall construction throughout. The BW header is being popular because of price point, and it works. Imagine... had it worked out, this pipe would have been available in 2016 instead of 2020, but Kerry was moving operations from Cali to FL and actually stopped production of his own concours pipes in the meanwhile, unavailable for probably 2 years or slightly more. Although Kerry expressed interest in the project, I always wondered if he saw it as competing with his Area p branded header. We specifically discussed marketing as a collaboration between Shoodaben Engineering and Area P which I felt would help both businesses.
I know what Concours owners want, but I'm not a pipe builder. As you can now see, it would have been a very popular option.
Steve
 

maverick9611

“tryin not to get old”
Member
Should you ever get another opportunity to speak with Kerry, please remind him of our meeting to have a Shoodaben branded header built for my company. What I proposed is in design and pipe sizing what the Black Widow is. We even discussed cylinder pairing, IE sequentail vs non sequential in a triY configuration. Kerry stated that though he knows some drivers / riders could claim to notice a difference, he said he could never quantify it on a dyno. The reason I wanted to build this header was because the Area P header, while a great option, really is more for higher rpm and lots of throttle. It DOES give away light throttle torque... it can't help it with that much header volume. I was looking for a header that made better midrange but didn't lose any light throttle response, and also exited at the same place and diameter as stock so everyone with a slipon can just buy the header and use the midpipe they already owned.
The BW header is NOT in the quality bracket of the area p. Area P is using expanding primaries, and is using a very light and thin wall construction throughout. The BW header is being popular because of price point, and it works. Imagine... had it worked out, this pipe would have been available in 2016 instead of 2020, but Kerry was moving operations from Cali to FL and actually stopped production of his own concours pipes in the meanwhile, unavailable for probably 2 years or slightly more. Although Kerry expressed interest in the project, I always wondered if he saw it as competing with his Area p branded header. We specifically discussed marketing as a collaboration between Shoodaben Engineering and Area P which I felt would help both businesses.
I know what Concours owners want, but I'm not a pipe builder. As you can now see, it would have been a very popular option.
Steve
da, tri y🤘🏻
 

Attachments

  • 8C00DD5B-F24E-4817-BFFC-361DD497393B.jpeg
    8C00DD5B-F24E-4817-BFFC-361DD497393B.jpeg
    155.5 KB · Views: 29

connie_rider

Member
Member
Like 2andblue, I have nothing to compare with.
I've never been with anyone that had an Area P system on their bike.
I fully expect a bike with Full Area P system to ride away from me in a Roll-on test..
(See Roll-On discussion)
I've heard of Area P's quality and what others say about them.
Bottom line; I don't know of anything negative about Area P's system.

I'm not a tuner. I feel that a bike tune, should be a match to a riders style.
In the twisties, I am not a high RPM/WOT/Racer. I'm a low RPM/Partial throttle/Smooth rider.
ie; I prefer a higher gear as I go thru the turn.
,,,,,,,I rely on torque, not high RPM HP to pull me thru.
,,,,,, I prefer to smooth thru a turn, not blast thru...
And so, I selected a header that {I feel} delivers more of what I want.

My Research/Reasoning;
I talked to several Header manufacturers, I talked a lot with Steve, a bit with Ivan, and I've done what study I could.
I talked to many others that have headers.
Lastly; I looked at my bank account.... {gloom}
So, I built my own system; Using a OEM 2006 ZX-1400 header, and 2 Area P Mufflers.
Lots of work!!

NOTE: At that time, Black Widow and Delkavic systems were not offered, and Full Area P systems were out of stock.

Ride safe, Ted
 
Last edited:

maverick9611

“tryin not to get old”
Member
i’m a aggressive full hit off the corners twisties rider. i have riden just bout every the ga,nc,tn can offer. i’ve rode stock header w/slip on, rode bw with full header/slip on. this bw tube dia. is perfect for the mountains. don’t care bout top speed (try doing that on the dragon)i want full tilt low end/mid-range power.
 

Attachments

  • 2C52A2E9-D70B-4435-AA86-03B665669A66.png
    2C52A2E9-D70B-4435-AA86-03B665669A66.png
    1 MB · Views: 20

connie_rider

Member
Member
Breaking this out;

I've been looking at Dyno plots of the Area P & (others).
I know that Dyno plots are done at WOT and do not reflect how a header works at partial throttle, but their the only thing we can actually compare.

So, I compared the plots, and I think I see:
Area P headers "start" making more torque after approx. 3200 RPM, and they deliver more peak HP. (y)

But: a stock header, and my (OEM ZX-14 header) make more/smother torque below 3200 RPM's. :sneaky:
,,,,,,,, (Area P has a serious torque "hick-up" at about 4500-5200 RPM.) 🤫
,,,,,,,, At that time, my (OEM ZX-14 header) seems to deliver slightly more torque. :)
,,,,,,,, and my (OEM ZX-14 header) has a smoother torque curve thru-out the plot. :cool:
,,,,,,, but, it makes less peak HP.. 😮
,,,,,,, In fact, after 6000 RPM's the Area P torque/power curve jumps away.. o_O

Ride safe, Ted
 
Last edited:

maverick9611

“tryin not to get old”
Member
Breaking this out;

I've been looking at Dyno plots of the Area P & (others).
I know that Dyno plots are done at WOT and do not reflect how a header works at partial throttle, but their the only thing we can actually compare.

So, I compared the plots, and I think I see:
Area P headers "start" making more torque after approx. 3200 RPM.
,,,,,,,,,,,and they deliver more peak HP. (y)

But: a stock header, and my (OEM ZX-14 header) make more/smother torque below 3200 RPM's. :sneaky:
,,,,,,,, (Area P has a serious torque "hick-up" at about 4500-5200 RPM.) 🤫
,,,,,,,, At that time, my (OEM ZX-14 header) seems to deliver slightly more torque. :)
,,,,,,,, and my (OEM ZX-14 header) has a smoother torque curve thru-out the plot. :cool:
,,,,,,, but, it makes less peak HP.. 😮
,,,,,,, In fact, after 6000 RPM's the Area P torque/power curve jumps away.. o_O

Ride safe, Ted
i wonder how you use that at the dragon?
 

2andblue

Member
Member
i wonder how you use that at the dragon?
Stay in a lower gear for the ultimate in stronger launching and braking. Watch out for the wheelie!

Not that all can be transferred from track days to the real world - I believe a consistent track day teaching is higher rpm riding for the fullest in controlled engine breaking and power band use.

Wayne
 

connie_rider

Member
Member
I agree about the Track days/Rider Training.
I enjoyed the Training Days I've gone to and learned a lot..

We ride a different riding style.
Everyone has their own way to use the power the bike produces.
I prefer smooth, and use torque to accomplish that.
Others like to use a lower gear and work the bike as Maverick / 2andblue describe.
Nothing wrong with their approach. Just not the same method I use in the twisties.
Because of the style I use, I installed headers that (I think) give me optimum low/mid torque.
I know I'm not at the same peak as the Area P, but feel my header set up is the best option for me.

Style; see below;

Ride safe, Ted
 
Last edited:

kzz1king

Member
Member
We average 37MPG with the mix of spirited riding and more reasonable riding.

We can and have easily average 51-53 MPG if we keep to back HWY’s and low 60’s MPH.

Full AreaP and associated tuning.

I just can’t stop twisting the throttle though.
That's about what I get with a Delc can and MRP flash. Problem is I seldom ride 60. More like 75/80 and wind. Still average 36 .
 

connie_rider

Member
Member
Like 2andblue, I have nothing to compare with.
I've never been with anyone that had an Area P system on their bike.
I fully expect a bike with Full Area P system to ride away from me in a Roll-on test..
(See Roll-On discussion)
I've heard of Area P's quality and what others say about them.
Bottom line; I don't know of anything negative about Area P's system.

I'm not a tuner. I feel that a bike tune, should be a match to a riders style.
In the twisties, I am not a high RPM/WOT/Racer. I'm a low RPM/Partial throttle/Smooth rider.
ie; I prefer a higher gear as I go thru the turn.
,,,,,,,I rely on torque, not high RPM HP to pull me thru.
,,,,,, I prefer to smooth thru a turn, not blast thru...
And so, I selected a header that {I feel} delivers more of what I want.

My Research/Reasoning;
I talked to several Header manufacturers, I talked a lot with Steve, a bit with Ivan, and I've done what study I could.
I talked to many others that have headers.
Lastly; I looked at my bank account.... {gloom}
So, I built my own system; Using a OEM 2006 ZX-1400 header, and 2 Area P Mufflers.
Lots of work!!

NOTE: At that time, Black Widow and Delkavic systems were not offered, and Full Area P systems were out of stock.

Ride safe, Ted
Update; At the national I was finally able to compare the different styles of headers. (Small tube vs big tube header)
Results are here. "They did not come out as we expected..." (Reply #66)

Ride safe, Ted
 

maverick9611

“tryin not to get old”
Member
Wow! Which flash? Best I can muster is 41.6 as indicated on the cluster. 2k since I reset everything.
ivans, but when i first installed the bw header my mileage was crappy in april at deals gap. maybe different riding conditions/throttle hits? impossible to really hit it superhard in blue ridge area. theres just too many cars. i will update again as we leave maggie valley and head for home.
 

connie_rider

Member
Member
On my bike, I never reset the MPG reading. (so I can see the running average)
As most of you know, I trailer to the events and soooo, most of my miles are at the events. ie; mostly twisties
Mine stays at about 44 mpg. {I have Steve's Mountain Runner Premium Flash and ZX-14 headers}

Ride safe, Ted
 

maverick9611

“tryin not to get old”
Member
On my bike, I never reset the MPG reading. (so I can see the running average)
As most of you know, I trailer to the events and soooo, most of my miles are at the events. ie; mostly twisties
Mine stays at about 44 mpg. {I have Steve's Mountain Runner Premium Flash and ZX-14 headers}

Ride safe, Ted
good deal. filling up shortly. been raining the whole day
 

chrismpero

Member
Member
On my bike, I never reset the MPG reading. (so I can see the running average)
As most of you know, I trailer to the events and soooo, most of my miles are at the events. ie; mostly twisties
Mine stays at about 44 mpg. {I have Steve's Mountain Runner Premium Flash and ZX-14 headers}

Ride safe, Ted
I didn't reset it per se, i checked the battery terminals for tightness and obviously had to disconnect the grounds to get there. That reset everything
 

connie_rider

Member
Member
Just saw this. I agree. Mine was reset when the battery was changed, or when the Flash was installed.
Just saying that mine hasn't been changed since then. ie; I don't reset and check mileage on a day ride.

Ride safe, Ted
 
Top